The Kumari wing cannons do 30k crits not including the R-Type platforms output. And with slight modifications they could be turned INTO a lance weapon for the dreadnought.
I've never actually paid attention to the Kumari in action, so I'll have to look it up before I respond.
That said, along the lines of adapting existing technology and programming, what do you think of the idea of saucer separation altering the boff seating like with the Dyson Science destroyers?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The 2 Piece Console Set Bonus grants a +2 Turn rate, not the previously mentioned +1
~CaptainSmirk
Well now....that's interesting. That will put the turn rate in the Excelsior range, a turn rate I found that fits me perfectly. May need to take another look at the Venture while it's on sale.
That's the point of debate and discussion. I feel that everyone agrees with you all the time either you're stating something obvious (the sky on a clear day on Earth is blue) or completely meaningless.
Indeed
Even with EPS consoles recovering the drain between shots isn't gonna help much since power from beams doesn't really replenish until the weapon stops firing. If you fire the lance at 125 in that model it would be 125, 115, 105, 95, 85. I suppose that's workable especially if the first shot crushes the shields.
That was just an example of mitigation (and not a great one, I admit). To completely overcome the heavy power drain, you would need something like the plasmotic leach, emergency power to weapons, Aux2batt, or the Marion duty officer that mitigates weapon drain on directed energy modulation.
With the first model, if power starts at 125, then each shot would drain 25 power (being one fifth of 125), thus putting you at zero at the end of the cycle. Each shot fired in the cycle, would be independent of the other as far as hit, damage, crit, and crit damage calculation is concerned. Power management would be essential to keep the weapon's damage from dropping off too steeply. That includes not firing other energy weapons. Damage for each shot is based off what your power was at the start of the cycle (here that is 125).
The second model would work similar, but because your damage and energy drain are static (keep the drain at 50 for example), you would need to keep your weapon power from hitting zero to maintain fire (5 shots max). Here also, hit, damage, crit, crit damage is calculated separately for each shot.
The first model is more flexible, but would have lower damage per shot than the second model, which has higher damage but the potential to not be able to continue fire due to lack of weapon power. Both could lock you out of firing other weapons, or perhaps just energy weapons.
I am not certain what a fair cooldown (if one is needed) would be good, but I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty to forty seconds.
In this respect, heavy engineering capability becomes an asset.
Also........warp 13 plz.
But the Prometheus is in full production now. And according to the ENT episode Azati Prime it was still operational in the 25th century.
Oh yes, I had forgotten about Prometheus. Good point. I loathed Voyager, and tend to forget things that happened in it.
My point wasn't that it was optimal, but that all Starfleet vessels can serve as science vessels as that's what it means to be a Starfleet vessel.
I disagree, sure you can build four five small fast ships like the Defiant with the resources that it takes to build a single Galaxy class, but I don't think that it is more resource, energy, or time efficient to dismantle a Galaxy class and repurpose the materials into a new ship versus modding a Galaxy with a third nacelle and a large heavy weapon. And probably new shields (a 1.1 shield modifier that's it?).
Having multiple ships for the same cost of having one big one is more efficient for Starfleet from the standpoint that it usually finds itself short of available starships in critical situation. Having a big expensive ship in the wrong place at the wrong time effectively renders that ship meaningless.
I consulted the wik on this one, for a historic perspective.
The dreadnought was the predominant type of battleship in the early 20th century. The first of the kind, the Royal Navy's Dreadnought, made such a strong impression on people's minds when it was launched in 1906 that similar battleships built subsequently were referred to generically as "dreadnoughts", and earlier battleships became known as pre-dreadnoughts. The Dreadnought's design had two revolutionary features: an "all-big-gun" armament scheme, with an unprecedented number of heavy-calibre guns, and steam turbine propulsion.[a] As dreadnoughts became a crucial symbol of national power, the arrival of these new warships renewed the naval arms race between the United Kingdom and Germany. Dreadnought races sprang up around the world, including in South America, lasting up to the beginning of World War I.
Now while the Federation isn't the type of power to start an arms race with her competitors the Federation is also not the type of power that's going to simply sit back and be outgunned. We don't send Starfleet officers to die after all. Starfleet's purpose is exploration, but due to the fact that they are the ones out there on the frontier at the borders, coming into contact with hostiles first, their other primary purpose is to defend the Federation. I'm like Teddy, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yes, and the same problems with that would happen here too. Whether or not Starfleet would want to start an arms race wouldn't matter. One would happen anyway, as the Klingon Empire, the Dominion, Romulans (though as of now, they have the Scimitar), or anyone else with the ability to maintain a fleet would see that as a threat, and begin their own super heavy construction, just like in your example. Even though they are at war, the Klingon Empire is currently using pretty standard weapons and tactics. With an arms race, you would see more heavy batlecruisers, and new battleships. (Not this silly "the KDF makes us no money so they don't get anything" mentality Cryptic has, which is a separate discussion.)
Starfleet, and the Federation at large, wants to avoid the appearance of being an expansionist military power. It's part of why there was so much flak over calling the Defiant an escort. With something like a dreadnaught, the problem is exacerbated. The Federation doesn't need a symbol of pride or national power.
You see it automatically as a terror weapon. I see it as a stand off weapon. Strategic deterrence. We are the Federation and we're not gonna launch biogenic weapons (barring Sisko but he was trying to prove a damn point), we don't touch thalaron weaponry at all, nor will we use trilithium torpedoes on your sun, or isolytic subspace weaponry. But don't get us wrong, we can build big ships, with big guns, that you will lose to.
I'm not sure where I stand on a Dreadnaught with a cloak though. That said for canon's sake the cloak should be integrated. Just saying. I'm for damn sure not a Pressman Starfleet officer though.
The temptation to use such a weapon would be too great for some officers not to use it. "If you have a 'big stick' you should use it". Remember Benjamin Maxwell from TNG: The wounded? Imagine him with a Galaxy-X. People being what they are, he wouldn't be an isolated case of hate or anger taking the helm.
Also, for not being a battleship, the Pheonix certainly did number on the Cardassians.
You don't need super weapons for strategic deterence, they certainly help, but they are not necessary. What they do is make everyone very nervous, and become a trap, that snares powers in an arms race.
As for the cloak, I just give it a pass, since I consider the Galaxy-X to be a fish out of water.
That's fair enough, it's not clear cut enough that intelligent people can't come down on different sides of it. That's why I hate temporal mechanics.
Which is why I enjoy discussions. Seeing other points of view can allow you to see a bigger picture, or what you have overlooked (like me and the Prometheus).
Temporal mechanics give me a headache.
Well seeing as how it has the largest gun in Federation history I can see why they'd come to that conclusion.
It was some of the same issues. Normal Rear Admiral Assault Cruisers have the same LT-Ens Tac setup, but the ship is restricted to beams and you can't use the strongest beam skills with that set up. And it had reached a point where the ship that was supposed to be the tank couldn't draw enough aggro to actually tank. The argument for the refit was that it should be more tactically capable. Which ultimately mercifully happened and I love it.
It's more of a "one gun wonder" in my view, think of it as a really large gunboat with a really large gun. Siege ship, gun boat, or maybe even monitor might have been a better term. It's a 25th century artillery piece.
8000 light years in diameter and only the Okudas and God knows how much volume. It isn't logical for the Federation to have left all their other borders unguarded to fight the Dominion. Even at Warp 9.99 it takes a year to cross the Federation. At the Enterprise-D's top speed Warp 9.6 that's something like 5 years.
The 2800 Dominion ships would've been enough to finish the war against the allies. I think that wasn't because Starfleet only has 5000 ships or so, but because they only had 2000 that they could get to the front. The Dominion War had a pretty healthy build up. Starfleet had a few years to recall ships from the frontier and reorganize their fleet deployment to get people to the areas around the Cardassian border. That was accelerated with the war with the Klingons. But that doesn't mean they redeployed the entire fleet. The Dominion was going to win with those ships because of concentration of force.
Starfleet and the Klingons had also ground their edges against each other as well, so they went into the Dominion War with less ships then they had to begin with.
I will say that in The Motion Picture, the 1701 was the only ship that could intercept V'ger, but that was on short notice for something coming straight at Earth at high speed. The idea seems to be that in peacetime most Starfleet vessels are out exploring the unknown and patrolling the borders and that only in times of war do they come together. On the same note the NCC-2000 was still 15 years away, so I think Starfleet back then was much smaller as was the Federation. And the 1701 was 25 years old as it was. Starfleet shipbuilding was either far less capable (easy as replicators hadn't been invented yet) and/or they focused on fewer high quality ships. Something that ramped up in the next century.
Star Trek is based on the Horatio Hornblower age of discovery ideal that one ship will be out at the edge of the unknown and be the sole representative of their nation there. But for a war that depiction must shift so you get to see how big this thing really is. Patrolling Federation space must be a truly titanic task.
If we're gonna look at one thing we should look at this, I think this is the greatest indicator.
The Excelsior class is still in service. The Excelsior is NCC-2000. Assuming that most ships in that era have relatively long service lives, if you want to say that most starships after her stayed in service to the Dominion war era, then we have the Prometheus whose plaque and MSD says NX-74913. That's what? 72913 Starfleet vessels built in a century.
This is also from show runner Ronald B. Moore in 1997. Size Edit
Regarding the quantity of starships Starfleet had in use in the late 2370s, Moore commented, "I wouldn't be surprised if Starfleet had 30,000 ships or so." (AOL chat, 1997) This was based on reasoning that the USS Hood has a registry of NCC-42296 while the USS Voyager is NCC-74656.
During Operation Return, Starfleet attempted to prevent the Dominion from bringing down the minefield, which would have allowed 2800 ships to come through the wormhole, which would allow for a Dominion total victory. Meaning that since, at that time of the war, the forces of both sides were about equal, the true size of the Dominion forces was much larger than Starfleet.
Doctor Zimmerman claimed that there were 675 EMH Mark I instances active in Starfleet before they were taken off duty during the Dominion War. (VOY: "Life Line")
That's quite a bit of really good information when you take a look at that archive. I had no idea that existed. :eek:
For the registry numbers issue, I think that there was no effort to catalog all the canon named ships, so there was no official guide for people to look at that had ship names and registry number. There were a couple of instances where you had ship names showing up in other episodes with different registry numbers, as I recall. The lack of a database for ship names and registry numbers made it hard to designate new ships in later stories. By inflating registry numbers you can dodge that point somewhat. So rather than Starfleet having that many hulls according to registry numbers, I would chalk that up to continuity problems. In universe it could easily be a matter of cancelling construction plans for ships already slated for construction, which would have a designation number. Any new constructions after that would have higher registry numbers. So in theory you could have any number of unrealized projects that eat up those registry numbers, but not actual starships.
But as stated in that information there was never a hard number given, so within reason, any number could be valid.
To me, if they had that many ships available, they would have been pulling everything they could and sending them at max speed to throw into battle. To have ships at your borders would be pointless if they lost the war.
I suppose I understand that. I'm certainly not one of the people doing the tier 5 Connie thing (seems weird to me).
But you have to admit, as it is now, it can't even do what it did in the show.
That's what annoys me the most. It can't do the one thing that made it awesome in the brief time we saw it.
Man that would be such a dream. Especially to fly into a battle against a bunch of Orion ships, they see the registry and turn around and haul tail. No shots fired.
No kidding, there is so much unrealized potential outside of shooting stuff. In your example after the enemy scatters and leaves, the mission could change to rescue, repair, or resupply or something.
That was just an example of mitigation (and not a great one, I admit). To completely overcome the heavy power drain, you would need something like the plasmotic leach, emergency power to weapons, Aux2batt, or the Marion duty officer that mitigates weapon drain on directed energy modulation.
While that's great if you're running a beam boat with 8 beams and want to spam FAW, is that really optimal to need that to use the lance effectively? If we have it at 125 that should be a good ground. Although adding all that is terrifying.
With the first model, if power starts at 125, then each shot would drain 25 power (being one fifth of 125), thus putting you at zero at the end of the cycle. Each shot fired in the cycle, would be independent of the other as far as hit, damage, crit, and crit damage calculation is concerned. Power management would be essential to keep the weapon's damage from dropping off too steeply. That includes not firing other energy weapons. Damage for each shot is based off what your power was at the start of the cycle (here that is 125).
The second model would work similar, but because your damage and energy drain are static (keep the drain at 50 for example), you would need to keep your weapon power from hitting zero to maintain fire (5 shots max). Here also, hit, damage, crit, crit damage is calculated separately for each shot.
The first model is more flexible, but would have lower damage per shot than the second model, which has higher damage but the potential to not be able to continue fire due to lack of weapon power. Both could lock you out of firing other weapons, or perhaps just energy weapons.
I am not certain what a fair cooldown (if one is needed) would be good, but I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty to forty seconds.
In this respect, heavy engineering capability becomes an asset.
I would accept shutting down other energy weapons to keep the lance from having so much power drop off that the shots become less effective over time. As I see it the narrow firing arc is a trade off for the power.
As for the cooldown if we want this to be the primary weapon then a firing time under a minute has to be the case, I'd say 45 seconds is the sweet spot. That prevents spam but is fast enough that you can set up your strategy around it. Especially if you're not going to give the ship a battle cloak. There's no escape factor, the cloak is purely an opening ambush, so be continuously surprise attacked isn't a factor.
Also........warp 13 plz.
I'm not gonna lie, Innate warp 13= me using the Adapted MACO set
Oh yes, I had forgotten about Prometheus. Good point. I loathed Voyager, and tend to forget things that happened in it.
The Defiant was also in production by the end of the series.
Voyager, Voyager, Voyager. I understand the complaints, but Voyager did have some great high points, and no I'm not talking about the valleys of Seven of Nine's dermoplast body suit.
Having multiple ships for the same cost of having one big one is more efficient for Starfleet from the standpoint that it usually finds itself short of available starships in critical situation. Having a big expensive ship in the wrong place at the wrong time effectively renders that ship meaningless.
I'm not saying they wouldn't build multiple smaller ships for the cost of one, I'm saying that it's not more efficient to dismantle and repurpose the parts from a perfectly viable ship to build more from it. Especially since generally speaking, a Galaxy-X is equal in deterrent force to a few Defiants. That's Starfleet's thinking because there have been plenty of times when they've sent the Enterprise to an area to quell people getting rowdy.
Yes, and the same problems with that would happen here too. Whether or not Starfleet would want to start an arms race wouldn't matter. One would happen anyway, as the Klingon Empire, the Dominion, Romulans (though as of now, they have the Scimitar), or anyone else with the ability to maintain a fleet would see that as a threat, and begin their own super heavy construction, just like in your example. Even though they are at war, the Klingon Empire is currently using pretty standard weapons and tactics. With an arms race, you would see more heavy batlecruisers, and new battleships. (Not this silly "the KDF makes us no money so they don't get anything" mentality Cryptic has, which is a separate discussion.)
The issue is there already is one in effect. The Romulans started it with he Scimitar. They wouldn't start the arms race, but they're not going to sit back and lose one either. We've got running up on a trillion citizens to protect.
And you're right the Avenger and the Mogh are certainly prime examples.
Honestly I'm wondering what a Klingon counter to the G-X would look like. Honestly that's what I'd say the Bortas is.
Starfleet, and the Federation at large, wants to avoid the appearance of being an expansionist military power. It's part of why there was so much flak over calling the Defiant an escort. With something like a dreadnaught, the problem is exacerbated. The Federation doesn't need a symbol of pride or national power.
I'm not saying you're incorrect, but nor does the Federation want to appear weak either.
That said, the Enterprise itself, is a symbol of pride and national power, that's what a Flagship is all about. Look at this great thing that we built. That said I do agree that having one in every player's garage is clearly an acceptable break from reality, as Starfleet certainly wouldn't build an entire fleet of them, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't build a few. One in each major fleet or maybe even wing.
The temptation to use such a weapon would be too great for some officers not to use it. "If you have a 'big stick' you should use it". Remember Benjamin Maxwell from TNG: The wounded? Imagine him with a Galaxy-X. People being what they are, he wouldn't be an isolated case of hate or anger taking the helm.
Also, for not being a battleship, the Pheonix certainly did number on the Cardassians.
You don't need super weapons for strategic deterence, they certainly help, but they are not necessary. What they do is make everyone very nervous, and become a trap, that snares powers in an arms race.
I feel you've nullified your own point here. Every single Federation Starship, is a weapon of mass destruction, every phaser a risk. They've been telling us this since the Original Series, where we had Captain Kirk himself threatening to glass the surface of a planet, where a Captain looking for the fountain of youth gave phasers to communists with longevity.
Look at what Thomas Riker was able to accomplish with a hijacked Defiant.
Any ship can be abused.
But as much as Starfleet is an exploratory agency, they're also the first and last line of defense. They've got to be ready. Worf could kill Jm'pok next year and we'll be able to restore the Khitomer Accords, but we still need to be able to take on the Borg and the Iconians. And Starfleet will still explore. I loved that blog that showed Operation Return in operation with a Starfleet Science ship out at the border of the Delta Quadrant. We can do both.
As for the cloak, I just give it a pass, since I consider the Galaxy-X to be a fish out of water.
It's an outlier.
Which is why I enjoy discussions. Seeing other points of view can allow you to see a bigger picture, or what you have overlooked (like me and the Prometheus).
Temporal mechanics give me a headache.
Absolutely.
It's more of a "one gun wonder" in my view, think of it as a really large gunboat with a really large gun. Siege ship, gun boat, or maybe even monitor might have been a better term. It's a 25th century artillery piece.
Siege Ship works for me too. Gun boat rubs against my Navy sensibilities.
That's quite a bit of really good information when you take a look at that archive. I had no idea that existed. :eek:
I love Memory Alpha.
For the registry numbers issue, I think that there was no effort to catalog all the canon named ships, so there was no official guide for people to look at that had ship names and registry number. There were a couple of instances where you had ship names showing up in other episodes with different registry numbers, as I recall. The lack of a database for ship names and registry numbers made it hard to designate new ships in later stories. By inflating registry numbers you can dodge that point somewhat. So rather than Starfleet having that many hulls according to registry numbers, I would chalk that up to continuity problems. In universe it could easily be a matter of cancelling construction plans for ships already slated for construction, which would have a designation number. Any new constructions after that would have higher registry numbers. So in theory you could have any number of unrealized projects that eat up those registry numbers, but not actual starships.
But as stated in that information there was never a hard number given, so within reason, any number could be valid.
The Prometheus that I cited is an example of messed up registry numbers. The one on the hull is lower than the one the MSD and the Plaque. It was an issue of a placeholder number vs the actual one. Mike Okuda realized it was too low (the one on the hull is lower than Voyagers), the MSD is the accurate one.
While that's true, I look at them as construction registry numbers, I don't think Starfleet has anywhere near that many cancelled constructions. They have a truly stupendous amount of space to cover just for the Federation and then they're exploring well beyond their own borders. That requires a LOT of hardware.
To me, if they had that many ships available, they would have been pulling everything they could and sending them at max speed to throw into battle. To have ships at your borders would be pointless if they lost the war.
No. The Federation has lots of friends, but also plenty of enemies. You can't just leave yourself open to attack from the Tzenkethi, the Romulans (before they entered the war), the Tholians, the So'na. If it takes a year to get any ship from one side of the Federation to the other you can't just leave one border open and assume that that's going to be fine. If you have the Dominion on one side, and there's a Borg incursion on the other, you have to already have forces in place to deal with that.
Starfleet learned that lesson well, the Borg incursion of 2367 took place when the Federation had a long period of peace (at least from major war) and their deep space programs were in full gear. They could only get 39 starships together to defend the capitol.
That's what annoys me the most. It can't do the one thing that made it awesome in the brief time we saw it.
No kidding, there is so much unrealized potential outside of shooting stuff. In your example after the enemy scatters and leaves, the mission could change to rescue, repair, or resupply or something.
OOOH OOOH OOH OOH (jumping up and down)
Then the rescue mission could turn into a medical ground mission like what was it? Cold Comfort? The Breen mission where you had to help with the medical triage unit and where you met Tran. But in this case it would be like an engine repair mission. Or you have to go hunt down the Orion ships so you can rescue the people they kidnapped into slavery.
The beauty being you wouldn't have the option to get that mission if you don't have the rep.
And I don't know about you, but I'm thinking about things like the Tau Dewa Patrol mission, so these things are still counting towards your percentage. The Tal Shiar mission leads to infiltrating a Tal Shiar base and stopping people from being brainwashed.
And here's another thing. You come across an Orion slaver or Nausicaan raider. Where's their since of self preservation? If they run and then you hunt them down, they know they can't win, so why wouldn't they accept arrest? Two years in a Federation rehab colony and they can be on their way. There are plenty of non warrior races that are good with going to prison versus dying for nothing.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Not to be a nit picker but the dev Blog is wrong about this part
"firing a massive phaser beam out of the Spinal Phaser Lance, obliterating the KDF Vessel with one powerful shot, and speeding through the debris with 3 nacelles on its back. Such a strong scene has certainly remained one of the most memorable in all of TNG lore."
After re watching that episode it actually took 5 possibly 6 Shots to obliterate the KDF vessel
.... even though I don't agree with the Gal X being in the game since it was from a Hypothetical future and will most likely never exist, they should still get the facts straight
Not to be a nit picker but the dev Blog is wrong about this part
"firing a massive phaser beam out of the Spinal Phaser Lance, obliterating the KDF Vessel with one powerful shot, and speeding through the debris with 3 nacelles on its back. Such a strong scene has certainly remained one of the most memorable in all of TNG lore."
After re watching that episode it actually took 5 possibly 6 Shots to obliterate the KDF vessel
.... even though I don't agree with the Gal X being in the game since it was from a Hypothetical future and will most likely never exist, they should still get the facts straight
You're not nitpicking on that, as it's been mentioned and discussed already. I counted five. I would actually love a five shot like that that fires under once a minute.
And just go back a few pages if you want to see the debate on whether an anti-time future ship should be in game. Keep in mind that we saw the Negh'var for the first time in that future as well. They should add the option to remove those under wing segments on the Negh'var on that note.
The same could be said of the Vesta.
The only future Federation starship that I never want to see again is the Enterprise-J. I personally hate it.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
While that's great if you're running a beam boat with 8 beams and want to spam FAW, is that really optimal to need that to use the lance effectively? If we have it at 125 that should be a good ground. Although adding all that is terrifying.
You wouldn't need all of those things, one or two would suffice. With the engineering capacity it has, you would have several options available to you on how to get there. Having all of those though would be really nice.
I would accept shutting down other energy weapons to keep the lance from having so much power drop off that the shots become less effective over time. As I see it the narrow firing arc is a trade off for the power.
As for the cooldown if we want this to be the primary weapon then a firing time under a minute has to be the case, I'd say 45 seconds is the sweet spot. That prevents spam but is fast enough that you can set up your strategy around it. Especially if you're not going to give the ship a battle cloak. There's no escape factor, the cloak is purely an opening ambush, so be continuously surprise attacked isn't a factor.
That works for me.
I'm not gonna lie, Innate warp 13= me using the Adapted MACO set
You can do that with any ship though. When you put that set on the Galaxy-X you should have a plaid border appear around the edges of your screen when you go to warp.
The Defiant was also in production by the end of the series.
Voyager, Voyager, Voyager. I understand the complaints, but Voyager did have some great high points, and no I'm not talking about the valleys of Seven of Nine's dermoplast body suit.
I'm not saying they wouldn't build multiple smaller ships for the cost of one, I'm saying that it's not more efficient to dismantle and repurpose the parts from a perfectly viable ship to build more from it. Especially since generally speaking, a Galaxy-X is equal in deterrent force to a few Defiants. That's Starfleet's thinking because there have been plenty of times when they've sent the Enterprise to an area to quell people getting rowdy.
The Galaxy-X is only a deterrent if it can be brought to a flashpoint in time to be useful, just like a loaded gun is only useful if you can reach it.
Having more ships available is a better deterrent than having a few super ships. You can cover more areas, and still have your deterrent, without needing a super weapon.
Sending a Galaxy-X to go deal with any internal disturbance, such as a riot, civil discord, terrorism, protests, could easily end up backfiring. Here it would appear as a mailed fist. The situation that Starfleet wants to resolve now would be framed as "do it our way, or else" for anyone involved.
In the case of protesters, no matter what any negotiators had to say, the only thing that the protestors would see is the super weapon in the background. Imagine how well a report of the USS BFG arriving at planet Somewhere to deal with a mass student protest would go over in the Federation at large? Not very well I would imagine. It would become a symbol of repression almost right away. It would be a liability rather than an asset.
As for terrorists, what can this ship do to terrorists who are planet bound that another cannot? Depending on what the terrorist's goals are, you run the risk of making them appear sympathetic against the backdrop of a mailed fist.
Employing it in anything other that an offensive military capacity would up the ante, whereas another ship could deal with a situation without appearing as a threat.
Another problem with having a super weapon like that is that it becomes a first strike target for an aggressor. Espionage or covert operations here becomes a weapon of choice, something a military asset such as the Galaxy-X wouldn't be able to protect itself against. You would have to take additional measures to protect them against such a threat. This would mean you would have to dedicate more resources to protect an already resource intensive asset.
The issue is there already is one in effect. The Romulans started it with he Scimitar. They wouldn't start the arms race, but they're not going to sit back and lose one either. We've got running up on a trillion citizens to protect.
And you're right the Avenger and the Mogh are certainly prime examples.
Problem is that by giving in to the temptation to answer it with an equally destructive ship, one with no real purpose other than that, Starfleet loses the mantle of peaceful explorers and diplomats. It now devolves into a military pissing contest.
Honestly I'm wondering what a Klingon counter to the G-X would look like. Honestly that's what I'd say the Bortas is.
I am still waiting. :mad:
The Bortasqu' is a flagship, like the Odyssey. So far the KDF doesn't have a real dreadnaught.
The KDF NPC dreadnaught is the Vo'quv.
I'm not saying you're incorrect, but nor does the Federation want to appear weak either.
That said, the Enterprise itself, is a symbol of pride and national power, that's what a Flagship is all about. Look at this great thing that we built. That said I do agree that having one in every player's garage is clearly an acceptable break from reality, as Starfleet certainly wouldn't build an entire fleet of them, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't build a few. One in each major fleet or maybe even wing.
Same problem here. The Galaxy is a multirole ship, and can be used for pretty much anything. Since it's a flagship, anywhere you send it gives that mission an air of importance, without the implicit threat that a Galaxy-X would imply.
I feel you've nullified your own point here. Every single Federation Starship, is a weapon of mass destruction, every phaser a risk. They've been telling us this since the Original Series, where we had Captain Kirk himself threatening to glass the surface of a planet, where a Captain looking for the fountain of youth gave phasers to communists with longevity.
Look at what Thomas Riker was able to accomplish with a hijacked Defiant.
Any ship can be abused.
It's a matter of degree. You can kill someone with a toaster oven, but that doesn't make them a deadly weapon. Same with a starship. Any armed starship can level a planet, but that same ship can be countered by other starships. The problem is that the Galaxy-X outstrips any other Federation ship in terms of striking power, and coupled with it's speed, and and ability to cloak, it is an ideal terror weapon. It's perfect for someone with ill intent in mind.
Again, imagine Benjamin Maxwell with a Galaxy-X. He would be unstoppable. He could strike at will with impunity, and destroy pretty much all cardassian space assets with ease and no one would be able to stop him. For him, the Cardassians had no civilian space infrastructure, and everything was a fair target. The only way he was stopped was that Picard was able to find him, catch up to him, and was able to destroy his ship, and everyone on board.
If Kirk had actually done that, Starfleet could have prevented it from happening again by sending other ships to stop him. If he had cloak, that would have been impossible.
The Defiant, while an amazing little ship, could have been destroyed by the Keldon class ships it encountered, and would have been, if not for outside intervention.
The communists with phasers isn't on the same scale as a starship with a cloak and BFG.
But as much as Starfleet is an exploratory agency, they're also the first and last line of defense. They've got to be ready. Worf could kill Jm'pok next year and we'll be able to restore the Khitomer Accords, but we still need to be able to take on the Borg and the Iconians. And Starfleet will still explore. I loved that blog that showed Operation Return in operation with a Starfleet Science ship out at the border of the Delta Quadrant. We can do both.
A Galaxy-X isn't necessary for any of that. It would be useful certainly, but the drawbacks, I think, would be too great for Starfleet. Other ships can deal those threats. I don't know how much more useful the Galaxy-X would be than another ship vs. the guys who strike from shadows with proxies, and viruses.
It's an outlier.
Of the square peg variety. One that Cryptic has chosen to hammer in, with the 'Cool Starship' mallet.
Siege Ship works for me too. Gun boat rubs against my Navy sensibilities.
Yeah, it might be a tad too heavy to be considered a traditional gunboat, but it might be considered a Big Freaking Gunboat. :P
I love Memory Alpha.
Me too. It's an amazing library of Trek stuff.
The Prometheus that I cited is an example of messed up registry numbers. The one on the hull is lower than the one the MSD and the Plaque. It was an issue of a placeholder number vs the actual one. Mike Okuda realized it was too low (the one on the hull is lower than Voyagers), the MSD is the accurate one.
While that's true, I look at them as construction registry numbers, I don't think Starfleet has anywhere near that many cancelled constructions. They have a truly stupendous amount of space to cover just for the Federation and then they're exploring well beyond their own borders. That requires a LOT of hardware.
If you look at the entirety of Starfleet's history, it is possible to have any number of cancelled programs. Remember that Starfleet loves to build new classes for everything. So there is more than likely a whole slew of unrealized ship construction, and construction programs, due to changes in leadership, need, political situation, designs with flaws only discovered after the prototype was built, designs falling out of favor...etc.
They would even build a new class for a warpcore with a sneeze protection buffer.
No. The Federation has lots of friends, but also plenty of enemies. You can't just leave yourself open to attack from the Tzenkethi, the Romulans (before they entered the war), the Tholians, the So'na. If it takes a year to get any ship from one side of the Federation to the other you can't just leave one border open and assume that that's going to be fine. If you have the Dominion on one side, and there's a Borg incursion on the other, you have to already have forces in place to deal with that.
Starfleet learned that lesson well, the Borg incursion of 2367 took place when the Federation had a long period of peace (at least from major war) and their deep space programs were in full gear. They could only get 39 starships together to defend the capitol.
If it meant the Federation was destroyed, those borders would be worthless. If that happened, then the other powers would certainly take advantage and scoop up anything that remained. Ships here and there are not going to stop an incursion in force. They have to be concentrated, which goes back to my assertion that if they can concentrate them like that, then they certainly would vs a force that would destroy the heart of the Federation.
OOOH OOOH OOH OOH (jumping up and down)
Then the rescue mission could turn into a medical ground mission like what was it? Cold Comfort? The Breen mission where you had to help with the medical triage unit and where you met Tran. But in this case it would be like an engine repair mission. Or you have to go hunt down the Orion ships so you can rescue the people they kidnapped into slavery.
The beauty being you wouldn't have the option to get that mission if you don't have the rep.
And I don't know about you, but I'm thinking about things like the Tau Dewa Patrol mission, so these things are still counting towards your percentage. The Tal Shiar mission leads to infiltrating a Tal Shiar base and stopping people from being brainwashed.
And here's another thing. You come across an Orion slaver or Nausicaan raider. Where's their since of self preservation? If they run and then you hunt them down, they know they can't win, so why wouldn't they accept arrest? Two years in a Federation rehab colony and they can be on their way. There are plenty of non warrior races that are good with going to prison versus dying for nothing.
Exactly.
Your Tal Shiar example could fit under T4 Espionage. If you don't have that rank, it won't show up.
It would also work for Marauding on the KDF side, where higher ranks could net you more goods. At rank 4 your guys would even know where the target's crew would keep the stuff that their ship's security missed. Also opportunities for plunder in ground missions (not the normal loot drops you find) would be nice.
Your ship enters a system with rank 4 military, and and anything there that is less than a fleet leaves, or becomes much more willing to cooperate.
Unless it's Klingon or Hirogen then it will attack you because you are awesome.
That reminds me of the joke I saw in the Starfleet Battles Orion materials.
"What is the difference between an Orion pirate, and an Orion merchant?"
The difference is in how much firepower the other guys have. He's a Pirate, if he has more firepower than you, and a merchant if he has less.
Imagine a mission where you enter a system that has reports of pirate activity. You fly in and come up on an unidentified ship or ships in system, and are scanned by them.
Orion captain 1: "Scan that ship and identify it."
Orion crewmember A: "Captain, it's the USS Sunshine, Registry NCC-942014. A Federation Galaxy Class Cruiser."
Orion Captain 1: "Hmm, we have enough ships to deal with a Galaxy class. Any more information on it?"
Orion crewmember A: "Yes Captain. Every ship that has engaged her, has either been destroyed or captured. She has also destroyed several small fleets. Rumor has it that 'sunshine' in the human language means 'will kick the screaming TRIBBLE out of you'."
Orion Captain 1: "Right, we are harmless and peaceful armed merchants, send that to the other ships."
Orion crewmember B: "Message sent, Captain 2 is onscreen."
Orion Captain 2: "Wait, we outnumber this guy, and have enough firepower to destroy them!"
Orion Captain 1: "I am sure that's what all the other ship's that he has defeated thought too. I am leaving, and you should too...unless you like the idea of a heroic demise, or a Federation prison."
Orion ships 1, 2, and 3 start emitting freighter transponder codes, and head out system, at top speed.
You forget that while several assets combined assets roled into one do inded decrease your area coverage,it also means that your opponents forces get equally limited.
Yes, one could outmaneuver the few superships and achieve breakthroughs on a larger front, congrats to that btw.
But would one mind us sending said superships straight down your homeworld?
Oh, you didnt place assets in range to intercept and did not make destroying our superships a priority.
K. Have fun fighting that protracted war with our smaller fleet that can fight in a position of defense close to home. . . we are just quickly demolishing your infrastructure. Sorry.
You wouldn't need all of those things, one or two would suffice. With the engineering capacity it has, you would have several options available to you on how to get there. Having all of those though would be really nice.
True enough.
That works for me.
If anyone is still reading this thread and the other discussing it, if you're so unwilling to alter the Boff setup think about rebuilding the Lance.
You can do that with any ship though. When you put that set on the Galaxy-X you should have a plaid border appear around the edges of your screen when you go to warp.
In that case we'll need an Emergency Brake Console.
Voyager had some truly good moments. It just had worse low points. What's your feeling one Enterprise? I liked it overall.
The Galaxy-X is only a deterrent if it can be brought to a flashpoint in time to be useful, just like a loaded gun is only useful if you can reach it.
Having more ships available is a better deterrent than having a few super ships. You can cover more areas, and still have your deterrent, without needing a super weapon.
The same can be said of any ship or collection of ships.
Look at Battle Group Omega. They're going to be extremely useful in the battle to stop the Scimitar....if they would've been there. We won't discuss the strategic blunder of ever flying through the Bassen Rift at any time in history.
But you don't send the Galaxy-X to flashpoints. You send the Prometheus, the Defiant. That said, the Galaxy-X in All Good Things did have transwarp so for all intents and purposes it may have been the fastest in the fleet too.
But you station the the Galaxy-X at the already serious problem spots. For instance, they have one stationed with the Special Task Force Omega fleet guarding the Transwarp conduit out of Gamma Orionis. I would have one stationed at Utopia Planitia (let's see the Klingons hit the yards now.) The point of a deterrent isn't that you send it where it needs to be, that's an interceptor; the deterrent is something you place where you don't want your enemies to ever dare to go.
Sending a Galaxy-X to go deal with any internal disturbance, such as a riot, civil discord, terrorism, protests, could easily end up backfiring. Here it would appear as a mailed fist. The situation that Starfleet wants to resolve now would be framed as "do it our way, or else" for anyone involved.
In the case of protesters, no matter what any negotiators had to say, the only thing that the protestors would see is the super weapon in the background. Imagine how well a report of the USS BFG arriving at planet Somewhere to deal with a mass student protest would go over in the Federation at large? Not very well I would imagine. It would become a symbol of repression almost right away. It would be a liability rather than an asset.
What despot would send a Galaxy-X to deal with an internal dispute? This is the United Federation of Planets not the Galactic Empire. You would definitely send a traditional Galaxy especially if it's a member or allied world. Now if it's a dealing with the Son'a then I'm going to send a Galaxy-X.
As for terrorists, what can this ship do to terrorists who are planet bound that another cannot? Depending on what the terrorist's goals are, you run the risk of making them appear sympathetic against the backdrop of a mailed fist.
Employing it in anything other that an offensive military capacity would up the ante, whereas another ship could deal with a situation without appearing as a threat.
Another problem with having a super weapon like that is that it becomes a first strike target for an aggressor. Espionage or covert operations here becomes a weapon of choice, something a military asset such as the Galaxy-X wouldn't be able to protect itself against. You would have to take additional measures to protect them against such a threat. This would mean you would have to dedicate more resources to protect an already resource intensive asset.
That is any terrorist group. Look at the incident in "Attached" with the Kes and the Prytt, or the Ansata in the "High Ground". They saw the Galaxy class as exactly the same thing the big gun doesn't matter it's still a ship more powerful than you.
As someone who has served on the big target ship before, let me say that that's always a concern, but it isn't as easy as it would seem. Despite the number of terrorist attacks the Big E-D endured. If using covert operations to take out starships was as easy as you say, then it would be the primary method of combating starships anyway.
Problem is that by giving in to the temptation to answer it with an equally destructive ship, one with no real purpose other than that, Starfleet loses the mantle of peaceful explorers and diplomats. It now devolves into a military pissing contest.
I disagree entirely. You need to be able to make sure that a war will be costly enough in order to get some people to the table. And you would send a different ship to do the negotiations depending on who you were dealing with. If I'm negotiating with Klingons I'm sending my biggest gun as a matter of respect. The Romulans I might not. If the species has a culture more in line with the Vulcans I may send a science vessel instead.
But Starfleet doesn't give up the position of respect and diplomacy because they're able to defend themselves. If they come off as weak to some people then they may decide "Why should we negotiate when we can just take what we want?"
Militaries always have their pissing contests, but the diplomats need to see past that to their work anyway. Nuclear deterrence worked as a strategy precisely because both sides actually could annihilate each other. And the diplomacy said, "let's not."
I am still waiting. :mad:
The Bortasqu' is a flagship, like the Odyssey. So far the KDF doesn't have a real dreadnaught.
The KDF NPC dreadnaught is the Vo'quv.
Seriously, I think we can agree that if any faction would have dreadnaughts with giant guns it would be the KDF. Unless they can't figure out how a Disruptor Lance would work. Hell that's the Federation right there, "Spinal lance". Klingons would call it a damn heavy cannon and be done with it.
Maybe they saw the LtCdr tac boff slot and weren't threatened.
Same problem here. The Galaxy is a multirole ship, and can be used for pretty much anything. Since it's a flagship, anywhere you send it gives that mission an air of importance, without the implicit threat that a Galaxy-X would imply.
Well the Galaxy-X clearly has a different mission profile than the Galaxy. You place the Galaxy-X either where either you need something protected, or you send it where the situation has already deteriorated.
It's a matter of degree. You can kill someone with a toaster oven, but that doesn't make them a deadly weapon. Same with a starship. Any armed starship can level a planet, but that same ship can be countered by other starships. The problem is that the Galaxy-X outstrips any other Federation ship in terms of striking power, and coupled with it's speed, and and ability to cloak, it is an ideal terror weapon. It's perfect for someone with ill intent in mind.
Wait wait wait. That's not incorrect, but the Galaxy-X isn't invincible. It's tough, but that doesn't mean that it can't be brought down. This isn't the Krenim Temporal Weapon Ship or even the Scimitar. We're not talking about a cloaking Death Star here. It's still very much a ship to ship or Ship to starbase unit. You're talking about it in terms like a biogenic weapon or it being equipped with Isolytic Subspace Weaponry. There's a huge breadth, a HUGE breadth between an extremely powerful ship to ship combatant and a weapon of mass destruction. If we're looking at it as say an answer to the Scimitar even, it still doesn't come close. It's not like they answered one to one. The Federation isn't fielding Thalaron weaponry or developing Omega molecule torpedoes.
Again, imagine Benjamin Maxwell with a Galaxy-X. He would be unstoppable. He could strike at will with impunity, and destroy pretty much all cardassian space assets with ease and no one would be able to stop him. For him, the Cardassians had no civilian space infrastructure, and everything was a fair target. The only way he was stopped was that Picard was able to find him, catch up to him, and was able to destroy his ship, and everyone on board.
You can't make an accounting for crazy Captains. To heck with commanding a Galaxy-X, we could get a suicidal captain who locks their ship on a course at warp speed into a planet of people who murdered his wife or child, it's still gonna be something horrible.
I find it interesting how Star Trek has treated the "insane" Captain especially in TNG.
Maxwell, went off the grid and started destroying Cardassian ships and facilities. In the end he was disgraced and removed from command. But....he was actually correct about the Cardassian's activities.
The same happened with Picard in First Contact, Starfleet was concerned that he was going to nut up and lose his ability to command effectively against the Borg, in which they were wrong, as soon as he got to the battle the tide turned and Earth was saved. Then he went back in time and had to face them for a prolonged losing battle...and Starfleet Command was vindicated as he wasn't entirely "over it" after all.
They can do all the psych evaluations that they want but you'll never be able to predict every single problem. It doesn't matter the class or capability of the ship.
I know you hate Voyager, but Captain Ransom did more than enough damage just with his Nova Class science ship the Equinox.
Another thing of note is that the Captain isn't alone. He has a crew. Though as Picard demonstrated sometimes that crew isn't enough of a restraint. We don't even need to go into detail about Commodore Decker.
But don't over rely on diplomacy either. I'll follow Scotty's lead. No, I will not lower the screens, not until the captain tells me to.
And Picard did not destroy the Phoenix. He used a technical detail of the ship's shields and sensor interaction that allowed Chief O'Brien who was his former tactical officer and friend to beam over and talk (sing) him down from the ledge. The crazy thing is he even gave the ship's command codes to the Cardassians to take control of the ship's computer. And those Cardassian's still lost. Is the Galor superior to the Nebula in this game?
If Kirk had actually done that, Starfleet could have prevented it from happening again by sending other ships to stop him. If he had cloak, that would have been impossible.
That's something that I always wonder about. Do Klingon and Romulan ships have an IFF that allows them to detect their fellow cloaked ships? It would be useful for coordination. It would also explain why you can see cloaked ships on your own side.
Part of such a scenario wouldn't just be random. You'd have to figure out what their intentions were. That's how Sisko was able to figure out where Thomas Riker was taking the Defiant (that and a little help from Kira's sabotage).
It's something they have to be concerned about with every ship. Whenever you come up with a faster ship, better shields. The Destiny novels had lots of covert ops trying to keep the Typhon Pact (an alliance of Romulan, Breen, and a few others) from getting the Quantum Slipstream, that is a game changer right there.
The Defiant, while an amazing little ship, could have been destroyed by the Keldon class ships it encountered, and would have been, if not for outside intervention.
Clearly. Like the Defiant the Galaxy-X also has to decloak to strike.
The communists with phasers isn't on the same scale as a starship with a cloak and BFG.
Indeed it turned out that it was inferior to spears and raw numbers.
A Galaxy-X isn't necessary for any of that. It would be useful certainly, but the drawbacks, I think, would be too great for Starfleet. Other ships can deal those threats. I don't know how much more useful the Galaxy-X would be than another ship vs. the guys who strike from shadows with proxies, and viruses.
I don't think that the impact will be as severe as you say.
Of the square peg variety. One that Cryptic has chosen to hammer in, with the 'Cool Starship' mallet.
Yeah, it might be a tad too heavy to be considered a traditional gunboat, but it might be considered a Big Freaking Gunboat. :P
It's not a boat. It's a ship.
Me too. It's an amazing library of Trek stuff.
If you look at the entirety of Starfleet's history, it is possible to have any number of cancelled programs. Remember that Starfleet loves to build new classes for everything. So there is more than likely a whole slew of unrealized ship construction, and construction programs, due to changes in leadership, need, political situation, designs with flaws only discovered after the prototype was built, designs falling out of favor...etc.
Why would you need a small Starfleet? The Federation is huge. And the space they intend to explore is huge.
Sure it's possible that there have been hundreds of ships cancelled, mothballed (the Defiant), or just taken out of service. But even if half of everything that's ever been built between 2385 and 2385 is cancelled that's still 30,000 some odd starships built.
They would even build a new class for a warpcore with a sneeze protection buffer.
I actually did that. I like my warp core very clean.
If it meant the Federation was destroyed, those borders would be worthless. If that happened, then the other powers would certainly take advantage and scoop up anything that remained. Ships here and there are not going to stop an incursion in force. They have to be concentrated, which goes back to my assertion that if they can concentrate them like that, then they certainly would vs a force that would destroy the heart of the Federation.
I'm not talking about ships here and there I'm talking entire fleets. During the Dominion War they had a huge fleet protecting Earth and Betazed (when Betazed fell, their fleet was out of position on maneuvers, they didn't expect the Dominion to strike so deep).
Your Tal Shiar example could fit under T4 Espionage. If you don't have that rank, it won't show up.
It would also work for Marauding on the KDF side, where higher ranks could net you more goods. At rank 4 your guys would even know where the target's crew would keep the stuff that their ship's security missed. Also opportunities for plunder in ground missions (not the normal loot drops you find) would be nice.
Your ship enters a system with rank 4 military, and and anything there that is less than a fleet leaves, or becomes much more willing to cooperate.
Unless it's Klingon or Hirogen then it will attack you because you are awesome.
That reminds me of the joke I saw in the Starfleet Battles Orion materials.
"What is the difference between an Orion pirate, and an Orion merchant?"
The difference is in how much firepower the other guys have. He's a Pirate, if he has more firepower than you, and a merchant if he has less.
Imagine a mission where you enter a system that has reports of pirate activity. You fly in and come up on an unidentified ship or ships in system, and are scanned by them.
Orion captain 1: "Scan that ship and identify it."
Orion crewmember A: "Captain, it's the USS Sunshine, Registry NCC-942014. A Federation Galaxy Class Cruiser."
Orion Captain 1: "Hmm, we have enough ships to deal with a Galaxy class. Any more information on it?"
Orion crewmember A: "Yes Captain. Every ship that has engaged her, has either been destroyed or captured. She has also destroyed several small fleets. Rumor has it that 'sunshine' in the human language means 'will kick the screaming TRIBBLE out of you'."
Orion Captain 1: "Right, we are harmless and peaceful armed merchants, send that to the other ships."
Orion crewmember B: "Message sent, Captain 2 is onscreen."
Orion Captain 2: "Wait, we outnumber this guy, and have enough firepower to destroy them!"
Orion Captain 1: "I am sure that's what all the other ship's that he has defeated thought too. I am leaving, and you should too...unless you like the idea of a heroic demise, or a Federation prison."
Orion ships 1, 2, and 3 start emitting freighter transponder codes, and head out system, at top speed.
Get out of my head. You see you and me, we're eye to eye.
With Klingons when your rep is high enough, they start following you around. They start jumping into other fights with Negh'vars instead of Birds, but at a certain point, they want a one on one, instead of a with whole squadrons.
I know that joke. What's the difference between an Orion Merchant ship and a pirate ship? What? If you're armed it's a merchant ship, if you're not armed it's a pirate ship. I love that one.
You forget that while several assets combined assets roled into one do inded decrease your area coverage,it also means that your opponents forces get equally limited.
Yes, one could outmaneuver the few superships and achieve breakthroughs on a larger front, congrats to that btw.
But would one mind us sending said superships straight down your homeworld?
Oh, you didnt place assets in range to intercept and did not make destroying our superships a priority.
K. Have fun fighting that protracted war with our smaller fleet that can fight in a position of defense close to home. . . we are just quickly demolishing your infrastructure. Sorry.
That is a good point.
As I said earlier, it is fully the case that as soon as the war is over the Federation could start de-retrofitting their dreadnaughts. On the other hand they may need more to combat the Borg or the Iconians, the enemies out there that don't want to negotiate but they want to step on you.
Aww man. Wendy Hughes died. She was gorgeous. I loved that episode.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
You forget that while several assets combined assets roled into one do indeed decrease your area coverage,it also means that your opponents forces get equally limited.
Yes, one could outmaneuver the few superships and achieve breakthroughs on a larger front, congrats to that btw.
But would one mind us sending said superships straight down your homeworld?
Oh, you didnt place assets in range to intercept and did not make destroying our superships a priority.
"Quantity has it's own quality". That phrase has a good deal of truth behind it.
It seemed to work for the Jem Hadar, until the Prophets made a significant portion of their fleet disappear.
When you have a large volume of space to cover, quantity most certainly is better. Most of the threats the Federation faces do not involve gigantic fleets or the need for super ships. The fact that you still see Mirandas and other old ships in service says quite a lot. Which is better, having 3 Defiants, or one dreadnaught when you are constantly short of ships and have a huge volume of space to cover?
If you cannot bring your super amazing weapon to bear when you need it, what good is it? Strategic deterrence only works if the people you intend to threaten respect the threat.
Let's say that an enemy fleet slips around your supership fleets. What good is your fleet of resource intensive super ships to the planets in the path of an enemy fleet? By putting all your eggs in one basket you give a numerically superior foe the initiative.
Do you remember what Starfleet's military role is? In case you forgot, it is the defense of the Federation. Going off and playing an eye for an eye defeats that role. While you are off playing deep space raider, your assets are in jeopardy too. I cannot imagine Federation citizens taking any comfort in knowing you are out blowing stuff up, when there is an enemy fleet capturing their planet(s) and killing anyone who resists. People in the path of that fleet are going to wonder what the hell Starfleet is doing to save them.
You don't need super weapons to take out super weapons, nor superships to destroy superships. Starfleet has no threat currently that can justify the resources to build superships like that.
K. Have fun fighting that protracted war with our smaller fleet that can fight in a position of defense close to home. . . we are just quickly demolishing your infrastructure. Sorry.
That makes absolutely no sense. Which is it? Are you fighting in defense close to home? Are you off blowing up enemy infrastructure? Either you are going to defend Federation citizens, or you are not.
How is it going to be protracted? A numerically superior foe would have the initiative.
"Quantity has it's own quality". That phrase has a good deal of truth behind it.
It seemed to work for the Jem Hadar, until the Prophets made a significant portion of their fleet disappear.
When you have a large volume of space to cover, quantity most certainly is better. Most of the threats the Federation faces do not involve gigantic fleets or the need for super ships. The fact that you still see Mirandas and other old ships in service says quite a lot. Which is better, having 3 Defiants, or one dreadnaught when you are constantly short of ships and have a huge volume of space to cover?
If you cannot bring your super amazing weapon to bear when you need it, what good is it? Strategic deterrence only works if the people you intend to threaten respect the threat.
Let's say that an enemy fleet slips around your supership fleets. What good is your fleet of resource intensive super ships to the planets in the path of an enemy fleet? By putting all your eggs in one basket you give a numerically superior foe the initiative.
Do you remember what Starfleet's military role is? In case you forgot, it is the defense of the Federation. Going off and playing an eye for an eye defeats that role. While you are off playing deep space raider, your assets are in jeopardy too. I cannot imagine Federation citizens taking any comfort in knowing you are out blowing stuff up, when there is an enemy fleet capturing their planet(s) and killing anyone who resists. People in the path of that fleet are going to wonder what the hell Starfleet is doing to save them.
You don't need super weapons to take out super weapons, nor superships to destroy superships. Starfleet has no threat currently that can justify the resources to build superships like that.
That makes absolutely no sense. Which is it? Are you fighting in defense close to home? Are you off blowing up enemy infrastructure? Either you are going to defend Federation citizens, or you are not.
How is it going to be protracted? A numerically superior foe would have the initiative.
Do not assume that all your opponents are idiots.
Congratulations, you have managed to miss the point entirely.
The german navy was never a match for the Royal navy, and yet the brits went ballistic about letting bismark and co slip past their grip.
Disproportionate amount of military efforts were spend on sinking these ships. Why?
Because you do not let your enemy keep beatsticks like that.
The brits knew to keep their assets ready, because the bismark could have just as easily made a suicide run on london for example. That did bind a lot of forces.
Your initiative means little, in the long run.
All yoi achieve over time is whittle your own force down. The opponent does not need to defend everything, he just needs to defend what he needs to strike you down.
And you could not simply ignore or circumvent the opponents force concentration, because then we are back here:
welcome to fighting through established defensive setups. You are bleeding ships there. Do you want to have a large enemy taskforce poised to fall into your back or just go wreck your supply and reinforcement?
If being numerous was a surefire way to victory, many wars would have turned out differently.
Numbers are a variable in a wide selection of variables, not the end all.
If anyone is still reading this thread and the other discussing it, if you're so unwilling to alter the Boff setup think about rebuilding the Lance.
Yes please.
In that case we'll need an Emergency Brake Console.
+30 to inertial dampers
Voyager had some truly good moments. It just had worse low points. What's your feeling one Enterprise? I liked it overall.
I liked it better than Voyager. It was ok, though the Temporal War thing was kind of dumb. The Mirror Universe episodes were interesting.
The same can be said of any ship or collection of ships.
Look at Battle Group Omega. They're going to be extremely useful in the battle to stop the Scimitar....if they would've been there. We won't discuss the strategic blunder of ever flying through the Bassen Rift at any time in history.
Heh.
But you don't send the Galaxy-X to flashpoints. You send the Prometheus, the Defiant. That said, the Galaxy-X in All Good Things did have transwarp so for all intents and purposes it may have been the fastest in the fleet too.
That was my point. It's really only limited use ship. (Unless you are going to shoot the one who took your woman, then it would be ideal :P)
It occurred to me that if you have warp 13 on one ship, why not on others?
But you station the the Galaxy-X at the already serious problem spots. For instance, they have one stationed with the Special Task Force Omega fleet guarding the Transwarp conduit out of Gamma Orionis. I would have one stationed at Utopia Planitia (let's see the Klingons hit the yards now.) The point of a deterrent isn't that you send it where it needs to be, that's an interceptor; the deterrent is something you place where you don't want your enemies to ever dare to go.
But doesn't that defeat the point of having it? Think about it. It's an offensive weapon who's potential can only be realized on the offense. (though against the Borg it might be more useful) It's not going to be cloaked all the time,and as long as it's not on alert, it has no shields either.
As for the Klingons, I definitely would risk using a handful of cloaked BoP's to see about taking out a Galaxy-X while it is docked, under repair/refit, or just sitting idle. Same for the Romulans, though they would probably opt for something covert over brute force.
It would be better in many ways, just to mount the spinal phaser on fixed defenses such as space stations, where you could dedicate a power system just for it. You could still have the deterrent factor, but without the loose cannon, or mailed fist issues.
What despot would send a Galaxy-X to deal with an internal dispute? This is the United Federation of Planets not the Galactic Empire. You would definitely send a traditional Galaxy especially if it's a member or allied world. Now if it's a dealing with the Son'a then I'm going to send a Galaxy-X.
The Terran Empire certainly would. Look back at history. The use of force or terror is often the tool of choice for a tyrant.
That's my point. Why would the Federation need such starship in the larger scheme of things. The only thing it does better than any other ship is to sneak up on a target and blow it out of space. For most of what the Federation does, this is unnecessary.
The Son'a: Yeah, they would deserve it, but I doubt the Federation council would sanction indisciminate Pew Pew. Other big starships would work though. I don't think the spinal phaser has a stun or disable setting.
That is any terrorist group. Look at the incident in "Attached" with the Kes and the Prytt, or the Ansata in the "High Ground". They saw the Galaxy class as exactly the same thing the big gun doesn't matter it's still a ship more powerful than you.
Depends on the group and what their goals are, as well as how the rest of a populace regards them.
It's a matter of threat potential and message. The Galaxy class are flexible ships, powerful, yes, but they also perform many other functions besides warfare. You can send a Galaxy class or most other ships to do pretty much anything. Most of the rest of civilized space recognizes that, and isn't unduly threatened when a Starfleet ship shows up. The Galaxy-X only has one purpose, and that is to blow things up.
Problem with the Ansata is that they had a means of attacking the ship, and with enough fighters, could have taken it over with a well coordinated attack...A ship with a cloak would have been an inviting target.
The Prytt weren't terrorists. They were another political entity on the planet in question. The very fact there was a Federation starship there at all was a threat to the Prytt. The Enterprise really had no business being there. The planet wasn't ready for admission. The Prytt were rightly justified in their fears of the Kes getting Federation backing. While the Enterprise itself wasn't necessarily an issue, a Galaxy-X could have been viewed by the xenophobic Prytt as a precursor to either invasion, subjugation, or destruction, and taken it upon themselves to attack the Kes before any alliance or Federation membership could be realized. One is just a big starship, the other is a weapon.
As someone who has served on the big target ship before, let me say that that's always a concern, but it isn't as easy as it would seem. Despite the number of terrorist attacks the Big E-D endured. If using covert operations to take out starships was as easy as you say, then it would be the primary method of combating starships anyway.
Yes and no. It depends on the threat the ship represents. A covert operation or the network needed to pull off such a thing is difficult and expensive in both time and resources. The target would have to represent a shift in power, or a significant threat to make it worthy of such an operation. You are not going to blow that kind of effort on Mirandas, or even Nebulas.
Problem with using the E-D as an example is it was as much a character as the crew, and had plot armor. It would be bad for the show if the Enterprise went boom mid season.
I disagree entirely. You need to be able to make sure that a war will be costly enough in order to get some people to the table. And you would send a different ship to do the negotiations depending on who you were dealing with. If I'm negotiating with Klingons I'm sending my biggest gun as a matter of respect. The Romulans I might not. If the species has a culture more in line with the Vulcans I may send a science vessel instead.
Historically Starfleet has been able to do that with a sufficiently large fleet of capable ships. Sending a warship to anyone under the guise of peace is basically waving a knife at them. I doubt the Klingons would see it as respect, many of them could take it as an insult that the Federation would send a warship to conduct any sort of negotiations. This is because the Federation frames themselves as peacemakers, diplomats, and explorers, not warriors. Most cultures understand that the Federation has military power without it being waved under their nose.
But Starfleet doesn't give up the position of respect and diplomacy because they're able to defend themselves. If they come off as weak to some people then they may decide "Why should we negotiate when we can just take what we want?"
Militaries always have their pissing contests, but the diplomats need to see past that to their work anyway. Nuclear deterrence worked as a strategy precisely because both sides actually could annihilate each other. And the diplomacy said, "let's not."
Three Defiants can do that just as well as a single Galaxy-X will. So for that matter will a normal Galaxy class. You don't need a cloaking BFG to get that message across. If you do, then they are not looking at your military situation as a whole, or seeing your society as weak. If that is the case, then I doubt the cloaking bfg will help. You will still be seen as weak. It's a matter of mindset, and cultural attitude.
Mutual Assured Destruction only worked because both sides were afraid of pulling the trigger, were within reach of each other, and shared the same planet. It doesn't work in the context of the Star Trek universe, in my opinion, unless each side was willing to obliterate whole planets, like with the planet killer, somethig that Starfleet abhors.
Seriously, I think we can agree that if any faction would have dreadnaughts with giant guns it would be the KDF. Unless they can't figure out how a Disruptor Lance would work. Hell that's the Federation right there, "Spinal lance". Klingons would call it a damn heavy cannon and be done with it.
Maybe they saw the LtCdr tac boff slot and weren't threatened.
Lol
I am still waiting for mine. :mad:
Well the Galaxy-X clearly has a different mission profile than the Galaxy. You place the Galaxy-X either where either you need something protected, or you send it where the situation has already deteriorated.
Wait wait wait. That's not incorrect, but the Galaxy-X isn't invincible. It's tough, but that doesn't mean that it can't be brought down. This isn't the Krenim Temporal Weapon Ship or even the Scimitar. We're not talking about a cloaking Death Star here. It's still very much a ship to ship or Ship to starbase unit. You're talking about it in terms like a biogenic weapon or it being equipped with Isolytic Subspace Weaponry. There's a huge breadth, a HUGE breadth between an extremely powerful ship to ship combatant and a weapon of mass destruction. If we're looking at it as say an answer to the Scimitar even, it still doesn't come close. It's not like they answered one to one. The Federation isn't fielding Thalaron weaponry or developing Omega molecule torpedoes.
No, it's not invincible. Think of it as an early submarine. It can choose when and where to engage, and when to break off an engagement.
When it does chose to engage, it can obliterate almost any ship with a volley from the spinal phaser before the other ship could respond. You would have to counter it with a fleet, expecting to lose some ships. Quite frankly it doesn't need any other weapons to be considered a weapon of mass destruction. That spinal phaser is a hugely powerful direct fire weapon (we have no idea what it would do directed against a planet). As for being one for one with the Scimitar, the Scimitar would be torn apart by the spinal phaser, should it ever land a hit (remember that it passed unabated through a fully shielded Negh'var ), the problem being finding it to fire.
You can't make an accounting for crazy Captains. To heck with commanding a Galaxy-X, we could get a suicidal captain who locks their ship on a course at warp speed into a planet of people who murdered his wife or child, it's still gonna be something horrible.
I find it interesting how Star Trek has treated the "insane" Captain especially in TNG.
Maxwell, went off the grid and started destroying Cardassian ships and facilities. In the end he was disgraced and removed from command. But....he was actually correct about the Cardassian's activities.
Yes, but running the ship into a planet would end their reign of terror, solving the issue on it's own.
He may very well have been right about what the cardassians were up to. That was no justification for his actions though. He did exactly the same as the Cardassians who killed his family, a preemptive strike to destroy a perceived weapons depot.
If he had access to a Galaxy-X he would have been virtually unstoppable, and thousands would have died, from his assault.
The same happened with Picard in First Contact, Starfleet was concerned that he was going to nut up and lose his ability to command effectively against the Borg, in which they were wrong, as soon as he got to the battle the tide turned and Earth was saved. Then he went back in time and had to face them for a prolonged losing battle...and Starfleet Command was vindicated as he wasn't entirely "over it" after all.
They can do all the psych evaluations that they want but you'll never be able to predict every single problem. It doesn't matter the class or capability of the ship.
I know you hate Voyager, but Captain Ransom did more than enough damage just with his Nova Class science ship the Equinox.
Another thing of note is that the Captain isn't alone. He has a crew. Though as Picard demonstrated sometimes that crew isn't enough of a restraint. We don't even need to go into detail about Commodore Decker.
Remember that Maxwell wasn't operating in a vacuum either. His crew was going along with him, which should had them before a board of inquiry (we don't know what happened to them after that).
But don't over rely on diplomacy either. I'll follow Scotty's lead. No, I will not lower the screens, not until the captain tells me to.
Heh, you don't need to lower your shields to talk, but you don't need s cloak and a bfg to do that either.
And Picard did not destroy the Phoenix. He used a technical detail of the ship's shields and sensor interaction that allowed Chief O'Brien who was his former tactical officer and friend to beam over and talk (sing) him down from the ledge. The crazy thing is he even gave the ship's command codes to the Cardassians to take control of the ship's computer. And those Cardassian's still lost. Is the Galor superior to the Nebula in this game?
That's something that I always wonder about. Do Klingon and Romulan ships have an IFF that allows them to detect their fellow cloaked ships? It would be useful for coordination. It would also explain why you can see cloaked ships on your own side.
He didn't have to because he had those advantages, that and the Enterprise could track the Phoenix wherever it went. Maxwell realized his situation was hopeless. However if he had the ability to cloak, that might have changed. He could hunt Cardassians at will.
The situation with the Galor in game is Cryptic playing 'cool starship' card again. They were decent ships, but tended to be inferior to the latest Federation hulls. Not like what we have in the game.
Part of such a scenario wouldn't just be random. You'd have to figure out what their intentions were. That's how Sisko was able to figure out where Thomas Riker was taking the Defiant (that and a little help from Kira's sabotage).
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Riker had a specific target in mind. Maxwell, had a broader target selection to choose from, and unless Gul Macet was willing to spill the beans on what his probable targets were, they would have no idea what he was up to.
Imagine Thomas Riker with a Galaxy-X as well.
It's something they have to be concerned about with every ship. Whenever you come up with a faster ship, better shields. The Destiny novels had lots of covert ops trying to keep the Typhon Pact (an alliance of Romulan, Breen, and a few others) from getting the Quantum Slipstream, that is a game changer right there.
Clearly. Like the Defiant the Galaxy-X also has to decloak to strike.
True, but while the Defiant certainly has an impressive amount of firepower. It generally can't obliterate battleships in a single volley.
Indeed it turned out that it was inferior to spears and raw numbers.
Quantity over quality.
I don't think that the impact will be as severe as you say.
Perhaps, but all too often misconception causes people to act in a manner that is either self destructive, or destructive to what they hold dear. This is true for groups or societies as well.
It's not a boat. It's a ship.
Don't blame me. It is an official designated ship type...sort of.
Why would you need a small Starfleet? The Federation is huge. And the space they intend to explore is huge.
Sure it's possible that there have been hundreds of ships cancelled, mothballed (the Defiant), or just taken out of service. But even if half of everything that's ever been built between 2385 and 2385 is cancelled that's still 30,000 some odd starships built.
You would need the opposite. But there is no comprehensive list of ships, or assets, so we are left with educated guesses.
I actually did that. I like my warp core very clean.
I bet you use things that work like fuses and circuit breakers too. With all the power related disasters we see onboard I would think that they would do something about that.
I'm not talking about ships here and there I'm talking entire fleets. During the Dominion War they had a huge fleet protecting Earth and Betazed (when Betazed fell, their fleet was out of position on maneuvers, they didn't expect the Dominion to strike so deep).
Which says to me that either the Breen were incapable of doing more extensive damage due to damage inflicted by Starfleet and orbital defenses, or they had other things to worry about. Capturing Earth or completely devastating it would have been a major blow. Hitting SFC like that was significant, but it didn't take humans or Earth out of the fight. I don't remember them hitting the shipyards at mars, which would have been a crippling blow.
Get out of my head. You see you and me, we're eye to eye.
With Klingons when your rep is high enough, they start following you around. They start jumping into other fights with Negh'vars instead of Birds, but at a certain point, they want a one on one, instead of a with whole squadrons.
I know that joke. What's the difference between an Orion Merchant ship and a pirate ship? What? If you're armed it's a merchant ship, if you're not armed it's a pirate ship. I love that one.
Mt brother.
Heh, a queue of NPCs lining up to fight you. Imagine being followed around by a trail of enemy ships. A fight breaks out when someone tries to cut in.
Seriously though this would seriously help the endgame monotony.
I don't see it happening anytime though because it can't be monetized. *sigh*
Congratulations, you have managed to miss the point entirely.
The german navy was never a match for the Royal navy, and yet the brits went ballistic about letting bismark and co slip past their grip.
Disproportionate amount of military efforts were spend on sinking these ships. Why?
Because you do not let your enemy keep beatsticks like that.
The brits knew to keep their assets ready, because the bismark could have just as easily made a suicide run on london for example. That did bind a lot of forces.
Your initiative means little, in the long run.
All yoi achieve over time is whittle your own force down. The opponent does not need to defend everything, he just needs to defend what he needs to strike you down.
And you could not simply ignore or circumvent the opponents force concentration, because then we are back here:
welcome to fighting through established defensive setups. You are bleeding ships there. Do you want to have a large enemy taskforce poised to fall into your back or just go wreck your supply and reinforcement?
If being numerous was a surefire way to victory, many wars would have turned out differently.
Numbers are a variable in a wide selection of variables, not the end all.
I missed nothing.
You made my point for me. German superbatteship<British fleet Quality<Quantity
Good job.
The German navy didn't need need to match the Royal Navy. All it had to do was disrupt supply lines from the United States and Canada.
If the Bismark had gotten loose, it could have destroyed whole convoys with impunity. The supply convoys were vital to England.
Going to bombard London or the English coastline with no support would have been monumentally stupid. There wasn't too much more it could have accomplished over what the Luftwaffe did.
Initiative means a great deal. It lets you choose the battlefield and terms of engagement. Why attack strong points when you can attack soft targets or targets of opportunity, if your goal is to raid? If your goal is to destroy a target, you bring a sufficient amount of ships to accomplish the task taking into consideration enemy opposition.
If an opponent gets loose in your rear, they can wreak substantial havok.
Remember Starfleet's duty is to defend the Federation. You have to go and chase down the attacker and stop them. There is no option of traipsing off to inflict like damage to the enemy while there is an enemy fleet attacking Federation worlds. I would love to see someone tell the citizens of a Federation world that they are not important enough to defend. That Starfleet has more important things to do, like admire how awesome it's ships are parked somewhere else that's more important than their home, and their live mean nothing.
There are few better weapons for an enemy than inaction by one's own military forces.
As I pointed out earlier if you have a few superships, those become prime targets for first strikes. Those would be targets that are identified and located before any sort of campaign, and then taken out in a first strike.
Also, just because you see one fleet on a rampage doesn't mean they have committed everything to an attack. There could be multiple fleets on the move, and until they strike, you won't know about it.
A Galaxy-X can be overwhelmed by numbers, whether it's drawn to a battlefield of the enemies choosing, or it's attacked 'at anchor'. It's by no means invincible. it's only when it's on the offensive does it truly shine. Again, here is where having the initiative is important.
When fighting over interstellar distances, numbers mean a great deal.
Any sort of economics are used to justify any sort of ship building...They simple fail face to dirt
number if crew is used any way simply not supported in this game
Distance and endurance is used . simply not supported in this game
combat repair and supplies simply Fail.............simply fail the entire repair system is a joke
Resources are not used or needed in the game with the exception of the starbases and rep systems which are also a joke if you look at the requirements for ships and equipment
The Gal-X reboot is also a joke
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Any sort of economics are used to justify any sort of ship building...They simple fail face to dirt
number if crew is used any way simply not supported in this game
Distance and endurance is used . simply not supported in this game
combat repair and supplies simply Fail.............simply fail the entire repair system is a joke
Resources are not used or needed in the game with the exception of the starbases and rep systems which are also a joke if you look at the requirements for ships and equipment
I liked it better than Voyager. It was ok, though the Temporal War thing was kind of dumb. The Mirror Universe episodes were interesting.
The Temporal War myth arc flat out sucked. I'm not just saying that because I hate time travel either. My only beef with the Xindi Arc was that it was such a huge thing to insert into the history without any kind of precursor. If they had replaced the Xindi with the Romulans or a Romulan servitor race so you don't actually see the Romulans it would've been aces.
The entire last season was golden in my view except of course, These are the Voyages.
That was my point. It's really only limited use ship. (Unless you are going to shoot the one who took your woman, then it would be ideal :P)
It occurred to me that if you have warp 13 on one ship, why not on others?
Because as you said before, Starfleet does build limited use specialty ships. Are you aware of the old Federation Class? Franz Joseph stuff before he and Gene had their falling out. There's actually a design lineage and history for that configuration of ship.
As for the Warp 13 one would think that it's an innovation only possible with the three nacelle configuration. In the game and in the original AGT timeline, this was warp 13 in the 2390s, so compared to the modern period in game it would be one of the earliest Transwarp capable Starfleet vessels.
But doesn't that defeat the point of having it? Think about it. It's an offensive weapon who's potential can only be realized on the offense. (though against the Borg it might be more useful) It's not going to be cloaked all the time,and as long as it's not on alert, it has no shields either.
No. Remember this is built on the Galaxy frame. The cloak is just a bonus, it's not the whole story here. The stealth is for the surprise attack sure, but that's not all it can do. Dreadnaught means takes a licking and keeps on ticking. I'd say it's equally effective on defense, aren't you the one arguing it should be a tank? It is. And blindsiding any ship isn't easy. In the 24th century and beyond ship's shields tend to pop up as soon as an attack is detected. The point of a ship with capabilities like that is that you don't want to fight it at all.
As for the Klingons, I definitely would risk using a handful of cloaked BoP's to see about taking out a Galaxy-X while it is docked, under repair/refit, or just sitting idle. Same for the Romulans, though they would probably opt for something covert over brute force.
But Space docks have their own defenses to begin with. And hitting the space dock is a more valuable target than just destroying a single Dreadnaught. Furthermore, you would rotate. You don't just put the dreadnaught in dock off station and not have a relief ship.
It would be better in many ways, just to mount the spinal phaser on fixed defenses such as space stations, where you could dedicate a power system just for it. You could still have the deterrent factor, but without the loose cannon, or mailed fist issues.
How do you know they don't? Though you would have to fix multiple lances, since Starbases can't maneuver. And looking at that cannon it looks like it's big enough to have a dedicated power system. I'm telling you would I would slap a class 7 warp core into the base of that thing and call it a day.
The Terran Empire certainly would. Look back at history. The use of force or terror is often the tool of choice for a tyrant.
That's my point. Why would the Federation need such starship in the larger scheme of things. The only thing it does better than any other ship is to sneak up on a target and blow it out of space. For most of what the Federation does, this is unnecessary.
The Son'a: Yeah, they would deserve it, but I doubt the Federation council would sanction indisciminate Pew Pew. Other big starships would work though. I don't think the spinal phaser has a stun or disable setting.
But this isn't the Terran Empire. And it isn't going to be the Terran Empire.
Section 31 is a far larger threat to the Federation's reputation as a peaceful actor than any class of retrofitted dreadnaughts.
It would need such a ship because people are trying to kill us. And seriously, it doesn't need to sneak up on something to blow it out of the stars. The Treaty of Algeron is interesting though, apparently the Romulans were terrified of what Starfleet could do with a cloak.
And yes for most of what the Federation does, but if you're going to fight a war, fight it.
The Federation Council would certainly not utilize indiscriminate firing in any situation and Starfleet doesn't train their captains to do that.
You never know on that stun setting. The phaser is very precise. Remember in a Piece of the Action, when Kirk ordered the Enterprise to use the ship's phasers to stun an entire street of mobsters? There's no analog of a Howitzer with stungun or tear gas function. The Phaser Lance might be able to knock the EPS system completely offline without singing the hull.
You know if you look at it, it's clearly a sniper weapon. Looking at the damage normal Type X phasers can do, the Lance could be more about shield penetration. And armor penetration. And hull penetration. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a .01% power setting.
Depends on the group and what their goals are, as well as how the rest of a populace regards them.
Always.
It's a matter of threat potential and message. The Galaxy class are flexible ships, powerful, yes, but they also perform many other functions besides warfare. You can send a Galaxy class or most other ships to do pretty much anything. Most of the rest of civilized space recognizes that, and isn't unduly threatened when a Starfleet ship shows up. The Galaxy-X only has one purpose, and that is to blow things up.
Of course.
And it's still a Starfleet vessel. They would say, man Starfleet sure is strapping big guns on nowadays, this thing with the Borg/Klingons/whoever, must be giving them real problems. But again you're assuming that you're going to send a Galaxy-X on the same missions that you would send a Galaxy on. Discard what would you do about Maxwell, and think about Jellico when he forced that fleet of Cardassian ships out of the Nebula. Think about the Enterprise-D facing the Borg prior to Wolf 359.
It does have it's place.
Problem with the Ansata is that they had a means of attacking the ship, and with enough fighters, could have taken it over with a well coordinated attack...A ship with a cloak would have been an inviting target.
Riker would've self destructed it before letting that happen. But at this point you're just arguing that any ship with a cloak could be the same problem. If it was Negh'var it would be just as dangerous. Notice that the Federation isn't as worried about such things with enemies that can cloak on two major borders. That's because cloaks (barring the Broken bird the Scimitar) aren't infallible.
The Prytt weren't terrorists. They were another political entity on the planet in question. The very fact there was a Federation starship there at all was a threat to the Prytt. The Enterprise really had no business being there. The planet wasn't ready for admission. The Prytt were rightly justified in their fears of the Kes getting Federation backing. While the Enterprise itself wasn't necessarily an issue, a Galaxy-X could have been viewed by the xenophobic Prytt as a precursor to either invasion, subjugation, or destruction, and taken it upon themselves to attack the Kes before any alliance or Federation membership could be realized. One is just a big starship, the other is a weapon.
The kidnapping was a terrorist tactic however (though that's to be expected of isolationist fascists).
Then blame the Kes, they were the ones who invited them to evaluate their application for membership. The Prytt were only justified from their perspective. It was still a foolish move. Funny enough it's the opposite logic of the Ansata. The Ansata kidnapped Crusher and attacked the Enterprise for precisely the reason that the Prytt were wrong. They only drew more attention to themselves. If the situation wasn't resolved they were going to be guaranteeing more Starfleet interference in the near future. Fortunately for them this is the Federation who if you tell them to go away, will go away barring any other vital interests. Such a tactic would've virtually guaranteed their annihilation if it was the Klingons. That's not an issue of what starship, that was the Prytt's paranoia working against them.
Yes and no. It depends on the threat the ship represents. A covert operation or the network needed to pull off such a thing is difficult and expensive in both time and resources. The target would have to represent a shift in power, or a significant threat to make it worthy of such an operation. You are not going to blow that kind of effort on Mirandas, or even Nebulas.
Problem with using the E-D as an example is it was as much a character as the crew, and had plot armor. It would be bad for the show if the Enterprise went boom mid season.
Well the funny thing is the E-D had plot armor like a kunoichi in a video game. Lots of pleasing openings. Frankly it was too vulnerable some times. For the sake of plot.
A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is a shift in power in an area. It ain't that easy.
Historically Starfleet has been able to do that with a sufficiently large fleet of capable ships. Sending a warship to anyone under the guise of peace is basically waving a knife at them. I doubt the Klingons would see it as respect, many of them could take it as an insult that the Federation would send a warship to conduct any sort of negotiations. This is because the Federation frames themselves as peacemakers, diplomats, and explorers, not warriors. Most cultures understand that the Federation has military power without it being waved under their nose.
Well the perception for many people is that the Federation flies around warships anyway. It's the inverse of the Orion joke. If it's the Klingons that see a Galaxy class flying around it's a Federation Battlecruiser, if it's the Bynars they see a flying computer core, if it's the Romulans it's that little ship, if it's a peaceful society it's a science ship, if it's the Jem'Hadar all ships are targets. What the ship is, is more about what the society thinks about you. I wouldn't send a G-X on a first contact mission for instance, that's not the initial impression you want to make. On the other hand if they were still around the Husnock may think that the Galaxy-X is pathetically underpowered.
The Armistice with Japan was signed on board the USS Missouri. Keep in mind that the Federation does not have that many dedicated diplomatic vessels. All Starfleet vessels must ultimately be all things regardless of their class.
I think you have a gross misunderstanding of Klingon culture in that regard. It's like the Krogan. Even their ambassadors have to be brutal warriors. Look at S'Tass. Jem Hadar attack, tear them apart with teeth and claws. I'll let the the Commander in Chief speak on it.
C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.
The Klingons sent their Chancellor on board their top Heavy Warship at the time. If you respect a Klingon do not speak softly, speak loudly and directly, say it to their face. (and with your chest out.). Don't cruise in with all of your weapons armed. I would much rather have them come aboard my ship to a diplomatic function and say, "This is a fine warship." Then have the whole worthless garbage scow discussion. General Chang was excited to meet who he felt was the Federation's greatest warrior. You say they would take it as an insult if you sent a warship, they would actually take it as an insult if you send anything less than a warship. These are the guys that during their civil wars they're blasting each other out of the sky in the day and then partying til the sun comes up with the guys they were shooting at the same night.
Three Defiants can do that just as well as a single Galaxy-X will. So for that matter will a normal Galaxy class. You don't need a cloaking BFG to get that message across. If you do, then they are not looking at your military situation as a whole, or seeing your society as weak. If that is the case, then I doubt the cloaking bfg will help. You will still be seen as weak. It's a matter of mindset, and cultural attitude.
I don't think three Defiants can dismantle a Negh'var like that. (The Regents ship on the Mirror side doesn't count it's one of the largest ships in the franchise and dwarfs our side's Negh'var.)
That works both ways. If they've decided that you're a military expansionist power then whether you're using a dozen little Defiants or one giant Galaxy they're still gonna be scared of you.
Mutual Assured Destruction only worked because both sides were afraid of pulling the trigger, were within reach of each other, and shared the same planet. It doesn't work in the context of the Star Trek universe, in my opinion, unless each side was willing to obliterate whole planets, like with the planet killer, somethig that Starfleet abhors.
The Klingons abhor destroying whole planets like that as well, but that doesn't mean you don't keep your fleets strong. Though I used the example of nukes, Strategic Deterrence has many subtle levels.
Lol
I am still waiting for mine. :mad:
You know, this review of the Bortas really made me wonder on the subject of a Klingon Dreadnaught. It is long but I dig Umbreona's reviews, he's pretty thorough and knowledgeable.
No, it's not invincible. Think of it as an early submarine. It can choose when and where to engage, and when to break off an engagement.
When it does chose to engage, it can obliterate almost any ship with a volley from the spinal phaser before the other ship could respond. You would have to counter it with a fleet, expecting to lose some ships. Quite frankly it doesn't need any other weapons to be considered a weapon of mass destruction. That spinal phaser is a hugely powerful direct fire weapon (we have no idea what it would do directed against a planet). As for being one for one with the Scimitar, the Scimitar would be torn apart by the spinal phaser, should it ever land a hit (remember that it passed unabated through a fully shielded Negh'var ), the problem being finding it to fire.
Well the cloak is a direct analog for a Submarine diving so that is the comparison. Well we know that a Mk X phaser can drill several kilometers into a planet's crust. But I don't see it cracking the crust like an Eclipse class' superlaser.
As Reynold said, a single ship tying up a fleet is a tremendous edge in a battle, especially if they can't destroy it easily or quickly.
Yes, but running the ship into a planet would end their reign of terror, solving the issue on it's own.
That means little to the billions dead.
He may very well have been right about what the cardassians were up to. That was no justification for his actions though. He did exactly the same as the Cardassians who killed his family, a preemptive strike to destroy a perceived weapons depot.
The episode made it clear he was right. That was followed up later with Chain of Command.
But he had become exactly what he hated. He who fights monsters.
If he had access to a Galaxy-X he would have been virtually unstoppable, and thousands would have died, from his assault.
To your point, that already happened. The Cardassians couldn't stop him, and Picard used diplomacy in the guise of a trusted friend to put an end to it. That would work on a Nebula or a Galaxy-X.
Remember that Maxwell wasn't operating in a vacuum either. His crew was going along with him, which should had them before a board of inquiry (we don't know what happened to them after that).
The crew was actually backing his play. They believed that they were acting in the best interests of defending the Federation. That said, I'm 100% positive that there was a round of court-martials for everyone.
Heh, you don't need to lower your shields to talk, but you don't need s cloak and a bfg to do that either.
No, but they come in handy.
He didn't have to because he had those advantages, that and the Enterprise could track the Phoenix wherever it went. Maxwell realized his situation was hopeless. However if he had the ability to cloak, that might have changed. He could hunt Cardassians at will.
The situation with the Galor in game is Cryptic playing 'cool starship' card again. They were decent ships, but tended to be inferior to the latest Federation hulls. Not like what we have in the game.
He was hunting Cardassians at will. Even on the Enterprise's leash he went off to hunt them again. Maxwell's not the best example though because he didn't go the full Shane, he had a point to prove and still thought he was being the hero. Which is why he was trying to validate his case to Picard instead of firing on the Enterprise so he could continue his crusade. His vendetta clouded his judgment but he was acting on a legitimate concern.
Agreed. If it was the Keldon class I could maybe understand, but the Galor was shown to be below the Nebula and the Galaxy in strength. We can't even say that they're major upgrades since they're surplus Cardassian ships sold by Ferengi.
Riker had a specific target in mind. Maxwell, had a broader target selection to choose from, and unless Gul Macet was willing to spill the beans on what his probable targets were, they would have no idea what he was up to.
Imagine Thomas Riker with a Galaxy-X as well.[/QUOTE]
Actually they did have an idea what he was up to. Basic detective work. He was hitting specific cargo ships running that high power sensor jamming. That was a start. They did you a little detective work in those episodes.
Doubtless if the Maquis had access to a top tier Starfleet Dreadnaught then they certainly would've gone buck wild on the Cardassians. And Starfleet and the Cardassian military would've worked together building tachyon nets and sharing information until it was found and until it was many people would've died.
That's a risk with any ship. You don't not build a ship because of those risks otherwise no one anywhere would build weapons of any kind.
True, but while the Defiant certainly has an impressive amount of firepower. It generally can't obliterate battleships in a single volley.
I don't think we're going to reach a consensus or understanding on this, even though I'm enjoying the conversation. We both have valid points that are fully applicable in different situations and different species and cultures.
Quantity over quality.
Starfleet has always practiced quality over quantity.
Though in the case of the Yanks, that was more a case of the victory of suicidal determination.
Perhaps, but all too often misconception causes people to act in a manner that is either self destructive, or destructive to what they hold dear. This is true for groups or societies as well.
That's for damn sure. But that's the risk with showing up with any kind of guns. Which after getting shot at a few times Captain Archer wasn't having that anymore.
Don't blame me. It is an official designated ship type...sort of.
In the modern navy, a boat is smaller craft (submarines count) a full size capitol vessel, is a ship.
You would need the opposite. But there is no comprehensive list of ships, or assets, so we are left with educated guesses.
But the educated guesses indicate a very large fleet spread out over a very large volume of space.
I bet you use things that work like fuses and circuit breakers too. With all the power related disasters we see onboard I would think that they would do something about that.
All consoles that would explode shunt the excess energy into the local inertial dampening field. And there's a film over the touch consoles that keeps exploding consoles from spraying their operators with shrapnel.
Which says to me that either the Breen were incapable of doing more extensive damage due to damage inflicted by Starfleet and orbital defenses, or they had other things to worry about. Capturing Earth or completely devastating it would have been a major blow. Hitting SFC like that was significant, but it didn't take humans or Earth out of the fight. I don't remember them hitting the shipyards at mars, which would have been a crippling blow.
That was the point. They got torn apart by the Sector 001 defense fleet and only managed to get a few fighters down to San Fran. It was basically a slap in the face announcing their arrival.
The Klingons hit the shipyards on their side, a good little mission, though I feel it made Starfleet's security measures look dumb as rocks.
Heh, a queue of NPCs lining up to fight you. Imagine being followed around by a trail of enemy ships. A fight breaks out when someone tries to cut in.
Seriously though this would seriously help the endgame monotony.
I don't see it happening anytime though because it can't be monetized. *sigh*
On the subject of respect, I am sick to death of the damn Breen talking TRIBBLE to you in every mission. "Did you forget that time we hit Starfleet Headquarters?" That's their one. That's their one. They don't like to talk about the fact that they didn't get a single ship back from that mission. They don't like to talk about the fact that they lost the war or that they picked the wrong side. They don't like to talk about how they were clearly infiltrated by the Founders like suckers? :mad:
Actually I can see that being a set of accolades. Like the Borg Unimatrix ships and the Capitol ship accolades. Once you get to tier five while running a mission you have a chance of being attacked by Captain such and such Son of Whoever of the House of Whatever. Say one elite Klingon Captain per Sector Block. Who has come to test your mettle in battle. Maybe you get a special drop or something if you win. If you beat them all you get an accolade titled White Whale of the Empire or the Greatest Warrior/Song Ever Told. Get attacked in Gamma Orionis by a Klingon general in a Bortas. Each one should present a different challenge like a B'Rel Retrofit that keeps cloak firing on you, or a Vo'quv with its flight wing of B'Rels (by yourself instead of with a team like in Cure Found), a Raptor drain build.
And have one for each rep and enemy species that makes sense, so it would be, Klingon, Hirogen, Gorn, Tal Shiar, and Tholian.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I was playing the new Mirror Universe event, good, but man is that Elite OP, but the hilarious thing is that I got 86'd by the USS London, a Terran Galaxy Dreadnaught....but it killed me with a Gravity Well :rolleyes:.
Which means the Terran G-X has a LtCdr science slot. :lmao
That's classic.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I was playing the new Mirror Universe event, good, but man is that Elite OP, but the hilarious thing is that I got 86'd by the USS London, a Terran Galaxy Dreadnaught....but it killed me with a Gravity Well :rolleyes:.
Which means the Terran G-X has a LtCdr science slot. :lmao
That's classic.
LoL, I'm putting money on that being in the next lock box as one of the mirror secondary ships.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
Has anyone else had issues with changing the look of the Exploration Cruisers after the revamp? Ever since they did, the only skins I have available to custimize it with are the Galaxy and Venture class. The Noble, Celestial, and Envoy classes are missing for me.
Has anyone else had issues with changing the look of the Exploration Cruisers after the revamp? Ever since they did, the only skins I have available to custimize it with are the Galaxy and Venture class. The Noble, Celestial, and Envoy classes are missing for me.
The Noble class is an option for the Assault Cruiser.
The Celestial and Envoy class skins are only available for the tier 4 (Captain rank) Exploration Cruiser and c-store Refit. It has always been that way. The tier 5 Exploration Cruiser Retrofit has never had them.
I'm guessing it's because the tier 4 versions can't use saucer separation and they haven't worked the Envoy and Celestial skins to work with it for the tier 5 ship. It would be nice if they could make those skins available for the tier 5 Galaxy, and the Dreadnaught, though the Dreadnaught would probably need some artwork for the third nacelle, on top of making it work with saucer separation.
Comments
I've never actually paid attention to the Kumari in action, so I'll have to look it up before I respond.
That said, along the lines of adapting existing technology and programming, what do you think of the idea of saucer separation altering the boff seating like with the Dyson Science destroyers?
The 2 Piece Console Set Bonus grants a +2 Turn rate, not the previously mentioned +1
~CaptainSmirk
Sweet. Thanks. I was hoping the blog was wrong when I found in game it actually gave +2.
Edit: "Details are subject to change." I guess so, huh? lol.
Well now....that's interesting. That will put the turn rate in the Excelsior range, a turn rate I found that fits me perfectly.
Indeed
That was just an example of mitigation (and not a great one, I admit). To completely overcome the heavy power drain, you would need something like the plasmotic leach, emergency power to weapons, Aux2batt, or the Marion duty officer that mitigates weapon drain on directed energy modulation.
With the first model, if power starts at 125, then each shot would drain 25 power (being one fifth of 125), thus putting you at zero at the end of the cycle. Each shot fired in the cycle, would be independent of the other as far as hit, damage, crit, and crit damage calculation is concerned. Power management would be essential to keep the weapon's damage from dropping off too steeply. That includes not firing other energy weapons. Damage for each shot is based off what your power was at the start of the cycle (here that is 125).
The second model would work similar, but because your damage and energy drain are static (keep the drain at 50 for example), you would need to keep your weapon power from hitting zero to maintain fire (5 shots max). Here also, hit, damage, crit, crit damage is calculated separately for each shot.
The first model is more flexible, but would have lower damage per shot than the second model, which has higher damage but the potential to not be able to continue fire due to lack of weapon power. Both could lock you out of firing other weapons, or perhaps just energy weapons.
I am not certain what a fair cooldown (if one is needed) would be good, but I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty to forty seconds.
In this respect, heavy engineering capability becomes an asset.
Also........warp 13 plz.
Oh yes, I had forgotten about Prometheus. Good point. I loathed Voyager, and tend to forget things that happened in it.
Having multiple ships for the same cost of having one big one is more efficient for Starfleet from the standpoint that it usually finds itself short of available starships in critical situation. Having a big expensive ship in the wrong place at the wrong time effectively renders that ship meaningless.
Yes, and the same problems with that would happen here too. Whether or not Starfleet would want to start an arms race wouldn't matter. One would happen anyway, as the Klingon Empire, the Dominion, Romulans (though as of now, they have the Scimitar), or anyone else with the ability to maintain a fleet would see that as a threat, and begin their own super heavy construction, just like in your example. Even though they are at war, the Klingon Empire is currently using pretty standard weapons and tactics. With an arms race, you would see more heavy batlecruisers, and new battleships. (Not this silly "the KDF makes us no money so they don't get anything" mentality Cryptic has, which is a separate discussion.)
Starfleet, and the Federation at large, wants to avoid the appearance of being an expansionist military power. It's part of why there was so much flak over calling the Defiant an escort. With something like a dreadnaught, the problem is exacerbated. The Federation doesn't need a symbol of pride or national power.
The temptation to use such a weapon would be too great for some officers not to use it. "If you have a 'big stick' you should use it". Remember Benjamin Maxwell from TNG: The wounded? Imagine him with a Galaxy-X. People being what they are, he wouldn't be an isolated case of hate or anger taking the helm.
Also, for not being a battleship, the Pheonix certainly did number on the Cardassians.
You don't need super weapons for strategic deterence, they certainly help, but they are not necessary. What they do is make everyone very nervous, and become a trap, that snares powers in an arms race.
As for the cloak, I just give it a pass, since I consider the Galaxy-X to be a fish out of water.
Which is why I enjoy discussions. Seeing other points of view can allow you to see a bigger picture, or what you have overlooked (like me and the Prometheus).
Temporal mechanics give me a headache.
It's more of a "one gun wonder" in my view, think of it as a really large gunboat with a really large gun. Siege ship, gun boat, or maybe even monitor might have been a better term. It's a 25th century artillery piece.
That's quite a bit of really good information when you take a look at that archive. I had no idea that existed. :eek:
For the registry numbers issue, I think that there was no effort to catalog all the canon named ships, so there was no official guide for people to look at that had ship names and registry number. There were a couple of instances where you had ship names showing up in other episodes with different registry numbers, as I recall. The lack of a database for ship names and registry numbers made it hard to designate new ships in later stories. By inflating registry numbers you can dodge that point somewhat. So rather than Starfleet having that many hulls according to registry numbers, I would chalk that up to continuity problems. In universe it could easily be a matter of cancelling construction plans for ships already slated for construction, which would have a designation number. Any new constructions after that would have higher registry numbers. So in theory you could have any number of unrealized projects that eat up those registry numbers, but not actual starships.
But as stated in that information there was never a hard number given, so within reason, any number could be valid.
To me, if they had that many ships available, they would have been pulling everything they could and sending them at max speed to throw into battle. To have ships at your borders would be pointless if they lost the war.
That's what annoys me the most. It can't do the one thing that made it awesome in the brief time we saw it.
No kidding, there is so much unrealized potential outside of shooting stuff. In your example after the enemy scatters and leaves, the mission could change to rescue, repair, or resupply or something.
That's a fair sight right there. Certainly more reason to use that set than more tank.
While that's great if you're running a beam boat with 8 beams and want to spam FAW, is that really optimal to need that to use the lance effectively? If we have it at 125 that should be a good ground. Although adding all that is terrifying.
I would accept shutting down other energy weapons to keep the lance from having so much power drop off that the shots become less effective over time. As I see it the narrow firing arc is a trade off for the power.
As for the cooldown if we want this to be the primary weapon then a firing time under a minute has to be the case, I'd say 45 seconds is the sweet spot. That prevents spam but is fast enough that you can set up your strategy around it. Especially if you're not going to give the ship a battle cloak. There's no escape factor, the cloak is purely an opening ambush, so be continuously surprise attacked isn't a factor.
I'm not gonna lie, Innate warp 13= me using the Adapted MACO set
The Defiant was also in production by the end of the series.
Voyager, Voyager, Voyager. I understand the complaints, but Voyager did have some great high points, and no I'm not talking about the valleys of Seven of Nine's dermoplast body suit.
I'm not saying they wouldn't build multiple smaller ships for the cost of one, I'm saying that it's not more efficient to dismantle and repurpose the parts from a perfectly viable ship to build more from it. Especially since generally speaking, a Galaxy-X is equal in deterrent force to a few Defiants. That's Starfleet's thinking because there have been plenty of times when they've sent the Enterprise to an area to quell people getting rowdy.
The issue is there already is one in effect. The Romulans started it with he Scimitar. They wouldn't start the arms race, but they're not going to sit back and lose one either. We've got running up on a trillion citizens to protect.
And you're right the Avenger and the Mogh are certainly prime examples.
Honestly I'm wondering what a Klingon counter to the G-X would look like. Honestly that's what I'd say the Bortas is.
I'm not saying you're incorrect, but nor does the Federation want to appear weak either.
That said, the Enterprise itself, is a symbol of pride and national power, that's what a Flagship is all about. Look at this great thing that we built. That said I do agree that having one in every player's garage is clearly an acceptable break from reality, as Starfleet certainly wouldn't build an entire fleet of them, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't build a few. One in each major fleet or maybe even wing.
I feel you've nullified your own point here. Every single Federation Starship, is a weapon of mass destruction, every phaser a risk. They've been telling us this since the Original Series, where we had Captain Kirk himself threatening to glass the surface of a planet, where a Captain looking for the fountain of youth gave phasers to communists with longevity.
Look at what Thomas Riker was able to accomplish with a hijacked Defiant.
Any ship can be abused.
But as much as Starfleet is an exploratory agency, they're also the first and last line of defense. They've got to be ready. Worf could kill Jm'pok next year and we'll be able to restore the Khitomer Accords, but we still need to be able to take on the Borg and the Iconians. And Starfleet will still explore. I loved that blog that showed Operation Return in operation with a Starfleet Science ship out at the border of the Delta Quadrant. We can do both.
It's an outlier.
Absolutely.
Siege Ship works for me too. Gun boat rubs against my Navy sensibilities.
I love Memory Alpha.
The Prometheus that I cited is an example of messed up registry numbers. The one on the hull is lower than the one the MSD and the Plaque. It was an issue of a placeholder number vs the actual one. Mike Okuda realized it was too low (the one on the hull is lower than Voyagers), the MSD is the accurate one.
While that's true, I look at them as construction registry numbers, I don't think Starfleet has anywhere near that many cancelled constructions. They have a truly stupendous amount of space to cover just for the Federation and then they're exploring well beyond their own borders. That requires a LOT of hardware.
No. The Federation has lots of friends, but also plenty of enemies. You can't just leave yourself open to attack from the Tzenkethi, the Romulans (before they entered the war), the Tholians, the So'na. If it takes a year to get any ship from one side of the Federation to the other you can't just leave one border open and assume that that's going to be fine. If you have the Dominion on one side, and there's a Borg incursion on the other, you have to already have forces in place to deal with that.
Starfleet learned that lesson well, the Borg incursion of 2367 took place when the Federation had a long period of peace (at least from major war) and their deep space programs were in full gear. They could only get 39 starships together to defend the capitol.
OOOH OOOH OOH OOH (jumping up and down)
Then the rescue mission could turn into a medical ground mission like what was it? Cold Comfort? The Breen mission where you had to help with the medical triage unit and where you met Tran. But in this case it would be like an engine repair mission. Or you have to go hunt down the Orion ships so you can rescue the people they kidnapped into slavery.
The beauty being you wouldn't have the option to get that mission if you don't have the rep.
And I don't know about you, but I'm thinking about things like the Tau Dewa Patrol mission, so these things are still counting towards your percentage. The Tal Shiar mission leads to infiltrating a Tal Shiar base and stopping people from being brainwashed.
And here's another thing. You come across an Orion slaver or Nausicaan raider. Where's their since of self preservation? If they run and then you hunt them down, they know they can't win, so why wouldn't they accept arrest? Two years in a Federation rehab colony and they can be on their way. There are plenty of non warrior races that are good with going to prison versus dying for nothing.
"firing a massive phaser beam out of the Spinal Phaser Lance, obliterating the KDF Vessel with one powerful shot, and speeding through the debris with 3 nacelles on its back. Such a strong scene has certainly remained one of the most memorable in all of TNG lore."
After re watching that episode it actually took 5 possibly 6 Shots to obliterate the KDF vessel
.... even though I don't agree with the Gal X being in the game since it was from a Hypothetical future and will most likely never exist, they should still get the facts straight
You're not nitpicking on that, as it's been mentioned and discussed already. I counted five. I would actually love a five shot like that that fires under once a minute.
And just go back a few pages if you want to see the debate on whether an anti-time future ship should be in game. Keep in mind that we saw the Negh'var for the first time in that future as well. They should add the option to remove those under wing segments on the Negh'var on that note.
The same could be said of the Vesta.
The only future Federation starship that I never want to see again is the Enterprise-J. I personally hate it.
You wouldn't need all of those things, one or two would suffice. With the engineering capacity it has, you would have several options available to you on how to get there. Having all of those though would be really nice.
That works for me.
You can do that with any ship though. When you put that set on the Galaxy-X you should have a plaid border appear around the edges of your screen when you go to warp.
Not even Jeri Ryan could make Voyager watchable for me. My reaction to Voyager...
The Galaxy-X is only a deterrent if it can be brought to a flashpoint in time to be useful, just like a loaded gun is only useful if you can reach it.
Having more ships available is a better deterrent than having a few super ships. You can cover more areas, and still have your deterrent, without needing a super weapon.
Sending a Galaxy-X to go deal with any internal disturbance, such as a riot, civil discord, terrorism, protests, could easily end up backfiring. Here it would appear as a mailed fist. The situation that Starfleet wants to resolve now would be framed as "do it our way, or else" for anyone involved.
In the case of protesters, no matter what any negotiators had to say, the only thing that the protestors would see is the super weapon in the background. Imagine how well a report of the USS BFG arriving at planet Somewhere to deal with a mass student protest would go over in the Federation at large? Not very well I would imagine. It would become a symbol of repression almost right away. It would be a liability rather than an asset.
As for terrorists, what can this ship do to terrorists who are planet bound that another cannot? Depending on what the terrorist's goals are, you run the risk of making them appear sympathetic against the backdrop of a mailed fist.
Employing it in anything other that an offensive military capacity would up the ante, whereas another ship could deal with a situation without appearing as a threat.
Another problem with having a super weapon like that is that it becomes a first strike target for an aggressor. Espionage or covert operations here becomes a weapon of choice, something a military asset such as the Galaxy-X wouldn't be able to protect itself against. You would have to take additional measures to protect them against such a threat. This would mean you would have to dedicate more resources to protect an already resource intensive asset.
Problem is that by giving in to the temptation to answer it with an equally destructive ship, one with no real purpose other than that, Starfleet loses the mantle of peaceful explorers and diplomats. It now devolves into a military pissing contest.
I am still waiting. :mad:
The Bortasqu' is a flagship, like the Odyssey. So far the KDF doesn't have a real dreadnaught.
The KDF NPC dreadnaught is the Vo'quv.
Same problem here. The Galaxy is a multirole ship, and can be used for pretty much anything. Since it's a flagship, anywhere you send it gives that mission an air of importance, without the implicit threat that a Galaxy-X would imply.
It's a matter of degree. You can kill someone with a toaster oven, but that doesn't make them a deadly weapon. Same with a starship. Any armed starship can level a planet, but that same ship can be countered by other starships. The problem is that the Galaxy-X outstrips any other Federation ship in terms of striking power, and coupled with it's speed, and and ability to cloak, it is an ideal terror weapon. It's perfect for someone with ill intent in mind.
Again, imagine Benjamin Maxwell with a Galaxy-X. He would be unstoppable. He could strike at will with impunity, and destroy pretty much all cardassian space assets with ease and no one would be able to stop him. For him, the Cardassians had no civilian space infrastructure, and everything was a fair target. The only way he was stopped was that Picard was able to find him, catch up to him, and was able to destroy his ship, and everyone on board.
If Kirk had actually done that, Starfleet could have prevented it from happening again by sending other ships to stop him. If he had cloak, that would have been impossible.
The Defiant, while an amazing little ship, could have been destroyed by the Keldon class ships it encountered, and would have been, if not for outside intervention.
The communists with phasers isn't on the same scale as a starship with a cloak and BFG.
A Galaxy-X isn't necessary for any of that. It would be useful certainly, but the drawbacks, I think, would be too great for Starfleet. Other ships can deal those threats. I don't know how much more useful the Galaxy-X would be than another ship vs. the guys who strike from shadows with proxies, and viruses.
Of the square peg variety. One that Cryptic has chosen to hammer in, with the 'Cool Starship' mallet.
Yeah, it might be a tad too heavy to be considered a traditional gunboat, but it might be considered a Big Freaking Gunboat. :P
Me too. It's an amazing library of Trek stuff.
If you look at the entirety of Starfleet's history, it is possible to have any number of cancelled programs. Remember that Starfleet loves to build new classes for everything. So there is more than likely a whole slew of unrealized ship construction, and construction programs, due to changes in leadership, need, political situation, designs with flaws only discovered after the prototype was built, designs falling out of favor...etc.
They would even build a new class for a warpcore with a sneeze protection buffer.
If it meant the Federation was destroyed, those borders would be worthless. If that happened, then the other powers would certainly take advantage and scoop up anything that remained. Ships here and there are not going to stop an incursion in force. They have to be concentrated, which goes back to my assertion that if they can concentrate them like that, then they certainly would vs a force that would destroy the heart of the Federation.
Exactly.
Your Tal Shiar example could fit under T4 Espionage. If you don't have that rank, it won't show up.
It would also work for Marauding on the KDF side, where higher ranks could net you more goods. At rank 4 your guys would even know where the target's crew would keep the stuff that their ship's security missed. Also opportunities for plunder in ground missions (not the normal loot drops you find) would be nice.
Your ship enters a system with rank 4 military, and and anything there that is less than a fleet leaves, or becomes much more willing to cooperate.
Unless it's Klingon or Hirogen then it will attack you because you are awesome.
That reminds me of the joke I saw in the Starfleet Battles Orion materials.
"What is the difference between an Orion pirate, and an Orion merchant?"
The difference is in how much firepower the other guys have. He's a Pirate, if he has more firepower than you, and a merchant if he has less.
Imagine a mission where you enter a system that has reports of pirate activity. You fly in and come up on an unidentified ship or ships in system, and are scanned by them.
Orion captain 1: "Scan that ship and identify it."
Orion crewmember A: "Captain, it's the USS Sunshine, Registry NCC-942014. A Federation Galaxy Class Cruiser."
Orion Captain 1: "Hmm, we have enough ships to deal with a Galaxy class. Any more information on it?"
Orion crewmember A: "Yes Captain. Every ship that has engaged her, has either been destroyed or captured. She has also destroyed several small fleets. Rumor has it that 'sunshine' in the human language means 'will kick the screaming TRIBBLE out of you'."
Orion Captain 1: "Right, we are harmless and peaceful armed merchants, send that to the other ships."
Orion crewmember B: "Message sent, Captain 2 is onscreen."
Orion Captain 2: "Wait, we outnumber this guy, and have enough firepower to destroy them!"
Orion Captain 1: "I am sure that's what all the other ship's that he has defeated thought too. I am leaving, and you should too...unless you like the idea of a heroic demise, or a Federation prison."
Orion ships 1, 2, and 3 start emitting freighter transponder codes, and head out system, at top speed.
Also: I dislike the Enterprise-J immensely.
You forget that while several assets combined assets roled into one do inded decrease your area coverage,it also means that your opponents forces get equally limited.
Yes, one could outmaneuver the few superships and achieve breakthroughs on a larger front, congrats to that btw.
But would one mind us sending said superships straight down your homeworld?
Oh, you didnt place assets in range to intercept and did not make destroying our superships a priority.
K. Have fun fighting that protracted war with our smaller fleet that can fight in a position of defense close to home. . . we are just quickly demolishing your infrastructure. Sorry.
True enough. If anyone is still reading this thread and the other discussing it, if you're so unwilling to alter the Boff setup think about rebuilding the Lance.
In that case we'll need an Emergency Brake Console.
Voyager had some truly good moments. It just had worse low points. What's your feeling one Enterprise? I liked it overall.
The same can be said of any ship or collection of ships.
Look at Battle Group Omega. They're going to be extremely useful in the battle to stop the Scimitar....if they would've been there. We won't discuss the strategic blunder of ever flying through the Bassen Rift at any time in history.
But you don't send the Galaxy-X to flashpoints. You send the Prometheus, the Defiant. That said, the Galaxy-X in All Good Things did have transwarp so for all intents and purposes it may have been the fastest in the fleet too.
But you station the the Galaxy-X at the already serious problem spots. For instance, they have one stationed with the Special Task Force Omega fleet guarding the Transwarp conduit out of Gamma Orionis. I would have one stationed at Utopia Planitia (let's see the Klingons hit the yards now.) The point of a deterrent isn't that you send it where it needs to be, that's an interceptor; the deterrent is something you place where you don't want your enemies to ever dare to go.
What despot would send a Galaxy-X to deal with an internal dispute? This is the United Federation of Planets not the Galactic Empire. You would definitely send a traditional Galaxy especially if it's a member or allied world. Now if it's a dealing with the Son'a then I'm going to send a Galaxy-X.
That is any terrorist group. Look at the incident in "Attached" with the Kes and the Prytt, or the Ansata in the "High Ground". They saw the Galaxy class as exactly the same thing the big gun doesn't matter it's still a ship more powerful than you.
As someone who has served on the big target ship before, let me say that that's always a concern, but it isn't as easy as it would seem. Despite the number of terrorist attacks the Big E-D endured. If using covert operations to take out starships was as easy as you say, then it would be the primary method of combating starships anyway.
I disagree entirely. You need to be able to make sure that a war will be costly enough in order to get some people to the table. And you would send a different ship to do the negotiations depending on who you were dealing with. If I'm negotiating with Klingons I'm sending my biggest gun as a matter of respect. The Romulans I might not. If the species has a culture more in line with the Vulcans I may send a science vessel instead.
But Starfleet doesn't give up the position of respect and diplomacy because they're able to defend themselves. If they come off as weak to some people then they may decide "Why should we negotiate when we can just take what we want?"
Militaries always have their pissing contests, but the diplomats need to see past that to their work anyway. Nuclear deterrence worked as a strategy precisely because both sides actually could annihilate each other. And the diplomacy said, "let's not." Seriously, I think we can agree that if any faction would have dreadnaughts with giant guns it would be the KDF. Unless they can't figure out how a Disruptor Lance would work. Hell that's the Federation right there, "Spinal lance". Klingons would call it a damn heavy cannon and be done with it.
Maybe they saw the LtCdr tac boff slot and weren't threatened.
Well the Galaxy-X clearly has a different mission profile than the Galaxy. You place the Galaxy-X either where either you need something protected, or you send it where the situation has already deteriorated.
Wait wait wait. That's not incorrect, but the Galaxy-X isn't invincible. It's tough, but that doesn't mean that it can't be brought down. This isn't the Krenim Temporal Weapon Ship or even the Scimitar. We're not talking about a cloaking Death Star here. It's still very much a ship to ship or Ship to starbase unit. You're talking about it in terms like a biogenic weapon or it being equipped with Isolytic Subspace Weaponry. There's a huge breadth, a HUGE breadth between an extremely powerful ship to ship combatant and a weapon of mass destruction. If we're looking at it as say an answer to the Scimitar even, it still doesn't come close. It's not like they answered one to one. The Federation isn't fielding Thalaron weaponry or developing Omega molecule torpedoes.
You can't make an accounting for crazy Captains. To heck with commanding a Galaxy-X, we could get a suicidal captain who locks their ship on a course at warp speed into a planet of people who murdered his wife or child, it's still gonna be something horrible.
I find it interesting how Star Trek has treated the "insane" Captain especially in TNG.
Maxwell, went off the grid and started destroying Cardassian ships and facilities. In the end he was disgraced and removed from command. But....he was actually correct about the Cardassian's activities.
The same happened with Picard in First Contact, Starfleet was concerned that he was going to nut up and lose his ability to command effectively against the Borg, in which they were wrong, as soon as he got to the battle the tide turned and Earth was saved. Then he went back in time and had to face them for a prolonged losing battle...and Starfleet Command was vindicated as he wasn't entirely "over it" after all.
They can do all the psych evaluations that they want but you'll never be able to predict every single problem. It doesn't matter the class or capability of the ship.
I know you hate Voyager, but Captain Ransom did more than enough damage just with his Nova Class science ship the Equinox.
Another thing of note is that the Captain isn't alone. He has a crew. Though as Picard demonstrated sometimes that crew isn't enough of a restraint. We don't even need to go into detail about Commodore Decker.
But don't over rely on diplomacy either. I'll follow Scotty's lead. No, I will not lower the screens, not until the captain tells me to.
And Picard did not destroy the Phoenix. He used a technical detail of the ship's shields and sensor interaction that allowed Chief O'Brien who was his former tactical officer and friend to beam over and talk (sing) him down from the ledge. The crazy thing is he even gave the ship's command codes to the Cardassians to take control of the ship's computer. And those Cardassian's still lost. Is the Galor superior to the Nebula in this game?
That's something that I always wonder about. Do Klingon and Romulan ships have an IFF that allows them to detect their fellow cloaked ships? It would be useful for coordination. It would also explain why you can see cloaked ships on your own side.
Part of such a scenario wouldn't just be random. You'd have to figure out what their intentions were. That's how Sisko was able to figure out where Thomas Riker was taking the Defiant (that and a little help from Kira's sabotage).
It's something they have to be concerned about with every ship. Whenever you come up with a faster ship, better shields. The Destiny novels had lots of covert ops trying to keep the Typhon Pact (an alliance of Romulan, Breen, and a few others) from getting the Quantum Slipstream, that is a game changer right there.
Clearly. Like the Defiant the Galaxy-X also has to decloak to strike. Indeed it turned out that it was inferior to spears and raw numbers.
I don't think that the impact will be as severe as you say.
It's not a boat. It's a ship.
Why would you need a small Starfleet? The Federation is huge. And the space they intend to explore is huge.
Sure it's possible that there have been hundreds of ships cancelled, mothballed (the Defiant), or just taken out of service. But even if half of everything that's ever been built between 2385 and 2385 is cancelled that's still 30,000 some odd starships built.
I actually did that. I like my warp core very clean.
I'm not talking about ships here and there I'm talking entire fleets. During the Dominion War they had a huge fleet protecting Earth and Betazed (when Betazed fell, their fleet was out of position on maneuvers, they didn't expect the Dominion to strike so deep).
The fact that rather than Earth's surface being devastated they just firebombed Starfleet HQ says something.
Get out of my head. You see you and me, we're eye to eye.
With Klingons when your rep is high enough, they start following you around. They start jumping into other fights with Negh'vars instead of Birds, but at a certain point, they want a one on one, instead of a with whole squadrons.
I know that joke. What's the difference between an Orion Merchant ship and a pirate ship? What? If you're armed it's a merchant ship, if you're not armed it's a pirate ship.
Mt brother. That is a good point.
As I said earlier, it is fully the case that as soon as the war is over the Federation could start de-retrofitting their dreadnaughts. On the other hand they may need more to combat the Borg or the Iconians, the enemies out there that don't want to negotiate but they want to step on you.
Aww man. Wendy Hughes died. She was gorgeous. I loved that episode.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Wendy_Hughes
Tell that to the crew of the Bismark.
"Quantity has it's own quality". That phrase has a good deal of truth behind it.
It seemed to work for the Jem Hadar, until the Prophets made a significant portion of their fleet disappear.
When you have a large volume of space to cover, quantity most certainly is better. Most of the threats the Federation faces do not involve gigantic fleets or the need for super ships. The fact that you still see Mirandas and other old ships in service says quite a lot. Which is better, having 3 Defiants, or one dreadnaught when you are constantly short of ships and have a huge volume of space to cover?
If you cannot bring your super amazing weapon to bear when you need it, what good is it? Strategic deterrence only works if the people you intend to threaten respect the threat.
Let's say that an enemy fleet slips around your supership fleets. What good is your fleet of resource intensive super ships to the planets in the path of an enemy fleet? By putting all your eggs in one basket you give a numerically superior foe the initiative.
Do you remember what Starfleet's military role is? In case you forgot, it is the defense of the Federation. Going off and playing an eye for an eye defeats that role. While you are off playing deep space raider, your assets are in jeopardy too. I cannot imagine Federation citizens taking any comfort in knowing you are out blowing stuff up, when there is an enemy fleet capturing their planet(s) and killing anyone who resists. People in the path of that fleet are going to wonder what the hell Starfleet is doing to save them.
You don't need super weapons to take out super weapons, nor superships to destroy superships. Starfleet has no threat currently that can justify the resources to build superships like that.
That makes absolutely no sense. Which is it? Are you fighting in defense close to home? Are you off blowing up enemy infrastructure? Either you are going to defend Federation citizens, or you are not.
How is it going to be protracted? A numerically superior foe would have the initiative.
Do not assume that all your opponents are idiots.
Congratulations, you have managed to miss the point entirely.
The german navy was never a match for the Royal navy, and yet the brits went ballistic about letting bismark and co slip past their grip.
Disproportionate amount of military efforts were spend on sinking these ships. Why?
Because you do not let your enemy keep beatsticks like that.
The brits knew to keep their assets ready, because the bismark could have just as easily made a suicide run on london for example. That did bind a lot of forces.
Your initiative means little, in the long run.
All yoi achieve over time is whittle your own force down. The opponent does not need to defend everything, he just needs to defend what he needs to strike you down.
And you could not simply ignore or circumvent the opponents force concentration, because then we are back here:
welcome to fighting through established defensive setups. You are bleeding ships there. Do you want to have a large enemy taskforce poised to fall into your back or just go wreck your supply and reinforcement?
If being numerous was a surefire way to victory, many wars would have turned out differently.
Numbers are a variable in a wide selection of variables, not the end all.
Yes please.
+30 to inertial dampers
I liked it better than Voyager. It was ok, though the Temporal War thing was kind of dumb. The Mirror Universe episodes were interesting.
Heh.
That was my point. It's really only limited use ship. (Unless you are going to shoot the one who took your woman, then it would be ideal :P)
It occurred to me that if you have warp 13 on one ship, why not on others?
But doesn't that defeat the point of having it? Think about it. It's an offensive weapon who's potential can only be realized on the offense. (though against the Borg it might be more useful) It's not going to be cloaked all the time,and as long as it's not on alert, it has no shields either.
As for the Klingons, I definitely would risk using a handful of cloaked BoP's to see about taking out a Galaxy-X while it is docked, under repair/refit, or just sitting idle. Same for the Romulans, though they would probably opt for something covert over brute force.
It would be better in many ways, just to mount the spinal phaser on fixed defenses such as space stations, where you could dedicate a power system just for it. You could still have the deterrent factor, but without the loose cannon, or mailed fist issues.
The Terran Empire certainly would. Look back at history. The use of force or terror is often the tool of choice for a tyrant.
That's my point. Why would the Federation need such starship in the larger scheme of things. The only thing it does better than any other ship is to sneak up on a target and blow it out of space. For most of what the Federation does, this is unnecessary.
The Son'a: Yeah, they would deserve it, but I doubt the Federation council would sanction indisciminate Pew Pew. Other big starships would work though. I don't think the spinal phaser has a stun or disable setting.
Depends on the group and what their goals are, as well as how the rest of a populace regards them.
It's a matter of threat potential and message. The Galaxy class are flexible ships, powerful, yes, but they also perform many other functions besides warfare. You can send a Galaxy class or most other ships to do pretty much anything. Most of the rest of civilized space recognizes that, and isn't unduly threatened when a Starfleet ship shows up. The Galaxy-X only has one purpose, and that is to blow things up.
Problem with the Ansata is that they had a means of attacking the ship, and with enough fighters, could have taken it over with a well coordinated attack...A ship with a cloak would have been an inviting target.
The Prytt weren't terrorists. They were another political entity on the planet in question. The very fact there was a Federation starship there at all was a threat to the Prytt. The Enterprise really had no business being there. The planet wasn't ready for admission. The Prytt were rightly justified in their fears of the Kes getting Federation backing. While the Enterprise itself wasn't necessarily an issue, a Galaxy-X could have been viewed by the xenophobic Prytt as a precursor to either invasion, subjugation, or destruction, and taken it upon themselves to attack the Kes before any alliance or Federation membership could be realized. One is just a big starship, the other is a weapon.
Yes and no. It depends on the threat the ship represents. A covert operation or the network needed to pull off such a thing is difficult and expensive in both time and resources. The target would have to represent a shift in power, or a significant threat to make it worthy of such an operation. You are not going to blow that kind of effort on Mirandas, or even Nebulas.
Problem with using the E-D as an example is it was as much a character as the crew, and had plot armor. It would be bad for the show if the Enterprise went boom mid season.
Historically Starfleet has been able to do that with a sufficiently large fleet of capable ships. Sending a warship to anyone under the guise of peace is basically waving a knife at them. I doubt the Klingons would see it as respect, many of them could take it as an insult that the Federation would send a warship to conduct any sort of negotiations. This is because the Federation frames themselves as peacemakers, diplomats, and explorers, not warriors. Most cultures understand that the Federation has military power without it being waved under their nose.
Three Defiants can do that just as well as a single Galaxy-X will. So for that matter will a normal Galaxy class. You don't need a cloaking BFG to get that message across. If you do, then they are not looking at your military situation as a whole, or seeing your society as weak. If that is the case, then I doubt the cloaking bfg will help. You will still be seen as weak. It's a matter of mindset, and cultural attitude.
Mutual Assured Destruction only worked because both sides were afraid of pulling the trigger, were within reach of each other, and shared the same planet. It doesn't work in the context of the Star Trek universe, in my opinion, unless each side was willing to obliterate whole planets, like with the planet killer, somethig that Starfleet abhors.
Lol
I am still waiting for mine. :mad:
No, it's not invincible. Think of it as an early submarine. It can choose when and where to engage, and when to break off an engagement.
When it does chose to engage, it can obliterate almost any ship with a volley from the spinal phaser before the other ship could respond. You would have to counter it with a fleet, expecting to lose some ships. Quite frankly it doesn't need any other weapons to be considered a weapon of mass destruction. That spinal phaser is a hugely powerful direct fire weapon (we have no idea what it would do directed against a planet). As for being one for one with the Scimitar, the Scimitar would be torn apart by the spinal phaser, should it ever land a hit (remember that it passed unabated through a fully shielded Negh'var ), the problem being finding it to fire.
Yes, but running the ship into a planet would end their reign of terror, solving the issue on it's own.
He may very well have been right about what the cardassians were up to. That was no justification for his actions though. He did exactly the same as the Cardassians who killed his family, a preemptive strike to destroy a perceived weapons depot.
If he had access to a Galaxy-X he would have been virtually unstoppable, and thousands would have died, from his assault.
Remember that Maxwell wasn't operating in a vacuum either. His crew was going along with him, which should had them before a board of inquiry (we don't know what happened to them after that).
Heh, you don't need to lower your shields to talk, but you don't need s cloak and a bfg to do that either.
He didn't have to because he had those advantages, that and the Enterprise could track the Phoenix wherever it went. Maxwell realized his situation was hopeless. However if he had the ability to cloak, that might have changed. He could hunt Cardassians at will.
The situation with the Galor in game is Cryptic playing 'cool starship' card again. They were decent ships, but tended to be inferior to the latest Federation hulls. Not like what we have in the game.
[/Quote]
Riker had a specific target in mind. Maxwell, had a broader target selection to choose from, and unless Gul Macet was willing to spill the beans on what his probable targets were, they would have no idea what he was up to.
Imagine Thomas Riker with a Galaxy-X as well.
True, but while the Defiant certainly has an impressive amount of firepower. It generally can't obliterate battleships in a single volley.
Quantity over quality.
Perhaps, but all too often misconception causes people to act in a manner that is either self destructive, or destructive to what they hold dear. This is true for groups or societies as well.
Don't blame me. It is an official designated ship type...sort of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat
You would need the opposite. But there is no comprehensive list of ships, or assets, so we are left with educated guesses.
I bet you use things that work like fuses and circuit breakers too. With all the power related disasters we see onboard I would think that they would do something about that.
Which says to me that either the Breen were incapable of doing more extensive damage due to damage inflicted by Starfleet and orbital defenses, or they had other things to worry about. Capturing Earth or completely devastating it would have been a major blow. Hitting SFC like that was significant, but it didn't take humans or Earth out of the fight. I don't remember them hitting the shipyards at mars, which would have been a crippling blow.
Heh, a queue of NPCs lining up to fight you. Imagine being followed around by a trail of enemy ships. A fight breaks out when someone tries to cut in.
Seriously though this would seriously help the endgame monotony.
I don't see it happening anytime though because it can't be monetized. *sigh*
I missed nothing.
You made my point for me. German superbatteship<British fleet Quality<Quantity
Good job.
The German navy didn't need need to match the Royal Navy. All it had to do was disrupt supply lines from the United States and Canada.
If the Bismark had gotten loose, it could have destroyed whole convoys with impunity. The supply convoys were vital to England.
Going to bombard London or the English coastline with no support would have been monumentally stupid. There wasn't too much more it could have accomplished over what the Luftwaffe did.
Initiative means a great deal. It lets you choose the battlefield and terms of engagement. Why attack strong points when you can attack soft targets or targets of opportunity, if your goal is to raid? If your goal is to destroy a target, you bring a sufficient amount of ships to accomplish the task taking into consideration enemy opposition.
If an opponent gets loose in your rear, they can wreak substantial havok.
Remember Starfleet's duty is to defend the Federation. You have to go and chase down the attacker and stop them. There is no option of traipsing off to inflict like damage to the enemy while there is an enemy fleet attacking Federation worlds. I would love to see someone tell the citizens of a Federation world that they are not important enough to defend. That Starfleet has more important things to do, like admire how awesome it's ships are parked somewhere else that's more important than their home, and their live mean nothing.
There are few better weapons for an enemy than inaction by one's own military forces.
As I pointed out earlier if you have a few superships, those become prime targets for first strikes. Those would be targets that are identified and located before any sort of campaign, and then taken out in a first strike.
Also, just because you see one fleet on a rampage doesn't mean they have committed everything to an attack. There could be multiple fleets on the move, and until they strike, you won't know about it.
A Galaxy-X can be overwhelmed by numbers, whether it's drawn to a battlefield of the enemies choosing, or it's attacked 'at anchor'. It's by no means invincible. it's only when it's on the offensive does it truly shine. Again, here is where having the initiative is important.
When fighting over interstellar distances, numbers mean a great deal.
Any sort of economics are used to justify any sort of ship building...They simple fail face to dirt
number if crew is used any way simply not supported in this game
Distance and endurance is used . simply not supported in this game
combat repair and supplies simply Fail.............simply fail the entire repair system is a joke
Resources are not used or needed in the game with the exception of the starbases and rep systems which are also a joke if you look at the requirements for ships and equipment
The Gal-X reboot is also a joke
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You are unanimous that STO is poorly implemented?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The entire last season was golden in my view except of course, These are the Voyages.
Because as you said before, Starfleet does build limited use specialty ships. Are you aware of the old Federation Class? Franz Joseph stuff before he and Gene had their falling out. There's actually a design lineage and history for that configuration of ship.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_class
As for the Warp 13 one would think that it's an innovation only possible with the three nacelle configuration. In the game and in the original AGT timeline, this was warp 13 in the 2390s, so compared to the modern period in game it would be one of the earliest Transwarp capable Starfleet vessels.
No. Remember this is built on the Galaxy frame. The cloak is just a bonus, it's not the whole story here. The stealth is for the surprise attack sure, but that's not all it can do. Dreadnaught means takes a licking and keeps on ticking. I'd say it's equally effective on defense, aren't you the one arguing it should be a tank? It is. And blindsiding any ship isn't easy. In the 24th century and beyond ship's shields tend to pop up as soon as an attack is detected. The point of a ship with capabilities like that is that you don't want to fight it at all.
But Space docks have their own defenses to begin with. And hitting the space dock is a more valuable target than just destroying a single Dreadnaught. Furthermore, you would rotate. You don't just put the dreadnaught in dock off station and not have a relief ship.
How do you know they don't? Though you would have to fix multiple lances, since Starbases can't maneuver. And looking at that cannon it looks like it's big enough to have a dedicated power system. I'm telling you would I would slap a class 7 warp core into the base of that thing and call it a day.
But this isn't the Terran Empire. And it isn't going to be the Terran Empire.
Section 31 is a far larger threat to the Federation's reputation as a peaceful actor than any class of retrofitted dreadnaughts.
It would need such a ship because people are trying to kill us. And seriously, it doesn't need to sneak up on something to blow it out of the stars. The Treaty of Algeron is interesting though, apparently the Romulans were terrified of what Starfleet could do with a cloak.
And yes for most of what the Federation does, but if you're going to fight a war, fight it.
The Federation Council would certainly not utilize indiscriminate firing in any situation and Starfleet doesn't train their captains to do that.
You never know on that stun setting. The phaser is very precise. Remember in a Piece of the Action, when Kirk ordered the Enterprise to use the ship's phasers to stun an entire street of mobsters? There's no analog of a Howitzer with stungun or tear gas function. The Phaser Lance might be able to knock the EPS system completely offline without singing the hull.
You know if you look at it, it's clearly a sniper weapon. Looking at the damage normal Type X phasers can do, the Lance could be more about shield penetration. And armor penetration. And hull penetration. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a .01% power setting.
Always.
Of course.
And it's still a Starfleet vessel. They would say, man Starfleet sure is strapping big guns on nowadays, this thing with the Borg/Klingons/whoever, must be giving them real problems. But again you're assuming that you're going to send a Galaxy-X on the same missions that you would send a Galaxy on. Discard what would you do about Maxwell, and think about Jellico when he forced that fleet of Cardassian ships out of the Nebula. Think about the Enterprise-D facing the Borg prior to Wolf 359.
It does have it's place.
Riker would've self destructed it before letting that happen. But at this point you're just arguing that any ship with a cloak could be the same problem. If it was Negh'var it would be just as dangerous. Notice that the Federation isn't as worried about such things with enemies that can cloak on two major borders. That's because cloaks (barring the Broken bird the Scimitar) aren't infallible.
The kidnapping was a terrorist tactic however (though that's to be expected of isolationist fascists).
Then blame the Kes, they were the ones who invited them to evaluate their application for membership. The Prytt were only justified from their perspective. It was still a foolish move. Funny enough it's the opposite logic of the Ansata. The Ansata kidnapped Crusher and attacked the Enterprise for precisely the reason that the Prytt were wrong. They only drew more attention to themselves. If the situation wasn't resolved they were going to be guaranteeing more Starfleet interference in the near future. Fortunately for them this is the Federation who if you tell them to go away, will go away barring any other vital interests. Such a tactic would've virtually guaranteed their annihilation if it was the Klingons. That's not an issue of what starship, that was the Prytt's paranoia working against them.
Well the funny thing is the E-D had plot armor like a kunoichi in a video game. Lots of pleasing openings. Frankly it was too vulnerable some times. For the sake of plot.
A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is a shift in power in an area. It ain't that easy.
Well the perception for many people is that the Federation flies around warships anyway. It's the inverse of the Orion joke. If it's the Klingons that see a Galaxy class flying around it's a Federation Battlecruiser, if it's the Bynars they see a flying computer core, if it's the Romulans it's that little ship, if it's a peaceful society it's a science ship, if it's the Jem'Hadar all ships are targets. What the ship is, is more about what the society thinks about you. I wouldn't send a G-X on a first contact mission for instance, that's not the initial impression you want to make. On the other hand if they were still around the Husnock may think that the Galaxy-X is pathetically underpowered.
The Armistice with Japan was signed on board the USS Missouri. Keep in mind that the Federation does not have that many dedicated diplomatic vessels. All Starfleet vessels must ultimately be all things regardless of their class.
I think you have a gross misunderstanding of Klingon culture in that regard. It's like the Krogan. Even their ambassadors have to be brutal warriors. Look at S'Tass. Jem Hadar attack, tear them apart with teeth and claws. I'll let the the Commander in Chief speak on it.
C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.
The Klingons sent their Chancellor on board their top Heavy Warship at the time. If you respect a Klingon do not speak softly, speak loudly and directly, say it to their face. (and with your chest out.). Don't cruise in with all of your weapons armed. I would much rather have them come aboard my ship to a diplomatic function and say, "This is a fine warship." Then have the whole worthless garbage scow discussion. General Chang was excited to meet who he felt was the Federation's greatest warrior. You say they would take it as an insult if you sent a warship, they would actually take it as an insult if you send anything less than a warship. These are the guys that during their civil wars they're blasting each other out of the sky in the day and then partying til the sun comes up with the guys they were shooting at the same night.
I don't think three Defiants can dismantle a Negh'var like that. (The Regents ship on the Mirror side doesn't count it's one of the largest ships in the franchise and dwarfs our side's Negh'var.)
That works both ways. If they've decided that you're a military expansionist power then whether you're using a dozen little Defiants or one giant Galaxy they're still gonna be scared of you.
The Klingons abhor destroying whole planets like that as well, but that doesn't mean you don't keep your fleets strong. Though I used the example of nukes, Strategic Deterrence has many subtle levels.
You know, this review of the Bortas really made me wonder on the subject of a Klingon Dreadnaught. It is long but I dig Umbreona's reviews, he's pretty thorough and knowledgeable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA8yQZ15Sjw
Well the cloak is a direct analog for a Submarine diving so that is the comparison. Well we know that a Mk X phaser can drill several kilometers into a planet's crust. But I don't see it cracking the crust like an Eclipse class' superlaser.
As Reynold said, a single ship tying up a fleet is a tremendous edge in a battle, especially if they can't destroy it easily or quickly.
That means little to the billions dead.
The episode made it clear he was right. That was followed up later with Chain of Command.
But he had become exactly what he hated. He who fights monsters.
To your point, that already happened. The Cardassians couldn't stop him, and Picard used diplomacy in the guise of a trusted friend to put an end to it. That would work on a Nebula or a Galaxy-X.
The crew was actually backing his play. They believed that they were acting in the best interests of defending the Federation. That said, I'm 100% positive that there was a round of court-martials for everyone.
No, but they come in handy.
He was hunting Cardassians at will. Even on the Enterprise's leash he went off to hunt them again. Maxwell's not the best example though because he didn't go the full Shane, he had a point to prove and still thought he was being the hero. Which is why he was trying to validate his case to Picard instead of firing on the Enterprise so he could continue his crusade. His vendetta clouded his judgment but he was acting on a legitimate concern.
Agreed. If it was the Keldon class I could maybe understand, but the Galor was shown to be below the Nebula and the Galaxy in strength. We can't even say that they're major upgrades since they're surplus Cardassian ships sold by Ferengi.
Riker had a specific target in mind. Maxwell, had a broader target selection to choose from, and unless Gul Macet was willing to spill the beans on what his probable targets were, they would have no idea what he was up to.
Imagine Thomas Riker with a Galaxy-X as well.[/QUOTE]
Actually they did have an idea what he was up to. Basic detective work. He was hitting specific cargo ships running that high power sensor jamming. That was a start. They did you a little detective work in those episodes.
Doubtless if the Maquis had access to a top tier Starfleet Dreadnaught then they certainly would've gone buck wild on the Cardassians. And Starfleet and the Cardassian military would've worked together building tachyon nets and sharing information until it was found and until it was many people would've died.
That's a risk with any ship. You don't not build a ship because of those risks otherwise no one anywhere would build weapons of any kind.
I don't think we're going to reach a consensus or understanding on this, even though I'm enjoying the conversation. We both have valid points that are fully applicable in different situations and different species and cultures. Starfleet has always practiced quality over quantity.
Though in the case of the Yanks, that was more a case of the victory of suicidal determination.
That's for damn sure. But that's the risk with showing up with any kind of guns. Which after getting shot at a few times Captain Archer wasn't having that anymore.
In the modern navy, a boat is smaller craft (submarines count) a full size capitol vessel, is a ship.
But the educated guesses indicate a very large fleet spread out over a very large volume of space.
All consoles that would explode shunt the excess energy into the local inertial dampening field. And there's a film over the touch consoles that keeps exploding consoles from spraying their operators with shrapnel.
That was the point. They got torn apart by the Sector 001 defense fleet and only managed to get a few fighters down to San Fran. It was basically a slap in the face announcing their arrival.
The Klingons hit the shipyards on their side, a good little mission, though I feel it made Starfleet's security measures look dumb as rocks.
On the subject of respect, I am sick to death of the damn Breen talking TRIBBLE to you in every mission. "Did you forget that time we hit Starfleet Headquarters?" That's their one. That's their one. They don't like to talk about the fact that they didn't get a single ship back from that mission. They don't like to talk about the fact that they lost the war or that they picked the wrong side. They don't like to talk about how they were clearly infiltrated by the Founders like suckers? :mad:
Actually I can see that being a set of accolades. Like the Borg Unimatrix ships and the Capitol ship accolades. Once you get to tier five while running a mission you have a chance of being attacked by Captain such and such Son of Whoever of the House of Whatever. Say one elite Klingon Captain per Sector Block. Who has come to test your mettle in battle. Maybe you get a special drop or something if you win. If you beat them all you get an accolade titled White Whale of the Empire or the Greatest Warrior/Song Ever Told. Get attacked in Gamma Orionis by a Klingon general in a Bortas. Each one should present a different challenge like a B'Rel Retrofit that keeps cloak firing on you, or a Vo'quv with its flight wing of B'Rels (by yourself instead of with a team like in Cure Found), a Raptor drain build.
And have one for each rep and enemy species that makes sense, so it would be, Klingon, Hirogen, Gorn, Tal Shiar, and Tholian.
I was playing the new Mirror Universe event, good, but man is that Elite OP, but the hilarious thing is that I got 86'd by the USS London, a Terran Galaxy Dreadnaught....but it killed me with a Gravity Well :rolleyes:.
Which means the Terran G-X has a LtCdr science slot. :lmao
That's classic.
LoL, I'm putting money on that being in the next lock box as one of the mirror secondary ships.
My character Tsin'xing
The Noble class is an option for the Assault Cruiser.
The Celestial and Envoy class skins are only available for the tier 4 (Captain rank) Exploration Cruiser and c-store Refit. It has always been that way. The tier 5 Exploration Cruiser Retrofit has never had them.
I'm guessing it's because the tier 4 versions can't use saucer separation and they haven't worked the Envoy and Celestial skins to work with it for the tier 5 ship. It would be nice if they could make those skins available for the tier 5 Galaxy, and the Dreadnaught, though the Dreadnaught would probably need some artwork for the third nacelle, on top of making it work with saucer separation.