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Official feedback thread for the Kit Revamp

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    draogndraogn Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'm going to miss seeing my kits visuals. I enjoyed enabling them while I was doing ground missions and disabling the visuals while at ESD or DS9. Since all of my tailor slots are used and I'm not buying more just for kits. Looks like I am stuck to my regular admirals jacket.
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    qrtrmstrqrtrmstr Member Posts: 139 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    trelane87 wrote: »
    I've been playing for quite a while and really have never had a reason to ever post in the forums, but I happened to look at these new Spire Kits on tribble last night and I am appalled. I manly play a sci toon and I do ground a lot with my role being a medic/tank, and these new kits will completely change the way I play. I do not see any reason why we need to be forced into using powers that we do not want to have, besides Tachyon Harmonic there are no useful "Science" powers, I wouldn't imagine ever seeing Dr. McCoy shooting fire at people. With this system the VR Medic X kit and the Spire XII Medic Kit become obsolete and unbuildable along with many others in other professions, and the choices of Spire trade in kits only being 3/2 means you can either be a mediocre science officer or a mediocre medical officer.



    You say in the quote above that you don't want people to be thrown into the corner, but with these kits you're just throwing everyone into the center... there should be an option for kits that are either ALL science or ALL medical, we should have the option to dig into a corner if we so choose.

    Edit: List of VR MK X kits that currently as of 3/20/14 on Tribble can NOT be made

    Tactical:
    Close Combat Specialist
    Grenade Satchel

    Engineering:
    Bunker Fabrication
    Enemy Neutralization
    Equipment Technician
    Fabrication Specialist

    Science:
    Medic
    Physician
    Physicist

    It looks like engineers should be more unhappy about these restrictions than us science toons, these are some of the most popular kits!

    I agree with this statement...Sci's are being overlooked or intentionally screwed by the devs.
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    qrtrmstrqrtrmstr Member Posts: 139 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    trelane87 wrote: »
    Yes I agree with you, wasn't trying to disprove your point or anything :P

    But seriously this is the way it stands now regarding fleet kits

    1) any tactical officer that has purchased a fleet kit can trade their kit in for a frame that can replicate the one they paid for that has very good skill boosts and is "better"

    2) Engineering officers on the other hand can trade in their kits and get a frame that is completely different than what they paid for. 4/1 frames supposedly exist but that person will have to grind for it and likely won't get one that has the same skill boosts that the fleet kits have

    3) Science officers can NOT trade their fleet kits in for a frame that can replicate their kits that they PAID for... hence they will be unable to enjoy the bonuses that the other professions can get by opting into this new system

    Looking at that I don't think it's fair that the other departments can enjoy the skill boosts and new systems while science characters have to settle for what is given to us, give us more options! The devs made these fleet Medic and Physicist kits not too long ago so then they were "interesting" and now they're just being forgotten about...

    Please give us 4/1 and 5/0 fleet kits!

    Or you can make everyone happy and have kits be just a frame and you can put modules in that are in accordance with your chosen profession :D

    trelane87 clearly did hishomework and knows what he's talking about here....its apparent and undisputable that Sci toons are being screwed on this "revamping of kits"
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    commodoreobviouscommodoreobvious Member Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    In fairness, you can just keep your old kit. It's annoying not to be able to muck about with the powers on it, but if you really want that set of powers you won't lose them either.
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    tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,800 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I dispute the above statement.

    The first thing I noticed when logging onto Tribble was that one of my kit powers was just gone.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
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    bignutterbignutter Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    In fairness, you can just keep your old kit. It's annoying not to be able to muck about with the powers on it, but if you really want that set of powers you won't lose them either.

    The issue is that any new character can't make a Matching kit after the new update, and the Mk12 kits are bound to character.
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    wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Three things that I hope to see from the revamp are:

    1) Keep the new kit/armor costume as a visual, not a costume: I love that we're finally getting to see this as an editable costume set, but would it be possible to keep it as a visual to enable or disable? This way we could still design our own kit/armor to wear over our regular uniforms, rather than making it it's own costume.

    2) More parts: Since this is going to finally allow KDF to use kit visuals and armor, maybe there could finally be some KDF or Romulan Armor visuals? This would be a great addition to the Rep as well, where hitting T5 could unlock kit and armor costume parts based on that rep. I know some of the LTS people would love more borg visuals as well, so this would be a great addition to that as well.

    3) Less Tailor tabs: I like the Maco, Omega, and Voth armor sets, but do they really need to be their own categories? With this new revamp, couldn't we get them all added into one category? Admittedly, the Maco undersuit is nice, but I would much rather have one of the plated muscle armors underneath. The Omega chest piece would be awesome with the kit parts. Another great aspect of this would be adding the EV suits as parts. I know I have been saying from the start that we should be able to use the MACO set as an ev suit. Throwing them all in would allow people to make their own, which would be really nice. The suit equipped would still dictate the stats and have their normal visual when active, but activating armor visuals would override that.
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    immaculateflaxenimmaculateflaxen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    trelane87 wrote: »
    I've been playing for quite a while and really have never had a reason to ever post in the forums, but I happened to look at these new Spire Kits on tribble last night and I am appalled. I manly play a sci toon and I do ground a lot with my role being a medic/tank, and these new kits will completely change the way I play. I do not see any reason why we need to be forced into using powers that we do not want to have, besides Tachyon Harmonic there are no useful "Science" powers, I wouldn't imagine ever seeing Dr. McCoy shooting fire at people. With this system the VR Medic X kit and the Spire XII Medic Kit become obsolete and unbuildable along with many others in other professions, and the choices of Spire trade in kits only being 3/2 means you can either be a mediocre science officer or a mediocre medical officer.



    You say in the quote above that you don't want people to be thrown into the corner, but with these kits you're just throwing everyone into the center... there should be an option for kits that are either ALL science or ALL medical, we should have the option to dig into a corner if we so choose.

    Edit: List of VR MK X kits that currently as of 3/20/14 on Tribble can NOT be made

    Tactical:
    Close Combat Specialist
    Grenade Satchel

    Engineering:
    Bunker Fabrication
    Enemy Neutralization
    Equipment Technician
    Fabrication Specialist

    Science:
    Medic
    Physician
    Physicist

    It looks like engineers should be more unhappy about these restrictions than us science toons, these are some of the most popular kits!

    I couldn't have said it better myself! I have a medic kit because I like being a medic I don't wanna be part medic and part something else... To me this reduces the effectiveness of a science player not to mention it'll basically force a player to make changes to their ground skill tree to compensate for non-medic abilities.
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    alienfrombeyondalienfrombeyond Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Combat armor affects all armor modifiers. It isn't limited to damage resistance rating. It is a lot more useful than you might think.
    I had no idea this was true, the skill description only mentions the resistance part.
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    mightybobcncmightybobcnc Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    tilarta wrote: »
    I dispute the above statement.

    The first thing I noticed when logging onto Tribble was that one of my kit powers was just gone.

    If it's Lunge then it's a bug..

    Joined January 2009
    Finger wrote:
    Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
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    tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,800 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Yes, it was Lunge.

    I've never heard mention of this bug.
    Can you please provide an official source to verify the statement?

    I just assumed Cryptic were reprogramming the MkX kit abilities to be more in line with the new Kit mechanic.
    And that's why one ability was lost.

    Also, if I could just craft a standard MkX Tactical Kit or Science Medical Kit and keep using it, what incentive would I have to make a new kit?

    That's another reason I thought it changed, to motivate me to use the new mechanic to get the missing ability back.

    Not that it worked, the slot layout didn't allow me to equip a grenade power, so it failed anyway.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
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    mightybobcncmightybobcnc Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    bug thread

    Dev

    Patch notes
    Lunge and Pounce powers are now working correctly once again.

    Joined January 2009
    Finger wrote:
    Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
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    foorgedfoorged Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I couldn't have said it better myself! I have a medic kit because I like being a medic I don't wanna be part medic and part something else... To me this reduces the effectiveness of a science player not to mention it'll basically force a player to make changes to their ground skill tree to compensate for non-medic abilities.

    And that is something I realy don't like. I vote no to that!!
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    borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2014
    I'm popping in to provide an update, and to answer a few concerns.


    Fleet Kit Trade-In

    Our goal is for the Kits + Modules that players will obtain via this Trade-In to exactly match what they currently have, in terms of powers and slotting options. This will probably mean that they all turn into 4/1 Kits, and that they will be pre-loaded with all of the existing powers you currently have.

    We will also be changing one of the Skill Bonuses on each Fleet Kit, to synergize with whatever Tier IV power it comes pre-slotted with. (Example, the Flamethrower Turret will come with +Turrets/Drones skill) We haven't decided yet which existing passive will be removed to accommodate this change.

    What this will mean is that when you trade your kit in, all you do is gain, in the form of passive Skill Boosts that have been added to the Kit Frames.

    There are exceptions to this: There is at least one Fleet Kit that is, under the new Module Slotting rules, technically a 5/0. We're still not 100% how to address this, but it seems likely that this is the one Kit that will change -- one of its current abilities will likely be replaced with an alternate Module when traded in.

    The alternative solution is allowing a Kit which clearly violates the design we intended.

    Neither are ideal solutions, and so we are still in the process of deciding which route to take.


    Module Prices

    Some concerns have been raised over the Dilithium/EC cost of Modules under the new system. All I can tell you on that front is that they are still in flux. I believe our goal is for a new Frame+4Modules to be approximately equal to the old cost of a Kit. Though I don't know offhand how that cost is intended to be divided up.


    I Can't Rebuild My Existing Kit

    Unless I'm mistaken, the only existing Kits in the game that have 5 abilities, are the Fleet Kits. These will remain available in their current Module selections, and existing ones can be traded in.

    I've done a bunch of digging through our item database looking for other 5-ability kits, but haven't found any. With a database of millions of items though, I could've easily overlooked something. If anybody knows of another 5-ability Kit, please tell me its name.

    As far as I can see, all existing Mk X and XI Kits have only 4 abilities. And even if those are all now considered "Medic" or "Fabrication" modules under the new system, there's nothing stopping you from rebuilding them, as 4/1 Kits will exist at Mk XI and Mk XII. I will admit that this may mean you will have to find suitable upgrades in order to rebuild your existing ability load-out, but the need to upgrade your equipment is a central philosophy of MMO gaming, and not one that we intend to design away from.

    In other words - Yes, you can totally rebuild your existing Kits. It may require some time investment, but it should be within the new system's capabilities to provide you with the means.


    Keep Kit Visuals a Toggle On/Off

    I'm afraid that ship has already sailed, and the costume changes are final at this point.

    Now... I make absolutely ZERO promises on this front, but I will investigate if there's a chance for an additional Costume Slot being added to characters for free, to allow for the updated customization without asking players to remove/remake any of their existing costumes.


    ...

    That's about it for right now. Thanks for all of your valuable feedback. We're really anxious to see this system go live with minimal friction, and airing your concerns has been extremely helpful in that regard. Thanks for (for the most part) keeping it civil while doing so.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
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    mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Keep Kit Visuals a Toggle On/Off

    I'm afraid that ship has already sailed, and the costume changes are final at this point.

    Now... I make absolutely ZERO promises on this front, but I will investigate if there's a chance for an additional Costume Slot being added to characters for free, to allow for the updated customization without asking players to remove/remake any of their existing costumes.
    I like having the kit visuals as costume bits, but can we keep the visual toggles for Boffs, or at least allow them to use the MACO/KHG/Omega/Dyson armor costume unlocks? I think that's the main concern for players at the moment, the ability to toggle on the better-looking armor from the sets for their entire away team, such as when they go to the Battlezone (and see entire NPC fire teams in such armor, as well...).
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    trelane87trelane87 Member Posts: 242 Arc User
    edited March 2014

    I Can't Rebuild My Existing Kit

    Unless I'm mistaken, the only existing Kits in the game that have 5 abilities, are the Fleet Kits. These will remain available in their current Module selections, and existing ones can be traded in.

    I've done a bunch of digging through our item database looking for other 5-ability kits, but haven't found any. With a database of millions of items though, I could've easily overlooked something. If anybody knows of another 5-ability Kit, please tell me its name.

    Thanks for addressing our concerns, the Medic MK XII & Physicist MK XII can not be replicated. As others including myself have stated we like our current configurations and don't wish to be forced to change them. The only solution I see besides making them 5/0 kits is to either make the power they come with slottable in any module spot regardless of it being sci/med, or converting one of the powers. I think Biofilter Sweep could be converted into a science power quite easily... I'm not sure what you would do about the physicist kit. I really hope I can trade my kit and be part of the new system without having to change my playstyle :D
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    borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2014
    trelane87 wrote: »
    Thanks for addressing our concerns, the Medic MK XII & Physicist MK XII can not be replicated.

    Aren't these Fleet Kits? If not, where were they obtained? Fleet Kit equality is already being addressed.

    If there is another, non-Fleet Kit configuration that cannot be created under the new system, I want to hear about it.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
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    futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    That is also my main concern with the changes, using the rep set armor visuals on boffs. That's a necessary customization option, IMO, that is lost under the new system.
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    borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2014
    ... can we keep the visual toggles for Boffs, or at least allow them to use the MACO/KHG/Omega/Dyson armor costume unlocks?

    Again, absolutely not making any promises, but I'll investigate allowing Boffs access to non-standard costume pieces like those you mention.

    Boffs never could wear Kits, so adding those costume pieces to them may be outside our scope for this feature. But I'll look into the Armor.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
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    trelane87trelane87 Member Posts: 242 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Aren't these Fleet Kits? If not, where were they obtained? Fleet Kit equality is already being addressed.

    If there is another, non-Fleet Kit configuration that cannot be created under the new system, I want to hear about it.

    They are fleet kits... The two science fleet kits are the only 5/0 kits that currently exist, everything else can be made.
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    kagasenseikagasensei Member Posts: 526 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Again, absolutely not making any promises, but I'll investigate allowing Boffs access to non-standard costume pieces like those you mention.

    Boffs never could wear Kits, so adding those costume pieces to them may be outside our scope for this feature. But I'll look into the Armor.

    In the long run BOffs SHOULD wear kits. The BOff ability - player kit systems should be harmonized.
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    ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'll look into the Armor.
    What I would like to suggest is that BOFFs be given a MACO/KHG/Omega costume selector just like players have. If a player has unlocked the rep costume options, then unlock it the tailor options for crew costumes as well.

    We dont need extra slots or a different UI or anything special, just the ability to say, "this BOFF should use MACO armor" and the ability to exercise those costume edits
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    odstparker#7820 odstparker Member Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I like the new system, allowing for custom kits, but all I really care about is the fact that we now have every attachment and armor piece that was included on the old kits available to us in the Tailor, and with the ability to customize them.

    I've always liked some of the kit appearances, or some parts of them, so it's going to be really nice to have them freely available to add as I like to any uniform.
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    orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'm popping in to provide an update, and to answer a few concerns.


    Now... I make absolutely ZERO promises on this front, but I will investigate if there's a chance for an additional Costume Slot being added to characters for free, to allow for the updated customization without asking players to remove/remake any of their existing costumes.

    I'm absolutely fine with this, it opens up a whole load of customization options.
    Previously Alendiak
    Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
    Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
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    i8472i8472 Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I have questions. Are there going to be kits with 4/0 or 0/4 that are not fleet kits?


    How are the new kits and modules going to drop in game? rewards from content? purchased? crafted?

    Will purple modules and kit holder drop as rewards or are they all going to be fleet exclusives?

    Are the modules and kit module holders going to have different means of acquiring?

    example: kit holders are purchased exclusively, with modules dropping as loot/rewards?

    Why do you feel there needs to be a limit, on what can be on 1 kit holder? limiting kits to 2/2... 3/1... 1/3 or 1/4... 4/1... 3/2 ...2/3 Instead of putting whatever on?

    Will it be possible with non fleet kits to make/get
    *using the old system for quality...

    [Science Kit - Physician Mk X]
    (purple kit from the old crafting) Nanite Health Monitor III , Hypospray - Melorazine III, Vascular Regenerator III and Hypospray - Dylovene III.


    [Science Kit - Physicist Mk X] (purple kit from old crafting)

    Electro-Gravitic Field III , Sonic Pulse III , Exothermic field III, and Hyperonic Radiation III


    [Science Kit - Medic] Nanite , medical tricorder , triage , Vascuar regenerator.




    are the MK XI and Mk XII kits restricted to fleets?
    *this was asked with assumption that it's being used with current level cap of 50.

    are there universal kits and modules?

    any plans for possibly add new modules?
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    lyanaarlyanaar Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Again, absolutely not making any promises, but I'll investigate allowing Boffs access to non-standard costume pieces like those you mention.

    Boffs never could wear Kits, so adding those costume pieces to them may be outside our scope for this feature. But I'll look into the Armor.

    Hi,

    one question: What about the Photonic Science Boff? He is actually wearing kit visuals. Does he change? Atm there are no tailor options available for him.

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Starfleet_Photonic_Science_Officer_Candidate

    cheers
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    mightybobcncmightybobcnc Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Thanks for the nifty update Bort.
    There are exceptions to this: There is at least one Fleet Kit that is, under the new Module Slotting rules, technically a 5/0. We're still not 100% how to address this, but it seems likely that this is the one Kit that will change -- one of its current abilities will likely be replaced with an alternate Module when traded in.

    The alternative solution is allowing a Kit which clearly violates the design we intended.

    Neither are ideal solutions, and so we are still in the process of deciding which route to take.

    Would it be possible to have a 4/1 kit that comes pre-slotted with a 5th module that violates the kit's requirements? Then if the player unequips the module they won't be able to re-equip it again. Of course that's not an ideal solution either. Plus how do you visually signal to a player that if you unequip the 5th module they'll never be able to have the kit function as a 5/0 kit again? That would definitely result in some surprised and angry players.
    Again, absolutely not making any promises, but I'll investigate allowing Boffs access to non-standard costume pieces like those you mention.

    Boffs never could wear Kits, so adding those costume pieces to them may be outside our scope for this feature. But I'll look into the Armor.

    Boffs already have access to some of the kit pieces in the Tribble tailor but I've heard players report that they seem to be limited by rank? E.g. Boffs don't seem to have kit pieces for any kit that is higher than Commander since they can't be promoted past that level. Getting Boff access to the rep costume pieces is pretty important if you ask me. If we can't retain the toggle visual for Boffs, perhaps Boffs could be given costume slots like players have? Maybe just 1 extra costume per Boff? I'd bet that the system is probably not set up for that though.
    kagasensei wrote: »
    In the long run BOffs SHOULD wear kits. The BOff ability - player kit systems should be harmonized.

    Agreed, eventually.
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Plus Jem'Hadar Mk XII armor now lack visuals, considering it did have armor visuals and doesnt unlock a Costume like the Hirogen armor and costs 200 Lobi as well ... thats another thing that should be looked into.

    Yeah Jem'Hadar armor has been overlooked with this new tailor visuals update. And it's not the only one:
    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Chromodynamic_Armor

    Joined January 2009
    Finger wrote:
    Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
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    nyniknynik Member Posts: 1,626 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Hi, the following might have been asked or discussed earlier in the thread, but I can't search it at the minute - so apologies in advance.

    With kit powers now being modular has any consideration been given to how they may one day interact with a potential player crafting revamp? For example, could augmentations be attached to modules to change or supplement the main powers with some variations or additional affects?
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    mightybobcncmightybobcnc Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    nynik wrote: »
    Hi, the following might have been asked or discussed earlier in the thread, but I can't search it at the minute - so apologies in advance.

    With kit powers now being modular has any consideration been given to how they may one day interact with a potential player crafting revamp? For example, could augmentations be attached to modules to change or supplement the main powers with some variations or additional affects?

    Define "main powers." You mean innate captain abilities? Or do you mean a module that enhances another module (which would remove 1 active power from the player as a tradeoff for enhancing one of the kit's other abilities)?

    Either way, what you're describing sounds like Doffs.

    -edit- Or perhaps you mean take a standard Lunge Mk X module, use it as a material input to craft a Lunge Mk X module with +placate upon attack or something similar?

    Joined January 2009
    Finger wrote:
    Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
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