So, if i had 99 in weapons training, and got it boosted to 125, I would only get something like maybe an extra 25 damage at most. While, if i had 50 weapons training, and got the boost from the kits, then I would have 76 weapons training, which could boost my damage by 50 or more. (these are rough numbers). The Point is: It is much less beneficial to add points to a skill that is already at 99 and making it like 125, than it is to add points to skills that are at say 40, and boosting them to 66.This is the definition of Diminishing Returns.
I'm sorry, but this whole statement is incorrect, despite the fancy formatting.
The benefit that any particular ability or item gains from the skill system is linear in every instance I can manage to remember at the moment. There may be exceptions that I can't think of off the top of my head, but they are likely quite rare.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I'm sorry, but this whole statement is incorrect, despite the fancy formatting.
The benefit that any particular ability or item gains from the skill system is linear in every instance I can manage to remember at the moment. There may be exceptions that I can't think of off the top of my head, but they are likely quite rare.
Isn't equipment the only thing that suffers from diminishing returns?
As usual, like on any forum, almost no one reads the entire post or looks at specific and important details of the post, lol. I clearly stated that these skills, which can get boosted over 99, beyond the skill tree, like any other skill in the game, suffer from Diminishing Returns.
So, if i had 99 in weapons training, and got it boosted to 125, I would only get something like maybe an extra 25 damage at most. While, if i had 50 weapons training, and got the boost from the kits, then I would have 76 weapons training, which could boost my damage by 50 or more. (these are rough numbers). The Point is: It is much less beneficial to add points to a skill that is already at 99 and making it like 125, than it is to add points to skills that are at say 40, and boosting them to 66.This is the definition of Diminishing Returns.
Thus, from my perspective, having the current skill bonuses granted by the kits is quite useless compared to if they gave me bonuses to skills that are not maxed or already at a high level (ie: 70-99 is an example of a skill being of high level). THAT is why it would make sense to me in this case, if these bonuses do not change, to buy a captain retrain token, and get the most out of the skill bonuses of the kits. But, to avoid losing that 500 zen, that is why I proposed customizable skill bonuses for kits. That way, everyone wins.
Thanks.
Already had a dev respond to this, but maybe some clarification:
I think you're confusing skill levels with skill values. It's less valuable to you to bump a skill from level 6 to level 7 than it is to go from level 1 to level 2 because it costs the same amount of skill points to do so but the skill value increase is lower as you get more levels.
On the other hand, skill VALUE is a linear increase of your abilities. Increasing your skill value from 99 to 125 would provide the same numerical amount of increase as going from 40 to 66. The percentage increase would be lower, but that's how it works when you go from smaller numbers to larger numbers. Going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase but going from 100 to 101 is only a 1% increase despite having the same total increase of effect.
Isn't equipment the only thing that suffers from diminishing returns?
It depends on the equipment. Tactical consoles on ships always provide the same amount of damage increase on your weapons if the consoles are identical, regardless of the number of consoles equipped. Armor consoles technically don't get a diminishing return on themselves either, they always add the same amount of resistance value if the consoles are identical, the diminishing return is applied on your resistance value itself.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
I'm sorry, but this whole statement is incorrect, despite the fancy formatting.
The benefit that any particular ability or item gains from the skill system is linear in every instance I can manage to remember at the moment. There may be exceptions that I can't think of off the top of my head, but they are likely quite rare.
Very brave of you to stick your neck into that one. The definition of 'diminishing returns' is..a matter of some debate to begin with.
But yes most things do give linear returns except armor thanks to the needless complex manner resist rating translates into actual reduction. A method not used in any other game I know of and not required to prevent true immunity either. Resist / (x + Resist) is pretty industry standard now days.
Not sure if the other 'resist' type skills are the same but I don't think so.
As usual, like on any forum, almost no one reads the entire post or looks at specific and important details of the post, lol. I clearly stated that these skills, which can get boosted over 99, beyond the skill tree, like any other skill in the game, suffer from Diminishing Returns.
So, if i had 99 in weapons training, and got it boosted to 125, I would only get something like maybe an extra 25 damage at most. While, if i had 50 weapons training, and got the boost from the kits, then I would have 76 weapons training, which could boost my damage by 50 or more. (these are rough numbers). The Point is: It is much less beneficial to add points to a skill that is already at 99 and making it like 125, than it is to add points to skills that are at say 40, and boosting them to 66.This is the definition of Diminishing Returns.
Thus, from my perspective, having the current skill bonuses granted by the kits is quite useless compared to if they gave me bonuses to skills that are not maxed or already at a high level (ie: 70-99 is an example of a skill being of high level). THAT is why it would make sense to me in this case, if these bonuses do not change, to buy a captain retrain token, and get the most out of the skill bonuses of the kits. But, to avoid losing that 500 zen, that is why I proposed customizable skill bonuses for kits. That way, everyone wins.
Thanks.
Your perspective is giving you a false perception of the gains you really get. Shift your perspective to the gains over the base values and you will see no diminishing returns at all.
Has anyone had a chance to look at the Kit trade ins? Last I checked the tool tips only mention us being able to get one module rather than the five they said they were changing it to.
Are the kits and kit modules in the EC vendors and dilithium store final? I am still seeing the following:
1. The EC vendors have kits, but no kit modules.
2. The dilithium store has kit modules, but no kits.
3. The kit modules in the dilithium store only go up to Mk IX uncommon. This seems inconsistent with the quality of the other equipment available from the dilithium store.
I'm sorry, but this whole statement is incorrect, despite the fancy formatting.
The benefit that any particular ability or item gains from the skill system is linear in every instance I can manage to remember at the moment. There may be exceptions that I can't think of off the top of my head, but they are likely quite rare.
Really? Huh. But hold on, I have seen space skills suffer diminishing returns, like the skills that boost crew healing- I'm almost certain that they suffer from diminishing returns; my fleet mates talk about it all the time.
I guess I must have just assumed that all skill values suffer from diminishing returns, which is not that bad of an assumption to make, considering cryptic's other game, Champions online, is basically crawling with them. But, no, this is a completely different game... it was wrong of me to assume this. I am sorry for creating this misconception. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge of how the game truly works. I thought I knew everything there is to know about skills, until now... lesson learned; misconception- corrected and duly noted.
Also, I would like to say that: I learned long ago, that what defines a decent person, is not whether they are nice or smart, but if they are willing to admit that they are wrong, when and if they are wrong, and to thank the person/ people who is correcting them.
So, having said that- Thank you for responding sir; I respect your willingness to look through posts, and take action, correcting these type of misconceptions when necessary. And also, thank you to everyone else who corrected me. Again, sorry for the misconception.
Finally though, I wanted to ask: since we are on the topic of bonuses provided by kits, is there a chance that we'll see kits that perhaps add other bonuses, not just bonuses to skill values? Ie: bonus to melee damage, extra hit points, etc?
Very brave of you to stick your neck into that one. The definition of 'diminishing returns' is..a matter of some debate to begin with.
But yes most things do give linear returns except armor thanks to the needless complex manner resist rating translates into actual reduction. A method not used in any other game I know of and not required to prevent true immunity either. Resist / (x + Resist) is pretty industry standard now days.
Not sure if the other 'resist' type skills are the same but I don't think so.
There is no "debate". Diminishing returns is defined on an incremental/marginal basis (1, 2, 3, 4).
The way it's incorrectly defined (it's incorrectly defined as a percentage increase of the output) would result in an exponentially increasing output, let me show you with an example.
Suppose we start with X = Y.
We have 5 slots, and each thing adds +100%. One Things, 2X = 2Y
Two Things, 3X = 4Y
Three Things, 4X = 8Y
Four Things, 5X = 16Y
Five Things, 6X = 32Y
If this were your DHC output, and your damage started at 1000 Damage per pulse, you'd end up with 32,000 Damage per pulse, which is clearly not what should be happening.
There is no "debate". Diminishing returns is defined on an incremental/marginal basis (1, 2, 3, 4).
The way it's incorrectly defined (it's incorrectly defined as a percentage increase of the output) would result in an exponentially increasing output, let me show you with an example.
Suppose we start with X = Y.
We have 5 slots, and each thing adds +100%. One Things, 2X = 2Y
Two Things, 3X = 4Y
Three Things, 4X = 8Y
Four Things, 5X = 16Y
Five Things, 6X = 32Y
If this were your DHC output, and your damage started at 1000 Damage per pulse, you'd end up with 32,000 Damage per pulse, which is clearly not what should be happening.
I think a better example would be:
X gets bonuses of +20%, +25%, and +30%, what is the total? Well, the question is whether they are additive or cumulative..... STO doesn't do Cumulative, it does additive(which results in less nutso things)
X[100] + (X*.20) + (X*.25) + (X*.30) = 175 Which is drastically differentent than if you did it the other way.
It depends on the equipment. Tactical consoles on ships always provide the same amount of damage increase on your weapons if the consoles are identical, regardless of the number of consoles equipped. Armor consoles technically don't get a diminishing return on themselves either, they always add the same amount of resistance value if the consoles are identical, the diminishing return is applied on your resistance value itself.
So that's why RCS accelerators don't do their job very well.
So that's why RCS accelerators don't do their job very well.
RCS accelerators work pretty much like tac consoles. They add a percentage of the base turn rate. If you are seeing a small increase per console, then it probably means that your base turn rate was low to begin with.
Yes it does, but as Borticus has pointed out once before, STO does both. MOST bonuses will apply to the base value, and comparatively few bonuses will act as a multiplier to the total value. This is to prevent exploding numbers as I pointed out with my example.
After losing track in the sheer amount of posts, I decided to just write down my thoughts...
After checking the Fleet Kits (Embassy & Spire), the engineer in me was quite disappointed.
While the other carreers' kits had several different frames, all three available engineer kits came with only 2 different frame builds. All of them with 4 slots of one subprofession and one "universal" slot.
"I came from a time long gone, saw many other times...
But I'm still a mere human."
Vice Admiral Chris Curtiss, Temporal Ambassador
RCS accelerators work pretty much like tac consoles. They add a percentage of the base turn rate. If you are seeing a small increase per console, then it probably means that your base turn rate was low to begin with.
It was changed a long time ago to make RCS consoles work better for ships with lower base turn rates then higher.
But to be honest it sucks. Put a second Enhanced RCS console on a ship from your fleet dil mine on a slow turning ship and you get less than 1 turn rate increase.
But to be honest it sucks. Put a second Enhanced RCS console on a ship from your fleet dil mine on a slow turning ship and you get less than 1 turn rate increase.
This is false; The Fleet RCS Consoles give a 42.5% increase. Even on the slowest of slow at 5 turn rate, that's +2.125 Turn Rate.
That's only a 0.4 increase between a rare Mk XI and a fleet Mk XII. Does that make sense?
Turn rate without any RCS consoles is 8.6 and that ship has a base of 5.5. So my only guess is my skills contribute to the increase, which bumps up the base turn rate so the consoles don't work as well as they would if the turn rate was actually the base.
Yes it does, but as Borticus has pointed out once before, STO does both. MOST bonuses will apply to the base value, and comparatively few bonuses will act as a multiplier to the total value. This is to prevent exploding numbers as I pointed out with my example.
Well... yes, it does have some things that modify the final value instead of base. But I think that if you had multiples of those they'd use additive stacking instead of cumulative.
Anyways, the definition of cumulative stacking that I'm using requires something to be able to modify the output of a copy of itself. IE Bonus A is +10%, and having two of it gives you a total of +21%, instead of +20%.
I don't know of anything in STO that does that. There are a few bonuses that modify other bonuses in a similar manner, but not themselves.
It's interesting to see how the feedback thread for the kit revamp has turned into a general discussion about ship consoles...
:mad:BACK TO TOPIC, PLEASE!:mad:
Agreed, this thread is becoming hugely irrelevant.
I will ask again in case anyone has the capability to check;
Has anyone had a chance to look at the Kit trade ins? Last I checked the tool tips only mention us being able to get one module rather than the five they said they were changing it to.
That's only a 0.4 increase between a rare Mk XI and a fleet Mk XII. Does that make sense?
Turn rate without any RCS consoles is 8.6 and that ship has a base of 5.5. So my only guess is my skills contribute to the increase, which bumps up the base turn rate so the consoles don't work as well as they would if the turn rate was actually the base.
I think a better example would be:
X gets bonuses of +20%, +25%, and +30%, what is the total? Well, the question is whether they are additive or cumulative..... STO doesn't do Cumulative, it does additive(which results in less nutso things)
X[100] + (X*.20) + (X*.25) + (X*.30) = 175 Which is drastically differentent than if you did it the other way.
Well... yes, it does have some things that modify the final value instead of base. But I think that if you had multiples of those they'd use additive stacking instead of cumulative.
Anyways, the definition of cumulative stacking that I'm using requires something to be able to modify the output of a copy of itself. IE Bonus A is +10%, and having two of it gives you a total of +21%, instead of +20%.
I don't know of anything in STO that does that. There are a few bonuses that modify other bonuses in a similar manner, but not themselves.
The usual term for what you call "cumulative stacking" is "multiplicative stacking". Shield resistances stack multiplicatively.
Well... yes, it does have some things that modify the final value instead of base. But I think that if you had multiples of those they'd use additive stacking instead of cumulative.
You think wrong. Attack Pattern Alpha and Go Down Fighting both affect the final value, and they stack multiplicatively.
Ah, I see. Is there anything else(aside from Toaster's example)?
Perhaps more importantly... anything on ground?
I'm not sure about ground, but for space, damage modifiers stack multiplicatively across categories. You can separate damage modifiers for space into multiple categories. Stacking is additive within each category and multiplicative across categories. Most people separate modifiers into "base modifiers" and "final modifiers". Borticus has indicated in this post that Cryptic calls "base modifiers" "strength" and "final modifiers" "bonus". But that's really a simplification, because there are more than two categories. In the last thread on this topic, people counted up to 5 categories. It's not easy to tell which category a modifier belongs to. Here's a long list by virusdancer, but even that list is not complete.
I'm popping in to provide an update, and to answer a few concerns.
Fleet Kit Trade-In
Our goal is for the Kits + Modules that players will obtain via this Trade-In to exactly match what they currently have, in terms of powers and slotting options. This will probably mean that they all turn into 4/1 Kits, and that they will be pre-loaded with all of the existing powers you currently have.
I'm not sure about ground, but for space, damage modifiers stack multiplicatively across categories. You can separate damage modifiers for space into multiple categories. Stacking is additive within each category and multiplicative across categories. Most people separate modifiers into "base modifiers" and "final modifiers". Borticus has indicated in this post that Cryptic calls "base modifiers" "strength" and "final modifiers" "bonus". But that's really a simplification, because there are more than two categories. In the last thread on this topic, people counted up to 5 categories. It's not easy to tell which category a modifier belongs to. Here's a long list by virusdancer, but even that list is not complete.
I suppose one place to start for ground are the Tactical captain powers.
Then there's the science biochemist debuff thing. I think it stacks additively with other things that reduce resists, but I'm not sure. I don't normally test things like this.
I suppose one place to start for ground are the Tactical captain powers.
Then there's the science biochemist debuff thing. I think it stacks additively with other things that reduce resists, but I'm not sure. I don't normally test things like this.
Maybe, we should move this discussion to this thread on diminishing returns started by tk79 in "Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics". If you want to discuss ground specifically, I suggest that you start a new thread so that people who know more about ground can answer your questions. For space, damage resistance debuffs are not completely understood (by the players). I suspect the same is true for ground.
Maybe, we should move this discussion to this thread on diminishing returns started by tk79 in "Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics". If you want to discuss ground specifically, I suggest that you start a new thread so that people who know more about ground can answer your questions. For space, damage resistance debuffs are not completely understood (by the players). I suspect the same is true for ground.
True... the original purpose behind bringing it up was the way kit powers will have new combinations soon. I'm not expecting it to result in anything OP, but we'll see.
Comments
I'm sorry, but this whole statement is incorrect, despite the fancy formatting.
The benefit that any particular ability or item gains from the skill system is linear in every instance I can manage to remember at the moment. There may be exceptions that I can't think of off the top of my head, but they are likely quite rare.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Isn't equipment the only thing that suffers from diminishing returns?
Already had a dev respond to this, but maybe some clarification:
I think you're confusing skill levels with skill values. It's less valuable to you to bump a skill from level 6 to level 7 than it is to go from level 1 to level 2 because it costs the same amount of skill points to do so but the skill value increase is lower as you get more levels.
On the other hand, skill VALUE is a linear increase of your abilities. Increasing your skill value from 99 to 125 would provide the same numerical amount of increase as going from 40 to 66. The percentage increase would be lower, but that's how it works when you go from smaller numbers to larger numbers. Going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase but going from 100 to 101 is only a 1% increase despite having the same total increase of effect.
It depends on the equipment. Tactical consoles on ships always provide the same amount of damage increase on your weapons if the consoles are identical, regardless of the number of consoles equipped. Armor consoles technically don't get a diminishing return on themselves either, they always add the same amount of resistance value if the consoles are identical, the diminishing return is applied on your resistance value itself.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Very brave of you to stick your neck into that one. The definition of 'diminishing returns' is..a matter of some debate to begin with.
But yes most things do give linear returns except armor thanks to the needless complex manner resist rating translates into actual reduction. A method not used in any other game I know of and not required to prevent true immunity either. Resist / (x + Resist) is pretty industry standard now days.
Not sure if the other 'resist' type skills are the same but I don't think so.
Your perspective is giving you a false perception of the gains you really get. Shift your perspective to the gains over the base values and you will see no diminishing returns at all.
STO Screenshot Archive
1. The EC vendors have kits, but no kit modules.
2. The dilithium store has kit modules, but no kits.
3. The kit modules in the dilithium store only go up to Mk IX uncommon. This seems inconsistent with the quality of the other equipment available from the dilithium store.
Really? Huh. But hold on, I have seen space skills suffer diminishing returns, like the skills that boost crew healing- I'm almost certain that they suffer from diminishing returns; my fleet mates talk about it all the time.
I guess I must have just assumed that all skill values suffer from diminishing returns, which is not that bad of an assumption to make, considering cryptic's other game, Champions online, is basically crawling with them. But, no, this is a completely different game... it was wrong of me to assume this. I am sorry for creating this misconception. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge of how the game truly works. I thought I knew everything there is to know about skills, until now... lesson learned; misconception- corrected and duly noted.
Also, I would like to say that: I learned long ago, that what defines a decent person, is not whether they are nice or smart, but if they are willing to admit that they are wrong, when and if they are wrong, and to thank the person/ people who is correcting them.
So, having said that- Thank you for responding sir; I respect your willingness to look through posts, and take action, correcting these type of misconceptions when necessary. And also, thank you to everyone else who corrected me. Again, sorry for the misconception.
Finally though, I wanted to ask: since we are on the topic of bonuses provided by kits, is there a chance that we'll see kits that perhaps add other bonuses, not just bonuses to skill values? Ie: bonus to melee damage, extra hit points, etc?
The way it's incorrectly defined (it's incorrectly defined as a percentage increase of the output) would result in an exponentially increasing output, let me show you with an example.
Suppose we start with X = Y.
We have 5 slots, and each thing adds +100%.
One Things, 2X = 2Y
Two Things, 3X = 4Y
Three Things, 4X = 8Y
Four Things, 5X = 16Y
Five Things, 6X = 32Y
If this were your DHC output, and your damage started at 1000 Damage per pulse, you'd end up with 32,000 Damage per pulse, which is clearly not what should be happening.
X gets bonuses of +20%, +25%, and +30%, what is the total? Well, the question is whether they are additive or cumulative..... STO doesn't do Cumulative, it does additive(which results in less nutso things)
X[100] + (X*.20) + (X*.25) + (X*.30) = 175 Which is drastically differentent than if you did it the other way.
My character Tsin'xing
So that's why RCS accelerators don't do their job very well.
RCS accelerators work pretty much like tac consoles. They add a percentage of the base turn rate. If you are seeing a small increase per console, then it probably means that your base turn rate was low to begin with.
After checking the Fleet Kits (Embassy & Spire), the engineer in me was quite disappointed.
While the other carreers' kits had several different frames, all three available engineer kits came with only 2 different frame builds. All of them with 4 slots of one subprofession and one "universal" slot.
But I'm still a mere human."
Vice Admiral Chris Curtiss, Temporal Ambassador
It was changed a long time ago to make RCS consoles work better for ships with lower base turn rates then higher.
But to be honest it sucks. Put a second Enhanced RCS console on a ship from your fleet dil mine on a slow turning ship and you get less than 1 turn rate increase.
Sorry, I remember now. It was the difference between a blue quality Mk XI RCS console and a MK XII fleet RCS console is less than a +1 turn rate.
You are right. 1 fleet enhanced RCS console Mk XII gives me a turn rate of 10.9. 2 consoles bumps it to 13.3.
However
A single rare RCS Accelerator Console Mk XI gives me a turn rate of 10.5 http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c355/MonkeyGuts69/screenshot_2014-04-09-21-34-54_zpsffc312d1.jpg~original
A single ultra rare Enhanced RCS Mk XII fleet console gives me a turn rate of 10.9 http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c355/MonkeyGuts69/screenshot_2014-04-09-21-35-06_zps795cd0b8.jpg~original
That's only a 0.4 increase between a rare Mk XI and a fleet Mk XII. Does that make sense?
Turn rate without any RCS consoles is 8.6 and that ship has a base of 5.5. So my only guess is my skills contribute to the increase, which bumps up the base turn rate so the consoles don't work as well as they would if the turn rate was actually the base.
:mad:BACK TO TOPIC, PLEASE!:mad:
But I'm still a mere human."
Vice Admiral Chris Curtiss, Temporal Ambassador
Anyways, the definition of cumulative stacking that I'm using requires something to be able to modify the output of a copy of itself. IE Bonus A is +10%, and having two of it gives you a total of +21%, instead of +20%.
I don't know of anything in STO that does that. There are a few bonuses that modify other bonuses in a similar manner, but not themselves.
My character Tsin'xing
Agreed, this thread is becoming hugely irrelevant.
I will ask again in case anyone has the capability to check;
Has anyone had a chance to look at the Kit trade ins? Last I checked the tool tips only mention us being able to get one module rather than the five they said they were changing it to.
Back to topic please.
8.6 + 0.35*5.5 = 10.525
8.6 + 0.425*5.5 = 10.9375
8.6 + 2*0.425*5.5 = 13.275
The usual term for what you call "cumulative stacking" is "multiplicative stacking". Shield resistances stack multiplicatively.
Perhaps more importantly... anything on ground?
My character Tsin'xing
I'm not sure about ground, but for space, damage modifiers stack multiplicatively across categories. You can separate damage modifiers for space into multiple categories. Stacking is additive within each category and multiplicative across categories. Most people separate modifiers into "base modifiers" and "final modifiers". Borticus has indicated in this post that Cryptic calls "base modifiers" "strength" and "final modifiers" "bonus". But that's really a simplification, because there are more than two categories. In the last thread on this topic, people counted up to 5 categories. It's not easy to tell which category a modifier belongs to. Here's a long list by virusdancer, but even that list is not complete.
and these are not fleet kits... the one I found was science 3/2 frame
the MK XI purple modules are also nice.
about stun grenade could it have a chance to expose added?
The changes to Episode kit box rewards I would like to say thank you.
the one thing I'm not sure of is maximum kit quality for loot drop and non episode reward drops For STFs and other content that has gear rewards.
The kit trade in is still saying only one module!
Then there's the science biochemist debuff thing. I think it stacks additively with other things that reduce resists, but I'm not sure. I don't normally test things like this.
My character Tsin'xing
Maybe, we should move this discussion to this thread on diminishing returns started by tk79 in "Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics". If you want to discuss ground specifically, I suggest that you start a new thread so that people who know more about ground can answer your questions. For space, damage resistance debuffs are not completely understood (by the players). I suspect the same is true for ground.
My character Tsin'xing