Random moment of clarity as to how to best explain the problem with this Anniversary Event, and the path the game is starting down compared to how it was.
This really sums up the 'grind' problem, and lays out how many players, such as some of the vocal ones here, are likely processing it.
I love that channel, really the devs should watch the whole series...
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." — Lazarus Long --->Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Random moment of clarity as to how to best explain the problem with this Anniversary Event, and the path the game is starting down compared to how it was.
Random moment of clarity as to how to best explain the problem with this Anniversary Event, and the path the game is starting down compared to how it was.
This really sums up the 'grind' problem, and lays out how many players, such as some of the vocal ones here, are likely processing it.
This has been my exact point. The grind that is in the game is meaningless when you separate it from the reward it grants (e.g. party patrol). I realized this when I got my first C-store ship and lost interest in such rewards. Once I no longer had that hunger for premium items, I started to notice that I didn't have the ambition to play those grind missions anymore. Now, I find myself spending most of my time online in Ker'rat trying out different builds and hunting KDF. I still want those reputation items, but it doesn't overwhelm my disdain for the grind I have to endure to get it. Putting in time and effort into a game to accomplish long-term goals (like rep projects) isn't bad in, and of, itself. It's when the journey isn't as rewarding as the destination; that makes it bad.
Running the same mission(s) over and over again isn't fun unless it's against other players. NPC's don't learn how to beat you. They don't change up their strategy to keep you on your toes. They don't work together to bring you down. Once you find the golden path, that's the end of your growth as a player. Then it just becomes a exercise in the mundane.
I find a game the most rewarding when I'm still trying to master it or the world it's set in is still a mystery. "And to many humans, a mystery is irresistible. It must be solved.", to quote Captain Picard. It would be ever so great if STO was littered with detective mysteries to solve. Going around the sector, searching for clues, chasing leads. That's real Star Trek; facing trials and finding the answers. Q's accusation that humans are a "savage child race" and putting it to Picard to prove that humans have potential to grow, and at the same time, showing Picard new ways to achieve that growth. So, constantly being put to the test would offer a perpetual source of entertainment; giving the player new challenges all the time to push themselves just a bit farther.
Exploration, experimentation, and investigation should be the at the core of this game. And when I talk about mysteries, investigation, and solving puzzles, I'm not talking about checking off items from a list to progress the mission. I'm talking about gathering clues and analyzing them so that you can figure out the next lead. It's the scientific method applied as a game mechanic. Observe a phenomena, form a hypothesis, gather and analyze data, test the hypothesis, and form conclusions.
TL;DR
I wish the game was more Sherlock Holmes than a hamster wheel.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Exploration, experimentation, and investigation should be the at the core of this game. And when I talk about mysteries, investigation, and solving puzzles, I'm not talking about checking off items from a list to progress the mission. I'm talking about gathering clues and analyzing them so that you can figure out the next lead. It's the scientific method applied as a game mechanic. Observe a phenomena, form a hypothesis, gather and analyze data, test the hypothesis, and form conclusions.
TL;DR
I wish the game was more Sherlock Holmes than a hamster wheel.
^^ This! Million times this!!
They need to create content that makes us think, inovate and feel chalenged while it keeps that distinct Trek feeling of venturing into the unknown, solving riddles, exploring space and possibilities...
I'd grind through this type of content for an entire year even if it only unlocks access to a single item, rather than chasing miniQs or collecting coins & power-ups like Pacman.
They need to create content that makes us think, inovate and feel chalenged while it keeps that distinct Trek feeling of venturing into the unknown, solving riddles, exploring space and possibilities...
I'd grind through this type of content for an entire year even if it only unlocks access to a single item, rather than chasing miniQs or collecting coins & power-ups like Pacman.
If you are expecting this, then you don't know PWE.
But with 200 plus pages of posts, I hope they at least read the title.
That's hard, sometimes the title of a thread changes several times a day.
Beta, LTA, CE, Multiple preorder Versions, all Addon Packs except AoY, nearly all KDF/Rom and ~50% of all Fedships, over 25 LockboxShips, Endurer of Atari's "Year of Hell", but...
They need to create content that makes us think, inovate and feel chalenged while it keeps that distinct Trek feeling of venturing into the unknown, solving riddles, exploring space and possibilities...
I'd grind through this type of content for an entire year even if it only unlocks access to a single item, rather than chasing miniQs or collecting coins & power-ups like Pacman.
The problem there.... is the question of how to make it replayable without being boring... If you can solve that....
Expecting?....Not really sure, I mean look at my sig and tell me I'm not aware what to expect or not expect from PWE. lol
Just voicing my opinion and giving moral support for a good idea.
Yup, because chasing miniQs over and over again is fun as hell, right? :rolleyes:
Well, you want engaging content that you can replay endlessly, and NOT get bored. How can that be done? It takes far more time to write missions than to play them. thus the only way is to use some sort of randomizer to make the missions. Which is how the exploration clusters work.
Well, you want engaging content that you can replay endlessly, and NOT get bored. How can that be done? It takes far more time to write missions than to play them. thus the only way is to use some sort of randomizer to make the missions. Which is how the exploration clusters work.
Donrah gave some pretty good ideas on the issue in his post. Besides, it's not my job to figure out how to make it happen, that's for the people that work on the game to figue out.
The exploration clusters were a good start, too bad the system was never expanded upon.
Donrah gave some pretty good ideas on the issue in his post. Besides, it's not my job to figure out how to make it happen, that's for the people that work on the game to figue out.
The exploration clusters were a good start, too bad the system was never expanded upon.
If they actually awarded exp, skill, dil, marks, and EC for doing Foundry missions, that would at least make it less monotonous. They could even introduce bonuses for trying new missions rather than taking the well-worn path.
the idea sounds nice. But the issue, as Geko mentioned in the last podcast, is that any new reward to the Foundry means a giant chunk of new exploits. Exploiters are the reason Foundry missions have cruddy rewards.
That being said it would be nice if they could expand the exploration cluster variety. There is only so much randomness you can add to the system before it becomes nonsensical, and the current system has had minor issues with that, but, I'd like to see how far they could take it.
The problem there.... is the question of how to make it replayable without being boring... If you can solve that....
Why would you replay it? Just start another one. Replaying the mission over and over again is exactly the opposite of the intended goal. The point is to have a constant stream of new missions that are fun to play rather than the Skinner-box we already have.
For example, let's say that the Foundry has dozens of these missions. Each of these missions would grant you the same rewards you would get for 30 minutes of grinding. So you can log in each day, do a mission (or several), and get your marks/dil/EC/skill/exp at the same rate as grinding an STF, fleet action, episode, or daily. Then you can do a new mission(s) every day without tedious repetition.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
This one?:the idea sounds nice. But the issue, as Geko mentioned in the last podcast, is that any new reward to the Foundry means a giant chunk of new exploits. Exploiters are the reason Foundry missions have cruddy rewards.
That being said it would be nice if they could expand the exploration cluster variety. There is only so much randomness you can add to the system before it becomes nonsensical, and the current system has had minor issues with that, but, I'd like to see how far they could take it.
Well, it depends on how you apply those rewards that makes an exploit possible. If you only apply these rewards to an approved list of missions (e.g. anything that makes spotlight status), then players can only earn rewards from missions that have been vetted. As long as they are not click-and-collect missions, it shouldn't be a problem. Scale the rewards based on their average completion time. If players are only taking 15 minutes to finish a mission, then scale the rewards down. If they take an hour, scale it up for that mission. Add a floor and ceiling for completion time that's no more than 2 hours and no less than 15 minutes. If you go out of those bounds, then you don't get a reward.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Well, it depends on how you apply those rewards that makes an exploit possible. If you only apply these rewards to an approved list of missions (e.g. anything that makes spotlight status), then players can only earn rewards from missions that have been vetted. As long as they are not click-and-collect missions, it shouldn't be a problem. Scale the rewards based on their average completion time. If players are only taking 15 minutes to finish a mission, then scale the rewards down. If they take an hour, scale it up for that mission. Add a floor and ceiling for completion time that's no more than 2 hours and no less than 15 minutes. If you go out of those bounds, then you don't get a reward.
Yeah, its an easy fix.
tie the rewards to a wrapper, not the foundry mission itself.
Well, it depends on how you apply those rewards that makes an exploit possible. If you only apply these rewards to an approved list of missions (e.g. anything that makes spotlight status), then players can only earn rewards from missions that have been vetted. As long as they are not click-and-collect missions, it shouldn't be a problem. Scale the rewards based on their average completion time. If players are only taking 15 minutes to finish a mission, then scale the rewards down. If they take an hour, scale it up for that mission. Add a floor and ceiling for completion time that's no more than 2 hours and no less than 15 minutes. If you go out of those bounds, then you don't get a reward.
The current foundry reward system does scale based on time. It also gives better rewards for spotlights. So I suppose the current question is what the reward should be.
I seem to remember that they placed a Q at SFA and Q'Onos last year, to make it a lttle easier for players. With the extra grinding of "Party time" maybe they could do this again. I'm only doing the grind on one toon, so I can imagine that this would help those running multi-toons even more.
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." — Lazarus Long --->Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If you really have that little time to play..... But later you talk about "hours just farming".... So you DO have that much time apparently....
I fail to see where I said I spend hours just farming., im pretty sure I have made it perfectly clear in this thread that I lament it, and try to avoid it.. sure, I do my dailies, and I do as much rep as I can *with the time I have) but... when im done doing all that TRIBBLE, I don't have time to enjoy the foundry, or run some of the missions I like.. or mess around with fleeties in pvp or something.. infact, everytime I log in, no one is ever able to help, or mess around cause everyone is always grinding, either for the starbase their own reps.. or just getting one of the millions of marks you need to be competitive at endgame..
Also, I was not just talking about me, but summing up a lot of what people have been saying in the post.. I do not have all of those distractions.. I do have a life, and I am busy, but I am someone who does have more time than others for the game..
however, I do not wish to play the game on cryptic time schedule.. I wish to play it on mine.. which is what this is all about.. in most other games, you are given daily's, and for the most part, the repetition (ie, hunting for gear) is more of a weekly thing. also, there is more to do than worry about rep, and gear in a lot of these games.. there is pets and mounts (which I don't think fit in sto) and achevements, and worthwhile pvp that isn't broken, and story lines, and rare spawns, and the list goes on..
sto only has a rep grind.. 4 year old stf's, and a bunch of quickly thrown together endgame senarios (that you grind to death for fleet marks, romulan marks, or any other marks) that you grow tired of, and they all are just about the same. the story content is barely there.. sure every once in a while we get a cool fe, but the problem is the story is incoherent at this point. its going to many directions, and too many side stories were left un resolved.. in lamans terms, its like swiss cheese..
so this grind style of content, is getting old, and getting old fast.. and in a world of games that can accommodate every player, and has more than just grind in it, cryptic is foolish to stay on this one line of developing..
The current foundry reward system does scale based on time. It also gives better rewards for spotlights. So I suppose the current question is what the reward should be.
I would say let the player choose. Grant expertise and skill as default and let the player choose one extra reward. So, if you're trying to advance your Omega rep, just set rewards to Omega marks. Set it to dilithium/EC if you need that, etc, etc.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Wow even on one toon this anniversary is a drag...
Just wondering why we don't earn Qmendations on the FE replays, need to run it multiple times for the EQ/EV suits, so why no Qmendations? This would mean a little less time running around SFA.
Oh yes... Is it not possible to lock out the party time games, so that players don't start a present hunt only to run of and find a runner. Sometimes SFA is full of presents turning and mixing, without anyone watching them. It must be possible to set it so that you can't try a second game until the first is completed or timed out.
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." — Lazarus Long --->Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Wow even on one toon this anniversary is a drag...
Just wondering why we don't earn Qmendations on the FE replays, need to run it multiple times for the EQ/EV suits, so why no Qmendations? This would mean a little less time running around SFA.
Oh yes... Is it not possible to lock out the party time games, so that players don't start a present hunt only to run of and find a runner. Sometimes SFA is full of presents turning and mixing, without anyone watching them. It must be possible to set it so that you can't try a second game until the first is completed or timed out.
Why do that? You can start several shuffles and take a guess at each one. Don't blame players for Cryptic's stupid grindiversary. Players are just trying to make the best of a bad situation.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Wow even on one toon this anniversary is a drag...
Just wondering why we don't earn Qmendations on the FE replays, need to run it multiple times for the EQ/EV suits, so why no Qmendations? This would mean a little less time running around SFA.
Oh yes... Is it not possible to lock out the party time games, so that players don't start a present hunt only to run of and find a runner. Sometimes SFA is full of presents turning and mixing, without anyone watching them. It must be possible to set it so that you can't try a second game until the first is completed or timed out.
Well I'm sure it would be possible to punish people for "having fun wrong."
But why bother? I've usually got 2-4 sets of gifts dancing depending on how many runners turn up- then I go finish off all of them and I'm done and gone in under 2 minutes. Most of the people QQing about it spend more time on the QQ than I do in the Academy.
And it's especially easy once you can pick your game all along- if you look, some of the Party Crashers have hit point bars and some don't. The ones that don't always spawn the shell game, the ones that do always spawn runners.
Then add that once the shell game stops its overly long "shuffle" animation, looking at the boxes in Shooter Mode will reveal where Q is: the "interact" gear symbol appears when you aim at the box he's in.
So I trip 4 shell games, then instead of scratching my gluteus maximus watching them slide around I chase down a runner. When that runner is caught, shell game 1 is through shuffling and waiting for an answer. Boom-boom-boom-boom. Finish off the 4 shell games, my daily is done and I'm outta there.
I would say let the player choose. Grant expertise and skill as default and let the player choose one extra reward. So, if you're trying to advance your Omega rep, just set rewards to Omega marks. Set it to dilithium/EC if you need that, etc, etc.
So something akin to choosing either dil or a choice of marks box? that could work I guess.
I think the lack of response to all this feedback just shows they don't really care if we like the grind or not. They're just going to do what they want and ignore any players who don't like it. The only way anything gets changed around here is if a) it makes them more money or b) they have no other choice but to give in.
They say they're listening, but it's easy to say that when you don't have to actually address the feedback.
In spite of what I said in my earlier post in this thread, I decided to only do the grind on my main (Romulan Science officer allied with KDF), and not all my Science officers, let alone the noobie Engi I made. In that previous post, I made mention of a desire for the grind to be untrollable. That was not the case with this event, however. And with the ship from the grind being only T4, and any T5 ship requiring ZEN purchase, I was further annoyed.
In spite of what I said in my earlier post in this thread, I decided to only do the grind on my main (Romulan Science officer allied with KDF), and not all my Science officers, let alone the noobie Engi I made. In that previous post, I made mention of a desire for the grind to be untrollable. That was not the case with this event, however. And with the ship from the grind being only T4, and any T5 ship requiring ZEN purchase, I was further annoyed.
Comments
I love that channel, really the devs should watch the whole series...
This has been my exact point. The grind that is in the game is meaningless when you separate it from the reward it grants (e.g. party patrol). I realized this when I got my first C-store ship and lost interest in such rewards. Once I no longer had that hunger for premium items, I started to notice that I didn't have the ambition to play those grind missions anymore. Now, I find myself spending most of my time online in Ker'rat trying out different builds and hunting KDF. I still want those reputation items, but it doesn't overwhelm my disdain for the grind I have to endure to get it. Putting in time and effort into a game to accomplish long-term goals (like rep projects) isn't bad in, and of, itself. It's when the journey isn't as rewarding as the destination; that makes it bad.
Running the same mission(s) over and over again isn't fun unless it's against other players. NPC's don't learn how to beat you. They don't change up their strategy to keep you on your toes. They don't work together to bring you down. Once you find the golden path, that's the end of your growth as a player. Then it just becomes a exercise in the mundane.
I find a game the most rewarding when I'm still trying to master it or the world it's set in is still a mystery. "And to many humans, a mystery is irresistible. It must be solved.", to quote Captain Picard. It would be ever so great if STO was littered with detective mysteries to solve. Going around the sector, searching for clues, chasing leads. That's real Star Trek; facing trials and finding the answers. Q's accusation that humans are a "savage child race" and putting it to Picard to prove that humans have potential to grow, and at the same time, showing Picard new ways to achieve that growth. So, constantly being put to the test would offer a perpetual source of entertainment; giving the player new challenges all the time to push themselves just a bit farther.
Exploration, experimentation, and investigation should be the at the core of this game. And when I talk about mysteries, investigation, and solving puzzles, I'm not talking about checking off items from a list to progress the mission. I'm talking about gathering clues and analyzing them so that you can figure out the next lead. It's the scientific method applied as a game mechanic. Observe a phenomena, form a hypothesis, gather and analyze data, test the hypothesis, and form conclusions.
TL;DR
I wish the game was more Sherlock Holmes than a hamster wheel.
Perfectly put. Enough said.
^^ This! Million times this!!
They need to create content that makes us think, inovate and feel chalenged while it keeps that distinct Trek feeling of venturing into the unknown, solving riddles, exploring space and possibilities...
I'd grind through this type of content for an entire year even if it only unlocks access to a single item, rather than chasing miniQs or collecting coins & power-ups like Pacman.
If you are expecting this, then you don't know PWE.
Expecting... No.
But with 200 plus pages of posts, I hope they at least read the title.
That's hard, sometimes the title of a thread changes several times a day.
This one has stayed more or less the same for a while.
you can't miss it Cryptic, its the big elephant shaped thing in the room.
My character Tsin'xing
Expecting?....Not really sure, I mean look at my sig and tell me I'm not aware what to expect or not expect from PWE. lol
Just voicing my opinion and giving moral support for a good idea.
Yup, because chasing miniQs over and over again is fun as hell, right? :rolleyes:
My character Tsin'xing
Donrah gave some pretty good ideas on the issue in his post. Besides, it's not my job to figure out how to make it happen, that's for the people that work on the game to figue out.
The exploration clusters were a good start, too bad the system was never expanded upon.
That being said it would be nice if they could expand the exploration cluster variety. There is only so much randomness you can add to the system before it becomes nonsensical, and the current system has had minor issues with that, but, I'd like to see how far they could take it.
My character Tsin'xing
Why would you replay it? Just start another one. Replaying the mission over and over again is exactly the opposite of the intended goal. The point is to have a constant stream of new missions that are fun to play rather than the Skinner-box we already have.
For example, let's say that the Foundry has dozens of these missions. Each of these missions would grant you the same rewards you would get for 30 minutes of grinding. So you can log in each day, do a mission (or several), and get your marks/dil/EC/skill/exp at the same rate as grinding an STF, fleet action, episode, or daily. Then you can do a new mission(s) every day without tedious repetition.
Well, it depends on how you apply those rewards that makes an exploit possible. If you only apply these rewards to an approved list of missions (e.g. anything that makes spotlight status), then players can only earn rewards from missions that have been vetted. As long as they are not click-and-collect missions, it shouldn't be a problem. Scale the rewards based on their average completion time. If players are only taking 15 minutes to finish a mission, then scale the rewards down. If they take an hour, scale it up for that mission. Add a floor and ceiling for completion time that's no more than 2 hours and no less than 15 minutes. If you go out of those bounds, then you don't get a reward.
Yeah, its an easy fix.
tie the rewards to a wrapper, not the foundry mission itself.
Time gate wrapper. Done.
My character Tsin'xing
If we are going to have to do an event Rep Grind for ships next year...I want the option to be able to shoot the Q-Bits as they run.
In other words: Duck Hunt Q Edition
Everyone would want to take part than and use the Q-Bits for Target Practice.
I fail to see where I said I spend hours just farming., im pretty sure I have made it perfectly clear in this thread that I lament it, and try to avoid it.. sure, I do my dailies, and I do as much rep as I can *with the time I have) but... when im done doing all that TRIBBLE, I don't have time to enjoy the foundry, or run some of the missions I like.. or mess around with fleeties in pvp or something.. infact, everytime I log in, no one is ever able to help, or mess around cause everyone is always grinding, either for the starbase their own reps.. or just getting one of the millions of marks you need to be competitive at endgame..
Also, I was not just talking about me, but summing up a lot of what people have been saying in the post.. I do not have all of those distractions.. I do have a life, and I am busy, but I am someone who does have more time than others for the game..
however, I do not wish to play the game on cryptic time schedule.. I wish to play it on mine.. which is what this is all about.. in most other games, you are given daily's, and for the most part, the repetition (ie, hunting for gear) is more of a weekly thing. also, there is more to do than worry about rep, and gear in a lot of these games.. there is pets and mounts (which I don't think fit in sto) and achevements, and worthwhile pvp that isn't broken, and story lines, and rare spawns, and the list goes on..
sto only has a rep grind.. 4 year old stf's, and a bunch of quickly thrown together endgame senarios (that you grind to death for fleet marks, romulan marks, or any other marks) that you grow tired of, and they all are just about the same. the story content is barely there.. sure every once in a while we get a cool fe, but the problem is the story is incoherent at this point. its going to many directions, and too many side stories were left un resolved.. in lamans terms, its like swiss cheese..
so this grind style of content, is getting old, and getting old fast.. and in a world of games that can accommodate every player, and has more than just grind in it, cryptic is foolish to stay on this one line of developing..
I would say let the player choose. Grant expertise and skill as default and let the player choose one extra reward. So, if you're trying to advance your Omega rep, just set rewards to Omega marks. Set it to dilithium/EC if you need that, etc, etc.
Just wondering why we don't earn Qmendations on the FE replays, need to run it multiple times for the EQ/EV suits, so why no Qmendations? This would mean a little less time running around SFA.
Oh yes... Is it not possible to lock out the party time games, so that players don't start a present hunt only to run of and find a runner. Sometimes SFA is full of presents turning and mixing, without anyone watching them. It must be possible to set it so that you can't try a second game until the first is completed or timed out.
Why do that? You can start several shuffles and take a guess at each one. Don't blame players for Cryptic's stupid grindiversary. Players are just trying to make the best of a bad situation.
Well I'm sure it would be possible to punish people for "having fun wrong."
But why bother? I've usually got 2-4 sets of gifts dancing depending on how many runners turn up- then I go finish off all of them and I'm done and gone in under 2 minutes. Most of the people QQing about it spend more time on the QQ than I do in the Academy.
And it's especially easy once you can pick your game all along- if you look, some of the Party Crashers have hit point bars and some don't. The ones that don't always spawn the shell game, the ones that do always spawn runners.
Then add that once the shell game stops its overly long "shuffle" animation, looking at the boxes in Shooter Mode will reveal where Q is: the "interact" gear symbol appears when you aim at the box he's in.
So I trip 4 shell games, then instead of scratching my gluteus maximus watching them slide around I chase down a runner. When that runner is caught, shell game 1 is through shuffling and waiting for an answer. Boom-boom-boom-boom. Finish off the 4 shell games, my daily is done and I'm outta there.
My character Tsin'xing
They say they're listening, but it's easy to say that when you don't have to actually address the feedback.
This ship is not Tier IV. It's a Tier V ship.