I've been giving it more thought, trying to think outside the box, and this came to me:
What if new rep tier rewards were something other than passives and powers? What if the rewards were something else, or a mix thereof?
You could reward all sorts of things -- unique gear, rare DOFF or BOFFS, ship skins, costume packs, etc. A mix of different things that would be appealing and provide motivation to achieve, but greatly reduces power creep because they're not powers.
If power creep is the issue motivating these changes, instead of changing the fundamental structure of the rep system and limiting the rewards, just change the rewards to something else. This would greatly reducing power creep, yet still provide people with desirable rewards they can use, and in turn, makes grinding the rep feel worthwhile.
THis is actually a really good idea. With the Dyson rep you get a boff at T5 for the reward so essentially you could just get that instead of powers. And you could get uncommon/rare/very rare doffs with either new abilities or old ones just in a new doff that would be easier to get than other ways.
I don't see ship skins or costumes working as they like to make money off of that, but doffs, boffs, and maybe minor costume items could work. Even maybe some unique items like a unique tribble (cue the hate on those lol), combat pet, non-combat pet, or just other things than powers that we won't use.
THis is actually a really good idea. With the Dyson rep you get a boff at T5 for the reward so essentially you could just get that instead of powers. And you could get uncommon/rare/very rare doffs with either new abilities or old ones just in a new doff that would be easier to get than other ways.
I don't see ship skins or costumes working as they like to make money off of that, but doffs, boffs, and maybe minor costume items could work. Even maybe some unique items like a unique tribble (cue the hate on those lol), combat pet, non-combat pet, or just other things than powers that we won't use.
Like a choice of set items per tier ? Choose one reputation project item for free per tier?
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I've been giving it more thought, trying to think outside the box, and this came to me:
What if new rep tier rewards were something other than passives and powers? What if the rewards were something else, or a mix thereof?
You could reward all sorts of things -- unique gear, rare DOFF or BOFFS, ship skins, costume packs, etc. A mix of different things that would be appealing and provide motivation to achieve, but greatly reduces power creep because they're not powers.
If power creep is the issue motivating these changes, instead of changing the fundamental structure of the rep system and limiting the rewards, just change the rewards to something else. This would greatly reducing power creep, yet still provide people with desirable rewards they can use, and in turn, makes grinding the rep feel worthwhile.
Like a choice of set items per tier ? Choose one reputation project item for free per tier?
Well we kinda already get that now as part of the reputation revamp will give app reputations the same thing that dyson had where when you finish a rep project you automatically get a store item. As far as giving a set item. It would be nice. no powers but have a free set item when you hit T5 but i'm not sure cryptic would be okay with that.
but 1 set item out of 6 since every rep has had at least 2 isn't that bad. I couldn't see one per tier though but it would be a nice incentive to do it.
Also easily disproven by many other aspects in the game.
There is a hard cap on the number of shields a ship can use. It's exactly one. (Well, at least since they fixed that shield exploit thingy). And yet, people "grind" for sets that contain shields. It's an incredibly weak argument. Sometimes I think people just bring it up to fight the new system, a pseudo-argument to scare Cryptic "Oh god, players will stop buying Zen, the game will die!". But maybe some people really don't realize that a lot of stuff in the game is slotted and we yet hunt for new stuff to put in that slot. An item can be interested even if it doesn't add to everything you got already.
Heck, think of all those ships people are going after - you can only fly one ship at a time, and you can't tell me that every new ship was better than the previous one - different, yes, better?
Well it's an interesting argument, but a logical fallacy unfortunately. Traits are not ships or gear. They do not have near the level of impact that either do. Flying a different ship can be a completely different play experience. Having an extra +4 crit versus +20 damage, not so much. And I dare say that most people, once they have a set and gear they like, have no desire to change things unless there is a clear and obvious improvement, which for most characters in most situations simply isn't the case. The majority of people right now grind rep for the tier bonuses and that's it. Maybe they have one or two characters that might benefit from some of the gear, so they might grind a bit just for them, but certainly not for all their characters. Why would you grind for gear that you'll never use or is inferior to what you already have? You won't. And why would you grind for abilities/powers that give you no discernable improvement, or require you to give up something you're currently using? You won't.
To use your example, if I have a Mk XII Covariant Shield and like it, why would I spend dozens of hours grinding rep to get a Mk XII Resilient Shield? Both are comparable to one another, there is no significant improvement to be gained -- you'd essentially be swapping shield hit points for regeneration rate. Is that minor difference worth grinding out to T4 or T5? Tens of hours of your play time over something like 4 weeks? I don't think so. I'm sure there are some that will, but I don't think most will. I think most will look at it, say "it's just not worth it" and move on. But that's my opinion as an MMO player for 10 years. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think I am, but I guess anything's possible.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
40500 dilithium isn't enough motivation for you? plus however much you get on the way up the tiers from the XP projects themselves
3 days / 3 characters you can get 48,000 dilithium. If the characters are speced right. Thats about 3 hours of grind. I think it might be possible to do it in a hour. Once this new system takes plus why work up the reputation system that Cryptic want when you can get a lot more in a lot less time. You aren't getting any benefits from future reputation systems including the one coming up. Courtesy of the big Nerf 4/4/4.
3 days / 3 characters you can get 48,000 dilithium. If the characters are speced right. Thats about 3 hours of grind. I think it might be possible to do it in a hour. Once this new system takes plus why work up the reputation system that Cryptic want when you can get a lot more in a lot less time. You aren't getting any benefits from future reputation systems including the one coming up. Courtesy of the big Nerf 4/4/4.
For me, I like maxing reps because of the big dil reward. It also opens up more rep powers to choose from as well as a lot of various equipment and items to choose from if I want to try out different sets and things for different ships. More available options is always good for me instead of artificially limiting myself because I just don't want something beyond a certain point. So I do it just in case I might want to try something later.
3 days / 3 characters you can get 48,000 dilithium. if you the characters are speced right. thats about 3 hours of grind. i think it might be possible to do it in a hour.
i can do it in about 4 hours just using EC...that's not the point; if you're doing all that stuff anyway, might as well do one more little mission of your choice, get about 2 day's worth of marks, then slot and fill the projects
remember, with this upcoming change to the rep system, the first piece of content you do each day that awards reputation marks will award bonus marks in addition to what it normally awards, so getting 2 day's worth each day won't be much of an issue
out of all the new undine missions they added, i'm sure there's going to be at least one that can be completed in less than 5 minutes, unless they timegate all of them like the damn mirror invasion, which i really wouldn't put past them
besides, even if you can only use 4 ground/space passives now, it still doesn't hurt to have them all unlocked - just in case; same with the gear and store items
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
And then once you get to T2? What's your motivation to getting to T5? None.
Let's pause for a sec and dwell on what I was replying to.
The problem with putting any kind of cap on the number of abilities you can have active at any time is that it completely removes any incentive to do new reputation content.
You were suggesting I wouldn't have any incentive to do the reputation at all. Even to T2.
I'm pointing out that there's incentive to do T2.
Ok, pause done. Moving right along with your question ...
Beyond T2, for me, there's more incentive:
1- The Turret that unlocks at T4.
2- Once I'm at T4, I may like the full set (Need to confirm, but have read posts that it boosts phasers, and I have two characters that exclusively use phasers, so there's incentive right there).
3- There's only 4 active powers available, and 2 are ground related 2 are space related. For further maximized customization there's going to be an incentive to get at least 2 more active space and 2 more active ground.
Oh and 4- The two most recent reps, Voth and now Undine, have 4pc sets which include warp cores/singularities in the bonuses. If I'm interested in that set's 4pc bonus, I have incentive to complete the entire set. In other words not all of my characters are going to bother with Fleet store stuff, depending on what I want and like.
So Undine is probably the wrong Rep to make your point with. For me, it's got a lot of incentives.
To really sum it up ...
The changes to the Rep Grind and the way it works are gong to make it very casual friendly to complete these. With more marks available for purchasing stuff from the store, with the unlocks coming during the entire process of cllmbing the ladder.
Undine offers me things I'm interested in. There may be a future rep that doesn't quite do that much for me. But then again, it might be offering things to other people that they are interested in.
The suggestion that future reps will be ignored is simply not true. The very next rep is offering me stuff I want.
besides, even if you can only use 4 ground/space passives now, it still doesn't hurt to have them all unlocked - just in case; same with the gear and store items
I actually think it's a waste of time. The only way i would do another reputation system is if the passive trait is a space trait, not including the new reputation which i don't feel is beneficial to my type of build. frankly, if my limit is just 4/4/4. Even if I have to wait a year. There is no point.
I'm already looking for Star Trek Online alternative. Although I love Star Trek Online and will continue to support it. I don't feel its right to play a game that a company will limit something drastically a player worked a lot of hours to get.
This looks interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meLPwWxjVRM including Space Engineers and Kerbal Space Program. I played Eve Online also so I can always get back to that if I can get my computer setup to run the client. They don't cap long running players.
I don't feel its right to play a game that a company will limit something drastically a player worked a lot of hours to get.
hey, it took me over a year to get all my 24 characters fully maxed out in rep, most of which only got done after the sponsorship tokens were released...that's a crapton of hours devoted to just rep alone, and i only just got the last few maxed out about a week ago, so i only get a little over a month to enjoy all those powers
i'm just as annoyed as anyone else by this, but i'll put up with it just like i put up with all of cryptic's other crackheaded ideas, because that kind of time devoted...i'm not about to just throw it all out the window because some *insert preferred remark here* decided this was a good idea
i'm just stubborn like that; i may take a break here and there, but nothing short of the apocalypse itself will tear me away completely
but if you really want an alternative space sim to devote some time to, check out star citizen; if you ever played wing commander, the same guy who worked on that series is working on this, and so far it looks pretty damn spectacular
be warned, though; they're pushing the envelope with the graphics, so it'll require a monster rig...but it also won't be released for another 2 years or so - plenty of time to upgrade if you decide to give it a try
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
hey, it took me over a year to get all my 24 characters fully maxed out in rep, most of which only got done after the sponsorship tokens were released...that's a crapton of hours devoted to just rep alone, and i only just got the last few maxed out about a week ago, so i only get a little over a month to enjoy all those powers
i'm just as annoyed as anyone else by this, but i'll put up with it just like i put up with all of cryptic's other crackheaded ideas, because that kind of time devoted...i'm not about to just throw it all out the window because some *insert preferred remark here* decided this was a good idea
i'm just stubborn like that; i may take a break here and there, but nothing short of the apocalypse itself will tear me away completely
but if you really want an alternative space sim to devote some time to, check out star citizen; if you ever played wing commander, the same guy who worked on that series is working on this, and so far it looks pretty damn spectacular
be warned, though; they're pushing the envelope with the graphics, so it'll require a monster rig...but it also won't be released for another 2 years or so - plenty of time to upgrade if you decide to give it a try
I have a nice rig and planning to get a GTX 780 with 6 gigs of ram - 2x cards. Possibly a gaming keyboard. This move by Cryptic is a crack headed move. I can't deal with that.
Let's pause for a sec and dwell on what I was replying to.
You were suggesting I wouldn't have any incentive to do the reputation at all. Even to T2.
I'm pointing out that there's incentive to do T2.
Ok, pause done. Moving right along with your question ...
Beyond T2, for me, there's more incentive:
1- The Turret that unlocks at T4.
2- Once I'm at T4, I may like the full set (Need to confirm, but have read posts that it boosts phasers, and I have two characters that exclusively use phasers, so there's incentive right there).
3- There's only 4 active powers available, and 2 are ground related 2 are space related. For further maximized customization there's going to be an incentive to get at least 2 more active space and 2 more active ground.
Oh and 4- The two most recent reps, Voth and now Undine, have 4pc sets which include warp cores/singularities in the bonuses. If I'm interested in that set's 4pc bonus, I have incentive to complete the entire set. In other words not all of my characters are going to bother with Fleet store stuff, depending on what I want and like.
So Undine is probably the wrong Rep to make your point with. For me, it's got a lot of incentives.
To really sum it up ...
The changes to the Rep Grind and the way it works are gong to make it very casual friendly to complete these. With more marks available for purchasing stuff from the store, with the unlocks coming during the entire process of cllmbing the ladder.
Undine offers me things I'm interested in. There may be a future rep that doesn't quite do that much for me. But then again, it might be offering things to other people that they are interested in.
The suggestion that future reps will be ignored is simply not true. The very next rep is offering me stuff I want.
Sorry, but you will be the exception, not the rule. And I think you've got it backwards. It's going to change the rep system to something only the die hard hardcores will devote any significant time to. For most people, for the casual players, they simply do not have the luxury or willingness to invest vast amounts of time and energy into endeavors that yield little reward. So while you clearly have the time and desire, most people will not, especially if they have already invested significantly into other reputations and already have comparable traits unlocked in addition to rep and/or fleet gear.
I get it, you think the new system is hunky dorey. I do not -- it solves a problem that IMO doesn't need solving and will cause a massive paradigm shift in the endgame that's not going to be for the better. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I have no desire to defend or respond to further strawman, logical fallacies, or hypothetical arguments.
Sorry, but you will be the exception, not the rule.
I seriously doubt that. I realize it's two other blog posts ago and the math and mechanics were a bit heavy, but they really are making the entire reputation grind way more casual friendly. It's going to just be a whole lot easier to do new reps overall.
For most people, for the casual players, they simply do not have the luxury or willingness to invest vast amounts of time and energy into endeavors that yield little reward.
1 15 minute run per day, per Rep. Will take about a month. And will be so much easier on your own personal resources. This is about as casual friendly as I think they're willing to make it.
The people who are actually upset about the changes to the system (from two blogs ago) are the hardcore grinders who now can't go back to back to back to back, as the hourly's run out. It's a longer time gate. But it's way easier on the casual player.
Anyways, I'm not the only person on these forums who's looked at the Undine rewards and been interested in chasing the gear. And I'm rather confident that new reputations will have more gear that others like to chase.
There is no incentive to go T5 on everything, there is some incentives to reach T4 but T5 is now purely a Store Unlock.
I'm fine with that, since some new reps are going to have store unlocks I want, and other new reps are going to have store unlocks you want.
That's the thing. People keep posting that this will be absolute. That people absolutely will not grind out new reps.
And that's complete BS.
And the gear chase is always going to over-ride the passive trait chase.
You might have all the gear you want. That doesn't apply to everyone. And again, the absolute nature of some of the statements people are making is kind of crazy. It suggests that this change is going to prevent Cryptic from ever making another console/set/hybrid weapon/costume that you'll EVER want. We all know that isn't true.
It's one thing to say you don't like the change. It's another to suggest you'll never ever ever ever grind another rep resource and try to get something from the rep system ever ever ever again.
I seriously doubt that. I realize it's two other blog posts ago and the math and mechanics were a bit heavy, but they really are making the entire reputation grind way more casual friendly. It's going to just be a whole lot easier to do new reps overall.
1 15 minute run per day, per Rep. Will take about a month. And will be so much easier on your own personal resources. This is about as casual friendly as I think they're willing to make it.
The people who are actually upset about the changes to the system (from two blogs ago) are the hardcore grinders who now can't go back to back to back to back, as the hourly's run out. It's a longer time gate. But it's way easier on the casual player.
Anyways, I'm not the only person on these forums who's looked at the Undine rewards and been interested in chasing the gear. And I'm rather confident that new reputations will have more gear that others like to chase.
I'm fine with that, since some new reps are going to have store unlocks I want, and other new reps are going to have store unlocks you want.
That's the thing. People keep posting that this will be absolute. That people absolutely will not grind out new reps.
And that's complete BS.
And the gear chase is always going to over-ride the passive trait chase.
You might have all the gear you want. That doesn't apply to everyone. And again, the absolute nature of some of the statements people are making is kind of crazy. It suggests that this change is going to prevent Cryptic from ever making another console/set/hybrid weapon/costume that you'll EVER want. We all know that isn't true.
It's one thing to say you don't like the change. It's another to suggest you'll never ever ever ever grind another rep resource and try to get something from the rep system ever ever ever again.
But you're missing the point, and the only one speaking in hyperbole is you. No one has stated emphatically that no one will ever run the reps. Cause that's silly, of course there will be those that do. The bigger question is how many compared to those that do them now. That's the concern. Right now there is an incentive to do every rep from T1 to T5 -- each tier you unlock grants you a power that you can use. Every. Single. One. So naturally people have the incentive to play, and play, and play to go all the way to T5. Gear is irrelevant. Maybe there's some in there they want, maybe not, doesn't matter as they're going to T5 to get all the powers because it means their characters have gotten better. Gotten stronger. Even if it's just by a little bit. That investment in time translates into a better character with more abilities.
The new system does not do this. The new system locks you into a fixed level of performance that can alter and fluctuate, but one that does not allow you to actually get stronger over time once you have reached the maximum number of abilities. So while the current system has people going all the way to T5, the new system will not. Some might go to T2, some might go to T4, and yes, some might go to T5. And there will be a LOT that don't even get to T1. What we're going to see is a lot of people doing the content when it's new, and then a rapid steady decline as people get bored and realize there is nothing worthwhile in the reps for them to work towards. Are you ok with having 25% less people doing rep content? How about 50%? What if it turns out to be 75% after a week? We are definitely going to see attrition. This isn't speculation, it will definitely happen, and you yourself have admitted as much. The only question is how much, and what will be the overall impact to the game and the community. This topic has not been addressed. And it should be. A significant reduction in the number of people playing rep content will make it increasingly inaccessible. No one is going to want to wait 10, 15, or maybe even 20 minutes to queue up for a team because the zone is empty. And this could realistically happen. This is my concern, and it's a valid one.
So yeah, cherry pick my words, twist them around, inject some strawman arguments, and gloss right over the important parts. But the truth is it's going to happen. Anyone who doesn't see that is being willfully obtuse. As I said in my first post, I'm not angry, I'm not mad, I don't feel cheated. I'm not going to rage quit or rant endlessly. I'm expressing a valid concern over an issue that I do not think has been given enough consideration. We have been asked for our feedback and I'm giving it, in a rational, considerate, and constructive way.
It's not about what YOU will do, it's what will the community as a whole will do. And whether you believe it or not, you and I are NOT the typical STO players. So while you are focused solely on yourself and what you would do, I'm looking at the big picture and what the general STO playerbase will do, as they are the majority, not us.
If you want my own personal experience, I don't really care one way or the other. On one hand I'll miss getting extra powers and feeling as though my character is improving. But on the other hand I certainly won't miss having another rep to grind on all my characters. I might do it on one, maybe, if there's gear I want for a particular character, but the days of doing it for every single character, from T1 to T5 will be gone. So from that perspective it's a good thing for me. Gives me time to do other things outside of STO. But like I said, it's not about me. Having a lot less people doing content is bad for the playerbase as a whole, and it's bad for the game. Which is why I posted my feedback and said what I said. Either way it won't affect me much, at least not directly. But less people playing is bad for the game as a whole -- it means less people to play with, and more importantly, less revenue. So I have a right to be concerned when I see a half-baked idea being unnecessarily shoehorned in seemingly without any serious consideration for the possible consequences.
No one has stated emphatically that no one will ever run the reps.
YOU did.
The problem with putting any kind of cap on the number of abilities you can have active at any time is that it completely removes any incentive to do new reputation content.
See. That's you. Saying that this change has completely removed any incentive to do new reputation content.
What exactly did you mean by that?
The phrase "completely removes any incentive" means ... ?
See. That's you. Saying that this change has completely removed any incentive to do new reputation content.
What exactly did you mean by that?
The phrase "completely removes any incentive" means ... ?
I think he mean exactly that. Why would someone do any new reputation if the skills are not that much(because Cryptic will lower them if any person says power creep)? Additionally, why spend 100's of hours to get to tier 5 if there is no real chance to utilize 2 or 3 of the traits. Also, why think there is a point to improve a character overall build space o ground. Must of the incentives you can grind a few hours or 2 days to gett.
So, there is NO POINT with the new reputation system. If the cap was higher I would but no. I have 3 characters at full Tier 5 on all 4 reputations. So, it's not like I wouldn't do it. I will not try to build a character and not be able to use a skill or buff, since its suppose tobe a learned skill or buff.
A young teenage girl was about to finish her first year of college. She considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat but her father was a rather staunch Republican.
One day she was challenging her father on his beliefs and his opposition to taxes and welfare programs. He stopped her and asked her how she was doing in school.
She answered that she had a 4.0 GPA but it was really tough. She had to study all the time, never had time to go out and party. She didnt have time for a boyfriend and didnt really have many college friends because of spending all her time studying.
He asked, How is your friend Mary. She replied that Mary was barely getting by. She had a 2.0 GPA, never studied, but was very popular on campus, went to all the parties all the time. Why she often didnt show up for classes because she was hung over.
Dad then asked his daughter why she didnt go to the Deans office and ask why she couldnt take 1.0 off her 4.0 and give it to her friend who only had a 2.0. That way they would both have a 3.0 GPA.
The daughter angrily fired back, That wouldnt be fair, I worked really hard for mine and Mary has done nothing.
The father slowly smiled and said, Welcome to the Republican Party.
...if none of the traits in a new rep line appeal to you; if none are worth swapping out one of the traits you're currently using, then there is no point in grinding out the content to T5. You'll do it a few times just because it's new and then never go back there again. Sure there will always be a few people that are completists, but they are the small minority, not the majority.
Which is NOT the same as saying "No one will do rep content. Ever" False equivalency.
I also said, in the very same paragraph:
And still, it's false. There are still incentives.
1) Wanting to have the reputation finished.
2) Wanting a specific reputation ability to choose from.
3) Wainting access to specific reputation items
4) Earning Dilithium
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
And still, it's false. There are still incentives.
1) Wanting to have the reputation finished.
2) Wanting a specific reputation ability to choose from.
3) Wainting access to specific reputation items
4) Earning Dilithium
Which, as I have pointed out a number of times now, will appeal to some, but not most people and likely not all of your characters, leading to a drastic reduction in people playing the content compared to now.
As f2pdrakron has pointed out, we've been down this road before. We know exactly what happens when there is little to no perceived benefit in doing a rep tier -- people don't do it. History is simply going to repeat itself and by then it will be too late because the system will already be in place and it won't be feasible to remove it. The only recourse Cryptic will have is to make the new rep abilities significantly stronger than the others or grant other unique bonuses the other reps do not have in order to entice people to do it, which completely invalidates the purpose of the new system.
Which, as I have pointed out a number of times now, will appeal to some, but not most people and likely not all of your characters, leading to a drastic reduction in people playing the content compared to now.
Which also applies to the passives. Why do you believe these appeal to everyone? Why would it be needed on every character?
It's not like you need another 5 % crit bonus or whatever to play Startrek Online. MAybe you grind Omega to get the free healing power from the borg set, and then you say - oh, well, the rest is nice to have, but this is all I need to run existing content.
The onyl time it absolutely becomes needed if we keep the power creep going, if we stack reputation passives forever, and at some point, you have on hope in playing new content because you won't be able to contribute without it.
Of course, that is probably also the time no one creates alt characters anymore, because the prospect of grinding it all over again, using old content... *shudder*
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I am going to point out something that happened with Legacy of Romulus and Tholian Reputation.
There was no Dilithium reward or Marks at T5 originally, the moment players realized that they apparently stop at T4 because the T5 active was (and is) utter rubbish and the sets are (and are) utter rubbish.
This was not a "slight oversight" because people taken over a month to get there and then Cryptic did nothing for also about a month or so, then it was added ... why? because there was little incentive to reach T5, then the payout was added and apparently this ceased to be a issue.
But now is because once again, there is little incentive to reach T5 in Tholian Reputation, I would say there is likely little incentive to reach T5 in Undine Rep because right now we have 2 space, 2 ground active powers and we will then have 2 space, 3 ground, 4 total and this will only get worst from this point on.
We will trade one type of power creep for another type of power creep when Cryptic will start to make further reputation passives more attractive that older ones because that WILL happen when metrics start to show up, intentions as fine and all but really, moment metrics starts to show something, they will start to change things to "herd us" into it, that would not been a problem except they pretty much ignore older content that gets just left behind.
So, this was the result running this not seriously. I was able to pound some the new content and also take out cubes while being attacked by other cubes, spheres, and probes easily. I took direct hits and nothing major happen. When I died it was a stupid death which I can easily not repeat.
I say re-instate the old level of reputation system with that as the base cap. Leave what people earned alone.
On Holodeck if live, I add Jevonite to the mix and pretty much run through the content still. No stacking, no power creep, no I'm going get over. The content level is super low for elite.
It's not the power creep it's the content. They could had kept the hard limit to the level the reputation systems are now. Cryptic should really be focusing on the content and make elite really elite or even super elite. Then the passive can be fully used. Get people from this 4/4/4 hard limit. Which is the main complaint.
Why would someone do any new reputation if the skills are not that much(because Cryptic will lower them if any person says power creep)? Additionally, why spend 100's of hours to get to tier 5 if there is no real chance to utilize 2 or 3 of the traits.
For.
The.
Gear.
Now let's hear from more people rocking kinetic cutting beams, Klingon Honor Guard Costumes, and 4 pc. Dyson sets how there's no incentive to bother with the rep system in the future.
Comments
THis is actually a really good idea. With the Dyson rep you get a boff at T5 for the reward so essentially you could just get that instead of powers. And you could get uncommon/rare/very rare doffs with either new abilities or old ones just in a new doff that would be easier to get than other ways.
I don't see ship skins or costumes working as they like to make money off of that, but doffs, boffs, and maybe minor costume items could work. Even maybe some unique items like a unique tribble (cue the hate on those lol), combat pet, non-combat pet, or just other things than powers that we won't use.
Like a choice of set items per tier ? Choose one reputation project item for free per tier?
Well we kinda already get that now as part of the reputation revamp will give app reputations the same thing that dyson had where when you finish a rep project you automatically get a store item. As far as giving a set item. It would be nice. no powers but have a free set item when you hit T5 but i'm not sure cryptic would be okay with that.
but 1 set item out of 6 since every rep has had at least 2 isn't that bad. I couldn't see one per tier though but it would be a nice incentive to do it.
And then once you get to T2? What's your motivation to getting to T5? None. So you stop playing the content. See how this works?
Well it's an interesting argument, but a logical fallacy unfortunately. Traits are not ships or gear. They do not have near the level of impact that either do. Flying a different ship can be a completely different play experience. Having an extra +4 crit versus +20 damage, not so much. And I dare say that most people, once they have a set and gear they like, have no desire to change things unless there is a clear and obvious improvement, which for most characters in most situations simply isn't the case. The majority of people right now grind rep for the tier bonuses and that's it. Maybe they have one or two characters that might benefit from some of the gear, so they might grind a bit just for them, but certainly not for all their characters. Why would you grind for gear that you'll never use or is inferior to what you already have? You won't. And why would you grind for abilities/powers that give you no discernable improvement, or require you to give up something you're currently using? You won't.
To use your example, if I have a Mk XII Covariant Shield and like it, why would I spend dozens of hours grinding rep to get a Mk XII Resilient Shield? Both are comparable to one another, there is no significant improvement to be gained -- you'd essentially be swapping shield hit points for regeneration rate. Is that minor difference worth grinding out to T4 or T5? Tens of hours of your play time over something like 4 weeks? I don't think so. I'm sure there are some that will, but I don't think most will. I think most will look at it, say "it's just not worth it" and move on. But that's my opinion as an MMO player for 10 years. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think I am, but I guess anything's possible.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
You can get more if you do the voth battlezone I think. But Undine rep items will be very powerful.
Honestly, no. There are much more enjoyable ways to earn dilithium for a lot less time and effort.
like captfabulous said, that's not really that great of a reward as you can earn it in a few hours of STFS without much trouble.
3 days / 3 characters you can get 48,000 dilithium. If the characters are speced right. Thats about 3 hours of grind. I think it might be possible to do it in a hour. Once this new system takes plus why work up the reputation system that Cryptic want when you can get a lot more in a lot less time. You aren't getting any benefits from future reputation systems including the one coming up. Courtesy of the big Nerf 4/4/4.
For me, I like maxing reps because of the big dil reward. It also opens up more rep powers to choose from as well as a lot of various equipment and items to choose from if I want to try out different sets and things for different ships. More available options is always good for me instead of artificially limiting myself because I just don't want something beyond a certain point. So I do it just in case I might want to try something later.
remember, with this upcoming change to the rep system, the first piece of content you do each day that awards reputation marks will award bonus marks in addition to what it normally awards, so getting 2 day's worth each day won't be much of an issue
out of all the new undine missions they added, i'm sure there's going to be at least one that can be completed in less than 5 minutes, unless they timegate all of them like the damn mirror invasion, which i really wouldn't put past them
besides, even if you can only use 4 ground/space passives now, it still doesn't hurt to have them all unlocked - just in case; same with the gear and store items
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Let's pause for a sec and dwell on what I was replying to.
You were suggesting I wouldn't have any incentive to do the reputation at all. Even to T2.
I'm pointing out that there's incentive to do T2.
Ok, pause done. Moving right along with your question ...
Beyond T2, for me, there's more incentive:
1- The Turret that unlocks at T4.
2- Once I'm at T4, I may like the full set (Need to confirm, but have read posts that it boosts phasers, and I have two characters that exclusively use phasers, so there's incentive right there).
3- There's only 4 active powers available, and 2 are ground related 2 are space related. For further maximized customization there's going to be an incentive to get at least 2 more active space and 2 more active ground.
Oh and 4- The two most recent reps, Voth and now Undine, have 4pc sets which include warp cores/singularities in the bonuses. If I'm interested in that set's 4pc bonus, I have incentive to complete the entire set. In other words not all of my characters are going to bother with Fleet store stuff, depending on what I want and like.
So Undine is probably the wrong Rep to make your point with. For me, it's got a lot of incentives.
To really sum it up ...
The changes to the Rep Grind and the way it works are gong to make it very casual friendly to complete these. With more marks available for purchasing stuff from the store, with the unlocks coming during the entire process of cllmbing the ladder.
Undine offers me things I'm interested in. There may be a future rep that doesn't quite do that much for me. But then again, it might be offering things to other people that they are interested in.
The suggestion that future reps will be ignored is simply not true. The very next rep is offering me stuff I want.
I actually think it's a waste of time. The only way i would do another reputation system is if the passive trait is a space trait, not including the new reputation which i don't feel is beneficial to my type of build. frankly, if my limit is just 4/4/4. Even if I have to wait a year. There is no point.
I'm already looking for Star Trek Online alternative. Although I love Star Trek Online and will continue to support it. I don't feel its right to play a game that a company will limit something drastically a player worked a lot of hours to get.
This looks interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meLPwWxjVRM including Space Engineers and Kerbal Space Program. I played Eve Online also so I can always get back to that if I can get my computer setup to run the client. They don't cap long running players.
i'm just as annoyed as anyone else by this, but i'll put up with it just like i put up with all of cryptic's other crackheaded ideas, because that kind of time devoted...i'm not about to just throw it all out the window because some *insert preferred remark here* decided this was a good idea
i'm just stubborn like that; i may take a break here and there, but nothing short of the apocalypse itself will tear me away completely
but if you really want an alternative space sim to devote some time to, check out star citizen; if you ever played wing commander, the same guy who worked on that series is working on this, and so far it looks pretty damn spectacular
be warned, though; they're pushing the envelope with the graphics, so it'll require a monster rig...but it also won't be released for another 2 years or so - plenty of time to upgrade if you decide to give it a try
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I have a nice rig and planning to get a GTX 780 with 6 gigs of ram - 2x cards. Possibly a gaming keyboard. This move by Cryptic is a crack headed move. I can't deal with that.
They're being shifted into a region non-specific pool of traits, of which you can have 4 active at any given time.
Sorry, but you will be the exception, not the rule. And I think you've got it backwards. It's going to change the rep system to something only the die hard hardcores will devote any significant time to. For most people, for the casual players, they simply do not have the luxury or willingness to invest vast amounts of time and energy into endeavors that yield little reward. So while you clearly have the time and desire, most people will not, especially if they have already invested significantly into other reputations and already have comparable traits unlocked in addition to rep and/or fleet gear.
I get it, you think the new system is hunky dorey. I do not -- it solves a problem that IMO doesn't need solving and will cause a massive paradigm shift in the endgame that's not going to be for the better. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I have no desire to defend or respond to further strawman, logical fallacies, or hypothetical arguments.
I seriously doubt that. I realize it's two other blog posts ago and the math and mechanics were a bit heavy, but they really are making the entire reputation grind way more casual friendly. It's going to just be a whole lot easier to do new reps overall.
1 15 minute run per day, per Rep. Will take about a month. And will be so much easier on your own personal resources. This is about as casual friendly as I think they're willing to make it.
The people who are actually upset about the changes to the system (from two blogs ago) are the hardcore grinders who now can't go back to back to back to back, as the hourly's run out. It's a longer time gate. But it's way easier on the casual player.
Anyways, I'm not the only person on these forums who's looked at the Undine rewards and been interested in chasing the gear. And I'm rather confident that new reputations will have more gear that others like to chase.
I'm fine with that, since some new reps are going to have store unlocks I want, and other new reps are going to have store unlocks you want.
That's the thing. People keep posting that this will be absolute. That people absolutely will not grind out new reps.
And that's complete BS.
And the gear chase is always going to over-ride the passive trait chase.
You might have all the gear you want. That doesn't apply to everyone. And again, the absolute nature of some of the statements people are making is kind of crazy. It suggests that this change is going to prevent Cryptic from ever making another console/set/hybrid weapon/costume that you'll EVER want. We all know that isn't true.
It's one thing to say you don't like the change. It's another to suggest you'll never ever ever ever grind another rep resource and try to get something from the rep system ever ever ever again.
But you're missing the point, and the only one speaking in hyperbole is you. No one has stated emphatically that no one will ever run the reps. Cause that's silly, of course there will be those that do. The bigger question is how many compared to those that do them now. That's the concern. Right now there is an incentive to do every rep from T1 to T5 -- each tier you unlock grants you a power that you can use. Every. Single. One. So naturally people have the incentive to play, and play, and play to go all the way to T5. Gear is irrelevant. Maybe there's some in there they want, maybe not, doesn't matter as they're going to T5 to get all the powers because it means their characters have gotten better. Gotten stronger. Even if it's just by a little bit. That investment in time translates into a better character with more abilities.
The new system does not do this. The new system locks you into a fixed level of performance that can alter and fluctuate, but one that does not allow you to actually get stronger over time once you have reached the maximum number of abilities. So while the current system has people going all the way to T5, the new system will not. Some might go to T2, some might go to T4, and yes, some might go to T5. And there will be a LOT that don't even get to T1. What we're going to see is a lot of people doing the content when it's new, and then a rapid steady decline as people get bored and realize there is nothing worthwhile in the reps for them to work towards. Are you ok with having 25% less people doing rep content? How about 50%? What if it turns out to be 75% after a week? We are definitely going to see attrition. This isn't speculation, it will definitely happen, and you yourself have admitted as much. The only question is how much, and what will be the overall impact to the game and the community. This topic has not been addressed. And it should be. A significant reduction in the number of people playing rep content will make it increasingly inaccessible. No one is going to want to wait 10, 15, or maybe even 20 minutes to queue up for a team because the zone is empty. And this could realistically happen. This is my concern, and it's a valid one.
So yeah, cherry pick my words, twist them around, inject some strawman arguments, and gloss right over the important parts. But the truth is it's going to happen. Anyone who doesn't see that is being willfully obtuse. As I said in my first post, I'm not angry, I'm not mad, I don't feel cheated. I'm not going to rage quit or rant endlessly. I'm expressing a valid concern over an issue that I do not think has been given enough consideration. We have been asked for our feedback and I'm giving it, in a rational, considerate, and constructive way.
It's not about what YOU will do, it's what will the community as a whole will do. And whether you believe it or not, you and I are NOT the typical STO players. So while you are focused solely on yourself and what you would do, I'm looking at the big picture and what the general STO playerbase will do, as they are the majority, not us.
If you want my own personal experience, I don't really care one way or the other. On one hand I'll miss getting extra powers and feeling as though my character is improving. But on the other hand I certainly won't miss having another rep to grind on all my characters. I might do it on one, maybe, if there's gear I want for a particular character, but the days of doing it for every single character, from T1 to T5 will be gone. So from that perspective it's a good thing for me. Gives me time to do other things outside of STO. But like I said, it's not about me. Having a lot less people doing content is bad for the playerbase as a whole, and it's bad for the game. Which is why I posted my feedback and said what I said. Either way it won't affect me much, at least not directly. But less people playing is bad for the game as a whole -- it means less people to play with, and more importantly, less revenue. So I have a right to be concerned when I see a half-baked idea being unnecessarily shoehorned in seemingly without any serious consideration for the possible consequences.
YOU did.
See. That's you. Saying that this change has completely removed any incentive to do new reputation content.
What exactly did you mean by that?
The phrase "completely removes any incentive" means ... ?
I think he mean exactly that. Why would someone do any new reputation if the skills are not that much(because Cryptic will lower them if any person says power creep)? Additionally, why spend 100's of hours to get to tier 5 if there is no real chance to utilize 2 or 3 of the traits. Also, why think there is a point to improve a character overall build space o ground. Must of the incentives you can grind a few hours or 2 days to gett.
So, there is NO POINT with the new reputation system. If the cap was higher I would but no. I have 3 characters at full Tier 5 on all 4 reputations. So, it's not like I wouldn't do it. I will not try to build a character and not be able to use a skill or buff, since its suppose tobe a learned skill or buff.
Which is NOT the same as saying "No one will do rep content. Ever" False equivalency.
I also said, in the very same paragraph:
And still, it's false. There are still incentives.
1) Wanting to have the reputation finished.
2) Wanting a specific reputation ability to choose from.
3) Wainting access to specific reputation items
4) Earning Dilithium
Which, as I have pointed out a number of times now, will appeal to some, but not most people and likely not all of your characters, leading to a drastic reduction in people playing the content compared to now.
As f2pdrakron has pointed out, we've been down this road before. We know exactly what happens when there is little to no perceived benefit in doing a rep tier -- people don't do it. History is simply going to repeat itself and by then it will be too late because the system will already be in place and it won't be feasible to remove it. The only recourse Cryptic will have is to make the new rep abilities significantly stronger than the others or grant other unique bonuses the other reps do not have in order to entice people to do it, which completely invalidates the purpose of the new system.
Which also applies to the passives. Why do you believe these appeal to everyone? Why would it be needed on every character?
It's not like you need another 5 % crit bonus or whatever to play Startrek Online. MAybe you grind Omega to get the free healing power from the borg set, and then you say - oh, well, the rest is nice to have, but this is all I need to run existing content.
The onyl time it absolutely becomes needed if we keep the power creep going, if we stack reputation passives forever, and at some point, you have on hope in playing new content because you won't be able to contribute without it.
Of course, that is probably also the time no one creates alt characters anymore, because the prospect of grinding it all over again, using old content... *shudder*
So, this was the result running this not seriously. I was able to pound some the new content and also take out cubes while being attacked by other cubes, spheres, and probes easily. I took direct hits and nothing major happen. When I died it was a stupid death which I can easily not repeat.
I say re-instate the old level of reputation system with that as the base cap. Leave what people earned alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9SjhX0Guq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbZl6g6vZwE&feature=youtu.be
On Holodeck if live, I add Jevonite to the mix and pretty much run through the content still. No stacking, no power creep, no I'm going get over. The content level is super low for elite.
It's not the power creep it's the content. They could had kept the hard limit to the level the reputation systems are now. Cryptic should really be focusing on the content and make elite really elite or even super elite. Then the passive can be fully used. Get people from this 4/4/4 hard limit. Which is the main complaint.
For.
The.
Gear.
Now let's hear from more people rocking kinetic cutting beams, Klingon Honor Guard Costumes, and 4 pc. Dyson sets how there's no incentive to bother with the rep system in the future.