Says who? Who said that was the rule? Please point me to them, are they on the board of CBS or Paramount? Was it Gene Roddenberry who said this?
Who defined Star Trek Canon?
Do tell.
Funny you should aks that, because I didnt see you give some official source in your last post where you said:
Be careful where you go with this line of thinking.
A classic example of the exact opposite is the Superman franchise.
On screen is considered the soft canon, and comics are considered the hard canon in most circles.
Ah yes, you said "in most circles", and the same is true of Trek. So if "in most circles" was good enough for you to try to make your point, then it is for me too. And if you dont need to provide some official source when you are making your point, then neither do I.
The TV or Movie screentime definition is bunk from the outset. Much of the canon comes from the books and boardgames associated with the IP from back in the TOS era.
It is a very narrow and frankly self-defeating viewpoint to limit whats "star trek" and what isnt to a product that hasnt produced anything screen related in a decade (assuming of course that the reboot franchise is excluded like many seem to think it ought to be, which is extremely hypocritical to your definition... makes me wonder where you stand on JJTrek)
This, pretty much.
Star Trek's 'canon' is the weakest canon there is. If there was good canon that the shows actually adhered to then the TV shows wouldn't have been chock full of plot holes and inconsistencies.
Star Trek is a great example of a show that simply made it up as they went.
watch some of these. Besides bringing a smile to your face, they will remind you that the show's 'canon' was ALWAYS at the mercy of whomever happened to be writing the episode.
If those leaks are accurate...colour me impressed at Season 9.
An Undine Lockbox is inevitable. What I like is they're finally going to add in Undine AP beams. Hell to the yes. Love those weapons.
Mk XIII and XIV gear. I think it's unlikely that these will be implemented for S9 (though I could be wrong). I imagine there'd be much more on Tribble if they were considering upping the level of available gear, especially since they flat-out stated in Blog #3 that the next Rep and the Rep Revamp would only include Mk XII items. It's coming, no doubt, but not this season, I think.
Thoron Torp and Secondary Deflectors. We knew the Deflectors were coming, and this Thoron Torp sounds cool. Looks like a no-Mk item though, so maybe it'll be equipped on a C-Store ship, or more likely, a Lobi ship or store item.
Reputation. Looks awesome. Looking forward to seeing it finished, and doing away with the Voth placeholders. Another three-piece ground set, hope it has a costume unlock! Only thing I find odd is the inclusion of Bio-Molecular ground weapons when there don't appear to be any Anti-Undine ground queues as of yet. Hopefully, S9 will rectify this.
Kits. Kits in lockboxes. Hmmmm.
And no mention of a fleet holding? Also hmmmm.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
It seems like this whole argument stems from the fact that some people seem to think "not canon" is a bad thing. Its not. Not being canon means you have a lot more freedom in storytelling than if you have to stick to strict rules. That is exactly what Cryptic choose to set STO's time period post Nemesis rather than during TNG or DS9. That way they didnt have to stick to the confines of the existing storyline and worry about contradicting it. Not being canon is not bad. It just means that when/if a new Trek TV series comes out, they can completely disregard what any books/comics/video games have said happened without even attempting to try to explain the contradictions that might happen.
PS: and yes, even canon contradicts itself, but it usually tries to explain it eventually(like the Klingn head ridges in Enterprise). When something is not canon, then they dont even have to bother trying to explain it.
Mk XIII and XIV gear. I think it's unlikely that these will be implemented for S9 (though I could be wrong). I imagine there'd be much more on Tribble if they were considering upping the level of available gear, especially since they flat-out stated in Blog #3 that the next Rep and the Rep Revamp would only include Mk XII items. It's coming, no doubt, but not this season, I think.
I think it's pretty much guaranteed to come with Expansion #2 later this year. Legacy of Romulus added how many mainline missions to the game - 45? Now imagine the same effort being put into the Delta Quadrant expansion. Even half that number of cross-faction missions could warrant the bump up to 60.
It bugged me that the crew of Voyager never asked species 8472 what their species was actually called.
Actually, it's established that they communicate telepathically, and don't have name that other species can decipher. It bugged me that Cryptic would break canon and make species 8472 sound like some kind of fantasy mermaid.
Remember the following formulae guys: Profit > Lore/Canon ALWAYS.
I fully expect to see an Undine lockbox come Season 9, just how we saw the Voth LB when S8 launched. Makes no sense, but that's STO all over. Just how my ships senior staff consists of a Liberated Borg, Jem'hadar, Borg, Breen, Reman and a Voth Scientist. Canon went out the window LONG ago, it's why fans will never stop asking for Tier 5 Constitutions/NX's etc because there isn't any reason for it not to happen when we're flying around in all manner of alien ships and Fed/KDF ships from 500 years in the future.
Looking for a dedicated Star Trek community? Visit www.ufplanets.com for details.
Actually, it's established that they communicate telepathically, and don't have name that other species can decipher. It bugged me that Cryptic would break canon and make species 8472 sound like some kind of fantasy mermaid.
I'm guessing they just got tired of being called by their Borg Designation. :P
Actually, it's established that they communicate telepathically, and don't have name that other species can decipher. It bugged me that Cryptic would break canon and make species 8472 sound like some kind of fantasy mermaid.
It makes perfect sense to me if we assume that the name was given by humans or at least people familiar with human lore.
I am not a fan of the name, and I really would prefer keeping them called Species 8472, but it makes sense. Lives in some kind of fluid environment, odd powers, of course let'S call it Undine.
I suppose Species 8472 might consider it "racist" or something like that... But hey, we can give them a proper name they agree with once they stop infiltrating the Alpha Quadrant and are willing to talk peace.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think it's pretty much guaranteed to come with Expansion #2 later this year. Legacy of Romulus added how many mainline missions to the game - 45? Now imagine the same effort being put into the Delta Quadrant expansion. Even half that number of cross-faction missions could warrant the bump up to 60.
Yeah, that sounds more likely. What's been leaked is probably preliminary files.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
It's not the lottery that ruins the game itself. It's how desperate the people in charge are to put stuff in that lottery, not caring if that turns the game into a complete joke, just for the quick buck rather than being creative and earning their money.
AHahaahahaah!!!!
that was a good laugh. "Earning their money"? Like what? Making new ship models and storyling missions? *points at LoR*
I agree wholeheartedly. Undine ships are not something you can just slap a cybernetic interface onto. Even ignoring the likelihood that the ship would be actively trying to kill intruders, if Undine ships could so easily be reconfigured for a conventional crew, the war with the Borg would have been over so much quicker.
Yeah, right, I once found an Undine baby ship, and tried that, and totally failed.
It's as possible or impossible as the author want it to be. There is no real basis to work on here.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I really dont. You hope this stuff comes, meaning the game will be worst than ever.......
Is there another season coming? Then the game WILL be becoming worse than ever. Its a given. Its like they can't help themselves sometimes. In truth, players need to accept that pvp balance was never a thing after launch and never will be, and instead push Cryptic to make the faction/older ships competitive again. Even if its through purchasable upgrade tokens or whatever. Its almost embarrassing how the power creep has left Starfleet and the KDF behind.
It makes perfect sense to me if we assume that the name was given by humans or at least people familiar with human lore.
It has nothing to do with humans:
In the game Star Trek Online, Species 8472 told the Klingons to call them the "Undine", revealed in the tie-in novel The Needs of the Many to roughly translate from the Undine language as "Groundskeepers".
The TV or Movie screentime definition is bunk from the outset. Much of the canon comes from the books and boardgames associated with the IP from back in the TOS era.
It is a very narrow and frankly self-defeating viewpoint to limit whats "star trek" and what isnt to a product that hasnt produced anything screen related in a decade (assuming of course that the reboot franchise is excluded like many seem to think it ought to be, which is extremely hypocritical to your definition... makes me wonder where you stand on JJTrek)
No canon comes from any of the sources you mentioned. Only on-screen reference is "canon", the definition of canon is given on the startrek.com website, amongst other sources. Memory Alpha is the top reference for anything Star Trek, because everything is cited with a on-screen reference. In addition they even have apocryphical canon like production notes, screenwriting drafts and technical manual definitions - those aren't canon either, but they are the next best thing and help in discussions regarding the topic.
That does not mean that any other sources are necessarily bad or anything, they just are "soft canon" which simply means that anything you read in a star trek novel or see in a star trek game doesn't "exist" outside of that particular work. "Hard canon" however is what was established in the shows and movies. This is stuff a piece of work basically "has" to follow.
By this logic, you throw out every single game, book, comic, etc ever made for ANY series.
See above. Just because it's only soft canon doesn't mean I'm throwing anything out. It just means everything NOT able to come up with a on-screen citation doesn't hold water in any discussion concerning "canon". There are still Star Trek games and stories that are not canon I enjoy very much
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I like how some people here think.
"players flying undine ships? That's not realistic!"
If STO was realistic, so many players would be in the ships brig within thirty minutes of playing.
You want to throw away your phaser rifle to use that cool plasma rifle you found laying on the ground? Too bad. The armory officer gave you a phaser rifle, and he/she better get a phaser rifle back when you need to turn in your weapons.
You want to change your uniform to something you think looks cool? too bad, you're breaking uniform regulations.
You've been promoted to a new rank? Cool. Here's a new pip. That's all. Now get back to business.
Or...
You've been promoted to captain? Cool. Here, you can have this specific ship. What? Choosing the ship you command? Don't be silly.
You came back to ESD with your ships phaser beams swapped out with Romulan Plasma cannons? Say good bye to your command. You're getting busted down to Ensign (if you're lucky) for blatant tampering with Starfleet property, because you don't own the ship, you're just in charge of it.
You're selling contraband on the exchange? Welcome to the brig. You're a smuggler, and now you have no future in Star Fleet.
Says who? Who said that was the rule? Please point me to them, are they on the board of CBS or Paramount? Was it Gene Roddenberry who said this?
Who defined Star Trek Canon?
Do tell.
The IP holder. I don't follow business mergers in the US, so I don't know what particular entity this was at the time, but before the split up of Paramount and CBS and the division of the ST franchise (movies - Paramount; TV shows - CBS) it has been stated by those IP holders that anything that was seen on screen is to be considered canon. In addition, other materials can be conisdered canon if they're designated as canon by them and in cases those other source materials conflict with what was said and seen on screen - the on-screen canon trumps every other.
Comments
Funny you should aks that, because I didnt see you give some official source in your last post where you said:
Ah yes, you said "in most circles", and the same is true of Trek. So if "in most circles" was good enough for you to try to make your point, then it is for me too. And if you dont need to provide some official source when you are making your point, then neither do I.
This, pretty much.
Star Trek's 'canon' is the weakest canon there is. If there was good canon that the shows actually adhered to then the TV shows wouldn't have been chock full of plot holes and inconsistencies.
Star Trek is a great example of a show that simply made it up as they went.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=star%20trek%20inconsistencies&sm=1
watch some of these. Besides bringing a smile to your face, they will remind you that the show's 'canon' was ALWAYS at the mercy of whomever happened to be writing the episode.
An Undine Lockbox is inevitable. What I like is they're finally going to add in Undine AP beams. Hell to the yes. Love those weapons.
Mk XIII and XIV gear. I think it's unlikely that these will be implemented for S9 (though I could be wrong). I imagine there'd be much more on Tribble if they were considering upping the level of available gear, especially since they flat-out stated in Blog #3 that the next Rep and the Rep Revamp would only include Mk XII items. It's coming, no doubt, but not this season, I think.
Thoron Torp and Secondary Deflectors. We knew the Deflectors were coming, and this Thoron Torp sounds cool. Looks like a no-Mk item though, so maybe it'll be equipped on a C-Store ship, or more likely, a Lobi ship or store item.
Reputation. Looks awesome. Looking forward to seeing it finished, and doing away with the Voth placeholders. Another three-piece ground set, hope it has a costume unlock! Only thing I find odd is the inclusion of Bio-Molecular ground weapons when there don't appear to be any Anti-Undine ground queues as of yet. Hopefully, S9 will rectify this.
Kits. Kits in lockboxes. Hmmmm.
And no mention of a fleet holding? Also hmmmm.
PS: and yes, even canon contradicts itself, but it usually tries to explain it eventually(like the Klingn head ridges in Enterprise). When something is not canon, then they dont even have to bother trying to explain it.
system Lord Baal is dead
I think it's pretty much guaranteed to come with Expansion #2 later this year. Legacy of Romulus added how many mainline missions to the game - 45? Now imagine the same effort being put into the Delta Quadrant expansion. Even half that number of cross-faction missions could warrant the bump up to 60.
Actually, it's established that they communicate telepathically, and don't have name that other species can decipher. It bugged me that Cryptic would break canon and make species 8472 sound like some kind of fantasy mermaid.
I fully expect to see an Undine lockbox come Season 9, just how we saw the Voth LB when S8 launched. Makes no sense, but that's STO all over. Just how my ships senior staff consists of a Liberated Borg, Jem'hadar, Borg, Breen, Reman and a Voth Scientist. Canon went out the window LONG ago, it's why fans will never stop asking for Tier 5 Constitutions/NX's etc because there isn't any reason for it not to happen when we're flying around in all manner of alien ships and Fed/KDF ships from 500 years in the future.
Looking for a dedicated Star Trek community? Visit www.ufplanets.com for details.
My character Tsin'xing
It makes perfect sense to me if we assume that the name was given by humans or at least people familiar with human lore.
I am not a fan of the name, and I really would prefer keeping them called Species 8472, but it makes sense. Lives in some kind of fluid environment, odd powers, of course let'S call it Undine.
I suppose Species 8472 might consider it "racist" or something like that... But hey, we can give them a proper name they agree with once they stop infiltrating the Alpha Quadrant and are willing to talk peace.
Yeah, that sounds more likely. What's been leaked is probably preliminary files.
that was a good laugh. "Earning their money"? Like what? Making new ship models and storyling missions? *points at LoR*
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah, right, I once found an Undine baby ship, and tried that, and totally failed.
It's as possible or impossible as the author want it to be. There is no real basis to work on here.
Is there another season coming? Then the game WILL be becoming worse than ever. Its a given. Its like they can't help themselves sometimes. In truth, players need to accept that pvp balance was never a thing after launch and never will be, and instead push Cryptic to make the faction/older ships competitive again. Even if its through purchasable upgrade tokens or whatever. Its almost embarrassing how the power creep has left Starfleet and the KDF behind.
It has nothing to do with humans:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Species_8472#Apocrypha
The Borg want out money?
Oh look, mark valiantly jumping on Cryptic's defense once again. Soooo....what's new? :rolleyes:
No canon comes from any of the sources you mentioned. Only on-screen reference is "canon", the definition of canon is given on the startrek.com website, amongst other sources. Memory Alpha is the top reference for anything Star Trek, because everything is cited with a on-screen reference. In addition they even have apocryphical canon like production notes, screenwriting drafts and technical manual definitions - those aren't canon either, but they are the next best thing and help in discussions regarding the topic.
That does not mean that any other sources are necessarily bad or anything, they just are "soft canon" which simply means that anything you read in a star trek novel or see in a star trek game doesn't "exist" outside of that particular work. "Hard canon" however is what was established in the shows and movies. This is stuff a piece of work basically "has" to follow.
See above. Just because it's only soft canon doesn't mean I'm throwing anything out. It just means everything NOT able to come up with a on-screen citation doesn't hold water in any discussion concerning "canon". There are still Star Trek games and stories that are not canon I enjoy very much
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
"players flying undine ships? That's not realistic!"
If STO was realistic, so many players would be in the ships brig within thirty minutes of playing.
You want to throw away your phaser rifle to use that cool plasma rifle you found laying on the ground? Too bad. The armory officer gave you a phaser rifle, and he/she better get a phaser rifle back when you need to turn in your weapons.
You want to change your uniform to something you think looks cool? too bad, you're breaking uniform regulations.
You've been promoted to a new rank? Cool. Here's a new pip. That's all. Now get back to business.
Or...
You've been promoted to captain? Cool. Here, you can have this specific ship. What? Choosing the ship you command? Don't be silly.
You came back to ESD with your ships phaser beams swapped out with Romulan Plasma cannons? Say good bye to your command. You're getting busted down to Ensign (if you're lucky) for blatant tampering with Starfleet property, because you don't own the ship, you're just in charge of it.
You're selling contraband on the exchange? Welcome to the brig. You're a smuggler, and now you have no future in Star Fleet.
The IP holder. I don't follow business mergers in the US, so I don't know what particular entity this was at the time, but before the split up of Paramount and CBS and the division of the ST franchise (movies - Paramount; TV shows - CBS) it has been stated by those IP holders that anything that was seen on screen is to be considered canon. In addition, other materials can be conisdered canon if they're designated as canon by them and in cases those other source materials conflict with what was said and seen on screen - the on-screen canon trumps every other.
No matter how much I play this game, whenever someone say's "Undine" I will always think of sexy water fairies.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130629235714/yugioh/images/thumb/c/c0/GenexUndine-AP01-EN-SR-UE.png/300px-GenexUndine-AP01-EN-SR-UE.png
That is what i think of when i think of undine
We're all nerds in our own special way. :P
In all seriousness I kinda hope this wont come to be...