I think scaling up would be a bad idea, I think it makes sense that there are some old style docks around for those big ships. At the end of the day its a scaffolding frame, there is not much tech there to get outdated.
I doubt you would have the required time but if you are dead set on not using the old style docks perhaps modify the existing model to add a second type, the frame has effectively large hinges which would suggest it has a modifiable size where by the sides flatten downwards instead of coming in at the bottom. Dot a few of those around in addition to the Tribble ones.
Current collision boxes need to be addressed but I really think some older docks should remain perhaps even Mcklinly station. But please don't use the docks at the Fleet bases, they will not look right here.
I'm not sure it's ever mentioned anywhere in canon WHAT ESD is in Geosynchronous orbit over. . . but there was somewhere that listed the Atlantic Ocean (theory being that if it fell, it would fall into the ocean, rather than onto San Francisco).
This is exactly the problem. All characters have collision bubbles. They're pill shaped capsules used for collision rather than the full geo of the character. This includes ships.
While the ship team endeavors to get the capsule as close to the right size for the ship as possible, it's always going to be a square peg in a round hole. It's just not going to line up perfectly. In general, that means the collision is oversized slightly, so that you don't end up hiding other ships within your own hull.
No, your bigger (taller) ships will never fit in there. So, the question is what to do about that. I don't want to go back to using 2200's era drydocks. I can make them bigger, which might be ok, but they'd have to be significantly bigger to fit most ships. I could turn off collision on them entirely, which would let you park anything in there, but you could fly through the whole thing . . .
Opinions?
It's not THAT close. It is to scale with the rest of the ships parked/flying around out there.
Remember that McKinley is basically just a drydock. It is barely larger than a galaxy class. It would be invisible at any distance, and chances are, it's not parked next to ESD.
Add 2 or 3 23rd century drydocks that can fit other ships types. Keep the 24th century docks as is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drogyn1701 View Post
hmm, coulda sworn someone said it was supposed to be over San Fransisco. Oh well. Atlantic it is!
I'm not sure it's ever mentioned anywhere in canon WHAT ESD is in Geosynchronous orbit over. . . but there was somewhere that listed the Atlantic Ocean (theory being that if it fell, it would fall into the ocean, rather than onto San Francisco).
I figured that ESD was actually in a LaGrange point. that that would greatly reduce the effort needed to keep it in place.
Originally Posted by druhin View Post
Standing in Ops gazing out over Earth, I find myself thinking that the passing Sovereign Class looked rather small. Due to it's closeness to the station window, it should be HUGE, to the point of pretty much covering your entire view when it passes by.
Speaking of, McKinley Station is also in Earth Orbit. Any chance of a model addition to the Earth space map?
It's not THAT close. It is to scale with the rest of the ships parked/flying around out there.
Remember that McKinley is basically just a drydock. It is barely larger than a galaxy class. It would be invisible at any distance, and chances are, it's not parked next to ESD.
*I figured McKinnley was more of a special repair platform. once its hooked onto a ship like it was, the ship could be fully powered down and the dock be used for station keeping or maybe even limited movement.
Well remember the actual drydocks supposedly have moveable components that can rearrange themselves to suit different ships. It might not hurt to stick a couple ships in docks just to make the view consistent.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Hey Taco, I think the best way is, to delete the collision bubble from ships, and make the Drydock a little bit larger.
But the lovleyst Thing ist, that we get addianal Drydocks for an fetured ship, like the McKinley-STation. You create one, how we see an featured ship in building state and 2 free drydocks for docking us players.
And I would see, that we can repair our ships in the drydocks. I know its a lot of work, but are able to implement this, and I think its time for you to follow up. And if there are problems with the engine, then please resolve them. You recive our money, for a briliant job and nothing less.
Taco, I like the new changes to ESD however I just have one minor change I would very much like to see (also I did find your corpse chute as well :P)
Anyway, the transporter is labelled "Starfleet Academy" as seen here: http://puu.sh/7KOSC.jpg
I would like to see that SFA label replaced with Earth. Yes, I know you can only go to SFA on Earth however it would make more sense as IC you can transport to different spots on Earth, not just SFA. That's just a minor complaint I have however.
Maybe a mix of Drydocks? I mean if starfleet isn't throwing out old hulls, then they're probably not throwing out old Drydocks either. Some of the 2200 Drydocks could be around. Or, if you're concerned about that, what about the Drydocks from the Fleet Starbase? They're a more modern design and they can even fit an Odyssey-class.
Beyond that the only real solution (because I think turning off collision is bad) would be to scale up these drydocks.
To me, it would stand to reason that as ships got bigger, starfleet would have to fabricate a new drydock class to accommodate. perhaps a new 2409 class can be created sometime down the road? And for now, leave the nemisis classes as they are.
To me, it would stand to reason that as ships got bigger, starfleet would have to fabricate a new drydock class to accommodate. perhaps a new 2409 class can be created sometime down the road? And for now, leave the nemisis classes as they are.
A new "2409 class" drydock already exists ingame: The Fleet Starbase map drydocks.
A new "2409 class" drydock already exists ingame: The Fleet Starbase map drydocks.
who says it has to be one kind? at its simplest, a box dock is just a frame with a bunch of lights and some mooring tractors or clamps to hold the dock and the ship together to aid exterior hull work. and they would definitely come in either different sizes or adjustable.
It makes sense that the 'wings' on the drydocks would be hinged and able to open to various positions to accommodate different ships. This is a 60 second fix in Maya/Max. Grab wing verts, snap rotation pivot to one of the joints, rotate to desired angle. This doesn't even cause any UV stretching if the docks are a single polygon thick with a two-sided shader, or minimal distortion if the dock has actual thickness.
Of course that 60 seconds in [Modeling Package] then has the additional export, import, and setup time for getting it in-engine which might be more time than can be allotted. It might be faster to just bring in a few of the fleet starbase drydock meshes if they can be made separate objects from their stations.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Actually, due to the rotation of the Earth, if it were over the Atlantic when it fell, wouldn't it fall onto North America? If it were over San Francisco, it would fall into the Pacific.
I've thought the same thing, but if it's in geosynchronous orbit, the bulk of it would continue to rotate with the Earth.
How is the collision oriented on the drydock? Can you reduce it to just being over the solid part with no collision on the sides? Can collision here be in separate parts or does it have to be in pill form? If separate parts, can you have basically 3 collision bubbles, one on top along the solid spine, and one on the outside part of each side?
The Drydocks have collision per polygon. We can modify that, but I don't think removing the side collision is the issue. I think the issue is that the dock is not tall enough for many ships.
I'll add some of the Fleet drydocks around as they fit better. I think I'll leave the Nemesis era ones out of the window though.
I figured that ESD was actually in a LaGrange point. that that would greatly reduce the effort needed to keep it in place.
First of all, can you please use quotes like they're intended. I have a hell of a time reading your posts when I can't tell what are your words and what are someone else's.
Secondly, the ISS isn't at a Lagrange point. And when ESD has been shown on screen, it is far closer to Earth than it would be at a Lagrange point.
I would like to see that SFA label replaced with Earth. Yes, I know you can only go to SFA on Earth however it would make more sense as IC you can transport to different spots on Earth, not just SFA. That's just a minor complaint I have however.
Wouldn't that be false advertising? I feel like if we changed it to say "Earth" people would be mad that they couldn't go anywhere they wanted to on Earth. (sorry, these are the kinds of devil's advocate discussions we have CONSTANTLY)
I'll add some of the Fleet drydocks around as they fit better. I think I'll leave the Nemesis era ones out of the window though.
)
I think it is important to keep the vista seen from the Admiral's office as close to what we actually encounter in the Sol System map as possible. Otherwise it's kinda immersion-breaker.
I think it is important to keep the vista seen from the Admiral's office as close to what we actually encounter in the Sol System map as possible. Otherwise it's kinda immersion-breaker.
There is other parts of Space. He said he's keeping those. The other docks can go in the other 200* of Space that isnt visible from the social map.
Haha awesome! I totally want to dance on the hull.
I actually walked into Ops yesterday just as it was flying by, brilliant timing, totally made my day. It's the little (or in this case big I guess) things that just make it feel so much more alive.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
I'll add some of the Fleet drydocks around as they fit better. I think I'll leave the Nemesis era ones out of the window though.
Please don't, at the moment it is perfect canon representation, adding the Fleet Docks will ruin that. They are gigantic, huge, way too big.
Whats so wrong about having some of the current style Docks, if the old ones were destroyed it would be far easier to tow some from Mars than to construct those gigantic docks seen at the fleetbases. At the end of the day they are scaffolding frames, a fleet dry dock is a major construction and the major constructions around Earth have finally been removed.
Please don't do it.
EDIT: Here is an image of a sovereign in a fleet dry dock, the sovereign is utterly dwarfed. http://i.imgur.com/WnbZLWf.png
I was looking at the holographic display with ESD and the ships around it. Some interesting touches there, apparently the Lakota is still on Earth duty. I did notice a few ships that seem to be misclassed, though:
Shouldn't the USS Cerberus be a Cerberus-class, not a Prometheus-class? Presumably the one currently in service should be the lead vessel of that variant.
The same logic would go to the Rhode Island (listed as Nova-class) and the Magestic (listed as Sovereign-class).
Other vessels on the display have variant classes like Sao Paulo and Regent listed.
Shouldn't the USS Cerberus be a Cerberus-class, not a Prometheus-class? Presumably the one currently in service should be the lead vessel of that variant.
The same logic would go to the Rhode Island (listed as Nova-class) and the Magestic (listed as Sovereign-class).
Other vessels on the display have variant classes like Sao Paulo and Regent listed.
The Rhode Island is a Nova Class Refit/Variant, but still a Nova Class.
Funny part I always realized is during First Combat clip how much larger the sovy is compared to the defiant. Scaling has always been an issue here in sto lol.
Earth is now in the skyfile, meaning it moves with you the same way the sun appears to. You can never get closer/farther from it.
More trade offs. Is it better to have a smaller earth, which you can fly around, but might feel stupidly tiny for a planet. . . or a skyfile Earth, that is huge, and makes space feel like space, but never changes in your view?
I prefer the latter.
While I appreciate the visuals artistically and realistically, I can't help but feel there's actually less "fun stuff" going on in the ESD space map than there used to be.
I know it's more accurate to how Earth orbit would be as opposed to the old ESD space map, but I tend to enjoy swooping around the planets in STO than never ever reaching them. It's the kind of thing I enjoyed doing in older Trek games, even if the planet sizes weren't very realistic. As long as they *look* big enough to keep my sense of disbelief going, it never bothered me if they were smaller than they should be.
Who *doesn't* like skipping over the atmosphere when they're idling? =P
That aside, I do like the more accurate representation of Earth's starry surroundings.
The Drydocks have collision per polygon. We can modify that, but I don't think removing the side collision is the issue. I think the issue is that the dock is not tall enough for many ships.
I'll add some of the Fleet drydocks around as they fit better. I think I'll leave the Nemesis era ones out of the window though.
I think if you had a few groupings of various types of drydocks about, even the older ones (for the smaller ships?), all in groupings to themselves to represent the San Francisco yards (presuming they could be known as such), resized enough perhaps to fit certain types of ships, that would be handy for those of us who want to use them for idling/screenshotting/space RP(?).
This way, the Nemesis drydocks would still retain their position (and be "seen" outside the window from the interior) but then there'd be a few groupings around the spacedock area of the other drydock types.
Also, if a way to allow certain sizes and types of ships (Starfleet vessels at least) to fit in various-sized drydocks is worked out, one thing I'd personally appreciate is allowing the camera to clip in and out of the drydock models without getting bumped around.
Another thing I was kind of thinking about that might be too much work for the time being would be to have a "seating" position for ships to use the drydocks like how characters can use certain chairs. Might even be kind of cool to have them utilize a ship repair option, but that's a lot of extra stuff that's taking it a bit further... >_>
I'm also a little disappointed we don't get a bit more of the interior shuttlebay to explore without the annoying invisible walls. I understand not having players running around the whole length of it, but would have been neat to have at least one section of the landing area available, possibly with functionality in the future.
I also feel some of the invisible walls are a little too "thick," at least the ones around the decorative angled glass panes around the shipyard area that extend out a bit too far. Try running around them and you'll see.
With all that being said, I love the new interior so much, it's gorgeous and much more representative of ESD than the old, impossibly-fitting interior.
I had this thought last night after going to bed, and I think someone else mentioned it earlier (I lost the post).
In 'normal' operations of a space station you would regularly have people arriving and departing from both the transporter & the shuttle bays (as well as docked ships). Since we can now use these two to at least depart from. That would make the somewhat empty platform in the shuttle bay a sort of boarding area for shuttles.
So why not add a console there (like the one in the transporter) and a guy positioned behind it whom would act as sort of a gate-agent. When you shuttle down from there he'd be the one in the interact ui. You could give him some basic lines to say occasionally like:
"Shuttle 86 to Starfleet Academy is now boarding from Gate C."
"U.S.S. Danube will be departing to Deep Space 9 in 20 mins."
"The S.S. Gimmelwald will be arriving from Regulus VI shortly. People are reminded that cargo will be unloaded after all passengers have disembarked."
I think if you had a few groupings of various types of drydocks about, even the older ones (for the smaller ships?), all in groupings to themselves to represent the San Francisco yards (presuming they could be known as such), resized enough perhaps to fit certain types of ships, that would be handy for those of us who want to use them for idling/screenshotting/space RP(?).
This way, the Nemesis drydocks would still retain their position (and be "seen" outside the window from the interior) but then there'd be a few groupings around the spacedock area of the other drydock types.
Also, if a way to allow certain sizes and types of ships (Starfleet vessels at least) to fit in various-sized drydocks is worked out, one thing I'd personally appreciate is allowing the camera to clip in and out of the drydock models without getting bumped around.
Another thing I was kind of thinking about that might be too much work for the time being would be to have a "seating" position for ships to use the drydocks like how characters can use certain chairs. Might even be kind of cool to have them utilize a ship repair option, but that's a lot of extra stuff that's taking it a bit further... >_>
I concur with these thoughts. Adding the Fleet yard type for the larger player ships is good. But keep some of the other Drydock model types from the previous Sol system maps.
The 'seating mechanic' being later adapted for Drydock docking is a brilliant idea. :cool:
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I can only hope there are other choices for what textures they can use for those models, the textures and markings on both the Sovereign and the Odyssey are pretty bland.
Its more like the people that made the models and textures just reached that point and said "good enough" ... 4 years later and its still just "good enough" ...
And yes, the is a multitude of small and bigger things that are just WRONG with cannonical ships in this game that never got fix or looks like they ever be corrected, the Soverign model and textures is just one of those, its just "good enough", not good and certainly not right.
Many of the designs are ok, although fault can be found in all of them if you look for it, but some are simply unacceptable and don't even come close to qualifying as "good enough".
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Comments
I doubt you would have the required time but if you are dead set on not using the old style docks perhaps modify the existing model to add a second type, the frame has effectively large hinges which would suggest it has a modifiable size where by the sides flatten downwards instead of coming in at the bottom. Dot a few of those around in addition to the Tribble ones.
Current collision boxes need to be addressed but I really think some older docks should remain perhaps even Mcklinly station. But please don't use the docks at the Fleet bases, they will not look right here.
Add 2 or 3 23rd century drydocks that can fit other ships types. Keep the 24th century docks as is.
STOWiki admin.
Originally Posted by drogyn1701 View Post
hmm, coulda sworn someone said it was supposed to be over San Fransisco. Oh well. Atlantic it is!
I'm not sure it's ever mentioned anywhere in canon WHAT ESD is in Geosynchronous orbit over. . . but there was somewhere that listed the Atlantic Ocean (theory being that if it fell, it would fall into the ocean, rather than onto San Francisco).
I figured that ESD was actually in a LaGrange point. that that would greatly reduce the effort needed to keep it in place.
Originally Posted by druhin View Post
Standing in Ops gazing out over Earth, I find myself thinking that the passing Sovereign Class looked rather small. Due to it's closeness to the station window, it should be HUGE, to the point of pretty much covering your entire view when it passes by.
Speaking of, McKinley Station is also in Earth Orbit. Any chance of a model addition to the Earth space map?
It's not THAT close. It is to scale with the rest of the ships parked/flying around out there.
Remember that McKinley is basically just a drydock. It is barely larger than a galaxy class. It would be invisible at any distance, and chances are, it's not parked next to ESD.
*I figured McKinnley was more of a special repair platform. once its hooked onto a ship like it was, the ship could be fully powered down and the dock be used for station keeping or maybe even limited movement.
But the lovleyst Thing ist, that we get addianal Drydocks for an fetured ship, like the McKinley-STation. You create one, how we see an featured ship in building state and 2 free drydocks for docking us players.
And I would see, that we can repair our ships in the drydocks. I know its a lot of work, but are able to implement this, and I think its time for you to follow up. And if there are problems with the engine, then please resolve them. You recive our money, for a briliant job and nothing less.
If they did that you could fly through everything, including the planets.
Anyway, the transporter is labelled "Starfleet Academy" as seen here: http://puu.sh/7KOSC.jpg
I would like to see that SFA label replaced with Earth. Yes, I know you can only go to SFA on Earth however it would make more sense as IC you can transport to different spots on Earth, not just SFA. That's just a minor complaint I have however.
To me, it would stand to reason that as ships got bigger, starfleet would have to fabricate a new drydock class to accommodate. perhaps a new 2409 class can be created sometime down the road? And for now, leave the nemisis classes as they are.
A new "2409 class" drydock already exists ingame: The Fleet Starbase map drydocks.
who says it has to be one kind? at its simplest, a box dock is just a frame with a bunch of lights and some mooring tractors or clamps to hold the dock and the ship together to aid exterior hull work. and they would definitely come in either different sizes or adjustable.
Of course that 60 seconds in [Modeling Package] then has the additional export, import, and setup time for getting it in-engine which might be more time than can be allotted. It might be faster to just bring in a few of the fleet starbase drydock meshes if they can be made separate objects from their stations.
Joined January 2009
I've thought the same thing, but if it's in geosynchronous orbit, the bulk of it would continue to rotate with the Earth.
The Drydocks have collision per polygon. We can modify that, but I don't think removing the side collision is the issue. I think the issue is that the dock is not tall enough for many ships.
I'll add some of the Fleet drydocks around as they fit better. I think I'll leave the Nemesis era ones out of the window though.
First of all, can you please use quotes like they're intended. I have a hell of a time reading your posts when I can't tell what are your words and what are someone else's.
Secondly, the ISS isn't at a Lagrange point. And when ESD has been shown on screen, it is far closer to Earth than it would be at a Lagrange point.
Wouldn't that be false advertising? I feel like if we changed it to say "Earth" people would be mad that they couldn't go anywhere they wanted to on Earth. (sorry, these are the kinds of devil's advocate discussions we have CONSTANTLY)
This is the Sovvy positioned just outside the OPS window.
I think it is important to keep the vista seen from the Admiral's office as close to what we actually encounter in the Sol System map as possible. Otherwise it's kinda immersion-breaker.
STOWiki admin.
Fair enough. Might've been the angle, or viewpoint at the time I saw it flying by, but the windows looked super tiny :P
I wonder what Commander Burgess is thinking at that moment.
There is other parts of Space. He said he's keeping those. The other docks can go in the other 200* of Space that isnt visible from the social map.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Haha awesome! I totally want to dance on the hull.
I actually walked into Ops yesterday just as it was flying by, brilliant timing, totally made my day. It's the little (or in this case big I guess) things that just make it feel so much more alive.
Please don't, at the moment it is perfect canon representation, adding the Fleet Docks will ruin that. They are gigantic, huge, way too big.
Whats so wrong about having some of the current style Docks, if the old ones were destroyed it would be far easier to tow some from Mars than to construct those gigantic docks seen at the fleetbases. At the end of the day they are scaffolding frames, a fleet dry dock is a major construction and the major constructions around Earth have finally been removed.
Please don't do it.
EDIT: Here is an image of a sovereign in a fleet dry dock, the sovereign is utterly dwarfed.
http://i.imgur.com/WnbZLWf.png
Shouldn't the USS Cerberus be a Cerberus-class, not a Prometheus-class? Presumably the one currently in service should be the lead vessel of that variant.
The same logic would go to the Rhode Island (listed as Nova-class) and the Magestic (listed as Sovereign-class).
Other vessels on the display have variant classes like Sao Paulo and Regent listed.
The Rhode Island is a Nova Class Refit/Variant, but still a Nova Class.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Rhode_Island
The other ones are just because Thomas the Cat took them from Memory-Beta, not from the existing ships from STO.
https://twitter.com/Cryptic_TtC/status/446357097324609536
Funny part I always realized is during First Combat clip how much larger the sovy is compared to the defiant. Scaling has always been an issue here in sto lol.
While I appreciate the visuals artistically and realistically, I can't help but feel there's actually less "fun stuff" going on in the ESD space map than there used to be.
I know it's more accurate to how Earth orbit would be as opposed to the old ESD space map, but I tend to enjoy swooping around the planets in STO than never ever reaching them. It's the kind of thing I enjoyed doing in older Trek games, even if the planet sizes weren't very realistic. As long as they *look* big enough to keep my sense of disbelief going, it never bothered me if they were smaller than they should be.
Who *doesn't* like skipping over the atmosphere when they're idling? =P
That aside, I do like the more accurate representation of Earth's starry surroundings.
I think if you had a few groupings of various types of drydocks about, even the older ones (for the smaller ships?), all in groupings to themselves to represent the San Francisco yards (presuming they could be known as such), resized enough perhaps to fit certain types of ships, that would be handy for those of us who want to use them for idling/screenshotting/space RP(?).
This way, the Nemesis drydocks would still retain their position (and be "seen" outside the window from the interior) but then there'd be a few groupings around the spacedock area of the other drydock types.
Also, if a way to allow certain sizes and types of ships (Starfleet vessels at least) to fit in various-sized drydocks is worked out, one thing I'd personally appreciate is allowing the camera to clip in and out of the drydock models without getting bumped around.
Another thing I was kind of thinking about that might be too much work for the time being would be to have a "seating" position for ships to use the drydocks like how characters can use certain chairs. Might even be kind of cool to have them utilize a ship repair option, but that's a lot of extra stuff that's taking it a bit further... >_>
I'm also a little disappointed we don't get a bit more of the interior shuttlebay to explore without the annoying invisible walls. I understand not having players running around the whole length of it, but would have been neat to have at least one section of the landing area available, possibly with functionality in the future.
I also feel some of the invisible walls are a little too "thick," at least the ones around the decorative angled glass panes around the shipyard area that extend out a bit too far. Try running around them and you'll see.
With all that being said, I love the new interior so much, it's gorgeous and much more representative of ESD than the old, impossibly-fitting interior.
Sovvy isn't supposed to have square lifeboat hatches, Taco :P
Thats more to do how the game's texturing works.
In 'normal' operations of a space station you would regularly have people arriving and departing from both the transporter & the shuttle bays (as well as docked ships). Since we can now use these two to at least depart from. That would make the somewhat empty platform in the shuttle bay a sort of boarding area for shuttles.
So why not add a console there (like the one in the transporter) and a guy positioned behind it whom would act as sort of a gate-agent. When you shuttle down from there he'd be the one in the interact ui. You could give him some basic lines to say occasionally like:
"Shuttle 86 to Starfleet Academy is now boarding from Gate C."
"U.S.S. Danube will be departing to Deep Space 9 in 20 mins."
"The S.S. Gimmelwald will be arriving from Regulus VI shortly. People are reminded that cargo will be unloaded after all passengers have disembarked."
peter
I concur with these thoughts. Adding the Fleet yard type for the larger player ships is good. But keep some of the other Drydock model types from the previous Sol system maps.
The 'seating mechanic' being later adapted for Drydock docking is a brilliant idea. :cool: