I don't like the change. A lot of people worked a lot on getting the reputation powers, which provide small, but surely nice bonuses to their characters, as well as sense of progress beyong level 50. It's also clear that to get one reputation to tier V takes quite a lot of time, given the limitations of the system, and that you can only do the 'big' rep reward once a day. That is artifical slowing down and I guess it has its merits.
What I don't like is, that after we've worked a lot on getting the passive powers, we are basicly cut in what? Half of what we have gained?
My proposal, if you *really* are stuck on going on change on reputation powers, to make it less aggrivating, and actually to offer further variety and specialization of characters, would be to simply let people have 8 passive powers active at one time. Don't divide it into space/ground. Yes, someone will choose to put it all into space, and they will have an advantage. I personally specc in ground, and would dump it into the ground powers suiting my needs. The whole thing is - while you'd be stronger in one area, you would be also weaker in the other, if you decided to slot your reputation powers one-sided like that. But, it would be by the choice, not by yet another rather forceful, and might I add, very unfair limitation.
Also, have you thought that this ruins the incentive of playing the new reputation systems? For example - I checked the Undine reputation powers, and none fits what I am gearing towards, so I wouldn't slot any of the powers into my active traits. I also don't really find fighting Undie all that fun, and if I want to have fun, I will simply do something else.
So, where is the motivation to play the reputation systems, after all of these changes, when you are so limited on how many passive powers you can have active at the same time? People will just pick those, where there's something they actually intend to use; unless they will play the new content, because it's fun to do. If neither is the case, the content will not be touched, which I find rather.. regrettable.
These small passive bonuses provided a feel of progress beyond lvl 50. This is now going to be basicly gone too..
So, instead of encouraging people to play the new content by these small bonuses and incentives, with this limitation in Reputation powers, it does exactly the opposite. Well, unless you think that all players are obsessive-compulsive, insisting on having all Reputations filled to Tier V just because they can.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Well, unless you think that all players are obsessive-compulsive, insisting on having all Reputations filled to Tier V just because they can.
*grins sheepishly and slowly raises paw* yep, that's me...besides, even if the gear and passives wind up not being that useful to any of my characters (which is impossible with 24 and counting), i just can't say no to 32K x 24 dil, plus all those marks which can all be turned in for even more of it
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Well, unless you think that all players are obsessive-compulsive, insisting on having all Reputations filled to Tier V just because they can.
I suspect that a lot are. I know I got both Nukara and Dyson to T5 just because, I wasn't planning on using any of the gear. I mean, I'm playing content that gets me marks anyway, why not do them? And now you'll get reward boxes for them all, too. Dyson boxes were kind of underwhelming to me, but I did the full Romulan rep to try the shields and set changes, and ended up with a load of Romulan Plasma ground and space weapons weapons - that's a pretty good incentive to do them, IMO.
I think that treating these powers like traits and only allowing a set number of them to be active once is the right move. It's how the system should have been designed in the first place. The old system would've gotten more and more ridiculous the more reps they added. I also think the one-time choice deal was dumb, where you had to pay if you made any mistakes/changed ship classes. Now you get all the traits and can change them at will, much better.
The only thing I'm not completely sold on is buffing the traits and limiting us to four. It probably could've been kept at the current eight in each area, with unchanged abilities. There'd be a lot less QQ if they went that route. But I'm leaning towards four stronger abilities being more worthwhile, and offering more interesting choices, than eight weak ones.
The last set of episodic missions that were released on Saturday of each week till conclusion was the Jem'Hadar/DS9 series with Boldly They Rode being the last, and that was released in March of 2012. So in effect we've had a whopping two new story line missions put into this game by Cryptic in the past two years.!
I agree, it is silly. Problem is though it also makes sense. I have no idea how long it takes to create a mission, but I'm sure it takes them far longer to make than the 10 minutes it takes us to complete them. During the FE runs you'd have someone logging in for that 10 minutes, doing the mission and then only logging in a week later to do the next one. That was never going to be a sustainable model under F2P.
Meanwhile grind content will have us working our butts off for months, logging in daily. When the latest grind current gets stale, they give us a "special" event to grind and keep ourselves occupied while they go about making the next big grind missions.
I don't like it, but you have to have realistic expectations. Mission content doesn't make them money or keep players playing daily. Grind content does. So we get grind content.
Cryptic are the ones that said that they would be releasing these episodic missions three or four times a year, not me. Fact is, the space stations and reputation systems didn't exist when the first episodic missions were coming out and there wasn't anything else end game to do so of course people would be logging ONLY for the mission. This isn't two or three years ago though, now ALL we do is grind...is it too much to ask to have a little of both?? Do you honestly expect to do nothing but grind? That's boldly going...to H E double hockey sticks in a hand basket. I mean really how many people are going to keep playing if all they do to advance the story line further is an average of two missions in two years? I won't. I can tell you that...if all we get from here on forward is new grinding and hardly any new story I am done. I for one would like them to actually keep their word. Its time to give us some real content...god knows I've certainly paid for my fair share of it these past few years.
Cryptic are the ones that said that they would be releasing these episodic missions three or four times a year, not me. Fact is, the space stations and reputation systems didn't exist when the first episodic missions were coming out and there wasn't anything else end game to do so of course people would be logging ONLY for the mission. This isn't two or three years ago though, now ALL we do is grind...is it too much to ask to have a little of both?? Do you honestly expect to do nothing but grind? That's boldly going...to H E double hockey sticks in a hand basket. I mean really how many people are going to keep playing if all they do to advance the story line further is an average of two missions in two years? I won't. I can tell you that...if all we get from here on forward is new grinding and hardly any new story I am done. I for one would like them to actually keep their word. Its time to give us some real content...god knows I've certainly paid for my fair share of it these past few years.
The problem with actual episodes of content is that they take a while to produce. D'angelo has stated that they would rather produce stuff that people can repeatedly play rather than create something that people will play just once. Unless you can justify to D'angelo the benefit of creating more episodes, then the most we'll get is one per 6 months.
same thing with the rep stores you could add traits there so in the case of the borg store at tier 3 they could add a trait that you hit borg harder, or their slower at adapting to your weapon fire.
that's already a thing of sorts; the rep passive that used to be rotating weapon frequencies that i can't remember the new name of covers the hit harder part, and they're readding the slower adaptation mechanic to it probably next tribble patch
and with this new system of theirs, where you can just swap out passives at will for free when not in combat, if you know you're going up against the borg, you just stick that in, then swap in another power when you're done kicking collective TRIBBLE
i do like the idea of making the cryo grenade a kit mod, though - it would mean the thing would actually get used by me on occasion
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
So at page 10 now and there's been a bit of fighting but I do feel we've all come to some agreements.
1) Powers have to be capped. Simple as that, if the rep system is going to continue powers will need to be capped.
2) the majority of us (this topic and announcement comments) do not like the current proposed changes.
3) for experienced players these changes will actually give them more DPS then they have now.
So with that i have two solutions based on what people have suggested and general feelings.
1
8 Ground Passives, 8 Space Passives, 4 Actives caps.
-Buffs removed powers stay as they are (other than total changes to powers)
This keeps the situation as it currently is and won't add more DPS like the buffs do, in order to use any new powers in the future we'll have to remove a current one and with 8 to choose from instead of 4 most players would be more likely to continue doing more reps as it would be much easier to find powers to switch out with 4 more options.
2
8 Passives Ground or Space and 4 Active caps.
-Current buffs active or buffs from original to be only minor boosts. say 1.5x instead of 2x.
This would allow more flexibility in how we choose our powers, though with this someone could run all 8 space and then switch to all 8 ground which of course is not the point of doing this. IMO with this plan there would have to be a large cooldown on changing your traits, maybe an hour, maybe 20 hours so you could run all 8 space but you'd have to wait a long time to change them back and forth.
Personally i still feel the best solution is 1. 8/8/4 with no buffs. It keeps the game as it is now and no one is losing anything, no one will be doing more DPS then they're doing now (save for future rep bonuses that could be switched in)
This IMO is truly the best solution, and I'd like to call out the devs here and ask for a response to this. Your point for doing this was to remove the power creep and to give us a slight nerf in damage but you have done the exact opposite by boosting the powers and giving us more damage, though granted we'll lose a slight bit of survivability, more than made up in the damage boosts.
Solution 1 solves all the problems.
1) losing 50% of what players earned.
2) increasing DPS when trying to decrease it.
3) people won't play future reps.
All 3 of these problems are solved.
DEVS, talk among yourselves, realize that this is a better solution to what you have currently proposed and consider it, or at the very least, respond and talk to us.
This is a major change that has the possibility of causing huge parts of the player base to quit or ignore future content, i don't want that to happen, so lets talk about this.
One of the biggest points i was trying to make and thank you for expanding on it a lot more. There will be no reason to do reps from now on. If were happy with our powers and items we have no reason to waste our time and money on new reps.
I'm the same as you where i give them a lot of credit and even though i've had some issues (like the story content that you bring up) i've been a fan of the fleet and rep systems. but now with these changes as we've said we have no incentive to play the game anymore.
The grinding already sucked enough but we did it because it was new content and we were earning something. Now we grind for nothing. That's not worth it.
I feel the same way. I only going do reputation systems if there is a clear benefit for the Tier 5 passive. Otherwise, I don't see any reason to do the reputation systems. If the upcoming one have a universal console. I'll do tier 1 to get the console and that's it. I really don't care if I have a dozen tier 1 reputation systems. It's clearly not worth the time or effort.
While that is certainly true, nothing in your post was relevant to this thread. Did you go on Tribble? Did you test the new Reputation Powers System? Did you find bugs? Did you collect data? What is your feedback on your testing of the new system?
All the other stuff you posted should be its own topic in the General Forums.
Why not & God I hope you're right. My reputation powers did not transfer, they were missing from my tray & since I was @ 0000, I couldn't just click them back on.
I'm just going to stop you right here, mid meltdown.
1- Go to Drozana Station on Tribble.
2- Go to the console in Drozana Station.
3- Pick up the Rep Testing Kits for each rep.
4- Do the reps. The 20 hour assignments and the hourly assignments finish up in under a minute.
Now, this is just so if you want to finish out the rep bars and test things.
The reps don't carry over, that is true. But they give you a system where with about twenty minutes of messing about, you can fill up all the reps except the new one. A bit of a button pushing frenzy, but the have this in place so you can test stuff.
Ok I'm going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here, but this change that the Dev's are now rail roading through, is pointless it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to ground game play.
Please allow to me explain. A while ago myself and a friend decided to see if we could two man KAGE using the current system (Full reps passives and all) and we managed it even getting the optional. Granted it could be argued that we were able to do it because of the "power creep". Fair enough after all the mission was designed as a five man co-op one.
So some bright spark at cryptic (I'm guessing someone who really doesn't play the game) decided for what ever reason that the "Power creep" is getting out of control because of the additional reputations that are coming our way. (But why should a fresh faced lvl 50 be able to keep up with a veteran lvl 50 whos ground the reps?).
So as a result they decided to implement the changes that are currently on Tribble. So once more my friend said "Hey lets try two manning KAGE again this time on tribble" So we set about setting it all up. We used the same tactics and Gear as we did before except this time we weren't running with all 8 ground passives. We only had 4 and not forgetting that the rotating weapons frequency has been completely removed. So off we went once more into the breach not knowing what to expect. And holy hell what did find out? All the time and effort that the Devs's and their support teams have put in to this and trying to sell it the player base has been for nothing!
Thats right nothing. Because not only did we manage to two man it again but we did with almost a full minute extra on the optional timer than we did when we ran it on holodeck.
So again whats the point in this change when its obvious to anyone who watches the video at the link below that its not solving the issue and once more goes to prove that people thinking these changes up really have no clue as to what the problems in game really are or even how to go about correcting them.
Too many Reps/passives? simple stop introducing them or make each rep apply to its respective enemy!
So again whats the point in this change when its obvious to anyone who watches the video at the link below that its not solving the issue and once more goes to prove that people thinking these changes up really have no clue as to what the problems in game really are or even how to go about correcting them.
I dare you to respond!
This is why I think Cryptic will nerf the reputation traits in 9.5 or 10.
With a half a year they will start think: "Holy TRIBBLE... power creep... new rep powers are too strong... let's nerf them!"
Of course not the old nor the new rep powers are the root of the problem - but they will never touch Zen and Lobi stuff.
I think we need more than 4 trait slots for ground and space passives. 8-8 would be best.
At minimum that would be good, or get a fleet version of your ship. Get a universal console and jevonite hardening. That gives you a solid 2% boost over base and the jevonite hardening increases defense for 900 seconds, 10 mins+.
This is why I think Cryptic will nerf the reputation traits in 9.5 or 10.
With a half a year they will start think: "Holy TRIBBLE... power creep... new rep powers are too strong... let's nerf them!"
Of course not the old nor the new rep powers are the root of the problem - but they will never touch Zen and Lobi stuff.
1st off its another damn money grab by Cryptic, the ship load outs dont work properly so there's no chance in hell that ground ones will work correctly.
2nd they've already nerfed it by making us choose a maximum of 4 ground and 4 space and 4 active powers. They claim they've doubled the effects on others yet the increase is only around 60% so thats not doubled!
3rd Our run proves that they're original statement for altering it is now null and void.
4th If they want to nerf something then nerf the idiots that are coming up with these stupid ideas in the first place.
and 5th If it is because a small group of people are whining because they cant compete with veteran players, either tell them to suck it up and start the grinding like everyone else has had to do or go play something else!
Ok, let me be blunt. The removal of the mk X and XI items from the stores is a bit shocking for thouse of you who have never known life without them but there is one store where these items are available and holy TRIBBLE even cheaper....thats right folks, the dilithium store. there are your Mk XI items. Rep should be for those who want to advance beyond that point. For this change I am happy. I never understood why I had to grind 4 to 5 rep levels just to be able to get some gear I could actually use.
Powers wise. I agree with my fellow players 4, 4, and 4 is a bad system. 8, 8, and 4 with expansions of 1 slot per rep at tier 5. this way players will not lose all the progress they made. and let me just say this...
This shiney new leveling system you made is nice and all, compared to the old system I'm in love, BUT...Does NOT negate the fact we who lleveled our reps up prior to this threw some pretty serious resources at the system to get where we are...and now your taking all that work and making it pointless. I understand the power creep needs to be kept in check...I fully agree.
Le me make this suggestion. 4, 4, 4, for a start point. when a player hits tier 5 in any rep they unlock 1 new slot in all areas except active powers. so then it becomes 5, 5, 4 and so on. that way players arnt losing out on what they worked hard for but still limits the power creep as your leveling up.
And one last thing speeking on the issue, this is an MMO, Someone who has been at 50 for 4 years is going to seem like a god to some fresh face 50. ITS EXPECTED! This perposed system and a one up harder difficulty would actually give your players the challenge they desire. Or you can ignore the voices in this thread and keep the changes the way they are.
So at page 10 now and there's been a bit of fighting but I do feel we've all come to some agreements.
1) Powers have to be capped. Simple as that, if the rep system is going to continue powers will need to be capped.
2) the majority of us (this topic and announcement comments) do not like the current proposed changes.
3) for experienced players these changes will actually give them more DPS then they have now.
So with that i have two solutions based on what people have suggested and general feelings.
1
8 Ground Passives, 8 Space Passives, 4 Actives caps.
-Buffs removed powers stay as they are (other than total changes to powers)
This keeps the situation as it currently is and won't add more DPS like the buffs do, in order to use any new powers in the future we'll have to remove a current one and with 8 to choose from instead of 4 most players would be more likely to continue doing more reps as it would be much easier to find powers to switch out with 4 more options.
2
8 Passives Ground or Space and 4 Active caps.
-Current buffs active or buffs from original to be only minor boosts. say 1.5x instead of 2x.
This would allow more flexibility in how we choose our powers, though with this someone could run all 8 space and then switch to all 8 ground which of course is not the point of doing this. IMO with this plan there would have to be a large cooldown on changing your traits, maybe an hour, maybe 20 hours so you could run all 8 space but you'd have to wait a long time to change them back and forth.
Personally i still feel the best solution is 1. 8/8/4 with no buffs. It keeps the game as it is now and no one is losing anything, no one will be doing more DPS then they're doing now (save for future rep bonuses that could be switched in)
This IMO is truly the best solution, and I'd like to call out the devs here and ask for a response to this. Your point for doing this was to remove the power creep and to give us a slight nerf in damage but you have done the exact opposite by boosting the powers and giving us more damage, though granted we'll lose a slight bit of survivability, more than made up in the damage boosts.
Solution 1 solves all the problems.
1) losing 50% of what players earned.
2) increasing DPS when trying to decrease it.
3) people won't play future reps.
All 3 of these problems are solved.
DEVS, talk among yourselves, realize that this is a better solution to what you have currently proposed and consider it, or at the very least, respond and talk to us.
This is a major change that has the possibility of causing huge parts of the player base to quit or ignore future content, i don't want that to happen, so lets talk about this.
The problem with putting any kind of cap on the number of abilities you can have active at any time is that it completely removes any incentive to do new reputation content. And IMO that's a far bigger problem than the minor power creep that these abilities present. We do them now, even if the buffs are mediocre, because we know they stack, and you don't have to sacrifice one for another. But that changes in the new system, and if none of the traits in a new rep line appeal to you; if none are worth swapping out one of the traits you're currently using, then there is no point in grinding out the content to T5. You'll do it a few times just because it's new and then never go back there again. Sure there will always be a few people that are completists, but they are the small minority, not the majority. The effort vs. reward balance that currently exists and works well will be shot to hell, and it simply will not be worth the time and energy to do it. I fear that new rep content will be full of people at release, but within a short time become a ghost town. And that's a far bigger problem in my mind than the minor power creep caused by an increasing amount of stackable rep abilities.
There has to be a better way to address power creep that doesn't completely remove the motivation to do rep content. I don't presume to know what that way is, but I do know this system isn't it.
I'm just going to stop you right here, mid meltdown.
1- Go to Drozana Station on Tribble.
2- Go to the console in Drozana Station.
3- Pick up the Rep Testing Kits for each rep.
4- Do the reps. The 20 hour assignments and the hourly assignments finish up in under a minute.
Now, this is just so if you want to finish out the rep bars and test things.
The reps don't carry over, that is true. But they give you a system where with about twenty minutes of messing about, you can fill up all the reps except the new one. A bit of a button pushing frenzy, but the have this in place so you can test stuff.
Would have been nice if someone from Cryptic or Perfect World got off their respective posteriors & TOLD ME THIS. BTW- how is going to Drozana station & doing this not considered MORE GRINDING? Before you jump down my throat again let me tell you something- it is not MY responsibility to surf these forums for information- I'm the customer. It's Cryptics/Perfect Worlds responsibility to inform me. I don't care that that is not the way gaming/mmo's have always worked, it's wrong & it's lazy. Look @ what's happening @ GM right now, with the +10yr overdue recall on the ignition switch problem w/ Chevy Cobalts. They didn't inform the public & now they're in hot water. Apples to oranges? No, business is business & just because no one is dying or getting crippled the BBB is ignoring these unethical business practices conducted by the gaming industry, and they get away with it. It is not my responsibility to go looking for answers, it's the responsibility of the business to inform their customers, or risk loosing them. That however, would cut into their profit margine & since the economic model they use is based on short term economics, not long term, they don't give a rats posterior. Wake up.
Ok I'm going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here, but this change that the Dev's are now rail roading through, is pointless it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to ground game play.
Please allow to me explain. A while ago myself and a friend decided to see if we could two man KAGE using the current system (Full reps passives and all) and we managed it even getting the optional. Granted it could be argued that we were able to do it because of the "power creep". Fair enough after all the mission was designed as a five man co-op one.
So some bright spark at cryptic (I'm guessing someone who really doesn't play the game) decided for what ever reason that the "Power creep" is getting out of control because of the additional reputations that are coming our way. (But why should a fresh faced lvl 50 be able to keep up with a veteran lvl 50 whos ground the reps?).
So as a result they decided to implement the changes that are currently on Tribble. So once more my friend said "Hey lets try two manning KAGE again this time on tribble" So we set about setting it all up. We used the same tactics and Gear as we did before except this time we weren't running with all 8 ground passives. We only had 4 and not forgetting that the rotating weapons frequency has been completely removed. So off we went once more into the breach not knowing what to expect. And holy hell what did find out? All the time and effort that the Devs's and their support teams have put in to this and trying to sell it the player base has been for nothing!
Thats right nothing. Because not only did we manage to two man it again but we did with almost a full minute extra on the optional timer than we did when we ran it on holodeck.
So again whats the point in this change when its obvious to anyone who watches the video at the link below that its not solving the issue and once more goes to prove that people thinking these changes up really have no clue as to what the problems in game really are or even how to go about correcting them.
Too many Reps/passives? simple stop introducing them or make each rep apply to its respective enemy!
here you go Devs, ABSOLUTE PROOF that what you are doing actually INCREASES the power creep instead of decreasing it which is THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT YOUR DOING.
This proves that the current buffs and 4 traits system does the exact opposite of what you want to do and pisses off the user base who has spent their time and money earning all this.
The problem with putting any kind of cap on the number of abilities you can have active at any time is that it completely removes any incentive to do new reputation content. And IMO that's a far bigger problem than the minor power creep that these abilities present. We do them now, even if the buffs are mediocre, because we know they stack, and you don't have to sacrifice one for another. But that changes in the new system, and if none of the traits in a new rep line appeal to you; if none are worth swapping out one of the traits you're currently using, then there is no point in grinding out the content to T5. You'll do it a few times just because it's new and then never go back there again. Sure there will always be a few people that are completists, but they are the small minority, not the majority. The effort vs. reward balance that currently exists and works well will be shot to hell, and it simply will not be worth the time and energy to do it. I fear that new rep content will be full of people at release, but within a short time become a ghost town. And that's a far bigger problem in my mind than the minor power creep caused by an increasing amount of stackable rep abilities.
There has to be a better way to address power creep that doesn't completely remove the motivation to do rep content. I don't presume to know what that way is, but I do know this system isn't it.
agreed completely but i do agree with the devs that it's the only option with this situation. which is the reason why I am pushing for 8/8/4 no buffs instead of buffed 4/4/4.
now at 8/8/4 there is absolutly no guarantee that people will do future reps, but with 8 spots to use for passives instead of 4 and being able to switch them around constantly i think people would. There are a couple rep passives in undine that would help when fighting them but useless against anyone else. at 4/4/4 I'm skipping the entire undine rep as i know what traits i want and none of them are in the undine rep.
at 8/8/4 I'll fininsh the undine rep and use those abilities to help me against the undine. I'll switch back to other ones when i'm done most likely but i played the content which is the goal of any developer.
I agree that no matter what any cap will stop people from playing the reps. that is guaranteed. But 8/8/4 will do it a whole lot less than the current 4/4/4. At the current system i know personally every fleet member i've asked is going to play the undine content once and skip the entire rep as there is no point to doing it.
While that is certainly true, nothing in your post was relevant to this thread. Did you go on Tribble? Did you test the new Reputation Powers System? Did you find bugs? Did you collect data? What is your feedback on your testing of the new system?
All the other stuff you posted should be its own topic in the General Forums.
Good god your right. Directly my post had nothing to do with the thread. My intention was to respond to the post of Borthanius but I didn't quote him directly. See, I don't post on the forums often but on my way in I saw that it said tribble general feedback and discussion. I read Borthanius's post and generally thought I would give some feedback and discuss. I was a fool. This post really has even less to do with the game as my other post but alas that is your fault because in your role as topic police you've taken us even further off course but I digress.
Perhaps we should get together in real life, ya know...go out to a bar and have a few beers. You can talk about the reputation system on tribble. I can whine about the lack of content...you can tell me I'm getting off topic again...and I can hand you a blanking tissue!!
here you go Devs, ABSOLUTE PROOF that what you are doing actually INCREASES the power creep instead of decreasing it which is THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT YOUR DOING.
This proves that the current buffs and 4 traits system does the exact opposite of what you want to do and pisses off the user base who has spent their time and money earning all this.
Remove the buffs and go to 8/8/4 caps.
agreed completely but i do agree with the devs that it's the only option with this situation. which is the reason why I am pushing for 8/8/4 no buffs instead of buffed 4/4/4.
now at 8/8/4 there is absolutly no guarantee that people will do future reps, but with 8 spots to use for passives instead of 4 and being able to switch them around constantly i think people would. There are a couple rep passives in undine that would help when fighting them but useless against anyone else. at 4/4/4 I'm skipping the entire undine rep as i know what traits i want and none of them are in the undine rep.
at 8/8/4 I'll fininsh the undine rep and use those abilities to help me against the undine. I'll switch back to other ones when i'm done most likely but i played the content which is the goal of any developer.
I agree that no matter what any cap will stop people from playing the reps. that is guaranteed. But 8/8/4 will do it a whole lot less than the current 4/4/4. At the current system i know personally every fleet member i've asked is going to play the undine content once and skip the entire rep as there is no point to doing it.
I've been giving it more thought, trying to think outside the box, and this came to me:
What if new rep tier rewards were something other than passives and powers? What if the rewards were something else, or a mix thereof?
You could reward all sorts of things -- unique gear, rare DOFF or BOFFS, ship skins, costume packs, etc. A mix of different things that would be appealing and provide motivation to achieve, but greatly reduces power creep because they're not powers.
If power creep is the issue motivating these changes, instead of changing the fundamental structure of the rep system and limiting the rewards, just change the rewards to something else. This would greatly reducing power creep, yet still provide people with desirable rewards they can use, and in turn, makes grinding the rep feel worthwhile.
Would have been nice if someone from Cryptic or Perfect World got off their respective posteriors & TOLD ME THIS.
Pretty sure they did when they put it in. It's just a mechanism for testing, so it's not exactly something they announced on Galactic News Network
BTW- how is going to Drozana station & doing this not considered MORE GRINDING?
Because it's just a tool used on the test server for testing things. Besides the rep, you can also straight up buy the Dyson gear and some other stuff.
it is not MY responsibility to surf these forums for information- I'm the customer. It's Cryptics/Perfect Worlds responsibility to inform me.
Your anger is very misplaced. This is all just added tools for testing things on the test server. That's it. So say your character on live server doesn't have Dyson rep filled out. And you want to test it. You go to test server, and can quickly fill it out, grab some of the stuff from it (as well as scads and scads of dilithium to do whatever with) and can go and test things. And report back to them what you found with your test.
The problem with putting any kind of cap on the number of abilities you can have active at any time is that it completely removes any incentive to do new reputation content.
Apparently the new Undine Rep T2 power is something quite a few people will be doing even with the new cap. So that's not true at all.
Would have been nice if someone from Cryptic or Perfect World got off their respective posteriors & TOLD ME THIS. BTW- how is going to Drozana station & doing this not considered MORE GRINDING? Before you jump down my throat again let me tell you something- it is not MY responsibility to surf these forums for information- I'm the customer. It's Cryptics/Perfect Worlds responsibility to inform me.
Read this: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=757431
Do you understand that Tribble is a test server? It's not meant for the average customer. All kinds of problems are expected, bugs, crashes, collapsing developments, wrong informaton, misleading information, spotty service, character corruption, outdated information. It's not a polished experience, because polishing is what it exists for.
Stay on holodeck if you find that too tedious and not worth the effort - not everyone has the inclination or time to test on Tribble, and that's fine.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Apparently the new Undine Rep T2 power is something quite a few people will be doing even with the new cap. So that's not true at all.
Also easily disproven by many other aspects in the game.
There is a hard cap on the number of shields a ship can use. It's exactly one. (Well, at least since they fixed that shield exploit thingy). And yet, people "grind" for sets that contain shields. It's an incredibly weak argument. Sometimes I think people just bring it up to fight the new system, a pseudo-argument to scare Cryptic "Oh god, players will stop buying Zen, the game will die!". But maybe some people really don't realize that a lot of stuff in the game is slotted and we yet hunt for new stuff to put in that slot. An item can be interested even if it doesn't add to everything you got already.
Heck, think of all those ships people are going after - you can only fly one ship at a time, and you can't tell me that every new ship was better than the previous one - different, yes, better?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The problem with putting any kind of cap on the number of abilities you can have active at any time is that it completely removes any incentive to do new reputation content.
Apparently the new Undine Rep T2 power is something quite a few people will be doing even with the new cap. So that's not true at all.
Yep, that's not the problem at all. The problem is Cryptic thinking for a moment that the folks they've catered to for the past two+ years are capable of thinking through the choices this change will present them with...meh.
Also easily disproven by many other aspects in the game.
There is a hard cap on the number of shields a ship can use. It's exactly one. (Well, at least since they fixed that shield exploit thingy). And yet, people "grind" for sets that contain shields. It's an incredibly weak argument. Sometimes I think people just bring it up to fight the new system, a pseudo-argument to scare Cryptic "Oh god, players will stop buying Zen, the game will die!". But maybe some people really don't realize that a lot of stuff in the game is slotted and we yet hunt for new stuff to put in that slot. An item can be interested even if it doesn't add to everything you got already.
Heck, think of all those ships people are going after - you can only fly one ship at a time, and you can't tell me that every new ship was better than the previous one - different, yes, better?
I settle for one ship per character.
Undine rep....the items it gives are very powerful. The rep powers are meh. But it gives gear that a lot of people will want.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Comments
I don't like the change. A lot of people worked a lot on getting the reputation powers, which provide small, but surely nice bonuses to their characters, as well as sense of progress beyong level 50. It's also clear that to get one reputation to tier V takes quite a lot of time, given the limitations of the system, and that you can only do the 'big' rep reward once a day. That is artifical slowing down and I guess it has its merits.
What I don't like is, that after we've worked a lot on getting the passive powers, we are basicly cut in what? Half of what we have gained?
My proposal, if you *really* are stuck on going on change on reputation powers, to make it less aggrivating, and actually to offer further variety and specialization of characters, would be to simply let people have 8 passive powers active at one time. Don't divide it into space/ground. Yes, someone will choose to put it all into space, and they will have an advantage. I personally specc in ground, and would dump it into the ground powers suiting my needs. The whole thing is - while you'd be stronger in one area, you would be also weaker in the other, if you decided to slot your reputation powers one-sided like that. But, it would be by the choice, not by yet another rather forceful, and might I add, very unfair limitation.
Also, have you thought that this ruins the incentive of playing the new reputation systems? For example - I checked the Undine reputation powers, and none fits what I am gearing towards, so I wouldn't slot any of the powers into my active traits. I also don't really find fighting Undie all that fun, and if I want to have fun, I will simply do something else.
So, where is the motivation to play the reputation systems, after all of these changes, when you are so limited on how many passive powers you can have active at the same time? People will just pick those, where there's something they actually intend to use; unless they will play the new content, because it's fun to do. If neither is the case, the content will not be touched, which I find rather.. regrettable.
These small passive bonuses provided a feel of progress beyond lvl 50. This is now going to be basicly gone too..
So, instead of encouraging people to play the new content by these small bonuses and incentives, with this limitation in Reputation powers, it does exactly the opposite. Well, unless you think that all players are obsessive-compulsive, insisting on having all Reputations filled to Tier V just because they can.
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I suspect that a lot are. I know I got both Nukara and Dyson to T5 just because, I wasn't planning on using any of the gear. I mean, I'm playing content that gets me marks anyway, why not do them? And now you'll get reward boxes for them all, too. Dyson boxes were kind of underwhelming to me, but I did the full Romulan rep to try the shields and set changes, and ended up with a load of Romulan Plasma ground and space weapons weapons - that's a pretty good incentive to do them, IMO.
I think that treating these powers like traits and only allowing a set number of them to be active once is the right move. It's how the system should have been designed in the first place. The old system would've gotten more and more ridiculous the more reps they added. I also think the one-time choice deal was dumb, where you had to pay if you made any mistakes/changed ship classes. Now you get all the traits and can change them at will, much better.
The only thing I'm not completely sold on is buffing the traits and limiting us to four. It probably could've been kept at the current eight in each area, with unchanged abilities. There'd be a lot less QQ if they went that route. But I'm leaning towards four stronger abilities being more worthwhile, and offering more interesting choices, than eight weak ones.
I agree, it is silly. Problem is though it also makes sense. I have no idea how long it takes to create a mission, but I'm sure it takes them far longer to make than the 10 minutes it takes us to complete them. During the FE runs you'd have someone logging in for that 10 minutes, doing the mission and then only logging in a week later to do the next one. That was never going to be a sustainable model under F2P.
Meanwhile grind content will have us working our butts off for months, logging in daily. When the latest grind current gets stale, they give us a "special" event to grind and keep ourselves occupied while they go about making the next big grind missions.
I don't like it, but you have to have realistic expectations. Mission content doesn't make them money or keep players playing daily. Grind content does. So we get grind content.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
The problem with actual episodes of content is that they take a while to produce. D'angelo has stated that they would rather produce stuff that people can repeatedly play rather than create something that people will play just once. Unless you can justify to D'angelo the benefit of creating more episodes, then the most we'll get is one per 6 months.
and with this new system of theirs, where you can just swap out passives at will for free when not in combat, if you know you're going up against the borg, you just stick that in, then swap in another power when you're done kicking collective TRIBBLE
i do like the idea of making the cryo grenade a kit mod, though - it would mean the thing would actually get used by me on occasion
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
1) Powers have to be capped. Simple as that, if the rep system is going to continue powers will need to be capped.
2) the majority of us (this topic and announcement comments) do not like the current proposed changes.
3) for experienced players these changes will actually give them more DPS then they have now.
So with that i have two solutions based on what people have suggested and general feelings.
1
8 Ground Passives, 8 Space Passives, 4 Actives caps.
-Buffs removed powers stay as they are (other than total changes to powers)
This keeps the situation as it currently is and won't add more DPS like the buffs do, in order to use any new powers in the future we'll have to remove a current one and with 8 to choose from instead of 4 most players would be more likely to continue doing more reps as it would be much easier to find powers to switch out with 4 more options.
2
8 Passives Ground or Space and 4 Active caps.
-Current buffs active or buffs from original to be only minor boosts. say 1.5x instead of 2x.
This would allow more flexibility in how we choose our powers, though with this someone could run all 8 space and then switch to all 8 ground which of course is not the point of doing this. IMO with this plan there would have to be a large cooldown on changing your traits, maybe an hour, maybe 20 hours so you could run all 8 space but you'd have to wait a long time to change them back and forth.
Personally i still feel the best solution is 1. 8/8/4 with no buffs. It keeps the game as it is now and no one is losing anything, no one will be doing more DPS then they're doing now (save for future rep bonuses that could be switched in)
This IMO is truly the best solution, and I'd like to call out the devs here and ask for a response to this. Your point for doing this was to remove the power creep and to give us a slight nerf in damage but you have done the exact opposite by boosting the powers and giving us more damage, though granted we'll lose a slight bit of survivability, more than made up in the damage boosts.
Solution 1 solves all the problems.
1) losing 50% of what players earned.
2) increasing DPS when trying to decrease it.
3) people won't play future reps.
All 3 of these problems are solved.
DEVS, talk among yourselves, realize that this is a better solution to what you have currently proposed and consider it, or at the very least, respond and talk to us.
This is a major change that has the possibility of causing huge parts of the player base to quit or ignore future content, i don't want that to happen, so lets talk about this.
I feel the same way. I only going do reputation systems if there is a clear benefit for the Tier 5 passive. Otherwise, I don't see any reason to do the reputation systems. If the upcoming one have a universal console. I'll do tier 1 to get the console and that's it. I really don't care if I have a dozen tier 1 reputation systems. It's clearly not worth the time or effort.
While that is certainly true, nothing in your post was relevant to this thread. Did you go on Tribble? Did you test the new Reputation Powers System? Did you find bugs? Did you collect data? What is your feedback on your testing of the new system?
All the other stuff you posted should be its own topic in the General Forums.
I'm just going to stop you right here, mid meltdown.
1- Go to Drozana Station on Tribble.
2- Go to the console in Drozana Station.
3- Pick up the Rep Testing Kits for each rep.
4- Do the reps. The 20 hour assignments and the hourly assignments finish up in under a minute.
Now, this is just so if you want to finish out the rep bars and test things.
The reps don't carry over, that is true. But they give you a system where with about twenty minutes of messing about, you can fill up all the reps except the new one. A bit of a button pushing frenzy, but the have this in place so you can test stuff.
Please allow to me explain. A while ago myself and a friend decided to see if we could two man KAGE using the current system (Full reps passives and all) and we managed it even getting the optional. Granted it could be argued that we were able to do it because of the "power creep". Fair enough after all the mission was designed as a five man co-op one.
So some bright spark at cryptic (I'm guessing someone who really doesn't play the game) decided for what ever reason that the "Power creep" is getting out of control because of the additional reputations that are coming our way. (But why should a fresh faced lvl 50 be able to keep up with a veteran lvl 50 whos ground the reps?).
So as a result they decided to implement the changes that are currently on Tribble. So once more my friend said "Hey lets try two manning KAGE again this time on tribble" So we set about setting it all up. We used the same tactics and Gear as we did before except this time we weren't running with all 8 ground passives. We only had 4 and not forgetting that the rotating weapons frequency has been completely removed. So off we went once more into the breach not knowing what to expect. And holy hell what did find out? All the time and effort that the Devs's and their support teams have put in to this and trying to sell it the player base has been for nothing!
Thats right nothing. Because not only did we manage to two man it again but we did with almost a full minute extra on the optional timer than we did when we ran it on holodeck.
So again whats the point in this change when its obvious to anyone who watches the video at the link below that its not solving the issue and once more goes to prove that people thinking these changes up really have no clue as to what the problems in game really are or even how to go about correcting them.
Too many Reps/passives? simple stop introducing them or make each rep apply to its respective enemy!
Two manned KAGE test run on Tribble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj266...ature=youtu.be
I dare you to respond!
This is why I think Cryptic will nerf the reputation traits in 9.5 or 10.
With a half a year they will start think: "Holy TRIBBLE... power creep... new rep powers are too strong... let's nerf them!"
Of course not the old nor the new rep powers are the root of the problem - but they will never touch Zen and Lobi stuff.
At minimum that would be good, or get a fleet version of your ship. Get a universal console and jevonite hardening. That gives you a solid 2% boost over base and the jevonite hardening increases defense for 900 seconds, 10 mins+.
1st off its another damn money grab by Cryptic, the ship load outs dont work properly so there's no chance in hell that ground ones will work correctly.
2nd they've already nerfed it by making us choose a maximum of 4 ground and 4 space and 4 active powers. They claim they've doubled the effects on others yet the increase is only around 60% so thats not doubled!
3rd Our run proves that they're original statement for altering it is now null and void.
4th If they want to nerf something then nerf the idiots that are coming up with these stupid ideas in the first place.
and 5th If it is because a small group of people are whining because they cant compete with veteran players, either tell them to suck it up and start the grinding like everyone else has had to do or go play something else!
Powers wise. I agree with my fellow players 4, 4, and 4 is a bad system. 8, 8, and 4 with expansions of 1 slot per rep at tier 5. this way players will not lose all the progress they made. and let me just say this...
This shiney new leveling system you made is nice and all, compared to the old system I'm in love, BUT...Does NOT negate the fact we who lleveled our reps up prior to this threw some pretty serious resources at the system to get where we are...and now your taking all that work and making it pointless. I understand the power creep needs to be kept in check...I fully agree.
Le me make this suggestion. 4, 4, 4, for a start point. when a player hits tier 5 in any rep they unlock 1 new slot in all areas except active powers. so then it becomes 5, 5, 4 and so on. that way players arnt losing out on what they worked hard for but still limits the power creep as your leveling up.
And one last thing speeking on the issue, this is an MMO, Someone who has been at 50 for 4 years is going to seem like a god to some fresh face 50. ITS EXPECTED! This perposed system and a one up harder difficulty would actually give your players the challenge they desire. Or you can ignore the voices in this thread and keep the changes the way they are.
The problem with putting any kind of cap on the number of abilities you can have active at any time is that it completely removes any incentive to do new reputation content. And IMO that's a far bigger problem than the minor power creep that these abilities present. We do them now, even if the buffs are mediocre, because we know they stack, and you don't have to sacrifice one for another. But that changes in the new system, and if none of the traits in a new rep line appeal to you; if none are worth swapping out one of the traits you're currently using, then there is no point in grinding out the content to T5. You'll do it a few times just because it's new and then never go back there again. Sure there will always be a few people that are completists, but they are the small minority, not the majority. The effort vs. reward balance that currently exists and works well will be shot to hell, and it simply will not be worth the time and energy to do it. I fear that new rep content will be full of people at release, but within a short time become a ghost town. And that's a far bigger problem in my mind than the minor power creep caused by an increasing amount of stackable rep abilities.
There has to be a better way to address power creep that doesn't completely remove the motivation to do rep content. I don't presume to know what that way is, but I do know this system isn't it.
Would have been nice if someone from Cryptic or Perfect World got off their respective posteriors & TOLD ME THIS. BTW- how is going to Drozana station & doing this not considered MORE GRINDING? Before you jump down my throat again let me tell you something- it is not MY responsibility to surf these forums for information- I'm the customer. It's Cryptics/Perfect Worlds responsibility to inform me. I don't care that that is not the way gaming/mmo's have always worked, it's wrong & it's lazy. Look @ what's happening @ GM right now, with the +10yr overdue recall on the ignition switch problem w/ Chevy Cobalts. They didn't inform the public & now they're in hot water. Apples to oranges? No, business is business & just because no one is dying or getting crippled the BBB is ignoring these unethical business practices conducted by the gaming industry, and they get away with it. It is not my responsibility to go looking for answers, it's the responsibility of the business to inform their customers, or risk loosing them. That however, would cut into their profit margine & since the economic model they use is based on short term economics, not long term, they don't give a rats posterior. Wake up.
THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS!
here you go Devs, ABSOLUTE PROOF that what you are doing actually INCREASES the power creep instead of decreasing it which is THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT YOUR DOING.
This proves that the current buffs and 4 traits system does the exact opposite of what you want to do and pisses off the user base who has spent their time and money earning all this.
Remove the buffs and go to 8/8/4 caps.
agreed completely but i do agree with the devs that it's the only option with this situation. which is the reason why I am pushing for 8/8/4 no buffs instead of buffed 4/4/4.
now at 8/8/4 there is absolutly no guarantee that people will do future reps, but with 8 spots to use for passives instead of 4 and being able to switch them around constantly i think people would. There are a couple rep passives in undine that would help when fighting them but useless against anyone else. at 4/4/4 I'm skipping the entire undine rep as i know what traits i want and none of them are in the undine rep.
at 8/8/4 I'll fininsh the undine rep and use those abilities to help me against the undine. I'll switch back to other ones when i'm done most likely but i played the content which is the goal of any developer.
I agree that no matter what any cap will stop people from playing the reps. that is guaranteed. But 8/8/4 will do it a whole lot less than the current 4/4/4. At the current system i know personally every fleet member i've asked is going to play the undine content once and skip the entire rep as there is no point to doing it.
Good god your right. Directly my post had nothing to do with the thread. My intention was to respond to the post of Borthanius but I didn't quote him directly. See, I don't post on the forums often but on my way in I saw that it said tribble general feedback and discussion. I read Borthanius's post and generally thought I would give some feedback and discuss. I was a fool. This post really has even less to do with the game as my other post but alas that is your fault because in your role as topic police you've taken us even further off course but I digress.
Perhaps we should get together in real life, ya know...go out to a bar and have a few beers. You can talk about the reputation system on tribble. I can whine about the lack of content...you can tell me I'm getting off topic again...and I can hand you a blanking tissue!!
I've been giving it more thought, trying to think outside the box, and this came to me:
What if new rep tier rewards were something other than passives and powers? What if the rewards were something else, or a mix thereof?
You could reward all sorts of things -- unique gear, rare DOFF or BOFFS, ship skins, costume packs, etc. A mix of different things that would be appealing and provide motivation to achieve, but greatly reduces power creep because they're not powers.
If power creep is the issue motivating these changes, instead of changing the fundamental structure of the rep system and limiting the rewards, just change the rewards to something else. This would greatly reducing power creep, yet still provide people with desirable rewards they can use, and in turn, makes grinding the rep feel worthwhile.
Pretty sure they did when they put it in. It's just a mechanism for testing, so it's not exactly something they announced on Galactic News Network
Because it's just a tool used on the test server for testing things. Besides the rep, you can also straight up buy the Dyson gear and some other stuff.
Your anger is very misplaced. This is all just added tools for testing things on the test server. That's it. So say your character on live server doesn't have Dyson rep filled out. And you want to test it. You go to test server, and can quickly fill it out, grab some of the stuff from it (as well as scads and scads of dilithium to do whatever with) and can go and test things. And report back to them what you found with your test.
Apparently the new Undine Rep T2 power is something quite a few people will be doing even with the new cap. So that's not true at all.
Do you understand that Tribble is a test server? It's not meant for the average customer. All kinds of problems are expected, bugs, crashes, collapsing developments, wrong informaton, misleading information, spotty service, character corruption, outdated information. It's not a polished experience, because polishing is what it exists for.
Stay on holodeck if you find that too tedious and not worth the effort - not everyone has the inclination or time to test on Tribble, and that's fine.
There is a hard cap on the number of shields a ship can use. It's exactly one. (Well, at least since they fixed that shield exploit thingy). And yet, people "grind" for sets that contain shields. It's an incredibly weak argument. Sometimes I think people just bring it up to fight the new system, a pseudo-argument to scare Cryptic "Oh god, players will stop buying Zen, the game will die!". But maybe some people really don't realize that a lot of stuff in the game is slotted and we yet hunt for new stuff to put in that slot. An item can be interested even if it doesn't add to everything you got already.
Heck, think of all those ships people are going after - you can only fly one ship at a time, and you can't tell me that every new ship was better than the previous one - different, yes, better?
Yep, that's not the problem at all. The problem is Cryptic thinking for a moment that the folks they've catered to for the past two+ years are capable of thinking through the choices this change will present them with...meh.
I settle for one ship per character.
Undine rep....the items it gives are very powerful. The rep powers are meh. But it gives gear that a lot of people will want.