Well here's the thing, it can't be a huge nerf AND a buff can it?
Maybe it's just turning 8 nickels into 4 dimes. And it all kind of evens out in the wash?
I think it does as they have it proposed yes. Mostly even out that is.
I know what he is talking about though ... he is talking about the extreme min maxer end of it... where yes it is a buff to the stuff they are trying to max out... but it really is also a nerf in that they do loose some stuff there build was getting anyway before. (which is stuff they didn't care much about).
It isn't cut and dry no... and I agree that it washes out for the most part. Its a boost to some stuff and a reduction to others... and on balance it is a wash.
But you're still not comfortable calling these changes a buff to min maxers?
No, they definitely are a buff to who carefully choose and set their rep's to maximize the potential of their ship. The strengthened individual powers, when taken together and synergised are going to make for more powerful ships, however, they will generally be more narrowly powerful than they are now. You'll probably be able to build ships that can nearly hit as hard, or maybe even harder, than now but you'll being do so at more tangible cost to survivability than you currently lose, when compared to someone who is picking up better defensive passives.
That's a key factor of any game where customization of avatar capabilities is a major part of gameplay. Compare any tailorable character, from any game, with slap-dash equipment and/or abilities to one that is carefully crafted to minimize its weaknesses and/or play up its strengths and you'll always see a tangible divide between them.
A few examples:
A character in League of Legends who's optimized and filled out their Rune Page to optimize for their role int he team vs one who has not. [EG: Trying to Jungle with a character who hasn't taken Life Steal runes vs one who has]
A 'mech in Mechwarrior Online that's had its weapons and passives tailored to optimize its effectiveness in a given role vs one who has not. [EG: Putting ECM on your Scout vs not taking ECM on your Scout]
A Champion (Primary Melee DPS, Secondary Tank) in Lord of the Rings Online who attempts to tank without the survivability to do so. [EG: Not taking your Tank traits and abilities vs having those survivability buffs).
What the change does do, is limit the compounding power that will come with adding Rep Systems for players who have done it vs those who haven't, while keeping player power from ballooning into stratospheric differences that require the Devs to make further and further segregated content. If I were to hazard a guess, the 4 rep systems we've gotten, along with the constant tweaks to cost, have been both the Devs experimenting and looking for a place to draw the line on Rep Creep, as well as giving the player base a chance to use these passives to get a feel for what is and isn't strong, and build up a pool of knowledge to pass to newer players so they aren't completely swamped when they take their first forays into the Rep System.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
They mostly only come down on posts that get reported. Seeing as most of the heat is aimed at me and I can take it and won't report someone for venting. They are likely just leaving it alone.
I think they know i find it entertaining. As long as people don't attack people that seem likely to cave I think a little heated debate is fine.
I call them as I see them, and this is a 100% NERF.. So ban me for it. See if I give a rats A...
I see your point... and its likely why when this hits tribble and I test it for myself you will find me in the tribble section strongly suggesting they DO NOT boost any of the traits at all... Leave them as they are now but institute the limit.
Ok, let me set you a friendly challenge.
I've noted that most of the four passive combinations Ive seen suggested use more than one passive of the same tier.
What, lets say for pure DPS, would be a good combination of passives........if you couldnt pick two passives of the same tier?
Unless they recently broke the reman ambush bonus it is working fine.
I haven't tested it in a month or so... but it was working fine last I checked. IF they broke it people should be reporting it I haven't noticed anything.
I am not the only one defending this nerf... I am just the only one willing to hang out and continue doing it... must be that bag of cash that keeps showing up in front of the house.
The boffs are NOT what you got as a trade for the -40. I'm not saying that because I feel like it ... I'm saying that because that is WHAT the devs told us when we where testing and helping them get the Roms out the door. IF you didn't feel the singularity powers where powerful enough for the -40 you should have been more vocal during the open testing.
Myself I find the singularty powers more then powerful enough to justify the -10 per system.
However if you really don't like the setup on a Warbird... you could always pick up a lockbox ship for your romulan toon... and stop using the singularity powers... gain a regular warp core and keep your rom boffs.
That's your opinion. Honestly? I think I'll just quit the game. I cant afford a lockbox ship.... the biggest thing after doffs in the power creep, mind you. Even if I could afford one, I would rather find another company what is worthy of support.
And they broke it less than a month ago I think. I tested it with a reman on a science ship, and its broken.
Yet you still say its "oooh OP" . You make mistakes easily. Perhaps you are wrong in other things too.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I think it does as they have it proposed yes. Mostly even out that is.
I know what he is talking about though ... he is talking about the extreme min maxer end of it... where yes it is a buff to the stuff they are trying to max out... but it really is also a nerf in that they do loose some stuff there build was getting anyway before. (which is stuff they didn't care much about).
It isn't cut and dry no... and I agree that it washes out for the most part. Its a boost to some stuff and a reduction to others... and on balance it is a wash.
Agreed on the base description, disagree on the weighting at the min maxed end.
for me, that sharp buff at the extreme end of things is a genuine problem, that the nerfs dont balance.
Partially, because as Mr Salieri has noted, this is Hawks explicit design goal, to balance the extremes better.
Thus, not a wash.
And, I fear, like unchaining aux2b from EPtX, has the potential to impact other mechanisms in an unwelcomely synergistic way.
However, i do want to be clear. There is going to be a problem with future rep passives if nothing is done now.
Its not that high school kids are jellous of the PHD.
Its the issue of content.
Think of it this way... Cryptic is charged with preparing the curriculum and each class.
The issue is... we are all level 50s in STO... so we all have to go into the same class room.
So now do you prepare a 6 or 7th year University class for the students some of whom just got out of high school... or do you prepare a 1st year University class for the profs .
Its pretty clear something has to give right... either the PHDs are colouring with crayons and begging someone to put them out of there misery. Or the first year folk are doing stuff way above there pay grade, are totaly lost... and likely annoying the heck out of the PHDs with all the stupid questions.
This is worst thing you could have possibly said. Please do not talk about something you have no idea about. A proper teacher can instruct students of varying levels with differentiated instruction and scaffolding so that all students are challenged. It is up to the teacher to make the lesson and content that way.
I've noted that most of the four passive combinations Ive seen suggested use more than one passive of the same tier.
What, lets say for pure DPS, would be a good combination of passives........if you couldnt pick two passives of the same tier?
So, one tier 1 passive, one tier 2 and so on.
How restrictive is that?
Well it isn't intended to be all that restrictive. I think that is the point they wanted to give people a real choice.. and at the same time stem and issues that will arise from another rep worth of skills and passives and perhaps another 3 or 4 reps after that one.
Yes for Pure DPS... its not exactly rocket science... for pure defense its pretty easy to see what works as well. I don't think there is enough options at least right now for there to be some super secret squirrel setups. lol
I have agreed and stated I don't consider this to be a nerf at all... I do however see that it obviously limits future reps from adding further creep.
I stand by its a Nerf and Buff... I don't have issues with either method of balancing the game. I think we all agree they need to do more then just this. Still its a step in the right direction.
At this point I will test the system out when they put it on tribble... and after seeing it work... and hearing what others think as well after testing it. Hey we might all have more ideas about how they should tweak it to make it work out.
You know, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the hybrid thing folks keep talking about here. Individually, the boosts were minor. Splitting them in such a manner, wouldn't net you anywhere near the gain you'd get from not splitting. The effect on damage or the effect on survival, would be that much smaller - thus - even less lost - because less was had. But oh well...
...anyway, one thing to look at - and - what they're probably looking for with feedback once it hits tribble is likely along the lines of the following (heck, it's even the pseudo analogy used)...
You've got 8 items giving you +X to your build. Each +X should be giving you an equal amount of +X. If you cut that down to 4 items giving you +2X to your build, with each +2X giving you an equal amount of +2X that is equal to twice X...then you haven't lost anything.
Unless you're running an odd number, eh?
7/1 to 3/1 would mean you've given up half of one for half of the other.
5/3 to 2/2 would also mean giving up half of one for half of the other. Going 3/1 would mean giving up one of one for one of the other.
That's your opinion. Honestly? I think I'll just quit the game. I cant afford a lockbox ship.... the biggest thing after doffs in the power creep, mind you. Even if I could afford one, I would rather find another company what is worthy of support.
And they broke it less than a month ago I think. I tested it with a reman on a science ship, and its broken.
Yet you still say its "oooh OP" . You make mistakes easily. Perhaps you are wrong in other things too.
I wasn't meaning to be hash. I am was just saying that is how the Devs designed the Warbirds... the boffs don't have anything to do with the warbird trade offs. You can use Romulan boffs on lokcbox ships or reward ships like the Risan and Breen, if you earned them.
I think you are making a point that perhaps the devs should consider a NEW romulan ship(s) that are not warbird class. Ships that use standard warp cores. This would give people perhaps a more easily obtained Romulan ship that uses a standard core. A new Romulan Cstore ship with no singularity powers and a core might sell better then they would expect.
Well it isn't intended to be all that restrictive. I think that is the point they wanted to give people a real choice.. and at the same time stem and issues that will arise from another rep worth of skills and passives and perhaps another 3 or 4 reps after that one.
Yes for Pure DPS... its not exactly rocket science... for pure defense its pretty easy to see what works as well. I don't think there is enough options at least right now for there to be some super secret squirrel setups. lol
I agree that the thinking behind it appears to be give us no restrictions in return for taking away some stuff.
Thing is, i believe it to be flawed thinking.
It's the laizze faire aspect of this that enables the strongest examples of min maxing.
I'd make two further changes.
Tier the passive slots, and make no restrictions on tier 5 skills.
The latter one isn't even going to be an issue until we hit more than 8 reps, at 10 or 12 reps, we'd get one or two more powers than the current system allows.
Tier 5 powers are not a source of power creep, and should be left alone.
I wasn't meaning to be hash. I am was just saying that is how the Devs designed the Warbirds... the boffs don't have anything to do with the warbird trade offs. You can use Romulan boffs on lokcbox ships or reward ships like the Risan and Breen, if you earned them.
I think you are making a point that perhaps the devs should consider a NEW romulan ship(s) that are not warbird class. Ships that use standard warp cores. This would give people perhaps a more easily obtained Romulan ship that uses a standard core. A new Romulan Cstore ship with no singularity powers and a core might sell better then they would expect.
Romulan boffs in lockbock ships? Derp.... never having owned a lockbox ship, I did not know that. Silly of me. A2B romulan galor..... that does sound bad.
Honestly I think it would be best to allow romulan ships to use either a singularity core, or a warp core. The Singularity powers would not work with the warp core, of course.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I agree that the thinking behind it appears to be give us no restrictions in return for taking away some stuff.
Thing is, i believe it to be flawed thinking.
It's the laizze faire aspect of this that enables the strongest examples of min maxing.
I'd make two further changes.
Tier the passive slots, and make no restrictions on tier 5 skills.
The latter one isn't even going to be an issue until we hit more than 8 reps, at 10 or 12 reps, we'd get one or two more powers than the current system allows.
Tier 5 powers are not a source of power creep, and should be left alone.
Albeit they aren't a big part of it, they're definitely powers, and they're definitely creepin' in there, and they should definitely have a cost beyond "I leveled up my rep to get here!" Maybe a slot dedicated to Universal Space and Ground Powers as a compromise?
[EDIT]
According to Tribble Patch notes they did just that.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
Romulan boffs in lockbock ships? Derp.... never having owned a lockbox ship, I did not know that. Silly of me. A2B romulan galor..... that does sound bad.
It's one of my favorite (albeit corny) jokes.
The Wells, Korath, and R'Mor are all the same ship - different appearance but same stats.
The R'Mor are more better though...cause of BOFFs.
You know, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the hybrid thing folks keep talking about here. Individually, the boosts were minor. Splitting them in such a manner, wouldn't net you anywhere near the gain you'd get from not splitting. The effect on damage or the effect on survival, would be that much smaller - thus - even less lost - because less was had. But oh well...
For instance on my bug toon... which you have likely seen in some PvP match at some point. I would have Romulan and Borg Shield heals selected. Yes I would very often be running around with 10% hull and a go down fighitng up with nice hard shields. The amount of free heals off of the Tier 4 was impressive. Throw in one Embassy sci console... and role my shield resists. Also consider the current power levels... on my bug I am at 130 shield power pretty much all the time. (or a lot of it anyway so that borg tier 4 is in fact darn good as well... I think I am around 1500 shields per facing every 6s)
Those 2 traits let me ride the GDF wave quite a bit. When I got the Dyson Tier 4 it was even better... in those cases I would stack up aux to damp with an anti matter doff... and my Resistance was sky high.
I am also a lover of the Aegis 2 piece over the borg... for that reason... in that ship I can zip around with 100+ defense on a Fed toon... with more then enough shield healing to milk the GDF.
You know, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the hybrid thing folks keep talking about here. Individually, the boosts were minor. Splitting them in such a manner, wouldn't net you anywhere near the gain you'd get from not splitting. The effect on damage or the effect on survival, would be that much smaller - thus - even less lost - because less was had. But oh well...
...anyway, one thing to look at - and - what they're probably looking for with feedback once it hits tribble is likely along the lines of the following (heck, it's even the pseudo analogy used)...
You've got 8 items giving you +X to your build. Each +X should be giving you an equal amount of +X. If you cut that down to 4 items giving you +2X to your build, with each +2X giving you an equal amount of +2X that is equal to twice X...then you haven't lost anything.
Unless you're running an odd number, eh?
7/1 to 3/1 would mean you've given up half of one for half of the other.
5/3 to 2/2 would also mean giving up half of one for half of the other. Going 3/1 would mean giving up one of one for one of the other.
Etc, etc, etc.
And is that where the beef's coming from?
Because as of right now if the current system continued it equals out that way with 4 reps but as soon as a 5th rep comes out you lose out and it only gets larger as more and more reps come out. Not to mention the work each person in to get these powers expecting to always be able to use them to now be told sorry you just wasted your time you only get to use 4 space and 4 ground out of them all which in the grand scheme is even worse if there was like 10+ reps and out of 80 passives you only got to choose 8. what a waste of effing time.
x=number of passives you can select from new rep(s) (beyond the current 4)
y=number of passives available from new rep(s) (beyond the current 4)
Current system (16+x)/(32+y)
New system (2*8)/(32+y)
As you can see with the the new system immediately becomes less than the current system and over time that only becomes greater. As i stated above its also bad that every person spent long hours doing the rep with the expectation of using these powers to now be told sorry you now have to choose and in time find you completely wasted your time doing them because you will not use half the powers you accumulated because you do not have slots for it. what a complete and utter waste of time.
Romulan boffs in lockbock ships? Derp.... never having owned a lockbox ship, I did not know that. Silly of me. A2B romulan galor..... that does sound bad.
Honestly I think it would be best to allow romulan ships to use either a singularity core, or a warp core. The Singularity powers would not work with the warp core, of course.
That is another option to... heck they could even role it into a rep seeing as we are talking about it.
What about a new rep set that had a romulan Warp core included with it... that disabled the singularity skills.
However, i do want to be clear. There is going to be a problem with future rep passives if nothing is done now.
I don't think so, maybe with 230 reps it maybe a problem. As of right now, I'm seeing no problem with the current system. Why must we have so many passives anyway? Why not just stop making passives? Seems better than TRIBBLE Vet players over. Why do we need so many reps? Cryptic can't come up with a better way to reward hard work?
1 track mind syndrome it seems... Looking forward to the 230 reputations. New problem now, new players are overwhelmed by the 230 reputations at level 50... Errr. It's just one big cluster ****! Cryptic can't even keep the wiki updated... OMG OMG OMG. What's all this? I need help, nothing at STO-wiki on it.
If they're trying to fix power creep, they're doing in the smallest-- most tiny area possible. Reps. It's funny really. "My extra 0.2% shield generation rep power is too much creep. Let's nerf that. Just ignore mechanic that has that other dudes Boff powers on global cool down at all times. Ignore the dude with the 40% critical hit rate also." Let's nerf small stuff that may add up to something big in about 18 years... :rolleyes: Yes it's just that bad.
The dress is gold and white. Over 70% people says so. When viewed from a certain screen angle it appears blue and black. The dress displayed on amazon is a blue and black dress, but it's not the same dress in the picture. If you're seeing blue & black you're slightly colored blind. A normal upright screen = white and gold.
Again, I welcome these change (the nerf part) because the rep tiers destroyed pvp...
What I do not welcome is cryptic arbitrarily (in a dunce voice) "oh.. welll ummm.. I think we going to double this one to 200%.. and ummm... oh well ummmm increase this one by 150% and ummm...."
Because you know they didn't test it at all via the level that we would test it. That's how so many OP and power creep actually gets in the game despite us telling them about it on tribble during testing.
Cryptic mostly believes they know what is best for us.. and yet, here we are with these changes being necessary.
I can remember a time when STFs were hard.. and now I don't even take a dent.
Cryptic, if you would embrace the pvp community, you wouldn't be going through this right now.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
I don't think so, maybe with 230 reps it maybe a problem. As of right now, I'm seeing no problem with the current system. Why must we have so many passives anyway? Why not just stop making passives? Seems better than TRIBBLE Vet players over. Why do we need so many reps? Cryptic can't come up with a better way to reward hard work?
1 track mind syndrome it seems... Looking forward to the 230 reputations. New problem now, new players are overwhelmed by the 230 reputations at level 50... Errr. It's just one big cluster ****! Cryptic can't even keep the wiki updated... OMG OMG OMG. What's all this? I need help, nothing at STO-wiki on it.
If they're trying to fix power creep, they're doing in the smallest-- most tiny area possible. Reps. It's funny really. "My extra 0.2% shield generation rep power is too much creep. Let's nerf that. Just ignore mechanic that has that other dudes Boff powers on global cool down at all times. Ignore the dude with the 40% critical hit rate also." Let's nerf small stuff that may add up to something big in about 18 years... :rolleyes: Yes it's just that bad.
You think 40% crit hit chance matters? Defense rating is so out of balance that with your 1% accuracy , even 80% crit would not be enough.
Defense rating should be hard capped so it cant reduce accuracy below 30% .
Actually, I think all races should have access to these traits:
Romulan operative, Reman cloak extension, nausicaan damage boost, human repair boost, and the power level boost one.
What if Letheans and vulcans got Operative? Maybe Andorians damage boost? Gorn could have the repair boost.....
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Why stop there. Why not just stop making content? Seems better than TRIBBLE Vet players over. Why do we need so much content? Cryptic can't come up with a better way to have this game function?
For instance on my bug toon... which you have likely seen in some PvP match at some point. I would have Romulan and Borg Shield heals selected. Yes I would very often be running around with 10% hull and a go down fighitng up with nice hard shields. The amount of free heals off of the Tier 4 was impressive. Throw in one Embassy sci console... and role my shield resists. Also consider the current power levels... on my bug I am at 130 shield power pretty much all the time. (or a lot of it anyway so that borg tier 4 is in fact darn good as well... I think I am around 1500 shields per facing every 6s)
Those 2 traits let me ride the GDF wave quite a bit. When I got the Dyson Tier 4 it was even better... in those cases I would stack up aux to damp with an anti matter doff... and my Resistance was sky high.
I am also a lover of the Aegis 2 piece over the borg... for that reason... in that ship I can zip around with 100+ defense on a Fed toon... with more then enough shield healing to milk the GDF.
I'm left wondering if it's just from the hull-kill bias. Even preS7, it was a case of enjoying popping folks with full shields. Since then, they've added so many more ways to do it - that - well, shields schmields. Also, I guess with Willard having taken over as my main with LoR - I just got used to the hull tanking aspect as well. All of which probably plays into my thoughts on TT and the dismissal of the shield distro and the focus on the cleanse - with the thinking primarily being about the hull. Likewise, I've also never rode GDF on my Tacs for the same reason - and generally - my guys are all healthy or their dead...not much room to play there. Outside of an Eng popping MW, if I'm at 50% hull - I'm already dead - I just don't see the respawn button yet...lol.
Why stop there. Why not just stop making content? Seems better than TRIBBLE Vet players over. Why do we need so much content? Cryptic can't come up with a better way to have this game function?
There is other content than reputation systems.
Like harder STF maps, and such.... I have said it earlier in the thread.
Reputations are a kind of content, but one of the lazier ones. There is content beyond reputations.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I'm left wondering if it's just from the hull-kill bias. Even preS7, it was a case of enjoying popping folks with full shields. Since then, they've added so many more ways to do it - that - well, shields schmields. Also, I guess with Willard having taken over as my main with LoR - I just got used to the hull tanking aspect as well. All of which probably plays into my thoughts on TT and the dismissal of the shield distro and the focus on the cleanse - with the thinking primarily being about the hull. Likewise, I've also never rode GDF on my Tacs for the same reason - and generally - my guys are all healthy or their dead...not much room to play there. Outside of an Eng popping MW, if I'm at 50% hull - I'm already dead - I just don't see the respawn button yet...lol.
Honestly, just a few days ago, I tanked an Elite ISE tactical cube in a tier 4 free ship, with Blue XI consoles and purple X weapons.
It was all down to good skill points, bo loadout, and well....skill. Powercreep? Free tier 4 ship, cheapskate consoles and weapons, no reputations or fleet gear at all. No doffs either save a green warp core and a green damage control one. Just playing well.
I did take more damage than usual, but that was the lack of hull armor consoles and good shields. I still healed trough it...well... until I blew up with the cube, being too close to it lol.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I wish people would stop complaining about the game... and I wish Cryptic would stop listening to whiners... I don't know why they even bother listening them... I'm getting sick and tired of whiners and bots in this thread...
Different races have different traits... Rommies have high crit, but guess what... so can others... I have 2 Rommies, 1 KDF Klingon, 1 Fed Klingon and 1 Fed Human... just get the boffs from Embassy and proper consoles... and you will have it too... the devil is in details... just chose proper boffs, doffs and consoles and don't go with freighter against dreadnought... yeah, but I know what is the problem... you need bunch of fleet marks to get boffs and you don't want to invest that much effort... and Fleet Avenger or Mogh cost zen or dill or fc and you hate mining\trading\grinding... well... it's not my problem... it is yours and it will become Cryptic's once all paying customers leave the game because they don't want to play arcade...
a2b is ok, it has its advantages and faults... try healing with a2b... no one uses a2b in pvp if he/she wants to survive... When I play pvp and I have to use tank\heal option both on my tac and sci toons or I'm faced with epic fail, no a2b there... but I use it in pve for my tac... and everyone can too... what is your problem if I use it in pve??? My sci needs aux so a2b is not an option... and I'm very satisfied with my sci efficiency in combat...
Just except game mechanics and stop whining... learn it... whiners are ruining the game... instead of being cry babies try reading and grinding... it'll work better 4 all of us... as I already said even free players can become power players if they invest their time... I know that because we have them in our fleet...
and Cryptic... I suggest you take our handles from this thread and check what is average time spent in the game and average bucks spent for whiners and grinders and make your decisions based on the results... whiners will never be satisfied... they should be playing some arcade not STO...
Comments
I think it does as they have it proposed yes. Mostly even out that is.
I know what he is talking about though ... he is talking about the extreme min maxer end of it... where yes it is a buff to the stuff they are trying to max out... but it really is also a nerf in that they do loose some stuff there build was getting anyway before. (which is stuff they didn't care much about).
It isn't cut and dry no... and I agree that it washes out for the most part. Its a boost to some stuff and a reduction to others... and on balance it is a wash.
No, they definitely are a buff to who carefully choose and set their rep's to maximize the potential of their ship. The strengthened individual powers, when taken together and synergised are going to make for more powerful ships, however, they will generally be more narrowly powerful than they are now. You'll probably be able to build ships that can nearly hit as hard, or maybe even harder, than now but you'll being do so at more tangible cost to survivability than you currently lose, when compared to someone who is picking up better defensive passives.
That's a key factor of any game where customization of avatar capabilities is a major part of gameplay. Compare any tailorable character, from any game, with slap-dash equipment and/or abilities to one that is carefully crafted to minimize its weaknesses and/or play up its strengths and you'll always see a tangible divide between them.
A few examples:
What the change does do, is limit the compounding power that will come with adding Rep Systems for players who have done it vs those who haven't, while keeping player power from ballooning into stratospheric differences that require the Devs to make further and further segregated content. If I were to hazard a guess, the 4 rep systems we've gotten, along with the constant tweaks to cost, have been both the Devs experimenting and looking for a place to draw the line on Rep Creep, as well as giving the player base a chance to use these passives to get a feel for what is and isn't strong, and build up a pool of knowledge to pass to newer players so they aren't completely swamped when they take their first forays into the Rep System.
I call them as I see them, and this is a 100% NERF.. So ban me for it. See if I give a rats A...
Lets hear it for the Fan Boys... WoooooHoooo
Ok, let me set you a friendly challenge.
I've noted that most of the four passive combinations Ive seen suggested use more than one passive of the same tier.
What, lets say for pure DPS, would be a good combination of passives........if you couldnt pick two passives of the same tier?
So, one tier 1 passive, one tier 2 and so on.
How restrictive is that?
That's your opinion. Honestly? I think I'll just quit the game. I cant afford a lockbox ship.... the biggest thing after doffs in the power creep, mind you. Even if I could afford one, I would rather find another company what is worthy of support.
And they broke it less than a month ago I think. I tested it with a reman on a science ship, and its broken.
Yet you still say its "oooh OP" . You make mistakes easily. Perhaps you are wrong in other things too.
Agreed on the base description, disagree on the weighting at the min maxed end.
for me, that sharp buff at the extreme end of things is a genuine problem, that the nerfs dont balance.
Partially, because as Mr Salieri has noted, this is Hawks explicit design goal, to balance the extremes better.
Thus, not a wash.
And, I fear, like unchaining aux2b from EPtX, has the potential to impact other mechanisms in an unwelcomely synergistic way.
However, i do want to be clear. There is going to be a problem with future rep passives if nothing is done now.
Not up to me to ban you... I also don't much care how you want to word what you want to say.
This is worst thing you could have possibly said. Please do not talk about something you have no idea about. A proper teacher can instruct students of varying levels with differentiated instruction and scaffolding so that all students are challenged. It is up to the teacher to make the lesson and content that way.
Well it isn't intended to be all that restrictive. I think that is the point they wanted to give people a real choice.. and at the same time stem and issues that will arise from another rep worth of skills and passives and perhaps another 3 or 4 reps after that one.
Yes for Pure DPS... its not exactly rocket science... for pure defense its pretty easy to see what works as well. I don't think there is enough options at least right now for there to be some super secret squirrel setups. lol
I have agreed and stated I don't consider this to be a nerf at all... I do however see that it obviously limits future reps from adding further creep.
I stand by its a Nerf and Buff... I don't have issues with either method of balancing the game. I think we all agree they need to do more then just this. Still its a step in the right direction.
At this point I will test the system out when they put it on tribble... and after seeing it work... and hearing what others think as well after testing it. Hey we might all have more ideas about how they should tweak it to make it work out.
...anyway, one thing to look at - and - what they're probably looking for with feedback once it hits tribble is likely along the lines of the following (heck, it's even the pseudo analogy used)...
You've got 8 items giving you +X to your build. Each +X should be giving you an equal amount of +X. If you cut that down to 4 items giving you +2X to your build, with each +2X giving you an equal amount of +2X that is equal to twice X...then you haven't lost anything.
Unless you're running an odd number, eh?
7/1 to 3/1 would mean you've given up half of one for half of the other.
5/3 to 2/2 would also mean giving up half of one for half of the other. Going 3/1 would mean giving up one of one for one of the other.
Etc, etc, etc.
And is that where the beef's coming from?
In which way should I word this NERF that would meet with your approval??
Lets hear it for the Fan Boys... WoooooHooooo
I wasn't meaning to be hash. I am was just saying that is how the Devs designed the Warbirds... the boffs don't have anything to do with the warbird trade offs. You can use Romulan boffs on lokcbox ships or reward ships like the Risan and Breen, if you earned them.
I think you are making a point that perhaps the devs should consider a NEW romulan ship(s) that are not warbird class. Ships that use standard warp cores. This would give people perhaps a more easily obtained Romulan ship that uses a standard core. A new Romulan Cstore ship with no singularity powers and a core might sell better then they would expect.
I agree that the thinking behind it appears to be give us no restrictions in return for taking away some stuff.
Thing is, i believe it to be flawed thinking.
It's the laizze faire aspect of this that enables the strongest examples of min maxing.
I'd make two further changes.
Tier the passive slots, and make no restrictions on tier 5 skills.
The latter one isn't even going to be an issue until we hit more than 8 reps, at 10 or 12 reps, we'd get one or two more powers than the current system allows.
Tier 5 powers are not a source of power creep, and should be left alone.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=15993771
Romulan boffs in lockbock ships? Derp.... never having owned a lockbox ship, I did not know that. Silly of me. A2B romulan galor..... that does sound bad.
Honestly I think it would be best to allow romulan ships to use either a singularity core, or a warp core. The Singularity powers would not work with the warp core, of course.
Albeit they aren't a big part of it, they're definitely powers, and they're definitely creepin' in there, and they should definitely have a cost beyond "I leveled up my rep to get here!" Maybe a slot dedicated to Universal Space and Ground Powers as a compromise?
[EDIT]
According to Tribble Patch notes they did just that.
It's one of my favorite (albeit corny) jokes.
The Wells, Korath, and R'Mor are all the same ship - different appearance but same stats.
The R'Mor are more better though...cause of BOFFs.
R'Mor
Are'More
Are More Better
Are More Better cause of BOFFs!
For instance on my bug toon... which you have likely seen in some PvP match at some point. I would have Romulan and Borg Shield heals selected. Yes I would very often be running around with 10% hull and a go down fighitng up with nice hard shields. The amount of free heals off of the Tier 4 was impressive. Throw in one Embassy sci console... and role my shield resists. Also consider the current power levels... on my bug I am at 130 shield power pretty much all the time. (or a lot of it anyway so that borg tier 4 is in fact darn good as well... I think I am around 1500 shields per facing every 6s)
Those 2 traits let me ride the GDF wave quite a bit. When I got the Dyson Tier 4 it was even better... in those cases I would stack up aux to damp with an anti matter doff... and my Resistance was sky high.
I am also a lover of the Aegis 2 piece over the borg... for that reason... in that ship I can zip around with 100+ defense on a Fed toon... with more then enough shield healing to milk the GDF.
Because as of right now if the current system continued it equals out that way with 4 reps but as soon as a 5th rep comes out you lose out and it only gets larger as more and more reps come out. Not to mention the work each person in to get these powers expecting to always be able to use them to now be told sorry you just wasted your time you only get to use 4 space and 4 ground out of them all which in the grand scheme is even worse if there was like 10+ reps and out of 80 passives you only got to choose 8. what a waste of effing time.
x=number of passives you can select from new rep(s) (beyond the current 4)
y=number of passives available from new rep(s) (beyond the current 4)
Current system (16+x)/(32+y)
New system (2*8)/(32+y)
As you can see with the the new system immediately becomes less than the current system and over time that only becomes greater. As i stated above its also bad that every person spent long hours doing the rep with the expectation of using these powers to now be told sorry you now have to choose and in time find you completely wasted your time doing them because you will not use half the powers you accumulated because you do not have slots for it. what a complete and utter waste of time.
What lockbox ships are people using? Near as I can tell it's all fleet ships that folks are using to get those big ISE parses.
That is another option to... heck they could even role it into a rep seeing as we are talking about it.
What about a new rep set that had a romulan Warp core included with it... that disabled the singularity skills.
Not a bad idea at all.
"They took away the hourly bonus events, and all we did was complain about a free ship. Whatever is coming next, you deserve it."
This is pretty much that coming, and we do deserve this big pile of steaming bull TRIBBLE to land on our necks.
We pretty much let Cryptic get away with "New changes" that are very, very bad. They do something atrocious, the playerbase rolls over.
Yep, time to bite the pillow again. Look on the bright side. Nausicaans are getting Predator armor.... isnt that cool at least?
Everyone should have a nausicaan and give him Undine ground armor. Though we should warn poor Arnold first, or he'll get nightmares.
I don't think so, maybe with 230 reps it maybe a problem. As of right now, I'm seeing no problem with the current system. Why must we have so many passives anyway? Why not just stop making passives? Seems better than TRIBBLE Vet players over. Why do we need so many reps? Cryptic can't come up with a better way to reward hard work?
1 track mind syndrome it seems... Looking forward to the 230 reputations. New problem now, new players are overwhelmed by the 230 reputations at level 50... Errr. It's just one big cluster ****! Cryptic can't even keep the wiki updated... OMG OMG OMG. What's all this? I need help, nothing at STO-wiki on it.
If they're trying to fix power creep, they're doing in the smallest-- most tiny area possible. Reps. It's funny really. "My extra 0.2% shield generation rep power is too much creep. Let's nerf that. Just ignore mechanic that has that other dudes Boff powers on global cool down at all times. Ignore the dude with the 40% critical hit rate also." Let's nerf small stuff that may add up to something big in about 18 years... :rolleyes: Yes it's just that bad.
What I do not welcome is cryptic arbitrarily (in a dunce voice) "oh.. welll ummm.. I think we going to double this one to 200%.. and ummm... oh well ummmm increase this one by 150% and ummm...."
Because you know they didn't test it at all via the level that we would test it. That's how so many OP and power creep actually gets in the game despite us telling them about it on tribble during testing.
Cryptic mostly believes they know what is best for us.. and yet, here we are with these changes being necessary.
I can remember a time when STFs were hard.. and now I don't even take a dent.
Cryptic, if you would embrace the pvp community, you wouldn't be going through this right now.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
You think 40% crit hit chance matters? Defense rating is so out of balance that with your 1% accuracy , even 80% crit would not be enough.
Defense rating should be hard capped so it cant reduce accuracy below 30% .
Actually, I think all races should have access to these traits:
Romulan operative, Reman cloak extension, nausicaan damage boost, human repair boost, and the power level boost one.
What if Letheans and vulcans got Operative? Maybe Andorians damage boost? Gorn could have the repair boost.....
Why stop there. Why not just stop making content? Seems better than TRIBBLE Vet players over. Why do we need so much content? Cryptic can't come up with a better way to have this game function?
I'm left wondering if it's just from the hull-kill bias. Even preS7, it was a case of enjoying popping folks with full shields. Since then, they've added so many more ways to do it - that - well, shields schmields. Also, I guess with Willard having taken over as my main with LoR - I just got used to the hull tanking aspect as well. All of which probably plays into my thoughts on TT and the dismissal of the shield distro and the focus on the cleanse - with the thinking primarily being about the hull. Likewise, I've also never rode GDF on my Tacs for the same reason - and generally - my guys are all healthy or their dead...not much room to play there. Outside of an Eng popping MW, if I'm at 50% hull - I'm already dead - I just don't see the respawn button yet...lol.
There is other content than reputation systems.
Like harder STF maps, and such.... I have said it earlier in the thread.
Reputations are a kind of content, but one of the lazier ones. There is content beyond reputations.
Honestly, just a few days ago, I tanked an Elite ISE tactical cube in a tier 4 free ship, with Blue XI consoles and purple X weapons.
It was all down to good skill points, bo loadout, and well....skill. Powercreep? Free tier 4 ship, cheapskate consoles and weapons, no reputations or fleet gear at all. No doffs either save a green warp core and a green damage control one. Just playing well.
I did take more damage than usual, but that was the lack of hull armor consoles and good shields. I still healed trough it...well... until I blew up with the cube, being too close to it lol.
Different races have different traits... Rommies have high crit, but guess what... so can others... I have 2 Rommies, 1 KDF Klingon, 1 Fed Klingon and 1 Fed Human... just get the boffs from Embassy and proper consoles... and you will have it too... the devil is in details... just chose proper boffs, doffs and consoles and don't go with freighter against dreadnought... yeah, but I know what is the problem... you need bunch of fleet marks to get boffs and you don't want to invest that much effort... and Fleet Avenger or Mogh cost zen or dill or fc and you hate mining\trading\grinding... well... it's not my problem... it is yours and it will become Cryptic's once all paying customers leave the game because they don't want to play arcade...
a2b is ok, it has its advantages and faults... try healing with a2b... no one uses a2b in pvp if he/she wants to survive... When I play pvp and I have to use tank\heal option both on my tac and sci toons or I'm faced with epic fail, no a2b there... but I use it in pve for my tac... and everyone can too... what is your problem if I use it in pve??? My sci needs aux so a2b is not an option... and I'm very satisfied with my sci efficiency in combat...
Just except game mechanics and stop whining... learn it... whiners are ruining the game... instead of being cry babies try reading and grinding... it'll work better 4 all of us... as I already said even free players can become power players if they invest their time... I know that because we have them in our fleet...
and Cryptic... I suggest you take our handles from this thread and check what is average time spent in the game and average bucks spent for whiners and grinders and make your decisions based on the results... whiners will never be satisfied... they should be playing some arcade not STO...