This sentiment is really quite damaging and it's worse than where F2P games overly rely on consumable goods; those one-shot items which give short term boosts/speedups before disappearing. These can leave players feeling genuinely unhappy, as at the end of the day, what are they left with to show for their investment? If you spend $70 and all you can show for it is a cleared space in your dungeon, is that rewarding?
Don't get me wrong consumables have a role to play alongside other in-app purchases including permanents and durables. I won't go into the differences here and will just say we need to create anticipation and ongoing value to have happy players. If the game is little more than an exponential begging bowl you will lose trust and life-time value.
This is the exact problem I was describing with the lobi consumables. Little reward or ongoing value. Even the regular hypo type consumables have a more utilitarian value than the fun value that comes from having quantum clones running around or sucking the life out of held enemies. A hypo isn't fun, it's a tool that you're forced to use by losing health. The reusable devices on the other hand have a clear and lasting fun value which is why so many are adamantly opposed to converting them to kit powers. By removing them and turning them into kit abilities you are actively removing value from the player (by reducing the number of powers available to them from 9 to 5 [no I don't consider hypos or other consumables to be a power]), which makes them angry as can be seen in this thread.
...designers haven't taken into account the reasons why people buy. We don't buy because we are enjoying a game, or even to overcome frustration. If it was just frustration we would churn. Players spend money in a game because they anticipate future value. For once I'm not just making that up; check this paper to see that it has been properly studied: Bong-Won Park, Kun Chang Lee: Exploring the value of purchasing online game items. Computers in Human Behavior 27(6): 2178-2185 (2011).
If this is true we have to understand what anticipation is offered for every purchase. If I want to clear the last block to now in order to get to a new gold mine I desperately need to fight off an enemy, and then perhaps I might be willing to spend some money. However, every spend has consequences and after spending $1.20 to clear that block I will question the value I have actually obtained and if I feel cheated (even if I am actually not) I will churn and we will tell other people how terrible the experience was. We need to be more careful about what we charge for and what it says about the flow of the game.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
If they make cane and shard kit powers and thus will take 2 of the 5 slots we have on kits, i predict those items to be not much seen anymore in pvp, they ain't powerful enough to be worth a kit slot in my opinion, at least not in pvp.
They should leave those situational devices alone, the device slot is the right place for them.
From what I got from the podcast, kit abilities will still be restricted by class. You won't be able to slot a Quantum Mortar on a Tactical officer. From what Geko said, Tactical abilities will be divided into two categories, buff and assault abilities. Buffs are things like suppressing fire and assault abilities are things like photon grenade. It appears they plan to have the kit restrict the number of a specific buff type a tactical officer may have, that will probably come in more detail later on. However, he also said that any kit combination available now will also be available after the revamp.
So in other words they're giving us something with one hand whilst taking another thing away with the other hand and some where in between wer're going to get screwed over. Fair enough items should be kept class specific as others have suggested. But I want the ability to slot which ever kit powers I see fit for that toon. And device's should remain device's and not be converted into universal powers.
So in other words they're giving us something with one hand whilst taking another thing away with the other hand and some where in between wer're going to get screwed over. Fair enough items should be kept class specific as others have suggested. But I want the ability to slot which ever kit powers I see fit for that toon. And device's should remain device's and not be converted into universal powers.
One problem I didn't hear addressed in the podcast about this is that there are so many bugged/glitched ground powers. It sounds like they aren't even going to address these and just push it as is. Pretty much most players only use 1 or 2 kits from each class. Along with skills that need fixing some need adjusting so they all have a useful purpose.
One thing I fear though is those of us who have accumulated a lot of gear like kits over the years are most likely going to screwed over in whatever conversion they have planned like all the other conversions. Basically it seems that they just reset the average once you reach a certain point so that you grind grind grind to get back to where you were before.
A number of my devices end up on my BOFFs to use as they please. Will this new system mean my BOFFs can not use these devices? I can only assume so unless they do change the BOFF's skills to a plug and play system.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Non-consumables are not a supplement for kit powers, they are a compliment. The shard of possibilities on my three-purple-security-doff tac officer allows for the development of a distinct "horde" playstyle. If I had to choose between that and something more basic like Ambush or Motion Acceleration I'd probably loose out on that extreme gameplay pathway (unless other options were also made available.)
Indeed. I don't like the idea of them using up a kit slot. The shard of possibilities is good as a non-consumable device, but not as one of 5 kit powers. The same is true of any other device.
Thanks for the expansion that had "as much content as the last"
9 Episodes = 30+ episodes...?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's pronounced "S.T.O." "Stow" sounds idiotic! lol
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
One problem I didn't hear addressed in the podcast about this is that there are so many bugged/glitched ground powers. It sounds like they aren't even going to address these and just push it as is. Pretty much most players only use 1 or 2 kits from each class. Along with skills that need fixing some need adjusting so they all have a useful purpose.
Ground kit abilities aren't bugged for the most part. Right now, the only ability in the game with a bug is the Science Anestizine Gas Grenade. That ability is supposed to apply it's AoE effects for 30 seconds, yet it merely lasts for the initial impact. Other than that, yes, you do have some abilities that do not perform very well (Biofilter Sweep, Stasis Field, etc.)
One thing I fear though is those of us who have accumulated a lot of gear like kits over the years are most likely going to screwed over in whatever conversion they have planned like all the other conversions. Basically it seems that they just reset the average once you reach a certain point so that you grind grind grind to get back to where you were before.
The interview did confirm that we will be able to keep all of our existing kits with the upcoming revamp.
Wellp having tried out the new Combat supply skill... It thoroughly sucks. I'm sorry but the random buffs that get puked out all over the field is 1 really annoying to go pick up, 2 if you're having an o TRIBBLE moment you don't have time to go pick them up or let alone go click on the box.
>>>>>>>> Bring back the old combat supplies skill <<<<<<<<
Wellp having tried out the new Combat supply skill... It thoroughly sucks. I'm sorry but the random buffs that get puked out all over the field is 1 really annoying to go pick up, 2 if you're having an o TRIBBLE moment you don't have time to go pick them up or let alone go click on the box.
>>>>>>>> Bring back the old combat supplies skill <<<<<<<<
No thanks.
This at least can be used and have a point. I'd never ever waste my time in the past with that old Combat Supply. Why would I take that much time putting out the ability, grab the disappearing consumables, equip them, use them, then still need to reequip my normal ones because I ran out?
This at least I can drop, get a buff or two, maybe more, maybe share with friends, and move on. Things keep flowing a lot better, instead of standing there bored while I TRIBBLE with that stupid thing.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
This at least can be used and have a point. I'd never ever waste my time in the past with that old Combat Supply. Why would I take that much time putting out the ability, grab the disappearing consumables, equip them, use them, then still need to reequip my normal ones because I ran out?
This at least I can drop, get a buff or two, maybe more, maybe share with friends, and move on. Things keep flowing a lot better, instead of standing there bored while I TRIBBLE with that stupid thing.
I used old combat drop all the time. it allowed for heavier buffs that you wanted on the action bar when you needed them, without having to break from the fight. By the time you used up the 5th one combat drop would be reset again.
also you could share all the buffs with all your buddies, not with the new one. bang for the buck old one was much more useful.
Combat supplies was pretty much the only reason i kept that kit around
I used old combat drop all the time. it allowed for heavier buffs that you wanted on the action bar when you needed them, without having to break from the fight. By the time you used up the 5th one combat drop would be reset again.
also you could share all the buffs with all your buddies, not with the new one. bang for the buck old one was much more useful.
Combat supplies was pretty much the only reason i kept that kit around
Those old combat supply buffs are just a free version of the consumables purchasable at any major starbase or social zone.
in other words, you want an "i win" combo thanks to stacking 6+ un-costed buffs.
What is wrong with that, as long as it is not used in PVP, in PVE is freaking awesome. I like 5 skills, no device converted to skill. It you want place restrictions for PVP, so players can have 2 builds one for PVE ground and one for PVP ground.
I also vote to keep devices as they are. Heck, the shard of possibilities is 90% social device for me and everyone I know. We randomly spawn clones to dance around each other. I don't even remember to use it in combat.
I wouldn't use a "kit slot" for it, which means I'd simply lose the fun, social aspect of it.
Hopefully, there shall be a restriction to skills, so that you want be able to make op combos. Like Operative kit with Motion Accelerator. Since new Operative kit has Smoke Granade, while Fire Team has Motion Accelerator Cryptic is aware of this issue I suppose.
Still, lockbox skills are nonsense. Im sure they shell sell lvl 4 skills in those boxes or even totally new abilities.
There shall be lobi store upgrade for like 50-200 lobi to get extra slot for a kit. Hate S9 already.
Regarding devices. If those are to become a part of a kit, I doubt people would use Shard or Cane. It would make gameplay cleaner as for me.
__________________
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
It's a shame combat supply is not a case of you deploy it and then it lets you activate a medium-long lasting buff (+dmg, +HP/s, +SHP/s for 15-20s) in a fairly small AoE then it has a timer till the next buff can next be activated of say 30s.
With the combat supply having a deploy cooldown of say 2 mins.
I also vote to keep devices as they are. Heck, the shard of possibilities is 90% social device for me and everyone I know. We randomly spawn clones to dance around each other. I don't even remember to use it in combat.
I wouldn't use a "kit slot" for it, which means I'd simply lose the fun, social aspect of it.
Maybe they should consider making Supply Drop, something more like a supply drone? It could act as an elachi support drone giving a weapons buff, health buff, and maybe some kind of AoE ability that clears a negative condition once every thirty seconds?
As a balance, when it blows, it was a larger radius and explosion, making it a little more dangerous to be around?
So I actually read all eighteen, as of this post, pages.
One or two late mentioners brought up the device issues I am concerned about.
Mission devices.
If you need a romulan rebreather, or a drozana flash light are you now restricted in abilities? Or are they still available for the device/consumable slots?
The better non-consummable devices have their uses as additions to current play.
Shard and cane mentioned by many. Making it have to go into a small kit means you will have worked for not much at all in the end.
Now to mention the positive and monetizing side.
Engineer turrets. They can sell turrets so that you have new effects. Polaron turrets instead of phaser anyone? How about Tetryon or anti-proton. Just as some obvious kit boosts that would be worth spending lobi or zen on.
C-store kit expansion pack. Let you carry more abilities. (Would offset the device loss somewhat)
Issue on consumables. Many are limited functionality. IE any of the Jemhadar boosting consumables. The lobi dual function consumables are okay, but with lobi having more and more value. Why bother? And as others have mentioned the shared cool downs on the devices makes them less useful all around. I like the quick boost from a large energy right before a sniper shot. But then I hope that my team (Boffs or players) can keep me alive because now I am not using a hypo or repairing my shield.
Consumables can't be used on other players.
I am running a science career and I can't pop a hypo into the arm of the officer next to me?
Want consumables used more, then give consumables more that they can do. Heck make the three consumables only target another person if you are the right career path might make things interesting. Sciences can use hypos on others. Engineers buff shields. And Tacs can buff weapons.
But the same Shields and hypos, etc can all still be used by the characters on themselves.
Pets and functionality non-consumables. Horta pet, good addon damage and distracter so enemies shoot at me less. Using the two give rep points tribbles as they well give points. If they can remain in a consumable slot then great. Slotting into a kit is rough and really would kill any later versions of these you might like to put out.
The afore mentioned resequencer. Needed on Defera and borg ground missions both STF and story wise. Kit power? Like I don't need a heal when fighting the borg.
I also noted that it says You will have five kit slots By level 50. So what you get one slot for levels 1-9, two for 10-19, etc? Please re-read the mission specific devices if we are losing device slots.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Maybe they should consider making Supply Drop, something more like a supply drone? It could act as an elachi support drone giving a weapons buff, health buff, and maybe some kind of AoE ability that clears a negative condition once every thirty seconds?
As a balance, when it blows, it was a larger radius and explosion, making it a little more dangerous to be around?
Well, a "supply drop" wouldn't really work while inside of a starship. The package would create a hull breach en route. The current system beams in a supply crate that drops usable buffs nearby. While somewhat untreklike, it does increase the efficiency of the kit's use throughout the game.
Would also agree that device slots should stay as they are not be added to kits.
As to combat supply it would have been a lot nicer if they had just made it drop a crate that gave a fairly large radius aoe buff, have a nice holo image above the box letting you know which buff was active and the engineer/owner of the box could click it to switch whichever buff was active. Then make a new duty officer that transforms the supply crate into a new drone that will follow the engineer around and it would be even better.
Having some low level abilities available cross-class would be rather nice and would make sense as well.
As to combat supply it would have been a lot nicer if they had just made it drop a crate that gave a fairly large radius aoe buff, have a nice holo image above the box letting you know which buff was active and the engineer/owner of the box could click it to switch whichever buff was active. Then make a new duty officer that transforms the supply crate into a new drone that will follow the engineer around and it would be even better.
Personally I'm not opposed to the current system; it is just a symbol for the fact that a player is picking up supplied "gear". I think it would have been more visually interesting as a team wide buff beamed in on each of the teammates with it's own accompanied visuals, but this current system does add some variety.
Turning Frost Boots,Cane,Shard of Possibilities and such into Kit Powers is a terrible idea imo.
People won't bother using those anymore....i for example won't waste a kit slot for frost boots or other devices...
leave them as device slots..there's no need to make them kit powers
The game is a DPS race. Nobody in their right mind will put half of those items into a kit. They work well as fancy bonuses, not as go-to primary abilities.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
The game is a DPS race. Nobody in their right mind will put half of those items into a kit. They work well as fancy bonuses, not as go-to primary abilities.
This sums up the situation with devices nicely. Devices augment kit abilities, but they cannot replace kit abilities.
Just posting to say we're not making devices into kit modules, so there's no need to pre-panic. Your kit should be all about your career and your character's interpretation of that career. Making you choose between being a Fabrication oriented Engineer or an Operations oriented Engineer is cool - making you choose between being an Engineer and a Mirror Image Alien Cane Wizard is less cool. This is the decision we ultimately came to, though we had earlier considered making Device powers into Kit Modules but buffing up their power level or usability to make them reasonable choices as powers.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Comments
http://www.develop-online.net/opinions/the-problems-with-dungeon-keeper-and-why-in-app-purchases-aren-t-inherently-evil/0188827
(my emphasis added, I hope the devs read the whole thing)
This is the exact problem I was describing with the lobi consumables. Little reward or ongoing value. Even the regular hypo type consumables have a more utilitarian value than the fun value that comes from having quantum clones running around or sucking the life out of held enemies. A hypo isn't fun, it's a tool that you're forced to use by losing health. The reusable devices on the other hand have a clear and lasting fun value which is why so many are adamantly opposed to converting them to kit powers. By removing them and turning them into kit abilities you are actively removing value from the player (by reducing the number of powers available to them from 9 to 5 [no I don't consider hypos or other consumables to be a power]), which makes them angry as can be seen in this thread.
Joined January 2009
They should leave those situational devices alone, the device slot is the right place for them.
So in other words they're giving us something with one hand whilst taking another thing away with the other hand and some where in between wer're going to get screwed over. Fair enough items should be kept class specific as others have suggested. But I want the ability to slot which ever kit powers I see fit for that toon. And device's should remain device's and not be converted into universal powers.
One problem I didn't hear addressed in the podcast about this is that there are so many bugged/glitched ground powers. It sounds like they aren't even going to address these and just push it as is. Pretty much most players only use 1 or 2 kits from each class. Along with skills that need fixing some need adjusting so they all have a useful purpose.
One thing I fear though is those of us who have accumulated a lot of gear like kits over the years are most likely going to screwed over in whatever conversion they have planned like all the other conversions. Basically it seems that they just reset the average once you reach a certain point so that you grind grind grind to get back to where you were before.
Indeed. I don't like the idea of them using up a kit slot. The shard of possibilities is good as a non-consumable device, but not as one of 5 kit powers. The same is true of any other device.
9 Episodes = 30+ episodes...?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's pronounced "S.T.O." "Stow" sounds idiotic! lol
^^^ What he said !
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Thanks for the move bluegeek
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
The interview did confirm that we will be able to keep all of our existing kits with the upcoming revamp.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
>>>>>>>> Bring back the old combat supplies skill <<<<<<<<
No thanks.
This at least can be used and have a point. I'd never ever waste my time in the past with that old Combat Supply. Why would I take that much time putting out the ability, grab the disappearing consumables, equip them, use them, then still need to reequip my normal ones because I ran out?
This at least I can drop, get a buff or two, maybe more, maybe share with friends, and move on. Things keep flowing a lot better, instead of standing there bored while I TRIBBLE with that stupid thing.
I used old combat drop all the time. it allowed for heavier buffs that you wanted on the action bar when you needed them, without having to break from the fight. By the time you used up the 5th one combat drop would be reset again.
also you could share all the buffs with all your buddies, not with the new one. bang for the buck old one was much more useful.
Combat supplies was pretty much the only reason i kept that kit around
Those old combat supply buffs are just a free version of the consumables purchasable at any major starbase or social zone.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
What is wrong with that, as long as it is not used in PVP, in PVE is freaking awesome. I like 5 skills, no device converted to skill. It you want place restrictions for PVP, so players can have 2 builds one for PVE ground and one for PVP ground.
I wouldn't use a "kit slot" for it, which means I'd simply lose the fun, social aspect of it.
Still, lockbox skills are nonsense. Im sure they shell sell lvl 4 skills in those boxes or even totally new abilities.
There shall be lobi store upgrade for like 50-200 lobi to get extra slot for a kit. Hate S9 already.
Regarding devices. If those are to become a part of a kit, I doubt people would use Shard or Cane. It would make gameplay cleaner as for me.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
With the combat supply having a deploy cooldown of say 2 mins.
Also this:
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
:rolleyes:
As a balance, when it blows, it was a larger radius and explosion, making it a little more dangerous to be around?
One or two late mentioners brought up the device issues I am concerned about.
Mission devices.
If you need a romulan rebreather, or a drozana flash light are you now restricted in abilities? Or are they still available for the device/consumable slots?
The better non-consummable devices have their uses as additions to current play.
Shard and cane mentioned by many. Making it have to go into a small kit means you will have worked for not much at all in the end.
Now to mention the positive and monetizing side.
Engineer turrets. They can sell turrets so that you have new effects. Polaron turrets instead of phaser anyone? How about Tetryon or anti-proton. Just as some obvious kit boosts that would be worth spending lobi or zen on.
C-store kit expansion pack. Let you carry more abilities. (Would offset the device loss somewhat)
Issue on consumables. Many are limited functionality. IE any of the Jemhadar boosting consumables. The lobi dual function consumables are okay, but with lobi having more and more value. Why bother? And as others have mentioned the shared cool downs on the devices makes them less useful all around. I like the quick boost from a large energy right before a sniper shot. But then I hope that my team (Boffs or players) can keep me alive because now I am not using a hypo or repairing my shield.
Consumables can't be used on other players.
I am running a science career and I can't pop a hypo into the arm of the officer next to me?
Want consumables used more, then give consumables more that they can do. Heck make the three consumables only target another person if you are the right career path might make things interesting. Sciences can use hypos on others. Engineers buff shields. And Tacs can buff weapons.
But the same Shields and hypos, etc can all still be used by the characters on themselves.
Pets and functionality non-consumables. Horta pet, good addon damage and distracter so enemies shoot at me less. Using the two give rep points tribbles as they well give points. If they can remain in a consumable slot then great. Slotting into a kit is rough and really would kill any later versions of these you might like to put out.
The afore mentioned resequencer. Needed on Defera and borg ground missions both STF and story wise. Kit power? Like I don't need a heal when fighting the borg.
I also noted that it says You will have five kit slots By level 50. So what you get one slot for levels 1-9, two for 10-19, etc? Please re-read the mission specific devices if we are losing device slots.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Well, a "supply drop" wouldn't really work while inside of a starship. The package would create a hull breach en route. The current system beams in a supply crate that drops usable buffs nearby. While somewhat untreklike, it does increase the efficiency of the kit's use throughout the game.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
As to combat supply it would have been a lot nicer if they had just made it drop a crate that gave a fairly large radius aoe buff, have a nice holo image above the box letting you know which buff was active and the engineer/owner of the box could click it to switch whichever buff was active. Then make a new duty officer that transforms the supply crate into a new drone that will follow the engineer around and it would be even better.
Having some low level abilities available cross-class would be rather nice and would make sense as well.
Personally I'm not opposed to the current system; it is just a symbol for the fact that a player is picking up supplied "gear". I think it would have been more visually interesting as a team wide buff beamed in on each of the teammates with it's own accompanied visuals, but this current system does add some variety.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
People won't bother using those anymore....i for example won't waste a kit slot for frost boots or other devices...
leave them as device slots..there's no need to make them kit powers
Joined January 2009
This sums up the situation with devices nicely. Devices augment kit abilities, but they cannot replace kit abilities.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
After their non-response over the anniversary ship stuff, i'm curious if they're even listening
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton