I think we just need to get Cryptic to commit to some of the core game play issues we all want to see improved. Yes more maps more game types... perhaps new balance mechanics... improved Ques. These are things we now need Cryptic to move forward on. We will support them as a community have no doubt there.
It's a wonder why though. But maybe this year.
That reminds me of a story from shortly after f2p launched. A player didn't like that I had the Red Matter on my defiant. In zone he flamed me for being a p2w newb. Curse me for supporting a game for 2 years before f2p...
Those are excellent points Husanak. I wonder how many people realize that the player created leaderboard also has a function where it will autobalance teams based on past performance? And that he did this for free just because he loves pvp?
Thank you Hilbert for all that you do. It's totally appreciated.
You know when I first heard he added the auto team balance. I honestly thought well that's nice of him but I can't see that working. Balancing only on numbers... won't work well.
I was wrong though... its still only as good as the data that goes in of course. However the way he put it together is genius. Letting us choose form a few different options. It is cool to see though how close that best option 1 is often really that golden perfect 15 14 match.
Someone was saying a few pages back we have no ideas....
Smash Hilberts leaderboard into the back end (they don't need to post a leader board if they feel its untrek just keep the date in the back ground) with the idea of the Tyler Durden Channel... into a new and improved que system. As far as premades just remove them (we can still challange match for real preamde fights)... by teaming just pull people into the same match, not the same team if the balance numbers don't work out that way. Boom auto TD style que... that would improve the experience for every player new and old.
This is just dumb. Until Cryptic actually touches 1 bit of the whole PvP code, any of this is meaningless.
Blogs, Bootcamps, w.e. noppa nada.
Sure let the community give more attention to PvP! That we sure need. NOT
Too much whiners, cryers, if you're bad you suck and get roflstomped, if you're too good people start hating you, people don't want to learn. And most won't make it to the higher 'levels' by themselves, before they eventually stop playing or stay on the dark cry tour side.
Oh gosh, pay to win! I wanna play this game for FREE!! WE all knew the consequences of free2play.
Its because not enough people were willing to sub for the game, and they lost most of their earned money from lifers too by the time Atari lost their final grip on this game.
Sure, cryptic could have done a better job at the f2p model, appearance, visual ship mods, it shoulve been enough. But no, we all want super OP toys, so deal with it.
Personally for me, and not FOR me, but for me to OTHERS (Yes I got loads of money, time, and maxed everything, Rep and all the necessary TRIBBLE you need.
But for me, to others, the horrible Reputation system is what killed PvP. I can not imagine a world where new players that want to try out PvP would eventually have to rep up 10 or more Reputation systems by the year 2016 to get like 30+ passives in order to be competitive.
Good game, but PvP was lost after f2p went live. At least, if your ultimate dream is for this game to become balanced, not broken, etc. Its too late. What Cryptic has done cannot even be reverted or they will alienate 99% of their playerbase. Nerf some ship p2w toy goodies? Forget it.
(Im not personally asking for this, but it seems to be the thoughts of at least half the pvp playerbase based on all the whining etc)
I was fully prepared to hate this blog. When Brandon announced it I was girding myself for either a numbers diatribe or some terrible advice. Imagine the pleasant surprise in finding that not only was this well written, it was really good advice.
Kudos. So many players new to pvp think that gearing or rep is the most important thing. It's not. It's attitude, flexibility and creativity. Not to mention a healthy dose of flying and timing. Ask anyone in a serious pvp fleet. Want the max rep lockbox guy with a bad attitude and an inflexible build or a new player with white gear and no rep who has a good attitude and is willing to learn and try things with the team? No contest.
To those who say pvp is about cookie cutter builds? Yeah, those guys aren't good at pvp. The metagame of team based builds is incredibly deep in STO. It's just too bad we can't get a new map and some more rewards for pvp to make people want to come do it (and not afk it).
i agree very nice blog i usually am either in my assault crusier, oddy, or obleisk on my fed eng char always going in to the queue's, non of my fleetmates ever want to do pvp, but I am trying to get better at my tank
on kdf side i am usually in my sci char's karfi with advanced fer'jai's or my tact with the bug
This is just dumb. Until Cryptic actually touches 1 bit of the whole PvP code, any of this is meaningless.
Blogs, Bootcamps, w.e. noppa nada.
Sure let the community give more attention to PvP! That we sure need. NOT
Too much whiners, cryers, if you're bad you suck and get roflstomped, if you're too good people start hating you, people don't want to learn. And most won't back it to the higher 'levels' by themselves.
Untrue, everyday i go into pvp yes i die, but everytime i die i learn, adapt and get better
(STO)
Matriarch of Banished Orion Girls. Neela D'tan @captaintpol (with many alts)
May we sail and have fun always and forever. LLAP
(PC version NW)
Arwen@captaintpol TR - Tully's of RiverRun
Mai Kelly DC-Tully's of RiverRun
Neela BumKisses HR-
Arya Stark GF-
Sansa Stark CW- Team Fencebane
Crystal Marie OP-
(xbox version NW)
Arwen@Admiral Jazdia TR- Team Fenebane
Mai Kelly DC- " "
Ahsoka Tano CW- " "
Neela BumKisser HR- " "
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
But then, I'm not about to take the effort of grinding all it takes for me to maximize my efficiency at one role. My Excelsior is build with diversity in mind. And she does a hell of a job in most circumstances. Just not in PvP.
The solution for PvP is kinda easy.
When we queue up, allow us to see the teams being made. Not only that, distribute the teams fairly. What is fair? Look at the players PvP reputation. No, not another grindable reputation, but just an unlimited number of points you can earn by killing people. Like how most online shooters work with leveling up.
Balancing is what will save PvP. Not guest blogs that still ignore the main issue of PvP.
That being said, I enjoyed reading your Guest Blog and fully agreed with what it said.
Here's some useful information I would have liked to have seen in a PvP guest blog when I was starting out
1 - Setting up your call and targeting keys
a - How to setup "t" so that it puts in team chat "Target >> this bozo << !! " automatically
b - How to setup "r" and pinning the "caller" so that you can easily switch targets to the caller.
c - How to create a separate TEAM chat window that only has TEAM chat in it.
2 - Setting up your UI to be more useful
a - Moving your health and teammates icons closer to the center of the screen (include examples from players of how they have their UI configured)
b - Enabling the health bars of all on-screen objects
c - Disabling auto pet targeting
d - Arranging items in your first 1-0 tray such that they are the most "on-demand" items you need
3 - Setting up your "healer" keys (Especially if you're not a healer! Cross-healing wins matches!)
a - (this is personal preference) Setup F1-F4 to fire all your heals for the 1st, 2nd, etc teamate on your team. Setup F5 to fire heals for YOU (including miracle worker etc). Order them so that shields or hull fire first based on how you prefer to run.
4 - Setup a "SpamBar"
a - Line up all your self defense buffs, and trigger a fire all weapons
5 - Setup a Alpha Attack bar
a - Line up all your offensive buffs, and trigger a fire all weapons
6 - Or just combine 4 & 5 for the simplest solution - SuperSpamBar!
7 - Use your power distribution buttons! So many people just run 50/50/50/50. :-(
I know for ADVANCED USERS THESE SUGGESTIONS ARE TEH STUPID IT BURNS, but for people getting started they get you light-years beyond the typical person in the queue.
i pretty much did all that already, in the thread linked in my sig. most of what your asking for has been posted for a long time in various help threads
i pretty much did all that already, in the thread linked in my sig. most of what your asking for has been posted for a long time in various help threads
It seems to me that this blog was mostly filled with empty platitudes rather than real, concrete advice and instruction. Much like other featured "instructional" material, it restates the obvious without bothering to explain how to actually succeed. You may as well have just gone with reciting the Jem'hadar Mantra: Obedience brings victory, victory is life.
It seems to me that this blog was mostly filled with empty platitudes rather than real, concrete advice and instruction. Much like other featured "instructional" material, it restates the obvious without bothering to explain how to actually succeed. You may as well have just gone with reciting the Jem'hadar Mantra: Obedience brings victory, victory is life.
If i had actually to make it that complex it would be very long and a waste of time. and why does everyone else like the blog then?
I'm just happy to see some more public focus on PVP. I really hope they actually do something with it. Almost all my old friends from 2010 are gone. I would love to see them come back. We used to have EPIC fights with those dirty Pandas
It's sad to see such good folks leave a game that has potential. That said, another year like the last, I don't know if PVP can survive. Lots of fragile egos from the f2p crowd and while I can understand it from my experience getting into PVP. In the end it was pretty easy finding groups of players that were helpful and friendly. IE, -X-/LORE.
With New Years Eve fast approaching, give a toast to a fresh and fun new year of EPIC fights.
And join Tyler Durden. TS: tylerdurden.failnoob.com:9988 there are 4 team channels and it's open to anyone who wants to setup matches anytime of the day or night.
Grind up a 500,000,000 EC budget for consoles and duty officers, spend real cash on c-store/lockbox ships, and resign yourself to the constraints of an "approved," career-specific, cookie-cutter build.
This narrow-thinking kind of "advice" makes for a bland, homogenous player base.
From a Sci Healer point of view it does not take 500m ec to make a decent pvp buiild. In fact, including the lockbox ship (in this case a recluse) id say its more around 100m and that is not nearly as grindy as you would think especially if your are throwing a little cash into it. But i say you dont even need a lockbox ship to play, if you have a good build you can do just fine in a fleet ship or even a free VA ship if your bold enough. just prepared to be defeated by the spam of the people with all the lobi consoles and ships u can dream up every once in awhile.
As most of us know that Bridge Officer abilities are important but useless unless you have the right Duty Officers. PvP is heavily dependent on Duty Officers to make sure you get the most out of your gear.
I have seen many PvP builds in action and some I question as how they seem to defy simple logic.
A good example would be the JHAS, I have seen this ship shield tank up to 4 ships with only EP2S 1 in play and can shield tank for a good 3 or more minutes and still not go down.
There are no team heals in these situations.
Any one care to share what Duty Officer ability(ies) would allow this.
I do know that said players were using the Borg Shield because I would see the shield heal Proc. go off.
I have never seen the Borg shield proc go off so many times and give such a large amount of shield heal to be able to keep their shields in constant white.
So somehow they were able to reduce the amount of incoming damage their shields were taking and/or they were able to out heal the amount of damage their shields were taking.
I can understand being able to shield tank 1 or 2 ships, maybe 3, but not 4.
Anyone care to share their Duty Officer, ship console(s) info to allow this.
This would be helpful to get players that don?t know a way to start thinking in terms of survivability .
From a Sci Healer point of view it does not take 500m ec to make a decent pvp buiild. In fact, including the lockbox ship (in this case a recluse) id say its more around 100m and that is not nearly as grindy as you would think especially if your are throwing a little cash into it. But i say you dont even need a lockbox ship to play, if you have a good build you can do just fine in a fleet ship or even a free VA ship if your bold enough. just prepared to be defeated by the spam of the people with all the lobi consoles and ships u can dream up every once in awhile.
I do agree that you don?t need a Lock box ship or C-Store Ship to be competitive in PvP.
I have seen the Risian corvette do some heavy fighting in PvP.
as far as jhas surviving 4 other players id say it comes down to stacking as much defenses as you can. probably those 2 skills, your speed, your resist consoles, aux2damp or epte, maybe brace for impact with doff. there are too many ways to defend, find what works and practice. also the jhas is already tough as nails for an escort which is one reason why its the most expensive ship in the game.
as far as jhas surviving 4 other players id say it comes down to stacking as much defenses as you can. probably those 2 skills, your speed, your resist consoles, aux2damp or epte, maybe brace for impact with doff. there are too many ways to defend, find what works and practice. also the jhas is already tough as nails for an escort which is one reason why its the most expensive ship in the game.
As far as I know resist consoles, aux2damp, Brace for impact only work on hull damage not shield damage. I am talking about shield tanking not hull tanking
A good example would be the JHAS, I have seen this ship shield tank up to 4 ships with only EP2S 1 in play and can shield tank for a good 3 or more minutes and still not go down.
There are no team heals in these situations.
Any one care to share what Duty Officer ability(ies) would allow this.
I assume it is speed tanking. Shields need to be hit to take damage. Conn Officer to reduce recharge of Evasive Maneuvers. Engine Battery, Deuterium, and EPTE to fill the gaps.
finally accepting that you cant join a 5v5 or more pvp and expect to be top dps, top heals, top kills, and do it all in record time match after match with your 1 pvp ship (rock, paper, scissor comes to mind when you talk builds in sto and there is no one ship and build that trumps all)
if all else fails, understand that you are in control of the level of fun you get out of pvp in sto,
agree totally, also id say it takes a large degree of patience (tho im sure most of us mmo gamers have a fair bit of that) and attitude plays a role. I know those times i get frustrated by all the spam, trolling, or whatever its best to just take a break from the pvp part for a bit (or use your own spam) otherwise i just feel like TRIBBLE. feels bad when you are giving it 110% trying to help a pug group of newbies against a premade.
Heres hoping for somekind of built in matchmaking system someday...
People tend to focus on 'what is that guy doing', 'what does that guy have', 'how can do what he does', and so on. They tend to not think about...'what am I doing', 'what do I have,' 'and how can I counter what the other person is doing'. To me, realizing that simple truth can go a long way to helping a person really become an honest PvPer, and also get rid of that nasty mentality of 'I'm not winning, so it must be hax' that can prevail so easily sometimes.
Now, how was that Bug living so well? I'm not 100% sure. You mentioned he was running EPTS, probably in a basic ETPX cycle, and had the Borg shield proct most likely as well, and still taking on 4 ships at once. There are many DOFFs, gear, etc that I could talk about, any of which could've helped keep him alive.
BUT...
Look at the other side of the equation. That Bug was taking on 4 ships at once, and living quite a long time at that.
So, were those ships coordinating attacks? Tacs timing Alphas, Scis hitting the guy with SNB, etc? Or were they just wantonly firing whatever they had at him, trying to take him down without really timing anything together? I have a feeling that more than anything probably kept him alive most of all.
Don't misunderstand, I'm sure that Bug pilot had to know SOMETHING of course to keep alive, the Bug ship doesn't automatically make a person a good pilot or anything, even though it is an extremely good ship. But I doubt that it was only skill keeping him alive, it was the lack of coordination (not necessarily a lack of skill mind you) by those four shooting him.
I've seen on these forums and in the game sometimes that 'PvP is only a DPS game, and that's all that counts' when honestly, in reality, the exact opposite is true. All the DPS in the world doesn't mean squat if you cannot apply it effectively enough to actually get a kill. And that is what counts in PvP, taking out the other guy.
I'm not saying those players are bad, only that they were not able to apply their damage enough to kill him. Maybe they were going up against some really really skilled player, I don't know the details, I'm just going on what you've mentioned in the thread.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Comments
It's a wonder why though. But maybe this year.
That reminds me of a story from shortly after f2p launched. A player didn't like that I had the Red Matter on my defiant. In zone he flamed me for being a p2w newb. Curse me for supporting a game for 2 years before f2p...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You know when I first heard he added the auto team balance. I honestly thought well that's nice of him but I can't see that working. Balancing only on numbers... won't work well.
I was wrong though... its still only as good as the data that goes in of course. However the way he put it together is genius. Letting us choose form a few different options. It is cool to see though how close that best option 1 is often really that golden perfect 15 14 match.
Someone was saying a few pages back we have no ideas....
Smash Hilberts leaderboard into the back end (they don't need to post a leader board if they feel its untrek just keep the date in the back ground) with the idea of the Tyler Durden Channel... into a new and improved que system. As far as premades just remove them (we can still challange match for real preamde fights)... by teaming just pull people into the same match, not the same team if the balance numbers don't work out that way. Boom auto TD style que... that would improve the experience for every player new and old.
Blogs, Bootcamps, w.e. noppa nada.
Sure let the community give more attention to PvP! That we sure need. NOT
Too much whiners, cryers, if you're bad you suck and get roflstomped, if you're too good people start hating you, people don't want to learn. And most won't make it to the higher 'levels' by themselves, before they eventually stop playing or stay on the dark cry tour side.
Oh gosh, pay to win! I wanna play this game for FREE!! WE all knew the consequences of free2play.
Its because not enough people were willing to sub for the game, and they lost most of their earned money from lifers too by the time Atari lost their final grip on this game.
Sure, cryptic could have done a better job at the f2p model, appearance, visual ship mods, it shoulve been enough. But no, we all want super OP toys, so deal with it.
Personally for me, and not FOR me, but for me to OTHERS (Yes I got loads of money, time, and maxed everything, Rep and all the necessary TRIBBLE you need.
But for me, to others, the horrible Reputation system is what killed PvP. I can not imagine a world where new players that want to try out PvP would eventually have to rep up 10 or more Reputation systems by the year 2016 to get like 30+ passives in order to be competitive.
Good game, but PvP was lost after f2p went live. At least, if your ultimate dream is for this game to become balanced, not broken, etc. Its too late. What Cryptic has done cannot even be reverted or they will alienate 99% of their playerbase. Nerf some ship p2w toy goodies? Forget it.
(Im not personally asking for this, but it seems to be the thoughts of at least half the pvp playerbase based on all the whining etc)
I watch the only good STO podcast STOked Radio
Want to learn more about any of the above? Let me know!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
No one ever does in anything... its a parable of real life isn't it. lol
Untrue, everyday i go into pvp yes i die, but everytime i die i learn, adapt and get better
Matriarch of Banished Orion Girls. Neela D'tan
@captaintpol (with many alts)
May we sail and have fun always and forever. LLAP
(PC version NW)
Arwen@captaintpol TR - Tully's of RiverRun
Mai Kelly DC-Tully's of RiverRun
Neela BumKisses HR-
Arya Stark GF-
Sansa Stark CW- Team Fencebane
Crystal Marie OP-
(xbox version NW)
Arwen@Admiral Jazdia TR- Team Fenebane
Mai Kelly DC- " "
Ahsoka Tano CW- " "
Neela BumKisser HR- " "
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
But then, I'm not about to take the effort of grinding all it takes for me to maximize my efficiency at one role. My Excelsior is build with diversity in mind. And she does a hell of a job in most circumstances. Just not in PvP.
The solution for PvP is kinda easy.
When we queue up, allow us to see the teams being made. Not only that, distribute the teams fairly. What is fair? Look at the players PvP reputation. No, not another grindable reputation, but just an unlimited number of points you can earn by killing people. Like how most online shooters work with leveling up.
Balancing is what will save PvP. Not guest blogs that still ignore the main issue of PvP.
That being said, I enjoyed reading your Guest Blog and fully agreed with what it said.
Join the Deltas today!
Are you counting the posts that criticized the blog without reading it? How does one respond to that kind of narrow-thinking?
I watch the only good STO podcast STOked Radio
Want to learn more about any of the above? Let me know!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
i pretty much did all that already, in the thread linked in my sig. most of what your asking for has been posted for a long time in various help threads
the good keybind advice stuff is particular is here. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=8289771&postcount=601
To say the truth, rather than having to "program" this type of stuff, i wish Cryptic had a checkbox like options tab for PvP to do this.
Nice read General. Real good reading.
Interesting enough, though.
I watch the only good STO podcast STOked Radio
Want to learn more about any of the above? Let me know!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I watch the only good STO podcast STOked Radio
Want to learn more about any of the above? Let me know!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
im not gonna lie, those advanced binds, were i can spam 1 of many buttons but only activate exactly what i want, are like 60% of my skill
thats how i make it look easy.
I watch the only good STO podcast STOked Radio
Want to learn more about any of the above? Let me know!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's sad to see such good folks leave a game that has potential. That said, another year like the last, I don't know if PVP can survive. Lots of fragile egos from the f2p crowd and while I can understand it from my experience getting into PVP. In the end it was pretty easy finding groups of players that were helpful and friendly. IE, -X-/LORE.
With New Years Eve fast approaching, give a toast to a fresh and fun new year of EPIC fights.
And join Tyler Durden. TS: tylerdurden.failnoob.com:9988 there are 4 team channels and it's open to anyone who wants to setup matches anytime of the day or night.
Cheers!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
From a Sci Healer point of view it does not take 500m ec to make a decent pvp buiild. In fact, including the lockbox ship (in this case a recluse) id say its more around 100m and that is not nearly as grindy as you would think especially if your are throwing a little cash into it. But i say you dont even need a lockbox ship to play, if you have a good build you can do just fine in a fleet ship or even a free VA ship if your bold enough. just prepared to be defeated by the spam of the people with all the lobi consoles and ships u can dream up every once in awhile.
I have seen many PvP builds in action and some I question as how they seem to defy simple logic.
A good example would be the JHAS, I have seen this ship shield tank up to 4 ships with only EP2S 1 in play and can shield tank for a good 3 or more minutes and still not go down.
There are no team heals in these situations.
Any one care to share what Duty Officer ability(ies) would allow this.
I do know that said players were using the Borg Shield because I would see the shield heal Proc. go off.
I have never seen the Borg shield proc go off so many times and give such a large amount of shield heal to be able to keep their shields in constant white.
So somehow they were able to reduce the amount of incoming damage their shields were taking and/or they were able to out heal the amount of damage their shields were taking.
I can understand being able to shield tank 1 or 2 ships, maybe 3, but not 4.
Anyone care to share their Duty Officer, ship console(s) info to allow this.
This would be helpful to get players that don?t know a way to start thinking in terms of survivability .
I do agree that you don?t need a Lock box ship or C-Store Ship to be competitive in PvP.
I have seen the Risian corvette do some heavy fighting in PvP.
As far as I know resist consoles, aux2damp, Brace for impact only work on hull damage not shield damage. I am talking about shield tanking not hull tanking
Shield tanking not hull tanking to be clear.
I assume it is speed tanking. Shields need to be hit to take damage. Conn Officer to reduce recharge of Evasive Maneuvers. Engine Battery, Deuterium, and EPTE to fill the gaps.
agree totally, also id say it takes a large degree of patience (tho im sure most of us mmo gamers have a fair bit of that) and attitude plays a role. I know those times i get frustrated by all the spam, trolling, or whatever its best to just take a break from the pvp part for a bit (or use your own spam) otherwise i just feel like TRIBBLE. feels bad when you are giving it 110% trying to help a pug group of newbies against a premade.
Heres hoping for somekind of built in matchmaking system someday...
In regards to that JHAS you saw...
It allows me to bring up a good point.
People tend to focus on 'what is that guy doing', 'what does that guy have', 'how can do what he does', and so on. They tend to not think about...'what am I doing', 'what do I have,' 'and how can I counter what the other person is doing'. To me, realizing that simple truth can go a long way to helping a person really become an honest PvPer, and also get rid of that nasty mentality of 'I'm not winning, so it must be hax' that can prevail so easily sometimes.
Now, how was that Bug living so well? I'm not 100% sure. You mentioned he was running EPTS, probably in a basic ETPX cycle, and had the Borg shield proct most likely as well, and still taking on 4 ships at once. There are many DOFFs, gear, etc that I could talk about, any of which could've helped keep him alive.
BUT...
Look at the other side of the equation. That Bug was taking on 4 ships at once, and living quite a long time at that.
So, were those ships coordinating attacks? Tacs timing Alphas, Scis hitting the guy with SNB, etc? Or were they just wantonly firing whatever they had at him, trying to take him down without really timing anything together? I have a feeling that more than anything probably kept him alive most of all.
Don't misunderstand, I'm sure that Bug pilot had to know SOMETHING of course to keep alive, the Bug ship doesn't automatically make a person a good pilot or anything, even though it is an extremely good ship. But I doubt that it was only skill keeping him alive, it was the lack of coordination (not necessarily a lack of skill mind you) by those four shooting him.
I've seen on these forums and in the game sometimes that 'PvP is only a DPS game, and that's all that counts' when honestly, in reality, the exact opposite is true. All the DPS in the world doesn't mean squat if you cannot apply it effectively enough to actually get a kill. And that is what counts in PvP, taking out the other guy.
I'm not saying those players are bad, only that they were not able to apply their damage enough to kill him. Maybe they were going up against some really really skilled player, I don't know the details, I'm just going on what you've mentioned in the thread.