What about thinking of ways the Devs could work with PWE to pitch this to CBS?
They have been pitching it for 4 years.
The Connie is CBS's iconic image of the franchise and big money-maker. The Connie image is still used in commercials - such as the Twizzler commercials and other advertisements. My guess would be that CBS wants additional money to allow the Connie and they and Cryptic cannot come to a reasonable value amount. As I have said elsewhere, CBS probably made more money off of that 30 second Twizzler ad then they do from an entire year of Royalties from STO.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Having fought this match a few times, I'm somewhat confident that I have the gist of the opposition arguments and my counters for each:
#1, and IMO perhaps the biggest. My early postings were punctuated with a "reason" behind CBS's "epic no" being that a Connie should not be as capable as it's 4th and 5th generation decedents, specifically Soverign and Oddessy. And on this one I can "agree", the Connie as a cruiser is rough at Tier 5. However, don't some navies (IIRC, Starfleet Battles did this quite a bit, maybe a few real navies) take "last generation's" heavy cruiser and use it as "this generation's" light cruiser? Doing this, we'd compare the "classification" of light cruiser against existing ships in the game, specifically Intrepid. Since Intrepid = light cruiser = Science ship, a "light cruiser" Connie = Science ship.
#2, age and size: As far as size, the Connie is right around the same size as the Rhode Island class, so it's "in the range" of Science vessels, without anything else. As far as age, remembering that the T1's "already in service" are new builds, it's just a matter of "installing" extra weapons slots, and higher-grade BOff / ship consoles. Also, even if an old Connie still flew, what makes anyone think they're leaving the old Duotronic computer in it, they'd obviously install one of those newer isolinear chip models with a duotronic emulator if it's "that critical" to the systems left in her...
#3, Starfleet (Humanity) "retires" older designs and only focuses on the "latest and greatest". By this logic, there should only be one Cruiser, Science ship, and Escort. Two if you want to go "older model = freebie, newer model = C-store/fleet". After that, the only thing you'd find in the C-store are "consoles" that you'd buy to stick on your class-specific ship. BTW, they'd "have" to go class-specific CMDR slot, remainder universal - which means that the build variety we have now is thrown out the window in favor of the "one true DPS build" for each class...
#4, Who cares about "everyone else", aka the Fleet D7, Fleet T'Varo, T5 D'Kyr, etc. This argument focuses on the "Humanity is the only race that actually "designs" new hulls, everyone else seems to update what they have to fit the modern era. And since Starfleet = Human, Human ship design parameters should dominate. From the fail of this logic - KDF has both refit the D7 and created the Vor'cha and Negh'Var "updates" to this venerable hull, what makes Starfleet (Humanity) so stubborn that they won't want to do so with the Connie - if only to show up everyone else?
#4.5, The ships mentioned in #4 are a mistake. The only ships that should ever have been released at Tier 5 should be 2409 designs, and releasing a Connie, NX, Miranda, Oberth, etc. at T5 should never happen cause while we can't take back the old mistake we can prevent new ones. While this logic is sound, I'd combine the fact that the "mistake" that was made is less the inclusion of "hero" ships at T5, it's the lack of a full slate with appropriate work to make it all happen. Cryptic ran to the wallet with the TNG heroes, knowing that many people would buy them just for the chance to fly their favorite ship, even if, as the Galaxy reboot indicates, they're gonna be permanently saddled with "non optimal" stats.
There we go, I'd say this is 90%, if not 100%, of the "actual lore-based" arguments against a T5 Connie.
To complete my post, let me run my usual proposal...
Consider we have 6 "Eras" of Trek - in "canon chronological" order: ENT, ToS, TMP, TNG, DS9, VOY. When you look at the 3 TNG "eras", one notices that the hero ships are split amongst the three classes, Defiant as Escort, Galaxy as Cruiser, Intrepid as Science. Considering the Excelsior is TMP's "Cruiser", this leaves ENT and ToS slotting into Escort and Sci. As the NX is, essentially, a "kitbash" of the Akira - which already exists as a T5 escort, adding the NX as a skin option there handles the ENT era, leaving ToS Connie and Sci, which dovetails nicely with my aforementioned size / "heavy -> light" bit, etc.
A Science Connie "could" compete with a T5 Oddessy, seemingly contrary to the desires against a 150+ year old hull vs modern stuff. However, it would do so not as a toe-to-toe contemporary, it would do so by using things like shield tanking, science oriented heals, DPS sci powers to supplement the 3/3 loadout, etc.
Said hulls would not be 150 year old metals drug out of mothballs, they'd be built with the same metals, construction techniques, etc. that comprises T5 Oddessys, Lunas, Vestas, etc.
Why is it that I can slot Mk XII gear but can't slot the same number of consoles or weapons that an equal size ship (Rhode Island) can.
As far as stats, I sorta lean on consoling a T5 Connie as a Sci with Engineering bent (4 Sci, 3 Eng, 2 Tac) but TRIBBLE her like a Sci/Tac (Aka Luna build, Cmdr, Lt Cmdr Sci, Lt Engie, Lt and Ens Tac). Turn, inertia, hull points, shield modifier, on a par with the DSSV or even Nebula, as both are sorta cruiserish science vessels. Not sure about a console, however, Mk XII "purple" blue phasers would be an alright substitute as long as they came in various mods that would be picked (free) from the Dil store...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Because in TNG it had already been out of service for 80 bloody years,
"an Overworked under powered vessel, always on the verge of flying apart at the seams"
This is set in 2409, starfleet doesn't consider the old rustbucket to be worthy of high status anymore, deal with it
That was Picard talking about the the Stargazer, a CONSTELLATION-class vessel not a CONSTITUTION-class one.
The D'Kyr is just the same style ship as the old ones.
The Vulcans made an efficient,logical design, and haven't had to change it in hundreds of years.
They aren't the same ships, just new ones built haven't changed the basic idea, brand new hulls and innards, just the same shape and function.
That is how I would view a new Connie as well. I personally think we should have access to all the ships at endgame level (This is a place to have Trek fun, after all, not sure all the hostility... You fly your favorite ship and I'll fly mine, and we can all have fun...)
Personally, other then to complete my collection of endgame flyable Enterprises, it would be rusting in my space dock next to all the ones that aren't my Galaxy or Odyssey... Not a huge fan, but I think its rather absurd that in the Star Trek fantasy land I can't fly whichever Enterprise I like the best.
Edit:In the past I would have said that a D'Kyr didn't live up to its description of being versatile and multi role... she could tank and sci but I couldn't imagine her doing DPS... Then I got her to hit 13.5k... Ok yeah... Vulcans built their ships right the first bloody time :P
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Although i feel the Constitution has no place at tier 5 or fleet level as she was decommissioned before TNG started, If we do get one judging by the trend Cryptic go by when giving us the ships named Enterprise i can see the Constitution getting this layout
Hull 48k
Shield Mod 1.3
Corbonite Manoeuvre console to give ship 100% damage resist for 5 mins
After all the C is better than the D in this game the B is better than the C so the A has to be made better than the B as older means better right judging by Cryptics logic.
Sorry sorry major sour grapes about the pathetic Galaxy not a reboot that Cryptic put out today.
After all the C is better than the D in this game the B is better than the C so the A has to be made better than the B as older means better right judging by Cryptics logic.
So the D is better than the E, and the E is better than the F?
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
After all the C is better than the D in this game the B is better than the C so the A has to be made better than the B as older means better right judging by Cryptics logic.
By that logic, the NX-01 should be the greatest ship ever, second only to shuttles
By that logic, the NX-01 should be the greatest ship ever, second only to shuttles
Nah. Phoenix OP. Nerf Phoenix!
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
The Connie is CBS's iconic image of the franchise and big money-maker. The Connie image is still used in commercials - such as the Twizzler commercials and other advertisements. My guess would be that CBS wants additional money to allow the Connie and they and Cryptic cannot come to a reasonable value amount. As I have said elsewhere, CBS probably made more money off of that 30 second Twizzler ad then they do from an entire year of Royalties from STO.
It is funny as StarTrek Reneades and Star Trek Phase 2 can get away with using it in their episodes.It is being used freely in other Star Trek games eg StarFleet Command and Legacey.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
Wait, is the J better than the E or the X? I'm doing research. For Words with Friends.
No, the J is the worst. :P Which, sarcastic joking aside I really think it should be the worst. That poor hideous monstrosity needs to be put out of it's misery.
Comments
The Connie is CBS's iconic image of the franchise and big money-maker. The Connie image is still used in commercials - such as the Twizzler commercials and other advertisements. My guess would be that CBS wants additional money to allow the Connie and they and Cryptic cannot come to a reasonable value amount. As I have said elsewhere, CBS probably made more money off of that 30 second Twizzler ad then they do from an entire year of Royalties from STO.
#1, and IMO perhaps the biggest. My early postings were punctuated with a "reason" behind CBS's "epic no" being that a Connie should not be as capable as it's 4th and 5th generation decedents, specifically Soverign and Oddessy. And on this one I can "agree", the Connie as a cruiser is rough at Tier 5. However, don't some navies (IIRC, Starfleet Battles did this quite a bit, maybe a few real navies) take "last generation's" heavy cruiser and use it as "this generation's" light cruiser? Doing this, we'd compare the "classification" of light cruiser against existing ships in the game, specifically Intrepid. Since Intrepid = light cruiser = Science ship, a "light cruiser" Connie = Science ship.
#2, age and size: As far as size, the Connie is right around the same size as the Rhode Island class, so it's "in the range" of Science vessels, without anything else. As far as age, remembering that the T1's "already in service" are new builds, it's just a matter of "installing" extra weapons slots, and higher-grade BOff / ship consoles. Also, even if an old Connie still flew, what makes anyone think they're leaving the old Duotronic computer in it, they'd obviously install one of those newer isolinear chip models with a duotronic emulator if it's "that critical" to the systems left in her...
#3, Starfleet (Humanity) "retires" older designs and only focuses on the "latest and greatest". By this logic, there should only be one Cruiser, Science ship, and Escort. Two if you want to go "older model = freebie, newer model = C-store/fleet". After that, the only thing you'd find in the C-store are "consoles" that you'd buy to stick on your class-specific ship. BTW, they'd "have" to go class-specific CMDR slot, remainder universal - which means that the build variety we have now is thrown out the window in favor of the "one true DPS build" for each class...
#4, Who cares about "everyone else", aka the Fleet D7, Fleet T'Varo, T5 D'Kyr, etc. This argument focuses on the "Humanity is the only race that actually "designs" new hulls, everyone else seems to update what they have to fit the modern era. And since Starfleet = Human, Human ship design parameters should dominate. From the fail of this logic - KDF has both refit the D7 and created the Vor'cha and Negh'Var "updates" to this venerable hull, what makes Starfleet (Humanity) so stubborn that they won't want to do so with the Connie - if only to show up everyone else?
#4.5, The ships mentioned in #4 are a mistake. The only ships that should ever have been released at Tier 5 should be 2409 designs, and releasing a Connie, NX, Miranda, Oberth, etc. at T5 should never happen cause while we can't take back the old mistake we can prevent new ones. While this logic is sound, I'd combine the fact that the "mistake" that was made is less the inclusion of "hero" ships at T5, it's the lack of a full slate with appropriate work to make it all happen. Cryptic ran to the wallet with the TNG heroes, knowing that many people would buy them just for the chance to fly their favorite ship, even if, as the Galaxy reboot indicates, they're gonna be permanently saddled with "non optimal" stats.
There we go, I'd say this is 90%, if not 100%, of the "actual lore-based" arguments against a T5 Connie.
To complete my post, let me run my usual proposal...
Consider we have 6 "Eras" of Trek - in "canon chronological" order: ENT, ToS, TMP, TNG, DS9, VOY. When you look at the 3 TNG "eras", one notices that the hero ships are split amongst the three classes, Defiant as Escort, Galaxy as Cruiser, Intrepid as Science. Considering the Excelsior is TMP's "Cruiser", this leaves ENT and ToS slotting into Escort and Sci. As the NX is, essentially, a "kitbash" of the Akira - which already exists as a T5 escort, adding the NX as a skin option there handles the ENT era, leaving ToS Connie and Sci, which dovetails nicely with my aforementioned size / "heavy -> light" bit, etc.
A Science Connie "could" compete with a T5 Oddessy, seemingly contrary to the desires against a 150+ year old hull vs modern stuff. However, it would do so not as a toe-to-toe contemporary, it would do so by using things like shield tanking, science oriented heals, DPS sci powers to supplement the 3/3 loadout, etc.
Said hulls would not be 150 year old metals drug out of mothballs, they'd be built with the same metals, construction techniques, etc. that comprises T5 Oddessys, Lunas, Vestas, etc.
Why is it that I can slot Mk XII gear but can't slot the same number of consoles or weapons that an equal size ship (Rhode Island) can.
As far as stats, I sorta lean on consoling a T5 Connie as a Sci with Engineering bent (4 Sci, 3 Eng, 2 Tac) but TRIBBLE her like a Sci/Tac (Aka Luna build, Cmdr, Lt Cmdr Sci, Lt Engie, Lt and Ens Tac). Turn, inertia, hull points, shield modifier, on a par with the DSSV or even Nebula, as both are sorta cruiserish science vessels. Not sure about a console, however, Mk XII "purple" blue phasers would be an alright substitute as long as they came in various mods that would be picked (free) from the Dil store...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
That was Picard talking about the the Stargazer, a CONSTELLATION-class vessel not a CONSTITUTION-class one.
Just saying.
The Vulcans made an efficient,logical design, and haven't had to change it in hundreds of years.
They aren't the same ships, just new ones built haven't changed the basic idea, brand new hulls and innards, just the same shape and function.
That is how I would view a new Connie as well. I personally think we should have access to all the ships at endgame level (This is a place to have Trek fun, after all, not sure all the hostility... You fly your favorite ship and I'll fly mine, and we can all have fun...)
Personally, other then to complete my collection of endgame flyable Enterprises, it would be rusting in my space dock next to all the ones that aren't my Galaxy or Odyssey... Not a huge fan, but I think its rather absurd that in the Star Trek fantasy land I can't fly whichever Enterprise I like the best.
Edit:In the past I would have said that a D'Kyr didn't live up to its description of being versatile and multi role... she could tank and sci but I couldn't imagine her doing DPS... Then I got her to hit 13.5k... Ok yeah... Vulcans built their ships right the first bloody time :P
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Hull 48k
Shield Mod 1.3
Corbonite Manoeuvre console to give ship 100% damage resist for 5 mins
Cmd Tact
Ens Tact
LtC Engineer
Lt Eng
Lt Sci
3 Engineering Consoles
2 Science Consoles
5 Tactical Consoles
Turn rate of 12
After all the C is better than the D in this game the B is better than the C so the A has to be made better than the B as older means better right judging by Cryptics logic.
Sorry sorry major sour grapes about the pathetic Galaxy not a reboot that Cryptic put out today.
So the D is better than the E, and the E is better than the F?
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
By that logic, the NX-01 should be the greatest ship ever, second only to shuttles
Nah. Phoenix OP. Nerf Phoenix!
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
F better than E, E better than D.
I intentionally left out the E & F in my post, i was trying to be sarcastic about the poor job done on the Galaxy line.
Read my post agian if it isn't in the earlier shots this being TMP it isn't canon and 90% of trek gamers hate it.
Best Enterprise are Original,Refit,A aka Yorktown , and C sone what.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
No, the J is the worst. :P Which, sarcastic joking aside I really think it should be the worst. That poor hideous monstrosity needs to be put out of it's misery.
LOL