Yeah, me too. I thought we were ******** about why we didn't like VOY, not that it isn't canon. The issue is that it IS canon but probably shouldn't be.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
Oh, I'm sorry... I thought this was the STAR TREK ONLINE general discussion forum, not the General Star Trek forum... You know, where Star Trek Online is discussed? I thought this was going to evolve into another "I hate VOY so I don't want to see anything from it in STO" threads... My bad...
Carry on... Nothing to see here folks...
I bet you didn get your morning coffe (or milk... whatever) today...
You seem kinda touchy... He was asking a question...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I thought this was going to evolve into another "I hate VOY so I don't want to see anything from it in STO" threads
You were the one to bring it up...just saying.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
Voyager was the longest running and had high ratings despite being on solely UPN network that reached few people. That's tv rating, not trek nerd opinion ranking. They also had the highest dvd sales. Startrek.com poll showed them to be 2nd most popular trek series. Then the trek nerds made a stink online and declared the poll invalid because ppl who voted aren't all certifiable trek nerds.:rolleyes:
It's only the very few, very hardcore [and very vocal] trek nerds hating Voyager. Lucky, they don't matter. It's fairly popular among other populations, including mainstream scifi fans in general.;)
I suppose I can better relate to SG:U than SG1 and SGA in comparison. Being Military working with civilians myself, I know the kind of friction that appears between the two factions.
Add daily life and death struggle into a already tense situation, I don't think the SG:U plot is that unbeliveable.
I think some people didn't really get the message that these were really not the right people in the right place. (Despite that being said multiple times in the recaps).
Too often I heart critique like "people like that would never be able to serve in the military/that position". But first:
Soldiers are ordinary people with flaws, and real world military doesn't generally make that deep psych evals and background checks. They would definitely serve. THe ymight not be in the position they were, but then, they never were intended to.
And if you require them to work with civilians that definitely weren't supposed to be aboard that ship...
It's also something that was levelled against BSG - and those were also not the people in the right spot. THey were never intended as safeguardians of the remnant of the human fleet. They were on an old ship that was to be mothballed. They weren't the best of the best. They were just good enough and reliable enough to not be thrown out of the military...
And Voyager had the same potential. Sure, there were plenty Starfleet officers and we know those are basically superhuman idealists - but they also had Maquis members and convicts. BUt those immediately put on the Starfleet Uniform and acted like they were full-time Starfleet members.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
What do you expect from a thread started in the wrong discussion area? Never worry, it will be moved soon enough.
It wasn't so much the area--it was the sudden Voyager fanboy post of admitted premature--ness.
I hope that made sense.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
Voyager was the longest running and had high ratings despite being on solely UPN network that reached few people. That's tv rating, not trek nerd opinion ranking. They also had the highest dvd sales. Startrek.com poll showed them to be 2nd most popular trek series. Then the trek nerds made a stink online and declared the poll invalid because ppl who voted aren't all certifiable trek nerds.:rolleyes:
1) I'm think many (Most? All?) people would agree that mass popularity does not equal quality.
2) I emphatically do not agree with you regarding the quality of the show, but I respect you nonetheless. Let's keep some perspective here - it's just a TV show.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
the one thing i hated about voyager is it had potential to be different to explore different aspects of trek. it also should of been serial instead of episodic. the episodic structure of the show and constraints is what i think hurt it the most.
and the writers chickened out and always hit the magic reset button even when there where lasting impact of there choices a lot of time it was subdued and eventually forgotten or a writer then remembers it a few episodes later and gets rid of it
Let's keep in mind that at the time Voyager was on, serialized TV was still a rarity. Babylon 5 and DS9 had done it, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was doing it, and maybe a few others, but the vast majority of shows were "reset button" shows.
Heck, TNG showed us how to do that style of show well.
The problem with Voyager's use of the "reset button" was that 1) it didn't use it to tell very good or well thought-out stories, and 2) the premise of the show was one that promoted serialization, rather than the episodic structure they used.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Sure, all of the other series and some of the films have shown their protagonists getting away with some pretty heinous and idiotic stuff because of writer fiat. TNG: "The Child" had Deanna get frakking r@ped and nobody gave a frak. ENT: "Dear Doctor" has Archer and Phlox commit negligent genocide because of a Prime Directive that, hello, doesn't frakking exist yet and would be morally repugnant if it did. Even DS9, my favorite series, suffered from it: "For the Uniform" had Sisko let Eddington's insult to and betrayal of the service get personal to the point where he stoops to his level and commits a war crime, just so the writers could make Les Miz references because frak you.
But none of them did this as flagrantly or as frequently as VOY. My personal favorite is "Scorpion", a.k.a. The One Where Starfleet JAG is Apparently Completely Fine with Protagonists Committing Treason. And she gets promoted to admiral because justice systems apparently work that way.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
1) I'm think many (Most? All?) people would agree that mass popularity does not equal quality.
2) I emphatically do not agree with you regarding the quality of the show, but I respect you nonetheless. Let's keep some perspective here - it's just a TV show.
Yeah sure, the opinions of the few [trek nerds] are more valid than that of the many because?:P
I didn't tell you what my opinion is. Just what the results were when ppl vote with their wallets. But hey, if it matter that much to you, you can always get rich, then go buy additional TOS dvd sets to alter the balance.:cool:
Just point out that it's the few [and the 1337:D] hating Voyager, online. It's fairly popular among the less hardcore.
ENT: "Dear Doctor" has Archer and Phlox commit negligent genocide because of a Prime Directive that, hello, doesn't frakking exist yet and would be morally repugnant if it did. Even DS9, my favorite series, suffered from it: "For the Uniform" had Sisko let Eddington's insult to and betrayal of the service get personal to the point where he stoops to his level and commits a war crime, just so the writers could make Les Miz references because frak you.
But none of them did this as flagrantly or as frequently as VOY. My personal favorite is "Scorpion", a.k.a. The One Where Starfleet JAG is Apparently Completely Fine with Protagonists Committing Treason. And she gets promoted to admiral because justice systems apparently work that way.
To me, there's a key difference in the way these various scenarios were written and portrayed on the series, which affect their quality from a dramatic standpoint.
For the Uniform: I never got the sense that Sisko's dogged determination to take Eddington down was ever supposed to be a good thing. However, there are no real consequences for Sisko's use of biogenic weapons (and there's no evidence to indicate that he was bluffing). On the whole, I don't dislike the episode as much as you do, but the ending is problematic. Compare that to In the Pale Moonlight, in which Sisko does some pretty horrible stuff, but also acknowledges that he did some pretty horrible stuff, and that there is a stain on his soul because of it. That is good drama.
Dear Doctor: I thought this was a good analysis of the logic behind the Prime Directive, even though the Directive itself didn't exist yet. That doesn't mean the ethical issues surrounding the Prime Directive wouldn't have been actively discussed at that time.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
The only thing that attracted an audience to VOY was Jeri Ryan wearing outfits that were painted on. Sex sells and thrives in nerd fantasies.
Your defense of Voy proves you still dream about getting assimilated by 7 of 9. :P Heck I still think about it. :rolleyes:
See how hardcore trek nerds think? Why would you assume I'm a guy? Or a Voy fan? I think Voyager is alright, better than Stargate or TNG, not as good as Firefly. I like Paris better than Ice Queen, btw.:P
Now you know why the opinions of the few [hardcore trek nerds] matter so very little to the rest of humanity. Oh, and you should get out more.;)
Tom Paris was cooler than Riker.
+
Seven of Nine was hotter than Kirk.
+
The time travel episode where they went back to the 90's was better than Sisko and co. traveling to Kirk's time.
+
Tuvok was more logical than Spock.
=
Voyager best Star Trek ever.
My opoinion the problem with voyager comes from 2 people:
Rick Berman And Brannon Baraga.
These two managed to do the most damage with episodes like "Threshold." and went on to do things like "A night in Sick Bay"which effectively killed Trek from television.
These two basically milked the franchise for every dollar that they can.
Voyager relied on too much technobabble and was chuck full of clichies. Sub par writting when compared to DS9.
The only thing that attracted an audience to VOY was Jeri Ryan wearing outfits that were painted on. Sex sells and thrives in nerd fantasies.
Your defense of Voy proves you still dream about getting assimilated by 7 of 9. :P Heck I still think about it. :rolleyes:
My TRIBBLE friend writes torrid J/7 slash fics.
Even I find Seven physically attractive, although I prefer Jadzia Dax and Alice Krige's Borg Queen. Seven gets impossibly irritating every time she opens her mouth.
I mean, SHOW SOME FREAKING PERSONALITY, WOMAN!!!!!
Women with attitude are more attractive than busty blond sex objects. Alice Krige's TRIBBLE act is hotter than Seven of Nine. Simple facts of life...
What Voyager should've done is bring in Alice Krige as an ex-Borg instead of Jeri Ryan, keep her in that suit she wore in First Contact, and let her do her thing. She'd have half the crew licking her boots and begging to be whipped in about 30 minutes, but at least she'd be more than a pair of TRIBBLE.
To me, there's a key difference in the way these various scenarios were written and portrayed on the series, which affect their quality from a dramatic standpoint.
For the Uniform: I never got the sense that Sisko's dogged determination to take Eddington down was ever supposed to be a good thing. However, there are no real consequences for Sisko's use of biogenic weapons (and there's no evidence to indicate that he was bluffing). On the whole, I don't dislike the episode as much as you do, but the ending is problematic. Compare that to In the Pale Moonlight, in which Sisko does some pretty horrible stuff, but also acknowledges that he did some pretty horrible stuff, and that there is a stain on his soul because of it. That is good drama.
Dear Doctor: I thought this was a good analysis of the logic behind the Prime Directive, even though the Directive itself didn't exist yet. That doesn't mean the ethical issues surrounding the Prime Directive wouldn't have been actively discussed at that time.
Scorpion: Appalling.
Agreed. Scorpion, like Threshold, is unforgivable.
Dear Doctor was ethically warped, and the fanservice about the Prime Directive was clumsily-handled. Another reason to hate early-season Enterprise...
For the Uniform: Yeah, the ending sucks. The episode itself is good, but the ending robs it of the narrative power. In the Pale Moonlight is MUCH better overall.
Moved to Ten forward as it has nothing to do with STO.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
When TNG was released there was hate for the Galaxy yet it is now one of the favourite ships. I made the mistake of saying I liked the model of it in a "specialist" collectors shop and I got an earfull from a Trekkie about how awful it was and not fitting to Trek at all.
I couldn't stand DS9 I tried to watch it but just didn't like it. Each person will have their favourites and the ones they don't like. Personally I found Voyager watchable but like some other shows I saw it as more bubble gum for the brain.
Now if anyone dares insult LFN I will hunt them down and do nasty things to them
Voyager is the best Star Trek series ever made. :cool:
Your comment, ITS A FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE :P
Anyway, Voyager wasn't bad in my eyes as a general series (episodes like Threshold can be forgiven by episodes such as Year of Hell).
However, there were some pretty bad captain decisions, torpedo tree, shuttle tree, lack of character development (Neelix had 1 development in season 4-7, which was leaving the ship). It missed out on its potential. I remember reading a writer, one that also was involved in DS9, saying how much he hated writing for Voyager.
It started good, but went to mediocre. It should have been like that episode in which they fall into an area of space out of which they only can escape through forming an alliance with other species. And Voyager should have looked like the NX-01 in the end of Season 3. And they shouldn't have nerfed the Borg.
I'm not saying its a bad series, just rather poor from what I expected out of a Trek series. In my eyes, Voyager is the least of all series.
SGU was one of the best scifi shows made this century. Aside from a few weak Communication Stones episodes that is.
Overall I'd rate it higher than any Trek series.
i didnt like that SGU was cancelled either, it was something rare and should of had the chance to continue, i liked it, watching rush and young gravitating towards each other was always fun to watch and both of them resentfully realizing they need each other to survive. varro that lucian alliance soldier looked like a good storyline behind that one as a member of the crew that never got the chance either. i always wondered if eli went native after 3 years in the void of space with the crew in stasis.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Comments
Yeah, me too. I thought we were ******** about why we didn't like VOY, not that it isn't canon. The issue is that it IS canon but probably shouldn't be.
I bet you didn get your morning coffe (or milk... whatever) today...
You seem kinda touchy... He was asking a question...
You were the one to bring it up...just saying.
Hey, happens to the best of us.
You were right about one thing...this thread will eventually be moved to Ten Forward.
/Thread derailed
Voyager was the longest running and had high ratings despite being on solely UPN network that reached few people. That's tv rating, not trek nerd opinion ranking. They also had the highest dvd sales. Startrek.com poll showed them to be 2nd most popular trek series. Then the trek nerds made a stink online and declared the poll invalid because ppl who voted aren't all certifiable trek nerds.:rolleyes:
It's only the very few, very hardcore [and very vocal] trek nerds hating Voyager. Lucky, they don't matter. It's fairly popular among other populations, including mainstream scifi fans in general.;)
I think some people didn't really get the message that these were really not the right people in the right place. (Despite that being said multiple times in the recaps).
Too often I heart critique like "people like that would never be able to serve in the military/that position". But first:
Soldiers are ordinary people with flaws, and real world military doesn't generally make that deep psych evals and background checks. They would definitely serve. THe ymight not be in the position they were, but then, they never were intended to.
And if you require them to work with civilians that definitely weren't supposed to be aboard that ship...
It's also something that was levelled against BSG - and those were also not the people in the right spot. THey were never intended as safeguardians of the remnant of the human fleet. They were on an old ship that was to be mothballed. They weren't the best of the best. They were just good enough and reliable enough to not be thrown out of the military...
And Voyager had the same potential. Sure, there were plenty Starfleet officers and we know those are basically superhuman idealists - but they also had Maquis members and convicts. BUt those immediately put on the Starfleet Uniform and acted like they were full-time Starfleet members.
What do you expect from a thread started in the wrong discussion area? Never worry, it will be moved soon enough.
Aren't we all?
It wasn't so much the area--it was the sudden Voyager fanboy post of admitted premature--ness.
I hope that made sense.
1) I'm think many (Most? All?) people would agree that mass popularity does not equal quality.
2) I emphatically do not agree with you regarding the quality of the show, but I respect you nonetheless. Let's keep some perspective here - it's just a TV show.
and the writers chickened out and always hit the magic reset button even when there where lasting impact of there choices a lot of time it was subdued and eventually forgotten or a writer then remembers it a few episodes later and gets rid of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k
not even going into the shuttles
Let's keep in mind that at the time Voyager was on, serialized TV was still a rarity. Babylon 5 and DS9 had done it, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was doing it, and maybe a few others, but the vast majority of shows were "reset button" shows.
Heck, TNG showed us how to do that style of show well.
The problem with Voyager's use of the "reset button" was that 1) it didn't use it to tell very good or well thought-out stories, and 2) the premise of the show was one that promoted serialization, rather than the episodic structure they used.
Sure, all of the other series and some of the films have shown their protagonists getting away with some pretty heinous and idiotic stuff because of writer fiat. TNG: "The Child" had Deanna get frakking r@ped and nobody gave a frak. ENT: "Dear Doctor" has Archer and Phlox commit negligent genocide because of a Prime Directive that, hello, doesn't frakking exist yet and would be morally repugnant if it did. Even DS9, my favorite series, suffered from it: "For the Uniform" had Sisko let Eddington's insult to and betrayal of the service get personal to the point where he stoops to his level and commits a war crime, just so the writers could make Les Miz references because frak you.
But none of them did this as flagrantly or as frequently as VOY. My personal favorite is "Scorpion", a.k.a. The One Where Starfleet JAG is Apparently Completely Fine with Protagonists Committing Treason. And she gets promoted to admiral because justice systems apparently work that way.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Yeah sure, the opinions of the few [trek nerds] are more valid than that of the many because?:P
I didn't tell you what my opinion is. Just what the results were when ppl vote with their wallets. But hey, if it matter that much to you, you can always get rich, then go buy additional TOS dvd sets to alter the balance.:cool:
Just point out that it's the few [and the 1337:D] hating Voyager, online. It's fairly popular among the less hardcore.
To me, there's a key difference in the way these various scenarios were written and portrayed on the series, which affect their quality from a dramatic standpoint.
For the Uniform: I never got the sense that Sisko's dogged determination to take Eddington down was ever supposed to be a good thing. However, there are no real consequences for Sisko's use of biogenic weapons (and there's no evidence to indicate that he was bluffing). On the whole, I don't dislike the episode as much as you do, but the ending is problematic. Compare that to In the Pale Moonlight, in which Sisko does some pretty horrible stuff, but also acknowledges that he did some pretty horrible stuff, and that there is a stain on his soul because of it. That is good drama.
Dear Doctor: I thought this was a good analysis of the logic behind the Prime Directive, even though the Directive itself didn't exist yet. That doesn't mean the ethical issues surrounding the Prime Directive wouldn't have been actively discussed at that time.
Scorpion: Appalling.
Sorry for making the assumption.
See how hardcore trek nerds think? Why would you assume I'm a guy? Or a Voy fan? I think Voyager is alright, better than Stargate or TNG, not as good as Firefly. I like Paris better than Ice Queen, btw.:P
Now you know why the opinions of the few [hardcore trek nerds] matter so very little to the rest of humanity. Oh, and you should get out more.;)
+
Seven of Nine was hotter than Kirk.
+
The time travel episode where they went back to the 90's was better than Sisko and co. traveling to Kirk's time.
+
Tuvok was more logical than Spock.
=
Voyager best Star Trek ever.
@DevolvedOne
Rick Berman And Brannon Baraga.
These two managed to do the most damage with episodes like "Threshold." and went on to do things like "A night in Sick Bay"which effectively killed Trek from television.
These two basically milked the franchise for every dollar that they can.
Voyager relied on too much technobabble and was chuck full of clichies. Sub par writting when compared to DS9.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Even I find Seven physically attractive, although I prefer Jadzia Dax and Alice Krige's Borg Queen. Seven gets impossibly irritating every time she opens her mouth.
I mean, SHOW SOME FREAKING PERSONALITY, WOMAN!!!!!
Women with attitude are more attractive than busty blond sex objects. Alice Krige's TRIBBLE act is hotter than Seven of Nine. Simple facts of life...
What Voyager should've done is bring in Alice Krige as an ex-Borg instead of Jeri Ryan, keep her in that suit she wore in First Contact, and let her do her thing. She'd have half the crew licking her boots and begging to be whipped in about 30 minutes, but at least she'd be more than a pair of TRIBBLE.
Agreed. Scorpion, like Threshold, is unforgivable.
Dear Doctor was ethically warped, and the fanservice about the Prime Directive was clumsily-handled. Another reason to hate early-season Enterprise...
For the Uniform: Yeah, the ending sucks. The episode itself is good, but the ending robs it of the narrative power. In the Pale Moonlight is MUCH better overall.
SGU was one of the best scifi shows made this century. Aside from a few weak Communication Stones episodes that is.
Overall I'd rate it higher than any Trek series.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
I couldn't stand DS9 I tried to watch it but just didn't like it. Each person will have their favourites and the ones they don't like. Personally I found Voyager watchable but like some other shows I saw it as more bubble gum for the brain.
Now if anyone dares insult LFN I will hunt them down and do nasty things to them
Your comment, ITS A FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE :P
Anyway, Voyager wasn't bad in my eyes as a general series (episodes like Threshold can be forgiven by episodes such as Year of Hell).
However, there were some pretty bad captain decisions, torpedo tree, shuttle tree, lack of character development (Neelix had 1 development in season 4-7, which was leaving the ship). It missed out on its potential. I remember reading a writer, one that also was involved in DS9, saying how much he hated writing for Voyager.
It started good, but went to mediocre. It should have been like that episode in which they fall into an area of space out of which they only can escape through forming an alliance with other species. And Voyager should have looked like the NX-01 in the end of Season 3. And they shouldn't have nerfed the Borg.
I'm not saying its a bad series, just rather poor from what I expected out of a Trek series. In my eyes, Voyager is the least of all series.
Join the Deltas today!
i didnt like that SGU was cancelled either, it was something rare and should of had the chance to continue, i liked it, watching rush and young gravitating towards each other was always fun to watch and both of them resentfully realizing they need each other to survive. varro that lucian alliance soldier looked like a good storyline behind that one as a member of the crew that never got the chance either. i always wondered if eli went native after 3 years in the void of space with the crew in stasis.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.