Escorts will be getting a boost. The OP forgot to mention Boys getting flanking...
It's coming and I assume it'll be to do with hold breaking, turn rate and speed boost.
Maneuvering thrusters or something to that extent...
Cannons are king of burst, beams rule the dps crowd.
BoP's and other Raider class ships like the Breen Raider will get flanking. But those ships are designed to be glass cannons and hit-and-run ships.
You know, sort of what Escorts were supposed to be like before we all woke up and realized what they were actually doing.
At the moment, I don't really see why pure Escorts should get any kind of a boost unless power creep makes Comm Arrays and Secondary Deflectors OP.
Would you kindly explain your reasoning so I can understand your point?
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I must be doing something wrong....
...as I have no skills, and I fly a DHC equipped escort due to its simplicity in PVE.
Point ship at target, engage Boff skills to suit, press fire. Return for second pass if required.
Excepting the Sphere missions, there's not a lot in PVE that the above tactic won't make mincemeat of even if you aren't running elite fleet gear and consoles.
And IMO missions in the Sphere have been specifically designed to work against Cannon Escorts, but that's another story.
I have never had issues with sphere missions even if I am caught between heals and get stuck with engines off line. The only time I have died is in the Spire mission but usually it is me versus about 10 ships and the random 50K crit gets me.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
Geko has said more then once that he feels that cannons on Escorts are overpowered; but they could never reduce the cannons without a major nerd rage on the forum. The buffs to Cruisers and Science were put in place to try and get around needing to nerf Escort cannons. I do not expect to see any bonuses to Escorts.
I guess someone should send him some Beam Array focused 30k to 50k DPS STF runs to enlighten him.
BoP's and other Raider class ships like the Breen Raider will get flanking. But those ships are designed to be glass cannons and hit-and-run ships.
You know, sort of what Escorts were supposed to be like before we all woke up and realized what they were actually doing.
At the moment, I don't really see why pure Escorts should get any kind of a boost unless power creep makes Comm Arrays and Secondary Deflectors OP.
Would you kindly explain your reasoning so I can understand your point?
You realize any set bonuses and passive heals help escorts more so than the other ships due to the fact and damage bonuses help spike damage, any heals help a escort last longer against other ships. The glass cannon is term that is starting to become moot because of all the PvE crying about immersion and not being able to be successful against 200K HP dumb NPCs
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
The whole idea of how damage is done in the game is a bit broken in my opinion. A starship is a starship, and the damage from all of them should be consistent.
The differences between the careers should be in how that damage is applied.
Escorts should be brawlers, using speed and manoeuvrability to avoid damage while giving it back with accurate middle of the road damage.
Cruisers should be the powerhouses. Bigger guns, longer range and more damage potential than any weapon you could strap to an escort. They would also be less accurate and have longer cool down times between volleys, kinda like artillery.
Science ships would be the support vessels. they do the de-buffing, support and battlefield control.
These are just my opinions, and of course I know such systems won't be changed or implemented at all. 4 years too late for such changes now
Regarding the OP I do think escorts will still be viable, and that Cryptic are doing what they can to have consistency across the ship classes and careers which in my eyes is a good thing.
I must be doing something wrong....
...as I have no skills, and I fly a DHC equipped escort due to its simplicity in PVE.
Point ship at target, engage Boff skills to suit, press fire. Return for second pass if required.
Excepting the Sphere missions, there's not a lot in PVE that the above tactic won't make mincemeat of even if you aren't running elite fleet gear and consoles.
And IMO missions in the Sphere have been specifically designed to work against Cannon Escorts, but that's another story.
Yes your 50K crits would be 15K in a pvp match and your target will heal through it unlike NPCs
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
Escorts will be getting a boost. The OP forgot to mention Boys getting flanking...
It's coming and I assume it'll be to do with hold breaking, turn rate and speed boost.
only BoP's AKA Raiders are getting the boost, Escorts arent, and there are no plans for Fed or Rom Raider class ships.
it has nothing to do with breaking holds or any sort of turn rater or speed increase, its jsut bonus damage when getting flanking style damage on a ship.
The whole idea of how damage is done in the game is a bit broken in my opinion. A starship is a starship, and the damage from all of them should be consistent.
The differences between the careers should be in how that damage is applied.
Escorts should be brawlers, using speed and manoeuvrability to avoid damage while giving it back with accurate middle of the road damage.
Cruisers should be the powerhouses. Bigger guns, longer range and more damage potential than any weapon you could strap to an escort. They would also be less accurate and have longer cool down times between volleys, kinda like artillery.
Science ships would be the support vessels. they do the de-buffing, support and battlefield control.
These are just my opinions, and of course I know such systems won't be changed or implemented at all. 4 years too late for such changes now
Regarding the OP I do think escorts will still be viable, and that Cryptic are doing what they can to have consistency across the ship classes and careers which in my eyes is a good thing.
Then why would anyone fly an escort that relies on you actually targetting and shooting your target and getting all your weapons to bear. Medium damage with little to no self healing whats the point. Cruisers get 0 fall of damage out to 10km they can sit back and shoot and shoot escorts have to be within 5KM to maximize damage. Escorts are high risk high reward they are right in the middle whereas a cruiser gets to stand off.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
only BoP's AKA Raiders are getting the boost, Escorts arent, and there are no plans for Fed or Rom Raider class ships.
it has nothing to do with breaking holds or any sort of turn rater or speed increase, its jsut bonus damage when getting flanking style damage on a ship.
And if the flanking is anything like ground the only "safe" place is behind a cruiser because hitting the broadside will get you into the sweet spot of the cruiser.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
The problem with escorts is their sustained dps is pretty low. Their burst is super high and that's great for PVP. But for PVE, pushing out huge dps for a few seconds before going to half the dps of cruisers until their cooldowns are up again averages out to sub par dps. Maybe it would be different if a Tactical Cube or something "regenerated" it's shields to full after they've collapsed for 10 seconds, where being able to pack a huge amount of dps into a very short window was more important than chugging out decent numbers indefinitely. But that isn't the case. Escorts are basically PVP ships. The only reason why they would ever get a pass in PVE is due to PVE being easy enough to not matter.
Then why would anyone fly an escort that relies on you actually targetting and shooting your target and getting all your weapons to bear. Medium damage with little to no self healing whats the point. Cruisers get 0 fall of damage out to 10km they can sit back and shoot and shoot escorts have to be within 5KM to maximize damage. Escorts are high risk high reward they are right in the middle whereas a cruiser gets to stand off.
Not quite. I envision cruiser grade weapons to have a very hard time to target escorts, it would be like trying to swat a fly with a rowboat oar y'know?
As for the escort thing. Well...because it's fun! It would be fun to charge right up close under the guns of aggressors and scramble around them firing away like WWII biplanes.
Anyhoo it's only my humble opinion. You don't have to agree with me
The problem with escorts is their sustained dps is pretty low. Their burst is super high and that's great for PVP. But for PVE, pushing out huge dps for a few seconds before going to half the dps of cruisers until their cooldowns are up again averages out to sub par dps. Maybe it would be different if a Tactical Cube or something "regenerated" it's shields to full after they've collapsed for 10 seconds, where being able to pack a huge amount of dps into a very short window was more important than chugging out decent numbers indefinitely. But that isn't the case. Escorts are basically PVP ships. The only reason why they would ever get a pass in PVE is due to PVE being easy enough to not matter.
Huh? A properly built escort will push out more DPS than a cruiser in most occassions. The alpha which ill use all the high level buffs and highest level debuffs they have has a significantly high number then the secondary run in PvE will have a lower level buff run which in 10-15 second window would be higher than a cruiser. My alpha is Decloak-APA-FOMM-TF-CRF1-APO3-BO3-Cascading Tet.-TT Next run will APB2 - CRF1 - BOL1 - TT. Sprinkle in GDF if the NPC gets me below 50% hull
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
escorts have always been the paper cannon in the game and a fleet of them can render anything dead before it has the chance to kill you that why early in the game life everyone flew them. as stf changed and the fact they are paper cannons began to show getting 1 shooted etc the demand for the cruisers and science rose.
So cruiser commands gets released, and as a cruiser captain i am absolutely estatic.
Finally i can support! Finally i can actually be useful, and not just a snail of a meat shield.
And barely even that since a certain other class seems to steal all the threat.
I thought TACs in cruisers were the best DPS in the game.
Why else would I see redshirts flying big-TRIBBLE ships and a full load of -threat consoles.
escorts have always been the paper cannon in the game and a fleet of them can render anything dead before it has the chance to kill you that why early in the game life everyone flew them. as stf changed and the fact they are paper cannons began to show getting 1 shooted etc the demand for the cruisers and science rose.
The only missions where you can get one shotted are all the missions any ship can be one shotted. CE, Hive, Borg RA Bosses, KA Boss if you do not move out of the way of the Thalaron Weapon OL. Escorts that get one-shotted anywhere else are doing it wrong.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
Leaving those ships that can't in the dust. Also, being able to equip duals does not guarantee that you can bring them to bear. Look at the Bortasqu'.
You mean Dual Heavy Cannons. The reason why you do not see many cruisers doing it is because of what you have to give up to do it. YOu have to run Aux2 Dampners, a lot of RCS modules, high engine power all that to get a moderate alpha on a target since you will at most have a LTC tac boff as you highest BOFF tac so do you run BO3 or APO2
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
You mean Dual Heavy Cannons. The reason why you do not see many cruisers doing it is because of what you have to give up to do it. YOu have to run Aux2 Dampners, a lot of RCS modules, high engine power all that to get a moderate alpha on a target since you will at most have a LTC tac boff as you highest BOFF tac so do you run BO3 or APO2
DHCs have an innate advantage without ever using a BOff skill: High base DPS without the galactically stupid power drain inherent in beam arrays.
Cannons really should be crazy like they are. If you watch DS9 and the fights the Defiant is in, most of the time they destroyed their target in one volley of the cannon. The only times they did not is when they were trying to not blow the snot out of it. Watch the episode where they saved the cardasian councel from the klingons. They are trying to not destroy the klingon ships and they are losing the fight, and Sisko gives up and tells Worf to do what ever he has to, and he starts two shotting the birds of prey. Cannons should be crazy.
That being said, the bigger issue is that cruisers and science ships do not have enough going for them. I have tried out some other ships on occation and since STO is so combat focused it feels like there is little modivation to actually play a Cruiser or Science ship unless you just like that type of ship. They need to either make some tweeks to how combat works to level the playing field more, or they need to add some less comabt focused aspects into the game where science and cruisers have an advantage and an escort is slowed down (though, this would probably be more mission related).
All in all though, some of the largest advantages escorts have is the shear number of tactical abilities they can have avalible between the number of tactical slots and how useful slotting two of the same skill can be. On my temperal destroyer I have two copies of scatter volley and two copies of cannon rapid fire, and two copies of Attack pattern beta. In essence I can basically have a 80-90% uptime on those abilities. If you had a cruiser or a science ship with the same bridge officer layouts as escorts, they would be a beast in combat too.
Why using escort when you can do twice or more DPS than them using a proper A2b + marion + dem cruiser ? Or even more with a scimitar. You don't even have to bother with positioning your ship, survivability or targeting. Just spam spacebar to victory.
And you have all the nice buffs like the commands.
Just check the biggest recorded DPS on the DPS channel official parser. Most of them have "BFAW bugged" written as a note. Pretty sure those are not escorts.
And for the community it's fine, because for a long time escort were op, or should I said, beamboat where not powerful enough in their mind. So instead of thinking no ship or gameplay should be subpar, they just enjoy taking their revenge.
Huh? A properly built escort will push out more DPS than a cruiser in most occassions. The alpha which ill use all the high level buffs and highest level debuffs they have has a significantly high number then the secondary run in PvE will have a lower level buff run which in 10-15 second window would be higher than a cruiser. My alpha is Decloak-APA-FOMM-TF-CRF1-APO3-BO3-Cascading Tet.-TT Next run will APB2 - CRF1 - BOL1 - TT. Sprinkle in GDF if the NPC gets me below 50% hull
I pretty much said Escorts have a great Alpha attack. But once that Alpha attack ends, their dps over the long haul averages out to be lesser than a FAW boat. Obviously Cannons have a higher baseline damage, but that is not the complete story. Things like FAW and Marion skew the edge to beam boats more than you likely realize is possible.
I pretty much said Escorts have a great Alpha attack. But once that Alpha attack ends, their dps over the long haul averages out to be lesser than a FAW boat. Obviously Cannons have a higher baseline damage, but that is not the complete story. Things like FAW and Marion skew the edge to beam boats more than you likely realize is possible.
For every 10k dps parser log of beam array faw on crowded map, I can show you a 100k dps parser log of dhc cycling cannon spread parked in front of a vesta gravity well sucking in everything in 15km radius in mirror event. Both are meaningless.;)
Beam array faw is about spreading dmg onto lots of targets while slowly killing few of them. The time consuming points of most stfs are often boss fights bashing things like an elite cube. That's the reason why beam faw squads produce large parser numbers across match sessions, yet dhc escort-heavy squads produce shorter matches. If someone claiming beam array outdamages dhcs sound like BS, looks like BS, and smells like BS, it's because it is BS. :rolleyes:
You mean Dual Heavy Cannons. The reason why you do not see many cruisers doing it is because of what you have to give up to do it. YOu have to run Aux2 Dampners, a lot of RCS modules, high engine power all that to get a moderate alpha on a target since you will at most have a LTC tac boff as you highest BOFF tac so do you run BO3 or APO2
While it makes sense, no, that's not the reason. It's because cruisers (as opposed to bc) can't fit dhcs. BCs often have 10 or greater base turn, 13 with strategic maneuvering, all before fitting any rcs. So klinks can, and do fit dhcs. It's one of the few perks of being klink until Avenger came along.
For every 10k dps parser log of beam array faw on crowded map, I can show you a 100k dps parser log of dhc cycling cannon spread parked in front of a gravity well in mirror event. Both are meaningless.;)
If someone claiming beam array outdamages dhcs sound like BS, looks like BS, and smells like BS, it's because it is BS.:rolleyes:
Of course. Cannons have ten TIMES the dps of beams. Why didn't I see it?! :eek:
That was sarcasam.
If you're only doing 10kdps with a marion beam boat, you're doing it wrong. :rolleyes:
Escorts will soon be the worst ships in the game once secondary deflector and flanking comes to bear. Cruisers have a higher dps, cruiser commands, and generally speaking shield mod/hull strength.
The role of the escort will be obsolete in most roles. A few specific situations/queues exist where it will remain king, but for the stfs, it is outclassed and outgunned. Spike means NOTHING in stfs, and that's all escorts can outdo cruisers in.
Highest dps dhc ise parse in the game - 35k
Highest dps bfaw ise parse in the game - well over 50k.
Keep drinking the koolaid if you think escorts are king.
Actually one power i wouldn't mind seeing on Escorts, is somehting that dumps all threat.
Would make it a lot easier for us cruisers to do our supposed job.
Escorts will soon be the worst ships in the game once secondary deflector and flanking comes to bear. Cruisers have a higher dps, cruiser commands, and generally speaking shield mod/hull strength.
The role of the escort will be obsolete in most roles. A few specific situations/queues exist where it will remain king, but for the stfs, it is outclassed and outgunned. Spike means NOTHING in stfs, and that's all escorts can outdo cruisers in.
Highest dps dhc ise parse in the game - 35k
Highest dps bfaw ise parse in the game - well over 50k.
Keep drinking the koolaid if you think escorts are king.
If you are in an escort, and you are being out-DPS'ed by a cruiser, you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Comments
BoP's and other Raider class ships like the Breen Raider will get flanking. But those ships are designed to be glass cannons and hit-and-run ships.
You know, sort of what Escorts were supposed to be like before we all woke up and realized what they were actually doing.
At the moment, I don't really see why pure Escorts should get any kind of a boost unless power creep makes Comm Arrays and Secondary Deflectors OP.
Would you kindly explain your reasoning so I can understand your point?
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I have never had issues with sphere missions even if I am caught between heals and get stuck with engines off line. The only time I have died is in the Spire mission but usually it is me versus about 10 ships and the random 50K crit gets me.
I guess someone should send him some Beam Array focused 30k to 50k DPS STF runs to enlighten him.
You realize any set bonuses and passive heals help escorts more so than the other ships due to the fact and damage bonuses help spike damage, any heals help a escort last longer against other ships. The glass cannon is term that is starting to become moot because of all the PvE crying about immersion and not being able to be successful against 200K HP dumb NPCs
The differences between the careers should be in how that damage is applied.
Escorts should be brawlers, using speed and manoeuvrability to avoid damage while giving it back with accurate middle of the road damage.
Cruisers should be the powerhouses. Bigger guns, longer range and more damage potential than any weapon you could strap to an escort. They would also be less accurate and have longer cool down times between volleys, kinda like artillery.
Science ships would be the support vessels. they do the de-buffing, support and battlefield control.
These are just my opinions, and of course I know such systems won't be changed or implemented at all. 4 years too late for such changes now
Regarding the OP I do think escorts will still be viable, and that Cryptic are doing what they can to have consistency across the ship classes and careers which in my eyes is a good thing.
Yes your 50K crits would be 15K in a pvp match and your target will heal through it unlike NPCs
only BoP's AKA Raiders are getting the boost, Escorts arent, and there are no plans for Fed or Rom Raider class ships.
it has nothing to do with breaking holds or any sort of turn rater or speed increase, its jsut bonus damage when getting flanking style damage on a ship.
Then why would anyone fly an escort that relies on you actually targetting and shooting your target and getting all your weapons to bear. Medium damage with little to no self healing whats the point. Cruisers get 0 fall of damage out to 10km they can sit back and shoot and shoot escorts have to be within 5KM to maximize damage. Escorts are high risk high reward they are right in the middle whereas a cruiser gets to stand off.
And if the flanking is anything like ground the only "safe" place is behind a cruiser because hitting the broadside will get you into the sweet spot of the cruiser.
Not quite. I envision cruiser grade weapons to have a very hard time to target escorts, it would be like trying to swat a fly with a rowboat oar y'know?
As for the escort thing. Well...because it's fun! It would be fun to charge right up close under the guns of aggressors and scramble around them firing away like WWII biplanes.
Anyhoo it's only my humble opinion. You don't have to agree with me
Huh? A properly built escort will push out more DPS than a cruiser in most occassions. The alpha which ill use all the high level buffs and highest level debuffs they have has a significantly high number then the secondary run in PvE will have a lower level buff run which in 10-15 second window would be higher than a cruiser. My alpha is Decloak-APA-FOMM-TF-CRF1-APO3-BO3-Cascading Tet.-TT Next run will APB2 - CRF1 - BOL1 - TT. Sprinkle in GDF if the NPC gets me below 50% hull
I thought TACs in cruisers were the best DPS in the game.
Why else would I see redshirts flying big-TRIBBLE ships and a full load of -threat consoles.
The only missions where you can get one shotted are all the missions any ship can be one shotted. CE, Hive, Borg RA Bosses, KA Boss if you do not move out of the way of the Thalaron Weapon OL. Escorts that get one-shotted anywhere else are doing it wrong.
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You mean Dual Heavy Cannons. The reason why you do not see many cruisers doing it is because of what you have to give up to do it. YOu have to run Aux2 Dampners, a lot of RCS modules, high engine power all that to get a moderate alpha on a target since you will at most have a LTC tac boff as you highest BOFF tac so do you run BO3 or APO2
That being said, the bigger issue is that cruisers and science ships do not have enough going for them. I have tried out some other ships on occation and since STO is so combat focused it feels like there is little modivation to actually play a Cruiser or Science ship unless you just like that type of ship. They need to either make some tweeks to how combat works to level the playing field more, or they need to add some less comabt focused aspects into the game where science and cruisers have an advantage and an escort is slowed down (though, this would probably be more mission related).
All in all though, some of the largest advantages escorts have is the shear number of tactical abilities they can have avalible between the number of tactical slots and how useful slotting two of the same skill can be. On my temperal destroyer I have two copies of scatter volley and two copies of cannon rapid fire, and two copies of Attack pattern beta. In essence I can basically have a 80-90% uptime on those abilities. If you had a cruiser or a science ship with the same bridge officer layouts as escorts, they would be a beast in combat too.
And you have all the nice buffs like the commands.
Just check the biggest recorded DPS on the DPS channel official parser. Most of them have "BFAW bugged" written as a note. Pretty sure those are not escorts.
And for the community it's fine, because for a long time escort were op, or should I said, beamboat where not powerful enough in their mind. So instead of thinking no ship or gameplay should be subpar, they just enjoy taking their revenge.
I pretty much said Escorts have a great Alpha attack. But once that Alpha attack ends, their dps over the long haul averages out to be lesser than a FAW boat. Obviously Cannons have a higher baseline damage, but that is not the complete story. Things like FAW and Marion skew the edge to beam boats more than you likely realize is possible.
For every 10k dps parser log of beam array faw on crowded map, I can show you a 100k dps parser log of dhc cycling cannon spread parked in front of a vesta gravity well sucking in everything in 15km radius in mirror event. Both are meaningless.;)
Beam array faw is about spreading dmg onto lots of targets while slowly killing few of them. The time consuming points of most stfs are often boss fights bashing things like an elite cube. That's the reason why beam faw squads produce large parser numbers across match sessions, yet dhc escort-heavy squads produce shorter matches. If someone claiming beam array outdamages dhcs sound like BS, looks like BS, and smells like BS, it's because it is BS. :rolleyes:
While it makes sense, no, that's not the reason. It's because cruisers (as opposed to bc) can't fit dhcs. BCs often have 10 or greater base turn, 13 with strategic maneuvering, all before fitting any rcs. So klinks can, and do fit dhcs. It's one of the few perks of being klink until Avenger came along.
Of course. Cannons have ten TIMES the dps of beams. Why didn't I see it?! :eek:
That was sarcasam.
If you're only doing 10kdps with a marion beam boat, you're doing it wrong. :rolleyes:
Escorts will soon be the worst ships in the game once secondary deflector and flanking comes to bear. Cruisers have a higher dps, cruiser commands, and generally speaking shield mod/hull strength.
The role of the escort will be obsolete in most roles. A few specific situations/queues exist where it will remain king, but for the stfs, it is outclassed and outgunned. Spike means NOTHING in stfs, and that's all escorts can outdo cruisers in.
Highest dps dhc ise parse in the game - 35k
Highest dps bfaw ise parse in the game - well over 50k.
Keep drinking the koolaid if you think escorts are king.
Yeah. Because it's not like Cruisers have a power that increases their own threat level and decreases that of their nearby allies.
If you are in an escort, and you are being out-DPS'ed by a cruiser, you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.