So the entire reasoning for this nerf, and it is a nerf no matter how you want to classify it, is that you want new players to be in line with players that have been playing for years. That in itself is an insult to veteran players. They should have superior gear and things they have gained along the way that players who are new shouldn't immediately be able to get.
They love to insult whatever loyal player base they have lol.
I for one just won't be able to stomach even logging in that is how much faith and respect I have for them right now.
So, are you going to offer passive slots in the C-Store at all? I had to ask, since it seems the most obvious thing that potentially benefits this change.
Say hello to the other half of the powers and the ability to choose which powers you want--for free--on the fly.
What am I thinking half is always greater than the whole. /facepalm If their gonna pull this BS they should refund half the resources I put in these reps. Oh wait what are the odds of that?
-This will make new reputation powers obsolete, unless the new reputations have gear or powers so much powerful than those of previous reputations added before.
Reputations are all about "fighting the thing". That is to say, Omega rep is about fighting the Borg. Dyson rep is about fighting the Voth. Any new rep will be about fighting the critters that spawn in the content that give you marks for that rep.
-Taking stuff away from players is never a really good PR move.
Absolutely agree, and we all wish we'd had this system in place when we launched the Nukara rep. We didn't, but we can't let past oversight stand as the only reason not to make a change that actually improves how the game works as a game.
-This will of course open up "Buy more reputation trait slots" . Yes, others called that already.
This will never happen. More Reputation Slots could be given out via a game mechanic at some point, so I guess you could argue there could be a time cost or an effort cost to get another slot. But we are not charging people for Reputation Trait slots - please don't propagate fearmongering nonsense.
-This does lessen the grind, since it makes having more than 2 reputations maxed out pretty useless.
Sure, if all the powers you want come from two reps, then you shouldn't feel compelled to do the others! Our goal as designers is to make them all desirable under different conditions, so that everyone wants to collect them all eventually. But realistically, yes, you may feel less compelled to do some content with these limited choices.
I'm sorry you feel these changes are taking something from you. I assure you, this is not our intent. I completely understand why many of you are feeling that way, and I empathize with that feeling as a player. The one question I would like all of you to ask is, "If I were making this from the ground-up, with a blank slate, how would I make it?" Taking a step back from the emotional charge that comes from change, uncertainty, and different-ness, what would the best, most systemic, most fair, most consistent set of rules be for an alternate progression system that rewards participation in content?
We think this new system is the answer to that question. As I've mentioned repeatedly, though, all of this is subject to feedback on Tribble, and in any case where our stated goals are not being met, we will work swiftly to make this new system meet those goals.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
So the entire reasoning for this nerf, and it is a nerf no matter how you want to classify it, is that you want new players to be in line with players that have been playing for years. That in itself is an insult to veteran players. They should have superior gear and things they have gained along the way that players who are new shouldn't immediately be able to get.
You are using a logical FALLACY to justify this, Reductio ad absurdum.
There are not 100 reputations in this game. There are 4.
In those 4 reputations there are 16 passives, 8 ground, 8 space.
I have earned all of those passives, and the active abilities that accompany it by playing this content much of which is terrible and boring.
You are right there are 4 reps in the game... now.
In a few weeks there will be 5.
In a few months there will be 6.
In 6 months there will be 7.
in 8 months there will be 8.
In 12 months there will most likely be 9 or 10.
I hope you get the point now.
You have also NOT lost any thing.
You still have all 8 of your passives unlocked. You will simply not be able to activate all 8 at any one time.
IF they have it tied to ship loadouts as I think we can assume they will be. You could easily switch out setups for different PvE content. Running what ever you like for borg content, perhaps a completely different 4 for undine content... and perhaps another setup for PvP.
You will still have them all unlocked which a new player will NOT.
People will still do all the rep systems regardless as T5 is the only way to get the Active powers to get slotted. I am actually glad this has happened as it will really help new toons to hit the ground running.
Technically, the majority of the active powers are for space.
Who cares? I play ground missions 90% of the time.
I can now keep Nukara and Romulus at T3 forever.
Heck, I can also keep the next several dozen rep systems at T3 forever. Once you get your key passives in place, the other rep systems will no longer be important. You can now skip entire rep systems, and it will no longer affect you overall game play.
It was a mistake not to separate traits, I think - people just choose all space traits and sit up in space. If/when we revisit Traits and Skills, separating behavior for the two regions would make a lot of sense.
Soon
No plans to change skills/traits stuff right now, but maybe ask again later.
All future rep powers should meet the current standard of the revamped rep powers, not creep back to vertical power growth. The power rewards are interesting choices and build-affecting powers, which we can make now because we know there's a limit to the total number of said powers one can slot, and we can plan player performance around having that many powers slotted.
There is a reason people don't give a **** about ground. It is BAD, TERRIBAD. Like never beam down from your ship to do ground content BAD. The entire premise of ground content is BAD. It has a terrible feel when you play it. If it was revamped to be like a fps ground experience then it would be GOOD.
People choose space skills, space traits, space everything for two reasons:
Space is ok, ground is bad
STARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Trek
not ground trek.
anyways gl hf pce out may not be back.
this change might just have me quit this game altogether cause anything i do in it is a waste of my time.
You are seriously trying to make me believe you did not have 5 minutes of free time a day.
That's so silly, not even a five years old would believe it.
Still, this will make Nukara rep grind much more bearable.
A) There are days I'm nowhere near a computer with internet connectivity. There are days (though yes, this is increasingly rare) when I don't switch on my PC.
C) If I have 5 mins of free time I won't bother with launching STO for one little mission. I only launch STO if I know I'll have ample time for all I'll want to do (typically a matter of hours). At the very least I'd want to turn in contraband, exchange daily dil on all toons and start some basic Doff assignements.
Now, I don't know how old you are or what you believe in, so...
Either way, I'm happy with those changes (less so with the newly announced 'reputation traits').
EDIT: Euh, this was never supposed to be in this thread, no idea how it got here...
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
This is all really good feedback, and we're happy to look at any Reputation Trait that feels underwhelming in the new system and make sure it's up to snuff. We want them all to feel really potent.
While part of me hates myself for saying this, it might have been balanced better if you'd left the Tier 1 and 2 powers the same, but upped the Tier 3 and 4 powers as described in the blog (with the exception of the Borg remodulator, for reasons adequately pointed out elsewhere).
The Tier 1 and 2 powers were always good enough to be worth "cherry picking" even back in the day before sponsor tokens; ie, getting an alt to at least Tier 2 even if they weren't going to progress any further.
For example, 3% crit is great and the new 5% is spectacular. Why would anyone ever not take that?
What power creep are people referring too??? You mean the abilities that EVERYONE can get with some time and effort??
I'm sure you've noticed that a run through Ker'rat or similar, which used to be a challenge, can be done in 2 minutes flat (literally) with a few maxed-out players. Not just down to Rep alone of course, but that's something they need to sort without making it impossible for newer characters by boosting the NPCs or somesuch.
If you think about this in the right way, you can now walk away from STO after completing one or two rep systems. All the other ones no longer matter.
You no longer need to bring all reps up to tier 4 or 5.
Game will be over quickly.
Keep telling yourself this, maybe one day, you'll actually believe it. Don't make the mistake in presuming that this will force PWE to shut STO down...
But when you have invested time and effort and potentially money as some players do into the games reputation system to get something as advertised out of it to then have it taken away is theft.
While i do believe that they should be limits on how many Rep traits they should be, but i do not agree to a nerf that will put players to back when there was 2 reputation systems by limiting only 4 space and 4 ground.
so i will propose...
8 Space and 8 Ground having their own trait pool which any current or future traits can be customize in the pool with a respec token
or
8 Universal rep trait pool that works similar to the regular trait pool that be customize by a respec token (due to the nature in this game where character are either pure space or ground toons)
I will also suggest that both the Regular and Reputation trait pools should have a ''load out'' system similar to the weapon load out... of course if this were happen there will have to be a harsh CD time so players won't switch rep every few sec but instead by minutes.
I'm sure you've noticed that a run through Ker'rat or similar, which used to be a challenge, can be done in 2 minutes flat (literally) with a few maxed-out players. Not just down to Rep alone of course, but that's something they need to sort without making it impossible for newer characters by boosting the NPCs or somesuch.
kerrat was never a challenge....well it was when the game first launched and everyone had a basic ship.....
Reputations are all about "fighting the thing". That is to say, Omega rep is about fighting the Borg. Dyson rep is about fighting the Voth. Any new rep will be about fighting the critters that spawn int he content that give you marks for that rep.
Absolutely agree, and we all wish we'd had this system in place when we launched the Nukara rep. We didn't, but we can't let past oversight stand as the only reason not to make a change that actually improves how the game works as a game.
This will never happen. More Reputation Slots could be given out via a game mechanic at some point, so I guess you could argue there could be a time cost or an effort cost to get another slot. But we are not charging people for Reputation Trait slots - please don't propagate fearmongering nonsense.
Sure, if all the powers you want come from two reps, then you shouldn't feel compelled to do the others! Our goal as designers is to make them all desirable under different conditions, so that everyone wants to collect them all eventually. But realistically, yes, you may feel less compelled to do some content with these limited choices.
I'm sorry you feel these changes are taking something from you. I assure you, this is not our intent. I completely understand why many of you are feeling that way, and I empathize with that feeling as a player. The one question I would like all of you to ask is, "If I were making this from the ground-up, with a blank slate, how would I make it?" Taking a step back from the emotional charge that comes from change, uncertainty, and different-ness, what would the best, most systemic, most fair, most consistent set of rules be for an alternate progression system that rewards participation in content?
We think this new system is the answer to that question. As I've mentioned repeatedly, though, all of this is subject to feedback on Tribble, and in any case where our stated goals are not being met, we will work swiftly to make this new system meet those goals.
Instead of NERFING PLAYERS, BUFF CONTENT.
ESTF's are done in sub2 minutes
NWS has been 3 manned, and done in 6 minutes.
Its not a player problem for grinding for good gear and then using it well. its your problem for not making it harder to complete.
Keep telling yourself this, maybe one day, you'll actually believe it. Don't make the mistake in presuming that this will force PWE to shut STO down...
Not 'force'.
Since you can only slot so many passives and actives, the number of reputations that you need to complete will be minor. You will not have to work on every single system. Just choose what systems you want to complete.
Cryptic just put a bottleneck in their game. Why bother to collect all the passives and actives? You can only have so many active at once.
Make an avatar for space and another for ground. Its that simple.
well cryptic has done it again messing with things that are fine and not fixing anything that needs fixing, u have taken things that took people hundreds of hrs to get and did away with it. this is why I do not pay for this game anymore and either should anyone else. you [devs] are destroying this game with ur bs decisions. why don't u fix what needs fixing and leave the rest alone. the people in charge of this game definitely do not have their fingers on the pulse of this game and have no clue or caring for what the community wants[and never have]. u have made this game not fun anymore for anyone. pvp is destroyed not worth even attempting to go in qs. to take things away from the community that have spent hundreds of hrs acquiring is a total slap in the face to all of us who love this game. your realization of this is coming to slap u in the face sto as most of us if not all have had enough of this TRIBBLE and will be leaving this game for star citizen.hope ur satisfied [devs] but u have killed this game for all of us who put our hearts and soul in this game for absolutely nothing. from the aux to batt exploits to any of a hundred things that need fixing u TRIBBLE with things that work like the borg set just for more money. never was anything wrong with borg set made up TRIBBLE to nerf it and u know it. to sell other sets which is total bs. long live STAR CITIZEN may it be everything this game should have been but was ruined. GREAT JOB CRYPTIC .
You are right there are 4 reps in the game... now.
In a few weeks there will be 5.
In a few months there will be 6.
In 6 months there will be 7.
in 8 months there will be 8.
In 12 months there will most likely be 9 or 10.
I hope you get the point now.
You have also NOT lost any thing.
You still have all 8 of your passives unlocked. You will simply not be able to activate all 8 at any one time.
IF they have it tied to ship loadouts as I think we can assume they will be. You could easily switch out setups for different PvE content. Running what ever you like for borg content, perhaps a completely different 4 for undine content... and perhaps another setup for PvP.
You will still have them all unlocked which a new player will NOT.
You have lost nothing at all.
Ok so by your math, which i dont agree with btw, in 10 years we'll have 100. If this game makes it.
by not being able to use all of my passives that I currently can use, I will have lost half of what I grinded for. that math is op plz dont nerf tho ok ok
I don't WANT to be able to solo ISE in 30 seconds or single-handedly wipe entire teams in PVP. I want to work as a team with other players, cooperating and playing smart instead of mashing buttons wildly.
If I can solo any STF or non-1v1 PVP match in my T'varo, then this is not a halt to power creep. If I can min-max my scimitar to make it completely invincible AND able to instakill anything in the game, the game is no longer fun.
There are two problems right now, neither of them with the reputation system. Firstly, the Romulan Faction ships are overpowered compared to their Klingon and Federation counterparts. Romualn ships are basically Federation starships with Battle Cloak, a free commander science station (singularity abilities), and a -10 all power levels penalty as a downside. The problem is it is ridiculously easy to get around the power penalty without much effort. Secondly, the Borg NPcs aren't as intuitive as, say, the Voth. Borg NPCs are all about oneshot tactics and massive hulls. They don't have much in the way of buffs, which makes it possible for players to steamroll them.
I prefer the system as-is because it provides a set of buffs that reward dedicated players without giving anyone the power to single-handedly beat elite Borg STFs. The new version makes it hypothetically possible to solo ISE, if you min-max a scimmy or fleet Dhelan right. And then to respec rep traits and go 3-man Infected ground elite, if you have the right gear.
Honestly that is possible in the current system without reputation passives. The Borg aren't very intelligent. As with space, Borg NPCs rely on oneshot tactics that experienced players easily counter.
But only the bad ones take the stuff away. Good ones usually are either planned ahead well enough that they dont need to remove it, or get away with a nerf. Oh well, I got 6 TOR characters to level.
This isn't true though.
There have been MAJOR revamps in every game I have ever played. Including *cough* TOR.
Lotro - had 3 or 4 major revamps. Wow has had more then a few Rift had a few major changes... including one PvP change that had plenty of entitled high level players miffed. (even though the pvp in the game dried up to almost nothing).
Honestly I can't think of ONE MMO I have played that is more then a year old that hasn't had at least one MAJOR reworking of game mechanics.
Heck even STO around the one year mark had a major revamp of all healing skills. In comparison this change doesn't even rate as a change compared to that patch.
Reputations are all about "fighting the thing". That is to say, Omega rep is about fighting the Borg. Dyson rep is about fighting the Voth. Any new rep will be about fighting the critters that spawn int he content that give you marks for that rep.
I don't know, most things in-game can be overcome by justing adding more base damage, critical hit chance and severity. So really, the obvious choice is to just slot those. Damage is king after all. :P
This is all really good feedback, and we're happy to look at any Reputation Trait that feels underwhelming in the new system and make sure it's up to snuff. We want them all to feel really potent.
I don't think increasing the number of slots really meets the system revamp's goal of containing power creep or making Reputation trait choices more interesting and fulfilling to make, but as I think I wrote in the blog, everything is still up for discussion pending playtest feedback on Tribble.
So if keeping everything as is DOESNT prevent power creep you are essentially saying that you indeed ARE nerfing us. Because thats the only way maintaining us at the current abilities at 8/8 cant be identical to what you are already proposing.
And it isnt going to make it any more interesting or fulfilling, we just have less traits to pick for our best in slots.
The thing I don't understand is that passives are broken down into space & ground (4 each), why not the four actives?
Not that the ground end game is my thing, but what's the point of not seperating active abilities too? By default I'll have four space actives (as soon as/if four space clickables become available) and when a new featured episode comes out I'll re-arrange it to four ground actives when I'm on the ground and switch back for space. Save me the hassle and the steps of swapping by seperating the actives into ground and space too.
with only 4 actives and a 5th one on the way whats the point splitting them yet.
Frankly, the changes are good and it handles power creep well. I wish the character traits system worked the same way. Most people only slot space traits leaving the ground ones used only by those few who actually enjoy playing the ground part of this game.
For that matter, the ground skills and space skills should be split up. No more, choose more of one or the other. Might make people actually play ground content more.
Comments
They love to insult whatever loyal player base they have lol.
I for one just won't be able to stomach even logging in that is how much faith and respect I have for them right now.
maybe they are planning to get rid of doff abilities. now THAT would be funny to watch.
Those mutually exclusive pairs in the old system were there for a reason.
You could have one or the other but not both.
Thats power creep control, right there.
However, the new system will mean we can ignore the exclusions.
As someone said earlier, both the Nukara T4 powers on a sci boat (or anything with less than minimal aux) gets interestingly OP.
Maybe you'll add in another nerf, make each of those passive slots tier bound.......which means pick one tier 1 power, one tier 2 etc.
reckon if you did that thugh, you'd hear the nerd rage around the world.
So, are you going to offer passive slots in the C-Store at all? I had to ask, since it seems the most obvious thing that potentially benefits this change.
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
I'm sorry you feel these changes are taking something from you. I assure you, this is not our intent. I completely understand why many of you are feeling that way, and I empathize with that feeling as a player. The one question I would like all of you to ask is, "If I were making this from the ground-up, with a blank slate, how would I make it?" Taking a step back from the emotional charge that comes from change, uncertainty, and different-ness, what would the best, most systemic, most fair, most consistent set of rules be for an alternate progression system that rewards participation in content?
We think this new system is the answer to that question. As I've mentioned repeatedly, though, all of this is subject to feedback on Tribble, and in any case where our stated goals are not being met, we will work swiftly to make this new system meet those goals.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
You are right there are 4 reps in the game... now.
In a few weeks there will be 5.
In a few months there will be 6.
In 6 months there will be 7.
in 8 months there will be 8.
In 12 months there will most likely be 9 or 10.
I hope you get the point now.
You have also NOT lost any thing.
You still have all 8 of your passives unlocked. You will simply not be able to activate all 8 at any one time.
IF they have it tied to ship loadouts as I think we can assume they will be. You could easily switch out setups for different PvE content. Running what ever you like for borg content, perhaps a completely different 4 for undine content... and perhaps another setup for PvP.
You will still have them all unlocked which a new player will NOT.
You have lost nothing at all.
Who cares? I play ground missions 90% of the time.
I can now keep Nukara and Romulus at T3 forever.
Heck, I can also keep the next several dozen rep systems at T3 forever. Once you get your key passives in place, the other rep systems will no longer be important. You can now skip entire rep systems, and it will no longer affect you overall game play.
There is a reason people don't give a **** about ground. It is BAD, TERRIBAD. Like never beam down from your ship to do ground content BAD. The entire premise of ground content is BAD. It has a terrible feel when you play it. If it was revamped to be like a fps ground experience then it would be GOOD.
People choose space skills, space traits, space everything for two reasons:
Space is ok, ground is bad
STARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Trek
not ground trek.
anyways gl hf pce out may not be back.
this change might just have me quit this game altogether cause anything i do in it is a waste of my time.
A) There are days I'm nowhere near a computer with internet connectivity.
C) If I have 5 mins of free time I won't bother with launching STO for one little mission. I only launch STO if I know I'll have ample time for all I'll want to do (typically a matter of hours). At the very least I'd want to turn in contraband, exchange daily dil on all toons and start some basic Doff assignements.
Now, I don't know how old you are or what you believe in, so...
Either way, I'm happy with those changes (less so with the newly announced 'reputation traits').
EDIT: Euh, this was never supposed to be in this thread, no idea how it got here...
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
While part of me hates myself for saying this, it might have been balanced better if you'd left the Tier 1 and 2 powers the same, but upped the Tier 3 and 4 powers as described in the blog (with the exception of the Borg remodulator, for reasons adequately pointed out elsewhere).
The Tier 1 and 2 powers were always good enough to be worth "cherry picking" even back in the day before sponsor tokens; ie, getting an alt to at least Tier 2 even if they weren't going to progress any further.
For example, 3% crit is great and the new 5% is spectacular. Why would anyone ever not take that?
I'm sure you've noticed that a run through Ker'rat or similar, which used to be a challenge, can be done in 2 minutes flat (literally) with a few maxed-out players. Not just down to Rep alone of course, but that's something they need to sort without making it impossible for newer characters by boosting the NPCs or somesuch.
But when you have invested time and effort and potentially money as some players do into the games reputation system to get something as advertised out of it to then have it taken away is theft.
I will not support that!
so i will propose...
8 Space and 8 Ground having their own trait pool which any current or future traits can be customize in the pool with a respec token
or
8 Universal rep trait pool that works similar to the regular trait pool that be customize by a respec token (due to the nature in this game where character are either pure space or ground toons)
I will also suggest that both the Regular and Reputation trait pools should have a ''load out'' system similar to the weapon load out... of course if this were happen there will have to be a harsh CD time so players won't switch rep every few sec but instead by minutes.
kerrat was never a challenge....well it was when the game first launched and everyone had a basic ship.....
Instead of NERFING PLAYERS, BUFF CONTENT.
ESTF's are done in sub2 minutes
NWS has been 3 manned, and done in 6 minutes.
Its not a player problem for grinding for good gear and then using it well. its your problem for not making it harder to complete.
Hear Hear!
Since you can only slot so many passives and actives, the number of reputations that you need to complete will be minor. You will not have to work on every single system. Just choose what systems you want to complete.
Cryptic just put a bottleneck in their game. Why bother to collect all the passives and actives? You can only have so many active at once.
Make an avatar for space and another for ground. Its that simple.
This is hilarious. Course it was needed, but now we can look forward to half of them never getting used.....
Ok so by your math, which i dont agree with btw, in 10 years we'll have 100. If this game makes it.
by not being able to use all of my passives that I currently can use, I will have lost half of what I grinded for. that math is op plz dont nerf tho ok ok
Honestly that is possible in the current system without reputation passives. The Borg aren't very intelligent. As with space, Borg NPCs rely on oneshot tactics that experienced players easily counter.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Nuff
Berff
This isn't true though.
There have been MAJOR revamps in every game I have ever played. Including *cough* TOR.
Lotro - had 3 or 4 major revamps. Wow has had more then a few Rift had a few major changes... including one PvP change that had plenty of entitled high level players miffed. (even though the pvp in the game dried up to almost nothing).
Honestly I can't think of ONE MMO I have played that is more then a year old that hasn't had at least one MAJOR reworking of game mechanics.
Heck even STO around the one year mark had a major revamp of all healing skills. In comparison this change doesn't even rate as a change compared to that patch.
I don't know, most things in-game can be overcome by justing adding more base damage, critical hit chance and severity. So really, the obvious choice is to just slot those. Damage is king after all. :P
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
So if keeping everything as is DOESNT prevent power creep you are essentially saying that you indeed ARE nerfing us. Because thats the only way maintaining us at the current abilities at 8/8 cant be identical to what you are already proposing.
And it isnt going to make it any more interesting or fulfilling, we just have less traits to pick for our best in slots.
with only 4 actives and a 5th one on the way whats the point splitting them yet.
Except it doesnt make any changes when you change maps, its 4 ground and 4 space.
For that matter, the ground skills and space skills should be split up. No more, choose more of one or the other. Might make people actually play ground content more.