The boss being a gigantic Winter Epohh Researcher. As you lay waste to the Epohh Horde, she can occasionally cry out things like, "Didn't you want an Epohh friend?"
the question here is not whether the federation should have a cloak. my shiny invisible dreadnought cruiser is proof enough that the treaty is off/nobody cares what the pres said and the feds now have cloak. the question is why shouldn't we put cloak on all our ships. there is no technical reason we cant aside from the immense whining it would cause among the strict traditionalists.
lets start with the enterprise incident itself, a federation mission whos pirmary objective was to steal a cloaking device for the express purpose of reverse engineering and eventually manufacturing and employing them. (in many ways the after math of the events in balance of terror) this leads to, presumably, many decades of fed cloak use and later, to the treaty of allgeron, forbidding further fed cloak use. the RSE is at war with the federation now, so the treaty is off, seeing as it
now, just for fun a short list of federation cloaking use
The Original Series: the Enterprise incident
Next generation: Pegasus, All good things (alternate timeline aside, the political situation is near identical, and the ship class now exists in game)
DS9: most episodes with the defiant
Voyager: Admiral Janeway's shuttle (everyone forgets this one)
that stupid looking hologram ship in insurrection.
the question here is not whether the federation should have a cloak. my shiny invisible dreadnought cruiser is proof enough that the treaty is off/nobody cares what the pres said and the feds now have cloak. the question is why shouldn't we put cloak on all our ships. there is no technical reason we cant aside from the immense whining it would cause among the strict traditionalists.
lets start with the enterprise incident itself, a federation mission whos pirmary objective was to steal a cloaking device for the express purpose of reverse engineering and eventually manufacturing and employing them. (in many ways the after math of the events in balance of terror) this leads to, presumably, many decades of fed cloak use and later, to the treaty of allgeron, forbidding further fed cloak use. the RSE/its tal shi ar successor state is at war with the federation now, so the treaty is off, seeing as we are already fighting the conflict it was preventing anyway.
now, just for fun a short list of federation cloaking use in every series.
The Original Series: the Enterprise incident
Next generation: Pegasus, All good things (alternate timeline aside, the political situation is near identical, and the ship class now exists in game)
DS9: most episodes with the defiant
Voyager: Admiral Janeway's shuttle (everyone forgets this one)
that stupid looking hologram ship in insurrection.
the question here is not whether the federation should have a cloak. my shiny invisible dreadnought cruiser is proof enough that the treaty is off/nobody cares what the pres said and the feds now have cloak. the question is why shouldn't we put cloak on all our ships. there is no technical reason we cant aside from the immense whining it would cause among the strict traditionalists.
lets start with the enterprise incident itself, a federation mission whos pirmary objective was to steal a cloaking device for the express purpose of reverse engineering and eventually manufacturing and employing them. (in many ways the after math of the events in balance of terror) this leads to, presumably, many decades of fed cloak use and later, to the treaty of allgeron, forbidding further fed cloak use. the RSE/its tal shi ar successor state is at war with the federation now, so the treaty is off, seeing as we are already fighting the conflict it was preventing anyway.
now, just for fun a short list of federation cloaking use in every series.
The Original Series: the Enterprise incident
Next generation: Pegasus, All good things (alternate timeline aside, the political situation is near identical, and the ship class now exists in game)
DS9: most episodes with the defiant
Voyager: Admiral Janeway's shuttle (everyone forgets this one)
that stupid looking hologram ship in insurrection.
And the reason cloaks are a hot topic right now is because of the Romulans -- Romulans and KDF ships get their cloaks at no cost, while Feds have to use up a console slot. This is simply an outdated balance practice from before Romulans were in the game, and some parity between all three factions re:cloaks isn't a bad thing (especially if Cryptic ever wants a balanced PVP, but that's another conversation).
Ok, making a reply in this thread to fix the misinformation in this part of your post.
Now, while obviously Romulans have really flipped the table, and we could argue whether or not Romulans truly do have any kind of cost to their cloak, that doesn't apply to Klingons.
Battlecruisers: Now on the whole, yes, KDF BCs don't seem to pay anything for their basic cloak they all have. Heck the whole Avenger/Mogh fiasco a few months ago brought that to the light quite a bit. BUT there is one big exception to that: The Bortasqu'. That ship, it not only has a 1.00 shield modifer (compared to the 1.15 of the Odyssey), it's basic cloak is also WEAKER than other cloaks in the game so it is detected more easily (the only other ships I believe that have this are the Tal Shiar ships). So the Bortas at the very least does have a (rather big IMO) cost for it's cloak, even if the other BCs do not.
Raptors: In general, compared to Starfleet Escorts, Raptors have lower shield mods, but a bit higher hull. So they do pay for it in shield modifier at least.
Birds of Prey: They have some of the lowest base hull and shield modifiers in the game over all, but do have battle cloaks as well. There are no Starfleet ships that can roughly equal a BoP (unless you count the Aquarius) in terms of stats, and obviously Starfleet directly doesn't have any ships with battle cloak (ignoring Romulans for the moment).
Again, we can argue as to whether or not Romulans truly give up anything for their battle cloaks, but a good majority of KDF ships that can cloak usually do give something up at least.
That said, I do agree that the 'balancing' for Federation and Klingon ships doesn't really hold as much weight anymore. I do think that something should be given up for cloak, but that balance should be somewhat more uniform for at least Feds and KDF.
For example, if I had the power, this is what I would do for Fed and KDF cloaks:
Defiant: Innate cloak, no change
Fleet Defiant: Innate cloak, but keeps it's 0.90 shield modifier
Gal-X: Innate cloak, no change
Fleet Gal-X: Innate cloak, no change
Avenger: Innate cloak, loses a bit of turn rate
Fleet Avenger: Innate cloak, loses a bit of turn rate
Bortas: Cloak bumped up to match the stealth rating of other basic cloaks, and given at least a 1.05 to 1.1 shield modifier
All non-fleet Raptors: No change
Fleet Raptors: Given no higher than 0.90 shield modifier
All other KDF battlecruisers: Shield modifier bumped down by about 0.05 each (and of course adjust fleet versions accordingly)
BoPs: Bump the base stealth value of their battle cloaks by a rather good amount, but no other changes
I think that would appease most, while not really taking away anything.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
No, actually, 2392 was an election year. Aennik Okeg replaced Nanietta Bacco. It would appear Okeg loosened the restriction a little bit.
That's because thratch1 has the date wrong. Volume 16 would be 2395ish, given that the thing ends with Volume 29, which would be 2408. One of the chapters dealing with the repercussions of the Kelso incident states that "tensions between the Federation, Romulans and Klingons were at their highest point since the destruction of the Romulan homeworld in 2387." That destruction happened 8 volumes earlier, in case you were keeping score at home, in Volume 8.
Aside from that, the cloak console text is a handwave to explain why the Federation has some ships that can cloak now. If they are no longer following the treaty, then all ships should have cloak, or at least all new ships from the point that the Defiant Retrofit or Galaxy-X came in onward. Vesta, Atrox, Armitage, Regent perhaps. That console should say, "Because some fans just have to have cloaking Defiants and Galaxy-Xs, the Federation authorized this console." I personally think that it's a storytelling mistake, and probably a gameplay mistake, to have even these ships cloaking, much less the Avenger.
Oh, and for the "Romulan Star Empire is dead and gone because the only person who could possibly do anything in the government has disappeared" argument, I give you the redone Borg/Undine missions. RSE ship, presumably conducting Tal Shiar experiments, with a captain saying that what she's doing is vital to the Star Empire. This is after Sela's disappearance, for certain, but definitely before Sphere of Influence, at the very least. It's a pretty narrow window.
"But they weren't invited to the Borg conference or the anti-Undine pep rally in the current FE", you say? Of course not, nobody trusted them much to begin with, and now it's been revealed that the leadership of the real power behind the throne were Iconian collaborators.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
They have said otherwise. It's in the game lore. The Federation is going to uphold the treaty no matter what the state of the Romulan empire is.
Also, seriously, what is the obsession with cloaks anyway? They can be fun, and I enjoy it on my Romulan and Klingon, but it's certainly not something that is so integral to gameplay that the Federation needs it outside of how they can get it now.
The funny thing about it is, since the Okeg's little damage control move after the Kelso incident in 2395, no less than five different cloak capable classes came online in the Fleet. This started after the collapse of the Khitomer Accords, with the Galaxy-X and Gallant entering service in 2399. Prior to this, only the Defiant (and possibly the Vigilant, if it predates the post Khitomer era) was cloak capable in service.
Since 2399, we got the Sao Paulo, Venture-X, and (in 2409) the Avenger.
The fact of the matter is that when war was on the horizon with the Klingon Empire, the Federation reversed it's policy of cloaking technology. All the facts point to this.
There is no reason whatsoever for the Federation to deploy cloak capable ships in the future, since they have pretty much trashed the Treaty of Algeron back in 2399.
The one thing I will agree with the KDF fanbois on is the issue of battle cloaks. General battle cloak usage should remain a Romulan perk. On the other hand, I don't believe the KDF faction's players should have access to them either. Even for Birds of Prey.
The one thing I will agree with the KDF fanbois on is the issue of battle cloaks. General battle cloak usage should remain a Romulan perk. On the other hand, I don't believe the KDF faction's players should have access to them either. Even for Birds of Prey.
So the Romulans are fine with being battlecloak-exclusive (because of Fed-Roms,no doubt), the Federation needs innate cloaks on all ships, while the KDF gets battlecloaks pulled out of the BoPs. LMAO!!! Nice to know Fed. fans' priorities as well as frustrations still lay in the same place they were 4 years ago.
How about a more sensible solution (as if one's really needed :rolleyes:, but still) - Romulans keep their bag of tricks with singularities and battlecloak, the KDF keeps the cloaking stuff as it is, and Fed. ships get somekind of an innate stealth detection bonus (Incomming PvP rage in 3...2...1....). Will this stop all the whining?
You know, keep the factions different? Diversity? Unique gameplay? Fun?
I am a fed player... I will admit to haveing alot of fun with my rommie alt... but you know what? Even HE rarely cloaks in battle because in truth the amount of dmg he takes while cloaking as the sheilds go down from shots that were already fired, those still hit you know, force me to than sometimes stay cloaked longer than I would like OR force me to decloak faster then I would like by then using repair skills that decloak me anyway.
Now to the Karret, I know my spelling sucks, debate. I dislike it there myself BUT even WITHOUT a cloak solo in my tac Oddy I have NO problems dealing with cloaking klinks. One time I had a KDF allied rommie in a scimi decloak starboard and let me have it... well he tried.. see he already did it to 2 fleetmates who were in the zone so I was actually waiting for him. Although I was alone, and he HAD to have been undergeared cuz let's face it I should have still died even if I was stupid enough to be waiting for him and hunting him. I hit my EM got around on his port and tractored and broadsided him to death before he had a chance to get away. BFAW and EM along with BOFF shield skills will work when the klink lil work packs show up and if you use torps/mines it could get ugly for them if you know what you are doing and are a very good cruiser captain. Now granted these manuvers don't work for sci ships or escorts, but I am sure that those captains can come on here and tell you how they deal with them.
Bottom line is this...
We're Feds... we don't NEED cloaks to win.. and frankly.. I don't want them either. I have Z-Store Avenger as a main ship on one alt and I with 6 characters could grind in about a month for a defient or G-X that has a cloak and put it on the Avenger.. but why? Our ships are build around no cloaks for a reason.. with some anti-cloak skills you could EASILY detect and destory cloaked ships before they can hit you so why in the world would you want to make yourself that vaunable to attack just at the CHANCE for a surprise attack? In my opinion as a fed it is NOT worth it.
You know, keep the factions different? Diversity? Unique gameplay? Fun?
/10char/thread
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
You guys LOL!
lets start with the enterprise incident itself, a federation mission whos pirmary objective was to steal a cloaking device for the express purpose of reverse engineering and eventually manufacturing and employing them. (in many ways the after math of the events in balance of terror) this leads to, presumably, many decades of fed cloak use and later, to the treaty of allgeron, forbidding further fed cloak use. the RSE is at war with the federation now, so the treaty is off, seeing as it
now, just for fun a short list of federation cloaking use
The Original Series: the Enterprise incident
Next generation: Pegasus, All good things (alternate timeline aside, the political situation is near identical, and the ship class now exists in game)
DS9: most episodes with the defiant
Voyager: Admiral Janeway's shuttle (everyone forgets this one)
that stupid looking hologram ship in insurrection.
lets start with the enterprise incident itself, a federation mission whos pirmary objective was to steal a cloaking device for the express purpose of reverse engineering and eventually manufacturing and employing them. (in many ways the after math of the events in balance of terror) this leads to, presumably, many decades of fed cloak use and later, to the treaty of allgeron, forbidding further fed cloak use. the RSE/its tal shi ar successor state is at war with the federation now, so the treaty is off, seeing as we are already fighting the conflict it was preventing anyway.
now, just for fun a short list of federation cloaking use in every series.
The Original Series: the Enterprise incident
Next generation: Pegasus, All good things (alternate timeline aside, the political situation is near identical, and the ship class now exists in game)
DS9: most episodes with the defiant
Voyager: Admiral Janeway's shuttle (everyone forgets this one)
that stupid looking hologram ship in insurrection.
you Forgot Pegaus
Ok, making a reply in this thread to fix the misinformation in this part of your post.
Now, while obviously Romulans have really flipped the table, and we could argue whether or not Romulans truly do have any kind of cost to their cloak, that doesn't apply to Klingons.
Battlecruisers: Now on the whole, yes, KDF BCs don't seem to pay anything for their basic cloak they all have. Heck the whole Avenger/Mogh fiasco a few months ago brought that to the light quite a bit. BUT there is one big exception to that: The Bortasqu'. That ship, it not only has a 1.00 shield modifer (compared to the 1.15 of the Odyssey), it's basic cloak is also WEAKER than other cloaks in the game so it is detected more easily (the only other ships I believe that have this are the Tal Shiar ships). So the Bortas at the very least does have a (rather big IMO) cost for it's cloak, even if the other BCs do not.
Raptors: In general, compared to Starfleet Escorts, Raptors have lower shield mods, but a bit higher hull. So they do pay for it in shield modifier at least.
Birds of Prey: They have some of the lowest base hull and shield modifiers in the game over all, but do have battle cloaks as well. There are no Starfleet ships that can roughly equal a BoP (unless you count the Aquarius) in terms of stats, and obviously Starfleet directly doesn't have any ships with battle cloak (ignoring Romulans for the moment).
Again, we can argue as to whether or not Romulans truly give up anything for their battle cloaks, but a good majority of KDF ships that can cloak usually do give something up at least.
That said, I do agree that the 'balancing' for Federation and Klingon ships doesn't really hold as much weight anymore. I do think that something should be given up for cloak, but that balance should be somewhat more uniform for at least Feds and KDF.
For example, if I had the power, this is what I would do for Fed and KDF cloaks:
Defiant: Innate cloak, no change
Fleet Defiant: Innate cloak, but keeps it's 0.90 shield modifier
Gal-X: Innate cloak, no change
Fleet Gal-X: Innate cloak, no change
Avenger: Innate cloak, loses a bit of turn rate
Fleet Avenger: Innate cloak, loses a bit of turn rate
Bortas: Cloak bumped up to match the stealth rating of other basic cloaks, and given at least a 1.05 to 1.1 shield modifier
All non-fleet Raptors: No change
Fleet Raptors: Given no higher than 0.90 shield modifier
All other KDF battlecruisers: Shield modifier bumped down by about 0.05 each (and of course adjust fleet versions accordingly)
BoPs: Bump the base stealth value of their battle cloaks by a rather good amount, but no other changes
I think that would appease most, while not really taking away anything.
That's because thratch1 has the date wrong. Volume 16 would be 2395ish, given that the thing ends with Volume 29, which would be 2408. One of the chapters dealing with the repercussions of the Kelso incident states that "tensions between the Federation, Romulans and Klingons were at their highest point since the destruction of the Romulan homeworld in 2387." That destruction happened 8 volumes earlier, in case you were keeping score at home, in Volume 8.
Aside from that, the cloak console text is a handwave to explain why the Federation has some ships that can cloak now. If they are no longer following the treaty, then all ships should have cloak, or at least all new ships from the point that the Defiant Retrofit or Galaxy-X came in onward. Vesta, Atrox, Armitage, Regent perhaps. That console should say, "Because some fans just have to have cloaking Defiants and Galaxy-Xs, the Federation authorized this console." I personally think that it's a storytelling mistake, and probably a gameplay mistake, to have even these ships cloaking, much less the Avenger.
Oh, and for the "Romulan Star Empire is dead and gone because the only person who could possibly do anything in the government has disappeared" argument, I give you the redone Borg/Undine missions. RSE ship, presumably conducting Tal Shiar experiments, with a captain saying that what she's doing is vital to the Star Empire. This is after Sela's disappearance, for certain, but definitely before Sphere of Influence, at the very least. It's a pretty narrow window.
"But they weren't invited to the Borg conference or the anti-Undine pep rally in the current FE", you say? Of course not, nobody trusted them much to begin with, and now it's been revealed that the leadership of the real power behind the throne were Iconian collaborators.
The funny thing about it is, since the Okeg's little damage control move after the Kelso incident in 2395, no less than five different cloak capable classes came online in the Fleet. This started after the collapse of the Khitomer Accords, with the Galaxy-X and Gallant entering service in 2399. Prior to this, only the Defiant (and possibly the Vigilant, if it predates the post Khitomer era) was cloak capable in service.
Since 2399, we got the Sao Paulo, Venture-X, and (in 2409) the Avenger.
The fact of the matter is that when war was on the horizon with the Klingon Empire, the Federation reversed it's policy of cloaking technology. All the facts point to this.
There is no reason whatsoever for the Federation to deploy cloak capable ships in the future, since they have pretty much trashed the Treaty of Algeron back in 2399.
The one thing I will agree with the KDF fanbois on is the issue of battle cloaks. General battle cloak usage should remain a Romulan perk. On the other hand, I don't believe the KDF faction's players should have access to them either. Even for Birds of Prey.
Hahahahh :P
So the Romulans are fine with being battlecloak-exclusive (because of Fed-Roms,no doubt), the Federation needs innate cloaks on all ships, while the KDF gets battlecloaks pulled out of the BoPs. LMAO!!!
How about a more sensible solution (as if one's really needed :rolleyes:, but still) - Romulans keep their bag of tricks with singularities and battlecloak, the KDF keeps the cloaking stuff as it is, and Fed. ships get somekind of an innate stealth detection bonus (Incomming PvP rage in 3...2...1....
You know, keep the factions different? Diversity? Unique gameplay? Fun?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Now to the Karret, I know my spelling sucks, debate. I dislike it there myself BUT even WITHOUT a cloak solo in my tac Oddy I have NO problems dealing with cloaking klinks. One time I had a KDF allied rommie in a scimi decloak starboard and let me have it... well he tried.. see he already did it to 2 fleetmates who were in the zone so I was actually waiting for him. Although I was alone, and he HAD to have been undergeared cuz let's face it I should have still died even if I was stupid enough to be waiting for him and hunting him. I hit my EM got around on his port and tractored and broadsided him to death before he had a chance to get away. BFAW and EM along with BOFF shield skills will work when the klink lil work packs show up and if you use torps/mines it could get ugly for them if you know what you are doing and are a very good cruiser captain. Now granted these manuvers don't work for sci ships or escorts, but I am sure that those captains can come on here and tell you how they deal with them.
Bottom line is this...
We're Feds... we don't NEED cloaks to win.. and frankly.. I don't want them either. I have Z-Store Avenger as a main ship on one alt and I with 6 characters could grind in about a month for a defient or G-X that has a cloak and put it on the Avenger.. but why? Our ships are build around no cloaks for a reason.. with some anti-cloak skills you could EASILY detect and destory cloaked ships before they can hit you so why in the world would you want to make yourself that vaunable to attack just at the CHANCE for a surprise attack? In my opinion as a fed it is NOT worth it.
/10char/thread
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