well he wants to be a captain so what i meant was i like to see a captain tell a admiral what they can and cannot do without D good reason i also do mean real life to
That comes with the rank and responsibility creep. Vice Admirals are ship commanders, not fleet commanders. The commander of a station or a particular operation derives his power not from his rank, but his position. As the duly appointed representative of Starfleet Command in the Beta Ursae sector block, Kurland can give missions. Not on his authority as a Captain, but his authority as DS9 CO.
He's probably a lot nicer to you than an Ensign, but he has the authority to do this.
That comes with the rank and responsibility creep. Vice Admirals are ship commanders, not fleet commanders. The commander of a station or a particular operation derives his power not from his rank, but his position. As the duly appointed representative of Starfleet Command in the Beta Ursae sector block, Kurland can give missions. Not on his authority as a Captain, but his authority as DS9 CO.
He's probably a lot nicer to you than an Ensign, but he has the authority to do this.
There is actually an immediate real life example I can think of on the spot.
Air wings on aircraft carriers. The CO of the airwing might be a colonel in say the Air Force, but that Naval Captain is the boss of that ship, period.
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I like to point out it cannon for Klingon Empire Generals to command ships, such as General Martok and General Chang.
And even in the Federation it wasn't completely unknown. I believe Admiral Rossi had his own ship.
I'd like to note also anyone who commands a ship is a Captain irreguardless of Military rank or lack there of.
So as an Admiral your still Captain of your ship, just as you could be a Captain and assigned to Starfleet Academy or some other shipless assignment.
And in practical term Admirals would need star ships to function and administer things in space. This isn't an earth based institution, area to be administer is massive and to get things done an Admiral would need mobility and ideally a mobile base of operations which a star ship provides.
When Kirk was talking about don't let them promote you, he was talking about posting, not rank, don't let them "promote you" to Starfleet Command, being posted to a ship is the posting you want. Doesn't matter if your an ensign or an Admiral as long as your posted to ship command, along with other possible duties like commanding a Fleet.
I like to point out it cannon for Klingon Empire Generals to command ships, such as General Martok and General Chang.
And even in the Federation it wasn't completely unknown. I believe Admiral Rossi had his own ship.
I'd like to note also anyone who commands a ship is a Captain irreguardless of Military rank or lack there of.
So as an Admiral your still Captain of your ship, just as you could be a Captain and assigned to Starfleet Academy or some other shipless assignment.
And in practical term Admirals would need star ships to function and administer things in space. This isn't an earth based institution, area to be administer is massive and to get things done an Admiral would need mobility and ideally a mobile base of operations which a star ship provides.
When Kirk was talking about don't let them promote you, he was talking about posting, not rank, don't let them "promote you" to Starfleet Command, being posted to a ship is the posting you want. Doesn't matter if your an ensign or an Admiral as long as your posted to ship command, along with other possible duties like commanding a Fleet.
i would have not thought of this unless i was watching DS9 now or like you did pointed it out about the KDF but Admiral Ross i new about him and a lot do forget that i think there is also if you count it Admiral William T. Riker commanded the Enterprise-D as his flagship explaining that "they tried to ... One of the advantages of being an Admiral is you choose your own ship." then you have the admirals at both borg engagement
Reality check: The vast majority of players don't care what rank they are so long as it is the highest available.
Most people just do not care about these details as much as you and other forum goers do. They just don't. Most people log in, play, log out. Most people put in far less time then we do as well.
If you are posting on the forums at all, you are in a minority.
As full of outrage as you may be, don't assume that anybody else cares. The raw truth is the majority of people do not take this game anywhere near as seriously as we do.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Friendly Reminder: The vast majority of players couldn't care less what the NPCs call them in the textboxes they skip through without reading. :rolleyes:
The words "Vice Admiral" are just thematically a appropriate code for "Level Cap Reached."
They'll have to come see me in my ready room, because I outrank them and they aren't in charge of any large scale operations I'm involved in.
(Besides, I never said Vice Admirals were the ONLY ship commanders.)
As Picard pointed out, when an Admiral is aboard a starship, the Captain is in charge, altho if they disobey the Admiral they could be in for some serous trouble if they were in the wrong...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Well, we can rationalize the silliness any way we see fit, but if Vice Admirals command ships, wouldn't it be the most logical of all steps to have the flagship (term used in the Star Trek sense here) be commanded by one, too?
Why not just change the little text string, optionally, for those who want it? Four hours of coding work (if that much), happiness everywhere!
Yeah, that would be logical. But not even the Vulcans are always logical when it comes to traditions, as we saw in Amok Time. And I get a kick out of outranking the Enterprise Captain.
Honestly, I'd be fine with Captain as the lvl cap, but they'd have to change the entire level structure and that is probably more complex than it sounds. Its just not important enough a nitpick to deal with when it can be written off as a cultural shift.
My point is that "flagship" in the Star Trek sense does not mean the ship with an admiral's flag on it. The Enterprise-D was the Federation's "flagship" during most of TNG, but Admirals we saw rather rarely onboard this vessel. The three flagships of the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Republic and the Federation in STO are not flagships in the "Admiral command ship" sense, but in the Star Trek sense, meaning something more like "most distinguished ship in the fleet". Which makes sense, given that it is a Star Trek game.
admiral riker love to have a word with you unless you are trying to say by him stoping the decommission of the ENT-D some how stays the flag ship just because it the ENT ya dont hold much with me admiral ross both admiral from both Borg engagement love to have a word with you
again i suggest when you see admiral General you picture in your head the word captain its not that hard
Things are always more complex than they seem to be. Yet things are doable. Remember when we had to re-enter our password every time we wanted to play another character? It was complex to change that, too - yet the dev team pulled it off.
and how many years did it take them to pull that off? been here from Jan of 2010 so you want full me
My take on it, is that its a largely honorary rank we've been granted so that we aren't ordered around by every petty tyrant in Starfleet/The KDF, and free to act in what we perceive to be the best interests of our people. But those who genuinely need our assistance are given permission to contact us requesting our aid.
But it isn't a cultural shift. See the three flagships - the most distinguished vessels of their fleets, yet all commanded by a proper Star Trek commanding officer rank.
Cultural shifts don't happen all at once. They slowly.. shift. We saw why Captain Shon got the Enterprise. He had a distinguished wartime career and most importantly happened to be an experienced commander in need of a ship at the exact time they were ready to launch the Enterprise-F. If he were to be promoted to Admiral, odds are that he'd stay in charge of that ship rather than move to a desk because the culture has been shifting to keep commanders in charge of ships as they promote. (A little odd he didn't get promoted to Rear Admiral when he got the new ship, but he's pretty clearly not as good at diplomacy and politics as the player character is.)
I don't know how Koren and Tiaru got promoted. Most likely they came into it in a normal career progression too, and would stay in charge if promoted like KDF and RR officers stay in charge of their ships once promoted.
And that's without taking into account that the player character is officially put in command of a ship at the rank of Lieutenant. So yeah, there's gonna be quite a few Captains still flying ships. The responsibility creep has been outward, not just upward.
I'm sure they could make it work. It might make Capt. Kurland disappear for a week while they try, but I'm sure they can make it work. Is it really WORTH them changing it, though? There's a lot in the game I'd rather the devs focus on.
I will say, I used to just use the Captain title on my toon and Captain's rank until I played Sphere of Influence. That episode is nicely set up for an Admiral who commands a ship. The only person you defer to is the full Ambassador, and you have two Captains and several other lower ranking people listening to your orders. And when you do get to the space part, it makes sense to put you in charge instead of the Ambassador since you're currently an active commander and Worf has been sitting outside the Great Hall a few years. After playing that, I got used to thinking of her as an Admiral and when I got used to that I got a lot more comfortable with all the Admirals running around the Dyson Sphere. (Tagging the bunnies is just weird, but I think D'Tan may have some sort of latent telepathic control power to talk us into all of this.)
It was, however, really weird to play at any character below Admiral, but that was just a special thing.
My take on it, is that its a largely honorary rank we've been granted so that we aren't ordered around by every petty tyrant in Starfleet/The KDF, and free to act in what we perceive to be the best interests of our people. But those who genuinely need our assistance are given permission to contact us requesting our aid.
Only that every little peons orders us around like he or she pleases. It doesn't help that our characters are portrayed as total and incompetent dumbasses who have to be told by somebody else to not touch the leaking plasma vent or we'll get ouchy
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If you are posting on the forums at all, you are in a minority.
Hey, I made exactly that same thought a few weeks ago or so in a thread...didn't end well. People don't like being told that kinda stuff apparently.
Anyways, I get annoyed by the 'Admiral/General' thing because I get ordered around by people clearly not equal or higher rank than me in terms of in-game lore. However, the worse thing isn't really that, it's more that, as a VA/LG I don't feel like I have any power to command OTHERS.
Like other ships you own in some kind of battle group. Think about how astoundingly awesome that would be if you had your own private little group of your ships (with all the gear, BOFF powers, and other fun stuff) that obeyed your orders, would use things when you wanted them to, etc.
It'd let us feel like we had power over something, along with giving greater usage to other ships we have.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Jonathan Archer- Captain who went on to become Fleet Admiral, later served two terms as Federation President.
James T Kirk- Captain who was promoted to Rear Admiral, later demoted to Captain again.
Jean Luc Picard- Captain, stayed there at Kirk's urging.
Benjamin Sisko- Captain, stayed there due to being an alien all along, also leaving the material plane.
Kathrine Janeway- Captain, promoted to Vice Admiral amazingly quickly upon return.
Alternate verse William T. Riker makes Full Admiral.
There are plenty of examples of main characters being made admirals of various levels. Also, I'm an Archduke, as long as people call me "your grace" I don't care what military title they call me by. Just as I'm sure his imperial majesty our Emperor or Mr. President of the Federation don't care much for a trivial military rank.
(It's a game, have fun with it. Use your imagination to fix anything you don't like.)
Edit: That is how I explain all the craziness of "being a vice admiral" ordered around by lesser ranked people. I'm here observing the captain of a ship as I tour the galaxy on a good will mission. It's my first mate Boff that is the actual captain of the ship. We just do things to help out as part of that good will mission. We can always say no but its not good for diplomatic relations between the Federation and the Free March Confederacy.
Cheers from Antonio Valerio Cortez III, Half-Celestial Archduke of the Free Marches Confederacy.
Would take being called Captain by NPC's without blinking an eye. Feels more Trek... I don't even wear the Admiral pips anymore & wearing the captain ones, because well... it's sillllyyyyy to have so many Admirals.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Sorry, I want to remain an admiral. But that doesn't mean I want to force it on everyone. Ranks should be separate titles from level so we can choose to be who we want.
There was mention of possibly changing things so that if you were using a rank-based title (Captain, Commander, Et all) then NPC's would use that to refer to you instead of your in-game rank, but that was quite some time ago and I haven't heard about it for a while.
I'm so used to gaming abstractions that I don't sweat the small stuff anymore. It's never going to be perfect, but it is good enough for me. I just re-write what doesn't jive with me in my personal fiction and move on. I like my stuff better then other peoples, anyway :P
Tho... I never quite understood why, instead of us being Lt.s in command of a ship why we weren't just whatever rank we had in the game before captain, and instead of commanding the ship we were just at the conn when we were in space missions... I can be at Lt. and pilot a ship... I don't need to be in the Captain's chair the whole damned game... You could even have a cool cutscene when your beloved Captain Kathryn Luc Siskirk dies and gives you an epic speech before you take command... Oh well a bit late for it... but what could have been...
Edit: A lot of times, when I'm on a ToS kick, I'll put on my nurses uniform, set my title to nurse, and be the lowest ranking member of my own away team, under Commander Tutorial Boff (I always forget her name, I ret-conned her to replace my old trusted XO.)
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
*Laughs again, just like on the "Space Revamp Discussion" thread, only this time, I laugh for 45 seconds instead of 30* I don't think so. *Continues giggling*
Every on screen Star Trek 'hero' about which a series revolved was a Captain.
The one long term exception was Kirk...which he lamented about in almost every scene and was finally 'demoted' back to his 'hero' rank of Captain as a reward for all his service.
I totally agree that we should all be Captain's as the highest rank (not LEVEL) obtainable in the game - except for the Fleet (guild) Leaders. They should get the Admiral title as they are actually fulfilling the role of Admiral responsibilities. (and this would bring the ration of captains and admirals in the game back to canon levels)
And as far as commanding 'pet' "fleets", Captains can do that just fine - look as Sisko. :P
We should be being addressed by NPCs by out chosen title. That way this whole rank thing is mute. Demoting the current glut of Admirals would also be a terrible thing, so grandfather them in and have all new characters cap at the Captain rank title (with again, only guild leaders getting the Admiral rank title unlocked).
ya and one who like to be admiral and not be apart of fleet ya thats going to go over well.........
and most of the time that sisko you talk about was his mission so of course he would lead the fleet........ and Admiral Ross told him that in one EP think the one to retake DS9
I think the 'majority' you speak of who are against him are the 'vocal' majority of the Forums (from rough estimates, about 5% of the game population).
did you read his title of this thread ??? something tells me no for all i know that majority he talks of is him and his 5 buddy fleet just saying
Comments
That comes with the rank and responsibility creep. Vice Admirals are ship commanders, not fleet commanders. The commander of a station or a particular operation derives his power not from his rank, but his position. As the duly appointed representative of Starfleet Command in the Beta Ursae sector block, Kurland can give missions. Not on his authority as a Captain, but his authority as DS9 CO.
He's probably a lot nicer to you than an Ensign, but he has the authority to do this.
There is actually an immediate real life example I can think of on the spot.
Air wings on aircraft carriers. The CO of the airwing might be a colonel in say the Air Force, but that Naval Captain is the boss of that ship, period.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
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And even in the Federation it wasn't completely unknown. I believe Admiral Rossi had his own ship.
I'd like to note also anyone who commands a ship is a Captain irreguardless of Military rank or lack there of.
So as an Admiral your still Captain of your ship, just as you could be a Captain and assigned to Starfleet Academy or some other shipless assignment.
And in practical term Admirals would need star ships to function and administer things in space. This isn't an earth based institution, area to be administer is massive and to get things done an Admiral would need mobility and ideally a mobile base of operations which a star ship provides.
When Kirk was talking about don't let them promote you, he was talking about posting, not rank, don't let them "promote you" to Starfleet Command, being posted to a ship is the posting you want. Doesn't matter if your an ensign or an Admiral as long as your posted to ship command, along with other possible duties like commanding a Fleet.
i would have not thought of this unless i was watching DS9 now or like you did pointed it out about the KDF but Admiral Ross i new about him and a lot do forget that i think there is also if you count it Admiral William T. Riker commanded the Enterprise-D as his flagship explaining that "they tried to ... One of the advantages of being an Admiral is you choose your own ship." then you have the admirals at both borg engagement
system Lord Baal is dead
Most people just do not care about these details as much as you and other forum goers do. They just don't. Most people log in, play, log out. Most people put in far less time then we do as well.
If you are posting on the forums at all, you are in a minority.
As full of outrage as you may be, don't assume that anybody else cares. The raw truth is the majority of people do not take this game anywhere near as seriously as we do.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
The words "Vice Admiral" are just thematically a appropriate code for "Level Cap Reached."
They'll have to come see me in my ready room, because I outrank them and they aren't in charge of any large scale operations I'm involved in.
(Besides, I never said Vice Admirals were the ONLY ship commanders.)
As Picard pointed out, when an Admiral is aboard a starship, the Captain is in charge, altho if they disobey the Admiral they could be in for some serous trouble if they were in the wrong...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
system Lord Baal is dead
yes every movie sadly counting JJ trek to every TV show and you point ?
system Lord Baal is dead
Yeah, that would be logical. But not even the Vulcans are always logical when it comes to traditions, as we saw in Amok Time. And I get a kick out of outranking the Enterprise Captain.
Honestly, I'd be fine with Captain as the lvl cap, but they'd have to change the entire level structure and that is probably more complex than it sounds. Its just not important enough a nitpick to deal with when it can be written off as a cultural shift.
admiral riker love to have a word with you
again i suggest when you see admiral General you picture in your head the word captain its not that hard
system Lord Baal is dead
and how many years did it take them to pull that off? been here from Jan of 2010 so you want full me
system Lord Baal is dead
I'll take that one step further.
"Cadet, Go to Deep Space Nine and pick up your 5 crew members(not automated DOFF or automated Bridge Officers). Don't get anyone killed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72XhdVqDT1g
Cultural shifts don't happen all at once. They slowly.. shift. We saw why Captain Shon got the Enterprise. He had a distinguished wartime career and most importantly happened to be an experienced commander in need of a ship at the exact time they were ready to launch the Enterprise-F. If he were to be promoted to Admiral, odds are that he'd stay in charge of that ship rather than move to a desk because the culture has been shifting to keep commanders in charge of ships as they promote. (A little odd he didn't get promoted to Rear Admiral when he got the new ship, but he's pretty clearly not as good at diplomacy and politics as the player character is.)
I don't know how Koren and Tiaru got promoted. Most likely they came into it in a normal career progression too, and would stay in charge if promoted like KDF and RR officers stay in charge of their ships once promoted.
And that's without taking into account that the player character is officially put in command of a ship at the rank of Lieutenant. So yeah, there's gonna be quite a few Captains still flying ships. The responsibility creep has been outward, not just upward.
I'm sure they could make it work. It might make Capt. Kurland disappear for a week while they try, but I'm sure they can make it work. Is it really WORTH them changing it, though? There's a lot in the game I'd rather the devs focus on.
I will say, I used to just use the Captain title on my toon and Captain's rank until I played Sphere of Influence. That episode is nicely set up for an Admiral who commands a ship. The only person you defer to is the full Ambassador, and you have two Captains and several other lower ranking people listening to your orders. And when you do get to the space part, it makes sense to put you in charge instead of the Ambassador since you're currently an active commander and Worf has been sitting outside the Great Hall a few years. After playing that, I got used to thinking of her as an Admiral and when I got used to that I got a lot more comfortable with all the Admirals running around the Dyson Sphere. (Tagging the bunnies is just weird, but I think D'Tan may have some sort of latent telepathic control power to talk us into all of this.)
It was, however, really weird to play at any character below Admiral, but that was just a special thing.
Only that every little peons orders us around like he or she pleases. It doesn't help that our characters are portrayed as total and incompetent dumbasses who have to be told by somebody else to not touch the leaking plasma vent or we'll get ouchy
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Hey, I made exactly that same thought a few weeks ago or so in a thread...didn't end well. People don't like being told that kinda stuff apparently.
Anyways, I get annoyed by the 'Admiral/General' thing because I get ordered around by people clearly not equal or higher rank than me in terms of in-game lore. However, the worse thing isn't really that, it's more that, as a VA/LG I don't feel like I have any power to command OTHERS.
Like other ships you own in some kind of battle group. Think about how astoundingly awesome that would be if you had your own private little group of your ships (with all the gear, BOFF powers, and other fun stuff) that obeyed your orders, would use things when you wanted them to, etc.
It'd let us feel like we had power over something, along with giving greater usage to other ships we have.
James T Kirk- Captain who was promoted to Rear Admiral, later demoted to Captain again.
Jean Luc Picard- Captain, stayed there at Kirk's urging.
Benjamin Sisko- Captain, stayed there due to being an alien all along, also leaving the material plane.
Kathrine Janeway- Captain, promoted to Vice Admiral amazingly quickly upon return.
Alternate verse William T. Riker makes Full Admiral.
There are plenty of examples of main characters being made admirals of various levels. Also, I'm an Archduke, as long as people call me "your grace" I don't care what military title they call me by. Just as I'm sure his imperial majesty our Emperor or Mr. President of the Federation don't care much for a trivial military rank.
(It's a game, have fun with it. Use your imagination to fix anything you don't like.)
Edit: That is how I explain all the craziness of "being a vice admiral" ordered around by lesser ranked people. I'm here observing the captain of a ship as I tour the galaxy on a good will mission. It's my first mate Boff that is the actual captain of the ship. We just do things to help out as part of that good will mission. We can always say no but its not good for diplomatic relations between the Federation and the Free March Confederacy.
A Starfleet with more Admirals and then captains? Seriously? People are defending that?
you know why because this is what do you call them thing you play with controller? ah ya a GAME!!!!!!!
system Lord Baal is dead
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I'm so used to gaming abstractions that I don't sweat the small stuff anymore. It's never going to be perfect, but it is good enough for me. I just re-write what doesn't jive with me in my personal fiction and move on. I like my stuff better then other peoples, anyway :P
Tho... I never quite understood why, instead of us being Lt.s in command of a ship why we weren't just whatever rank we had in the game before captain, and instead of commanding the ship we were just at the conn when we were in space missions... I can be at Lt. and pilot a ship... I don't need to be in the Captain's chair the whole damned game... You could even have a cool cutscene when your beloved Captain Kathryn Luc Siskirk dies and gives you an epic speech before you take command... Oh well a bit late for it... but what could have been...
Edit: A lot of times, when I'm on a ToS kick, I'll put on my nurses uniform, set my title to nurse, and be the lowest ranking member of my own away team, under Commander Tutorial Boff (I always forget her name, I ret-conned her to replace my old trusted XO.)
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
system Lord Baal is dead
ya and one who like to be admiral and not be apart of fleet ya thats going to go over well.........
and most of the time that sisko you talk about was his mission so of course he would lead the fleet........ and Admiral Ross told him that in one EP think the one to retake DS9
system Lord Baal is dead
did you read his title of this thread ??? something tells me no for all i know that majority he talks of is him and his 5 buddy fleet just saying
system Lord Baal is dead
system Lord Baal is dead