Crit chance and Crit severity are getting tuned down a little bit (though still higher than Holodeck values), while a number of other traits are getting tweaked up to be more competitive with offensive options.
right so with that i ask when are you going to look into the romulan superior operative trait because right now with it romulans can achieve ridiculous crit numbers in both pvp and pve while FED/KDF can only dream to achieve such feat
sorry if it's slightly off topic but since these change are done to combat ''power creep'' i feel like it's a good time to bring this up
also i really like that you can change trait whenever you want it's going to make ground a little bit more enjoyable
now to separate ground and space skills
Any thoughts on dumping the Skill Point AND Trait system, and implementing a more managable/understandable "Talent Tree" type system? Talents which could be tailored both to your character, and to your ship? With every ship having different talents (as well as common talents found in all ships)
It will be very much useful if you use torpedoes or mines. We're doubling down on the theme of Kinetic damage making sense against the Borg.
kinetic is ok against basic npcs right now, but the problem is the 75% base shield resistance to knetic damage on every shield, and that it does NOT cap at 75%, its commonly over 90% especially on players. theres a million things constantly effecting regeneration and healing too, the original game play mechanic of lower a shield facing, and deliver torps through it, is non applicable to a fully built level 50 character.
borg ships shouldn't even have shields at all, so i like what im hearing so far. but kinetic needs a total rethink as to how it interacts with shields as well. from the starting point of accepting that there is NO canon establishing that torpedoes are ineffective against shields AT ALL, and that in the past its been nothing more then a game play mechanic in past games that you have followed.
Hawk, you still have not addressed the matter of trait slots, which a great many people feel should be expanded to 8/8/4, minus the recent buffs to traits.
As already mentioned, its a fair compromise to existing players while looking to the future.
I think 4/4/4 still makes sense. Much better approach to have smaller number of meaningful choices than a mass of insignificant ones.
First off, thank all of you who have gotten on Tribble and tested out the powers changes. We are reading all your feedback and taking it seriously. Changing powers that are already live is never an easy decision to make, as it makes players have to re-learn the characters with which they are intimately familiar.
Secondly, I wanted to give you all a heads up on some changes you'll be seeing soon based on your feedback.
First, we're a little concerned about creating situations where players would want to use battlecloak in the middle of a fight to drop out of combat and change their rep traits, then de-cloak. We want these to be strategic choices, not tactical ones, lasting for "a run of an episode" rather than "a pull of a spawn group". So we're changing power slotting to be restricted to Sector Space and noncombat social zones.
However, the good news about this is that we're changing Species Traits to work the same way Reputation Traits work. That means you'll be able to change your Trait build for free without worrying about hoarding Trait Respecs. It also means you can try out new builds and explore the possibilities of gameplay at no cost other than thinking about your build. I'm hoping this makes Trait deckbuilding a lot more fun for a lot more people. This also means that if you want to spend a couple hours playing Ground content, you're able to spec out for that, then change your spec when you go back to Space later that day.
We're also making some tuning adjustments to Reputation powers based on the testing that we and players have done. Crit chance and Crit severity are getting tuned down a little bit (though still higher than Holodeck values), while a number of other traits are getting tweaked up to be more competitive with offensive options. We've added Adaptation Delay back into the Omega ground offensive kinetic proc as well based on player feedback.
Finally, I wanted to talk about the Omega "+10% damage" trait. Right now, this is a no brainer. It used to buff Weapon Skill, which was also a no-brainer but was more esoteric - so we made it +% damage to make its effect more clear. However, as many of you have pointed out, as long as this trait exists in its current form, it would be best-spec in pretty much every build for every player. We could just reduce the damage values to something that other traits could compete with, but instead, we're planning on re-imagining the core concept of this ability. I don't want to get into details before it's finished, but I did want to give you all a heads up that the +dmg trait would be changing into something else offensive that will be better in some circumstances but less of a general "you must take this" ability.
Ok, that's all for now. Thanks again for all the valuable feedback you've all provided.
This is AWESOME!!! Before I started PvPing I had made my characters fairly balanced for ground and space. Due to the need for min-maxing in PvP I had to create builds that were dedicated to space or ground. Under this new system I can enjoy all my toons equally in all situations. Granted my ground dedicated toons will still spend 100K on ground skills and 266 space, whereas my space toons will spend 300k space and 66 ground, but that realistically reflects the captains area of expertise.
I want to close by saying that I for one absolutely love the changes in store for season nine and am looking forward to it more than any update since I started playing!! KUDOS!
I think 4/4/4 still makes sense. Much better approach to have smaller number of meaningful choices than a mass of insignificant ones.
But the problem with 4/4/4 was that it kills all incentive to do future reps for abilities since you just don't have the slots and the current abilities are already really good, and with the buffs you do more damage with 4 than you do with 8.
Hence why most of us want them to do an 8/8/4 cap with no buffs so things stay exactly as they are now regarding overall powers, those of us who earned T5 on all the reps don't lose anything and we might even want to do future reps if we have 8 passive slots instead of 4.
And if we don't, then we effectively lose an ability?
An ability that currently gives +15% base Weapon Damage, mind you - but it's something where they don't want there to be a single ability that everybody's like...yeah...I'm taking that - which is what the Enhanced Emergency Power to Everything +10% version would be doing - giving that +10% to All non-base Damage...all the time...was basically setting itself up for, no?
Likely why they're also toning down the crit stuff. They basically created four Traits that - well - for most folks would have made the rest and any future Traits useless by comparison.
They've got this deck building thing going - they want folks to run ABC for X, maybe BDF for Y, maybe ACE for Z...etc, etc, etc. They don't want folks just to run the same thing for everything because that particular thing is pretty much the best thing in all cases.
As mentioned, imho though, being able to switch out oodles of things will be nifty - but it's still going to leave that sore thumb of Skills. Then again, how much longer will that matter given what Geko had said about a Skill Revamp and Expansion 2? Is all of this "deck building" stuff with Traits, Rep Traits, Ship Loadouts...a test for what's to come with that Skill Revamp?
I think 4/4/4 still makes sense. Much better approach to have smaller number of meaningful choices than a mass of insignificant ones.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it's unpleasant to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
First off, thank all of you who have gotten on Tribble and tested out the powers changes. We are reading all your feedback and taking it seriously. Changing powers that are already live is never an easy decision to make, as it makes players have to re-learn the characters with which they are intimately familiar.
Secondly, I wanted to give you all a heads up on some changes you'll be seeing soon based on your feedback.
First, we're a little concerned about creating situations where players would want to use battlecloak in the middle of a fight to drop out of combat and change their rep traits, then de-cloak. We want these to be strategic choices, not tactical ones, lasting for "a run of an episode" rather than "a pull of a spawn group". So we're changing power slotting to be restricted to Sector Space and noncombat social zones.
However, the good news about this is that we're changing Species Traits to work the same way Reputation Traits work. That means you'll be able to change your Trait build for free without worrying about hoarding Trait Respecs. It also means you can try out new builds and explore the possibilities of gameplay at no cost other than thinking about your build. I'm hoping this makes Trait deckbuilding a lot more fun for a lot more people. This also means that if you want to spend a couple hours playing Ground content, you're able to spec out for that, then change your spec when you go back to Space later that day.
We're also making some tuning adjustments to Reputation powers based on the testing that we and players have done. Crit chance and Crit severity are getting tuned down a little bit (though still higher than Holodeck values), while a number of other traits are getting tweaked up to be more competitive with offensive options. We've added Adaptation Delay back into the Omega ground offensive kinetic proc as well based on player feedback.
Finally, I wanted to talk about the Omega "+10% damage" trait. Right now, this is a no brainer. It used to buff Weapon Skill, which was also a no-brainer but was more esoteric - so we made it +% damage to make its effect more clear. However, as many of you have pointed out, as long as this trait exists in its current form, it would be best-spec in pretty much every build for every player. We could just reduce the damage values to something that other traits could compete with, but instead, we're planning on re-imagining the core concept of this ability. I don't want to get into details before it's finished, but I did want to give you all a heads up that the +dmg trait would be changing into something else offensive that will be better in some circumstances but less of a general "you must take this" ability.
Ok, that's all for now. Thanks again for all the valuable feedback you've all provided.
Catch 22, sort of.
#1 If we're limited to changing species traits in sector space and ground social maps, it will make story content harder. We could load up on space traits to do the space part of an episode but when it comes time for the ground part we will have little to no ground traits selected and won't be able to swap them around. The other option is to stick with the traits we have already chosen meaning we won't be able to load up on space or ground traits for specific content and it kinda makes the system redundant.
#2 If we can change our species traits whenever we want then that means we could change them in the middle of an STF or PVP and that wouldn't be fair since reputation traits are being limited to sector space and social maps for when when can change them.
I like the idea of not needing species traits respec tokens and being able to change them whenever I want. I have some toons that need respecs anyway but I'll wait until season 9 launches.
Since we have a total of 8 species trait slots, the only way I can see this working is if you limit us to 4 space and 4 ground species traits like the reputation powers, but we start out with access to 3 slots and all others are unlocked at level 10,20,30,40, and 50. Though what levels the trait slots are unlocked would have to be changed so we start with 1 space and 1 ground slot at least and unlock 1 of each at certain levels/ranks.
Some species have a very limited selection of space traits though. For example: my Catian engineer has only 2 space traits, Accurate and Elusive. He has 2 more traits from his career, EPS Manifold Efficiency and Grace Under Fire, for a grand total of 4 space traits to choose from. I've taken all 4 space traits and that left me with 4 slots for ground, so there wouldn't be much change for him being limited to 4 space and 4 ground.
This would cut down on the power creep and make it more fair, and possibly standardize the whole system. My Human tactical captain has a total of 7 space traits compared to the 4 traits my Catian has. If we are able to load up on space traits with the only limit being the 8 trait slots we have, some species would have a greater advantage over others in PVP as well as outperforming others in PVE content for players whose species has a limited selection of traits.
I will also say I have to agree now that going from being able to take a total of 8 ground and 8 space traits with the 4 current reputations, to being able to only choose 4 ground out of 20 and 4 space out of 20 (new reputation included), is really not fair. It should at least be 6 ground and 6 space reputation traits we can take.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it sucks to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
The other thing you should be looking at is rep differentiation going forward. With a narrow selection of slots new traits will have to be compelling to use going forward whilst, and at the same time, avoiding power creep within the system itself. With the ability to change traits out quickly you could start putting in more situational selections but that would only go so far.
#1 If we're limited to changing species traits in sector space and ground social maps, it will make story content harder. We could load up on space traits to do the space part of an episode but when it comes time for the ground part we will have little to no ground traits selected and won't be able to swap them around. The other option is to stick with the traits we have already chosen meaning we won't be able to load up on space or ground traits for specific content and it kinda makes the system redundant.
well, that particular problem can be gotten around just by including a button for switching up traits on the away team selection window thingy
of course, that introduces another problem, being that you'll only be able to switch traits while going space -> ground, but not ground -> space
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it sucks to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
Thank you for giving us reasoning on this.
Personally, I still prefer the current system to the new even with testing on tribble and it giving me more powers. I don't mind 8 small powers instead of 4 larger ones. And from the responses here and on the original blog post I'm not alone.
That being said I'm grateful that you have at least responded to it. Obviously as you say launching the system this way would of cut out the majority of the issues we have with it which is mostly the losing powers we earned and increasing the power creep even more than if it stayed as it is now.
The only thing I want to add is that if 4/4/4/buffs is set in stone which it seems to be, I strongly recommend that you and the other developers come up with more unique powers and/or rewards for future reputations. The examples that we came up with in this thread were:
More Dilithum/marks at T5, VR Doff with preexisting (but rare) or new ability, unique Boffs with new or unique traits, especially space traits, costume pieces, exclusive item set piece or unique item that fits with the reputation.
With the less powers were going to need some incentives to actually do these reps. If there are no items we want, and now no powers were willing to switch out to, we have no incentive to run the reputation. Part of the reason why we supported the 8/8/4 was for that specific reason, more spots to switch out. at 4/4/4 many of us are going to need a much better reason to bother with future reputations if we don't want anything and won't use any of the powers.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it sucks to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
Unacceptable.
We worked hard to be where we are today, and no matter how you twist and turn, 4/4/4 devalues the time, effort and resources we have spent leveling up our reputation.
All of which is greately multiplied when you take into account the number of alts some people have.
And while the powers in their current incarnation on holodeck has a subtle effect, its still noticable.
I would rather take a greater diversity of powers than only being able to use a tiny fraction of the ones at my disposal any day, no matter how strong or weak they are.
On top of which it seriously puts a damper on any incentive we veteran players might have on leveling future reputation systems.
Honestly if you refuse to listen to reason and insist on sticking with 4/4/4, then I would really like to know how you intend to compensate us who have maxed out the rep systems for our losses.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it's unpleasant to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
I agree. That's now most games do it, and this game isn't set up for a bajillion abilities. If it were rebalanced for it, eh, but for now 4/4/4/4 would be good.
Hi all, QR'ing to the thread:
First, we're a little concerned about creating situations where players would want to use battlecloak in the middle of a fight to drop out of combat and change their rep traits, then de-cloak. We want these to be strategic choices, not tactical ones, lasting for "a run of an episode" rather than "a pull of a spawn group". So we're changing power slotting to be restricted to Sector Space and noncombat social zones.
However, the good news about this is that we're changing Species Traits to work the same way Reputation Traits work. That means you'll be able to change your Trait build for free without worrying about hoarding Trait Respecs. It also means you can try out new builds and explore the possibilities of gameplay at no cost other than thinking about your build. I'm hoping this makes Trait deckbuilding a lot more fun for a lot more people. This also means that if you want to spend a couple hours playing Ground content, you're able to spec out for that, then change your spec when you go back to Space later that day.
Could we just have 8 ground and 8 space slots for species traits, then? Swapping them every time is just unnecessary work (and a pain in the neck) for what is effectively the same thing. (Same goes for rep actives)
Some folks are definitely unhappy...and they appear to find it unacceptable. Others are happy with the changes and what it will mean for the game going forward.
We I worked hard to be where we are I am today, and no matter how you twist and turn, 4/4/4 devalues the time, effort and resources we I have spent leveling up our my reputation.
I had to fix that...cause uh, you are not a "we" - you are an "I"...you can only speak for yourself; unless you have some sort of little thing from a group of folks stating that you can speak for them.
I did not work hard grinding anything up. It wasn't work. It was a game. Sure, it may have taken time - but uh - it's a game, it's entertainment - it's meant to pass the time and grinding reps passed time.
And while the powers in their current incarnation on holodeck has a subtle effect, its still noticable.
The new incarnations will be more noticeable - we'll be switching them around depending on what we're doing. We'll have to think more about what we're doing perhaps - but that's not a bad thing...is it?
I would rather take a greater diversity of powers than only being able to use a tiny fraction of the ones at my disposal any day, no matter how strong or weak they are.
There will be a greater diversity of powers...allowing you to customize our character to what they're doing. I do not think you quite comprehend what diversity means. You go into a restaurant, it can have a pretty diverse menu - all sorts of things...do you order everything? No, you order what you feel like at the moment. That doesn't change that it is a diverse menu. Tada...welcome to the Rep Revamp...the menu's going to get more diverse.
On top of which it seriously puts a damper on any incentive we some veteran players might have on leveling future reputation systems.
Had to fix that one as well. Again, you don't speak for me...don't bother trying to speak for me. It doesn't put a damper in the least on any plans I have for leveling any and all future reputations.
So what you're saying is, that you have no interest in leveling up two more Ground T5s and two more Space T5s so you can run with either 4x Ground or Space Actives? Counter-Command's adding a third Space Active. Don't want that?
Don't want any of the gear that comes with leveling up a new Rep? Don't want any of the rewards that come with leveling up a new Rep? Don't want that T5 reward?
Don't want to have access to the new Abilities for when you're doing different things in the game?
Honestly if you refuse to listen to reason and insist on sticking with 4/4/4, then I would really like to know how you intend to compensate us who have maxed out the rep systems for our losses.
I'm pretty sure they've been listening to the reasonable replies - Hell, they've probably even waded through all the unreasonable replies as well.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it's unpleasant to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
Why don't you smack the face of the people who played for those passive skills you are limiting?? It would be easier.
After the whole Dyson ships introduction, first ship was blah. I grinded for that. Then Dyson ships I grind only for the Romulan ship and Klingon. I still haven't played those. I actually have 3 ships in my inventory that is a waste.
As for future reps, I'm not playing it like many others. The only reason I played the Dyson one was for the passive skills.
Why don't you and Cryptic just TRIBBLE long time players more. It will be easier. After talking to someone else playing a online game, they let people get to level 70 and keep building the passive skills. Maybe if Cryptic wasn't too lazy making end-user content, just maybe those passive skills will be needed.
Yes, it's unpleasant to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
Unacceptable.
You have the opportunity including your other developers to make content that meets the difficulty of eng game. Unless you and the developers are too lazy making it or the no CEO or whatever the heck he is. Is too worried about grinding.
Which people are beginning to hate. The 8/8/4 was the best alternative. Next thing we know you all will want to Cap traits.
However, the good news about this is that we're changing Species Traits to work the same way Reputation Traits work. That means you'll be able to change your Trait build for free without worrying about hoarding Trait Respecs. It also means you can try out new builds and explore the possibilities of gameplay at no cost other than thinking about your build. I'm hoping this makes Trait deckbuilding a lot more fun for a lot more people. This also means that if you want to spend a couple hours playing Ground content, you're able to spec out for that, then change your spec when you go back to Space later that day.
You know, maybe its just me, but I don't like this part about Species Traits. Now if this was Call of Duty or some other shooter like that, I mean sure, mix everything up. But this is an MMORPG, last time I checked. Or at least it says its one. And, IMHO, that has a certain element of you make you choice and you live with it. Of course, I support being able to change things if you end up not liking what you did, or if the game changes or something like that, but this is your character, your avatar. It should have some element of unchanging about it. This is making your character too much like you ship, don't like a part, swap it out. And to me, that seems wrong.
You know, maybe its just me, but I don't like this part about Species Traits. Now if this was Call of Duty or some other shooter like that, I mean sure, mix everything up. But this is an MMORPG, last time I checked. Or at least it says its one. And, IMHO, that has a certain element of you make you choice and you live with it. Of course, I support being able to change things if you end up not liking what you did, or if the game changes or something like that, but this is your character, your avatar. It should have some element of unchanging about it. This is making your character too much like you ship, don't like a part, swap it out. And to me, that seems wrong.
I know of very few MMORPG's these days that permanently locks you into a choice other than your starting class.
You have the opportunity including your other developers to make content that meets the difficulty of eng game. Unless you and the developers are too lazy making it or the no CEO or whatever the heck he is. Is too worried about grinding.
Which people are beginning to hate. The 8/8/4 was the best alternative. Next thing we know you all will want to Cap traits.
Capping traits has been here since the beginning.
So, start raging at that.
Y'know what, start raging about everything in the game, while you're at it!
I like the fact they don't cap players traits and learned skills. Hell if you lose a ship without insaurance it will blow. It should be the same in STO, you get your ship blown up. You just end up in a escape pod. Then you end up in spacedock. Next you have to request a new ship if you don't have one in your inventory or buy a new one.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it's unpleasant to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
4/4/4 is fine with me, my only question is long term might that become 4/4/4/4 when more active powers are in the system? Otherwise it seems funky to have to switch your active powers based on ground/space.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it's unpleasant to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
Why not just 8 passives, and 4 actives?
People like having dedicated characters and because the way the skills and traits are set up you're either great at one or mediocre at both.
Having 8 passives would help ease this transition since you could use all of the space powers that you currently have.
Having the passives limited to 4 /4 gives me no incentive to do future reputation systems unless the gear and passives are FAR superior to existing ones, which would defeat the purpose of having 4 passives.
I can do every piece of existing space content with ease at the moment without any future reputations, considering that this game will continue to tailor content to a "can do it in your sleep" type player, I am confident that any future content in this game can be done with my existing set up and traits.
Why should I bother to grind any future reputation systems?
Actually having 8/8/4 makes more sense than just having 8/4.
You said it yourself, people like having specific builds, but switching powers between ground is just tedious and does not actually add anything to the game experience.
First off, thank all of you who have gotten on Tribble and tested out the powers changes. We are reading all your feedback and taking it seriously. Changing powers that are already live is never an easy decision to make, as it makes players have to re-learn the characters with which they are intimately familiar.
Secondly, I wanted to give you all a heads up on some changes you'll be seeing soon based on your feedback.
First, we're a little concerned about creating situations where players would want to use battlecloak in the middle of a fight to drop out of combat and change their rep traits, then de-cloak. We want these to be strategic choices, not tactical ones, lasting for "a run of an episode" rather than "a pull of a spawn group". So we're changing power slotting to be restricted to Sector Space and noncombat social zones.
However, the good news about this is that we're changing Species Traits to work the same way Reputation Traits work. That means you'll be able to change your Trait build for free without worrying about hoarding Trait Respecs. It also means you can try out new builds and explore the possibilities of gameplay at no cost other than thinking about your build. I'm hoping this makes Trait deckbuilding a lot more fun for a lot more people. This also means that if you want to spend a couple hours playing Ground content, you're able to spec out for that, then change your spec when you go back to Space later that day.
We're also making some tuning adjustments to Reputation powers based on the testing that we and players have done. Crit chance and Crit severity are getting tuned down a little bit (though still higher than Holodeck values), while a number of other traits are getting tweaked up to be more competitive with offensive options. We've added Adaptation Delay back into the Omega ground offensive kinetic proc as well based on player feedback.
Finally, I wanted to talk about the Omega "+10% damage" trait. Right now, this is a no brainer. It used to buff Weapon Skill, which was also a no-brainer but was more esoteric - so we made it +% damage to make its effect more clear. However, as many of you have pointed out, as long as this trait exists in its current form, it would be best-spec in pretty much every build for every player. We could just reduce the damage values to something that other traits could compete with, but instead, we're planning on re-imagining the core concept of this ability. I don't want to get into details before it's finished, but I did want to give you all a heads up that the +dmg trait would be changing into something else offensive that will be better in some circumstances but less of a general "you must take this" ability.
Ok, that's all for now. Thanks again for all the valuable feedback you've all provided.
The changing of the trait respec is a positive one in my opinion, I would like to see skill respec's follow suit.
this is detail of what links should be
______________________________________________________________________ http://imgur.com/wr6iuOzspace Rep selection list (on trait tab)
http://imgur.com/sQLVY8CRep tab with mouse over showing what rep trait does.
______________________________________________________________________
Can we have the trait list change to something like http://imgur.com/sQLVY8C.
I'm thinking along the lines of having the traits displayed horizontally and about the size of what is used in the Rep tab.
or also using the Rep tab and being able to activate traits there and also deactivate them.
What I dislike about the vertical list.:
scrolling through list.
The look of it.
what I liked about the Rep tab layout:
-- clicking the power we wanted active.
mouse over showed what trait does. (the numbers, effects)
I like that look more than the vertical list of traits.
also noticed a bug.
In the Trait Tab under the space rep traits:
all space rep traits are incorrect.... that show the numbers of what it's supposed to do. here: http://imgur.com/wr6iuOz
This is while I'm in the New Undine space war zone.
First off, thank all of you who have gotten on Tribble and tested out the powers changes. We are reading all your feedback and taking it seriously. Changing powers that are already live is never an easy decision to make, as it makes players have to re-learn the characters with which they are intimately familiar.
Secondly, I wanted to give you all a heads up on some changes you'll be seeing soon based on your feedback.
First, we're a little concerned about creating situations where players would want to use battlecloak in the middle of a fight to drop out of combat and change their rep traits, then de-cloak. We want these to be strategic choices, not tactical ones, lasting for "a run of an episode" rather than "a pull of a spawn group". So we're changing power slotting to be restricted to Sector Space and noncombat social zones.
However, the good news about this is that we're changing Species Traits to work the same way Reputation Traits work. That means you'll be able to change your Trait build for free without worrying about hoarding Trait Respecs. It also means you can try out new builds and explore the possibilities of gameplay at no cost other than thinking about your build. I'm hoping this makes Trait deckbuilding a lot more fun for a lot more people. This also means that if you want to spend a couple hours playing Ground content, you're able to spec out for that,
This is wonderful news Hawk, thanks for these changes, I just have two questions. Firstly, have you thought about allowing us to respec anytime while putting a cooldown on another respec? For example, putting a 15 minute cooldown on reputation trait and species trait respecs would significantly limit the ability to exploit battle cloak to cycle traits. Additionally, it would still allow players to run through ground content before jumping into space content (and vice versa).
Secondly, could you please put an Energy Credit cost on respeccing species traits? It would place a sink on Energy Credits and it would give players more of a value on having Energy Credits. I think that would also be quite nice for something like a skill tree respec token: 2,500,000 Energy Credits for a skill tree respec, 25,000 for a species trait respec, and free reputation trait respecs.
Could we just have 8 ground and 8 space slots for species traits, then? Swapping them every time is just unnecessary work (and a pain in the neck) for what is effectively the same thing. (Same goes for rep actives)
Yeah, that would be nice to have in the long run. I really hope they don't drop us down to 4 space species traits and 4 ground species traits. Reputation traits are one thing, I can work around that fact, but species traits - especially for Ground PvP - have greatly enhanced the character customization options within the ground game.
Capping traits was a very wise decision from a development perspective. Having what was effectively an unlimited number of traits over time was a surefire way to hinder the ability for new players to get up to speed with older level 50s. 4/4/4 may seem limiting, I even disliked it at first, but I decided I liked the change the more I thought about it. The new system will significantly limit the power creep and that is something we badly needed ingame.
Comments
right so with that i ask when are you going to look into the romulan superior operative trait because right now with it romulans can achieve ridiculous crit numbers in both pvp and pve while FED/KDF can only dream to achieve such feat
sorry if it's slightly off topic but since these change are done to combat ''power creep'' i feel like it's a good time to bring this up
also i really like that you can change trait whenever you want it's going to make ground a little bit more enjoyable
now to separate ground and space skills
kinetic is ok against basic npcs right now, but the problem is the 75% base shield resistance to knetic damage on every shield, and that it does NOT cap at 75%, its commonly over 90% especially on players. theres a million things constantly effecting regeneration and healing too, the original game play mechanic of lower a shield facing, and deliver torps through it, is non applicable to a fully built level 50 character.
borg ships shouldn't even have shields at all, so i like what im hearing so far. but kinetic needs a total rethink as to how it interacts with shields as well. from the starting point of accepting that there is NO canon establishing that torpedoes are ineffective against shields AT ALL, and that in the past its been nothing more then a game play mechanic in past games that you have followed.
I think 4/4/4 still makes sense. Much better approach to have smaller number of meaningful choices than a mass of insignificant ones.
This is AWESOME!!! Before I started PvPing I had made my characters fairly balanced for ground and space. Due to the need for min-maxing in PvP I had to create builds that were dedicated to space or ground. Under this new system I can enjoy all my toons equally in all situations. Granted my ground dedicated toons will still spend 100K on ground skills and 266 space, whereas my space toons will spend 300k space and 66 ground, but that realistically reflects the captains area of expertise.
I want to close by saying that I for one absolutely love the changes in store for season nine and am looking forward to it more than any update since I started playing!! KUDOS!
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
But the problem with 4/4/4 was that it kills all incentive to do future reps for abilities since you just don't have the slots and the current abilities are already really good, and with the buffs you do more damage with 4 than you do with 8.
Hence why most of us want them to do an 8/8/4 cap with no buffs so things stay exactly as they are now regarding overall powers, those of us who earned T5 on all the reps don't lose anything and we might even want to do future reps if we have 8 passive slots instead of 4.
An ability that currently gives +15% base Weapon Damage, mind you - but it's something where they don't want there to be a single ability that everybody's like...yeah...I'm taking that - which is what the Enhanced Emergency Power to Everything +10% version would be doing - giving that +10% to All non-base Damage...all the time...was basically setting itself up for, no?
Likely why they're also toning down the crit stuff. They basically created four Traits that - well - for most folks would have made the rest and any future Traits useless by comparison.
They've got this deck building thing going - they want folks to run ABC for X, maybe BDF for Y, maybe ACE for Z...etc, etc, etc. They don't want folks just to run the same thing for everything because that particular thing is pretty much the best thing in all cases.
As mentioned, imho though, being able to switch out oodles of things will be nifty - but it's still going to leave that sore thumb of Skills. Then again, how much longer will that matter given what Geko had said about a Skill Revamp and Expansion 2? Is all of this "deck building" stuff with Traits, Rep Traits, Ship Loadouts...a test for what's to come with that Skill Revamp?
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. We could leave it at 8/8/4 with tons of weak powers, but each individual power would be very marginal in terms of its impact, and would feel really unsatisfying to use. I know a number of players have echoed both the "leave us with 8/8/4 " and the "4/4/4 is fine" sentiments, and in this case I just know from experience with similar game systems that 4/4/4 will make for much more interesting and satisfying choices over the long haul.
Yes, it's unpleasant to lose the use of powers. We know that, and we wish we'd launched with the system built for the scalability we desired from it. That's definitely a big takeaway here for us. But in terms of the system we're making here, 4/4/4 is the better design.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Catch 22, sort of.
#1 If we're limited to changing species traits in sector space and ground social maps, it will make story content harder. We could load up on space traits to do the space part of an episode but when it comes time for the ground part we will have little to no ground traits selected and won't be able to swap them around. The other option is to stick with the traits we have already chosen meaning we won't be able to load up on space or ground traits for specific content and it kinda makes the system redundant.
#2 If we can change our species traits whenever we want then that means we could change them in the middle of an STF or PVP and that wouldn't be fair since reputation traits are being limited to sector space and social maps for when when can change them.
I like the idea of not needing species traits respec tokens and being able to change them whenever I want. I have some toons that need respecs anyway but I'll wait until season 9 launches.
Since we have a total of 8 species trait slots, the only way I can see this working is if you limit us to 4 space and 4 ground species traits like the reputation powers, but we start out with access to 3 slots and all others are unlocked at level 10,20,30,40, and 50. Though what levels the trait slots are unlocked would have to be changed so we start with 1 space and 1 ground slot at least and unlock 1 of each at certain levels/ranks.
Some species have a very limited selection of space traits though. For example: my Catian engineer has only 2 space traits, Accurate and Elusive. He has 2 more traits from his career, EPS Manifold Efficiency and Grace Under Fire, for a grand total of 4 space traits to choose from. I've taken all 4 space traits and that left me with 4 slots for ground, so there wouldn't be much change for him being limited to 4 space and 4 ground.
This would cut down on the power creep and make it more fair, and possibly standardize the whole system. My Human tactical captain has a total of 7 space traits compared to the 4 traits my Catian has. If we are able to load up on space traits with the only limit being the 8 trait slots we have, some species would have a greater advantage over others in PVP as well as outperforming others in PVE content for players whose species has a limited selection of traits.
I will also say I have to agree now that going from being able to take a total of 8 ground and 8 space traits with the 4 current reputations, to being able to only choose 4 ground out of 20 and 4 space out of 20 (new reputation included), is really not fair. It should at least be 6 ground and 6 space reputation traits we can take.
The other thing you should be looking at is rep differentiation going forward. With a narrow selection of slots new traits will have to be compelling to use going forward whilst, and at the same time, avoiding power creep within the system itself. With the ability to change traits out quickly you could start putting in more situational selections but that would only go so far.
of course, that introduces another problem, being that you'll only be able to switch traits while going space -> ground, but not ground -> space
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Thank you for giving us reasoning on this.
Personally, I still prefer the current system to the new even with testing on tribble and it giving me more powers. I don't mind 8 small powers instead of 4 larger ones. And from the responses here and on the original blog post I'm not alone.
That being said I'm grateful that you have at least responded to it. Obviously as you say launching the system this way would of cut out the majority of the issues we have with it which is mostly the losing powers we earned and increasing the power creep even more than if it stayed as it is now.
The only thing I want to add is that if 4/4/4/buffs is set in stone which it seems to be, I strongly recommend that you and the other developers come up with more unique powers and/or rewards for future reputations. The examples that we came up with in this thread were:
More Dilithum/marks at T5, VR Doff with preexisting (but rare) or new ability, unique Boffs with new or unique traits, especially space traits, costume pieces, exclusive item set piece or unique item that fits with the reputation.
With the less powers were going to need some incentives to actually do these reps. If there are no items we want, and now no powers were willing to switch out to, we have no incentive to run the reputation. Part of the reason why we supported the 8/8/4 was for that specific reason, more spots to switch out. at 4/4/4 many of us are going to need a much better reason to bother with future reputations if we don't want anything and won't use any of the powers.
Unacceptable.
We worked hard to be where we are today, and no matter how you twist and turn, 4/4/4 devalues the time, effort and resources we have spent leveling up our reputation.
All of which is greately multiplied when you take into account the number of alts some people have.
And while the powers in their current incarnation on holodeck has a subtle effect, its still noticable.
I would rather take a greater diversity of powers than only being able to use a tiny fraction of the ones at my disposal any day, no matter how strong or weak they are.
On top of which it seriously puts a damper on any incentive we veteran players might have on leveling future reputation systems.
Honestly if you refuse to listen to reason and insist on sticking with 4/4/4, then I would really like to know how you intend to compensate us who have maxed out the rep systems for our losses.
I agree. That's now most games do it, and this game isn't set up for a bajillion abilities. If it were rebalanced for it, eh, but for now 4/4/4/4 would be good.
Could we just have 8 ground and 8 space slots for species traits, then? Swapping them every time is just unnecessary work (and a pain in the neck) for what is effectively the same thing. (Same goes for rep actives)
Some folks are definitely unhappy...and they appear to find it unacceptable. Others are happy with the changes and what it will mean for the game going forward.
I had to fix that...cause uh, you are not a "we" - you are an "I"...you can only speak for yourself; unless you have some sort of little thing from a group of folks stating that you can speak for them.
I did not work hard grinding anything up. It wasn't work. It was a game. Sure, it may have taken time - but uh - it's a game, it's entertainment - it's meant to pass the time and grinding reps passed time.
I deleted 8 50s at the end of last year. I leveled up 7 new 50s. I plan on continuing to grind up the Reps on those 7 new toons.
The new incarnations will be more noticeable - we'll be switching them around depending on what we're doing. We'll have to think more about what we're doing perhaps - but that's not a bad thing...is it?
There will be a greater diversity of powers...allowing you to customize our character to what they're doing. I do not think you quite comprehend what diversity means. You go into a restaurant, it can have a pretty diverse menu - all sorts of things...do you order everything? No, you order what you feel like at the moment. That doesn't change that it is a diverse menu. Tada...welcome to the Rep Revamp...the menu's going to get more diverse.
Had to fix that one as well. Again, you don't speak for me...don't bother trying to speak for me. It doesn't put a damper in the least on any plans I have for leveling any and all future reputations.
So what you're saying is, that you have no interest in leveling up two more Ground T5s and two more Space T5s so you can run with either 4x Ground or Space Actives? Counter-Command's adding a third Space Active. Don't want that?
Don't want any of the gear that comes with leveling up a new Rep? Don't want any of the rewards that come with leveling up a new Rep? Don't want that T5 reward?
Don't want to have access to the new Abilities for when you're doing different things in the game?
Hrmmm...curious.
I'm pretty sure they've been listening to the reasonable replies - Hell, they've probably even waded through all the unreasonable replies as well.
Cause uh...yeah...er...anyway...
Why don't you smack the face of the people who played for those passive skills you are limiting?? It would be easier.
After the whole Dyson ships introduction, first ship was blah. I grinded for that. Then Dyson ships I grind only for the Romulan ship and Klingon. I still haven't played those. I actually have 3 ships in my inventory that is a waste.
As for future reps, I'm not playing it like many others. The only reason I played the Dyson one was for the passive skills.
Why don't you and Cryptic just TRIBBLE long time players more. It will be easier. After talking to someone else playing a online game, they let people get to level 70 and keep building the passive skills. Maybe if Cryptic wasn't too lazy making end-user content, just maybe those passive skills will be needed.
Unacceptable.
You have the opportunity including your other developers to make content that meets the difficulty of eng game. Unless you and the developers are too lazy making it or the no CEO or whatever the heck he is. Is too worried about grinding.
Which people are beginning to hate. The 8/8/4 was the best alternative. Next thing we know you all will want to Cap traits.
You know, maybe its just me, but I don't like this part about Species Traits. Now if this was Call of Duty or some other shooter like that, I mean sure, mix everything up. But this is an MMORPG, last time I checked. Or at least it says its one. And, IMHO, that has a certain element of you make you choice and you live with it. Of course, I support being able to change things if you end up not liking what you did, or if the game changes or something like that, but this is your character, your avatar. It should have some element of unchanging about it. This is making your character too much like you ship, don't like a part, swap it out. And to me, that seems wrong.
Nouveau riche LTS member
I know of very few MMORPG's these days that permanently locks you into a choice other than your starting class.
Capping traits has been here since the beginning.
So, start raging at that.
Y'know what, start raging about everything in the game, while you're at it!
Na. I mean a hard cap, like Cryptic saying players only can use 3 traits instead of the 8 or 9 because of power creep. You know it's going happen.
I like these ships in Eve. They have no Cap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G2JZ0j1wQo and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G2JZ0j1wQo
I like the fact they don't cap players traits and learned skills. Hell if you lose a ship without insaurance it will blow. It should be the same in STO, you get your ship blown up. You just end up in a escape pod. Then you end up in spacedock. Next you have to request a new ship if you don't have one in your inventory or buy a new one.
4/4/4 is fine with me, my only question is long term might that become 4/4/4/4 when more active powers are in the system? Otherwise it seems funky to have to switch your active powers based on ground/space.
Why not just 8 passives, and 4 actives?
People like having dedicated characters and because the way the skills and traits are set up you're either great at one or mediocre at both.
Having 8 passives would help ease this transition since you could use all of the space powers that you currently have.
Having the passives limited to 4 /4 gives me no incentive to do future reputation systems unless the gear and passives are FAR superior to existing ones, which would defeat the purpose of having 4 passives.
I can do every piece of existing space content with ease at the moment without any future reputations, considering that this game will continue to tailor content to a "can do it in your sleep" type player, I am confident that any future content in this game can be done with my existing set up and traits.
Why should I bother to grind any future reputation systems?
You said it yourself, people like having specific builds, but switching powers between ground is just tedious and does not actually add anything to the game experience.
The changing of the trait respec is a positive one in my opinion, I would like to see skill respec's follow suit.
______________________________________________________________________
http://imgur.com/wr6iuOz space Rep selection list (on trait tab)
http://imgur.com/sQLVY8C Rep tab with mouse over showing what rep trait does.
______________________________________________________________________
Can we have the trait list change to something like http://imgur.com/sQLVY8C.
I'm thinking along the lines of having the traits displayed horizontally and about the size of what is used in the Rep tab.
or also using the Rep tab and being able to activate traits there and also deactivate them.
What I dislike about the vertical list.:
scrolling through list.
The look of it.
what I liked about the Rep tab layout:
-- clicking the power we wanted active.
mouse over showed what trait does. (the numbers, effects)
I like that look more than the vertical list of traits.
also noticed a bug.
In the Trait Tab under the space rep traits:
all space rep traits are incorrect.... that show the numbers of what it's supposed to do. here: http://imgur.com/wr6iuOz
This is while I'm in the New Undine space war zone.
This is wonderful news Hawk, thanks for these changes, I just have two questions. Firstly, have you thought about allowing us to respec anytime while putting a cooldown on another respec? For example, putting a 15 minute cooldown on reputation trait and species trait respecs would significantly limit the ability to exploit battle cloak to cycle traits. Additionally, it would still allow players to run through ground content before jumping into space content (and vice versa).
Secondly, could you please put an Energy Credit cost on respeccing species traits? It would place a sink on Energy Credits and it would give players more of a value on having Energy Credits. I think that would also be quite nice for something like a skill tree respec token: 2,500,000 Energy Credits for a skill tree respec, 25,000 for a species trait respec, and free reputation trait respecs.
Yeah, that would be nice to have in the long run. I really hope they don't drop us down to 4 space species traits and 4 ground species traits. Reputation traits are one thing, I can work around that fact, but species traits - especially for Ground PvP - have greatly enhanced the character customization options within the ground game.
Capping traits was a very wise decision from a development perspective. Having what was effectively an unlimited number of traits over time was a surefire way to hinder the ability for new players to get up to speed with older level 50s. 4/4/4 may seem limiting, I even disliked it at first, but I decided I liked the change the more I thought about it. The new system will significantly limit the power creep and that is something we badly needed ingame.
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Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)