i stated that in my first post, thats not my point here. ive made my point very clear on what it it. how does it stack up against faw. you claim that it cant be tested while i call bs on that. with that type of attitude tsi would never have discovered csv was op back then when the majority of their premade matches was faw...........
and i only came and asked aldo being pandas is a pvp fleet. i was stupid to assume you guys test anything so gi.
for all you know csv could infact out dps any faw build out there. and you have no proof to even oppose that idea since its NEVER BEEN TESTED.
i stated that in my first post, thats not my point here. ive made my point very clear on what it it. how does it stack up against faw. you claim that it cant be tested while i call bs on that. with that type of attitude tsi would never have discovered csv was op back then when the majority of their premade matches was faw...........
and i only came and asked aldo being pandas is a pvp fleet. i was stupid to assume you guys test anything so gi.
for all you know csv could infact out dps any faw build out there. and you have no proof to even oppose that idea since its NEVER BEEN TESTED.
Even if it could that's not the end of it b/c of all the other differences between the 2 powers and the type of weapons they effect mentioned in my other post.
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Even if it could that's not the end of it b/c of all the other differences between the 2 powers and the type of weapons they effect mentioned in my other post.
CSV is a terrible AOE, bottom line. At least in light of faw.
It would be fine if all the games AOEs followed the same pattern... but they don't we have FAW.
SOME cannons (DHC not singles dc or turrets) do more dmg at very short ranges. 3K or less. Once you get over 6k single arrays in fact start doing more dmg then a DHC... never mind a turret or single cannon.
CSV targets added targets in a cone arc based off your main target... and your cannons only fire at that target if they are in fact lined up. So you have to align yourself to have a firing arc on a target... and then try to line it so the secondary targets are with in a 130 degree (or so arc off your target).
Could you line that up x 5 people in a premade from cloak... everyone getting into optimal distance of lets say 5k... and everyone hitting an entire 5 man team of targets.
Bottom line NO you can't. Go and find the old GOD videos on youtube if they are still there... those guys managed to get 3-4 guys lined up not to bad. The only thing that made it work then though was of course a bugged version of CSV that was doing 3x the dmg it was supposed to.
Hey I have an idea... lets not fix faw at all... lets just bring back Scattey Volley from 2010. lol (then no one will ever run Rapid fire again because faw will do 3x as much dmg to even single targets)
Faw is > then CSV for the following.
1) Beams have 50% less range fall off
2) Beams have over 200 degree wider arcs
3) Faw requires no target and will fire on anything in weapon arc at one time
4) Beam cycles have odd interplays with power overcapping
5) FAW 3 is a LT Cmd skill... CSV 3 is Commander
6) Beam weapons do not require you to load low dmg verisons to engage all weapons. (They even now have at least one 360 beam and it looses nothing in terms of base dmg)
Its really can't even be argued. If it was a plus minus on paper we could argue... it isn't though its multiple plus on the side of beam faw.
I like to think I do a fairly good job of building ships... for PvE my personal infected DPS recoreds (with current none broken builds)... Cannons - 22k Torps 24k Beams 30k... looking at that I know some people will say the beams are hitting lots of targets not taking dmg and stuff.... and they would be right. To be honest though my beam build was half hearted... I ran one A2B instead of 2... I refuse to run EPTW... I didn't go and pop weapons battaries, in short I threw the beam built together... where as the cannon and torp boats are Extreme min max territory... I know people that have hit more like 50k with beams... and I have heard rumors of higher.
What they could do would be to reduce the bonus dmg faw gives, it would still be powerful for us and we would use it, it would still be boost to dps since we woulnt need to switch targets, and it would solve the dmg done to single target, rest being up to the other players themselves if they survive or not.
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Should we really have skills in the game though that don't require you to even target something ?
Even if all it did was = beam dmg to having no buffs but did the disco ball thing... putting it on 3-5 ships in a STF style map or PvP map makes them a joke.
It seems to me Cryptic has been starting to get that they can't have new things ramp up and stack on a team... look at newer things like Elachi Procs and Secondary Deflector debuffs... thye DO NOT stack with a team spamming them.
Cryptic is starting to get it... I would think with that in mind they must see how having massive AOE no target required aoes is broken.
well thanks for getting to part of my issue. CSV is looked down on. but honestly when is the last time it was used? when people tryed to just max out the dps on it? its so over looked and im curious as to how it would stack up against faw. now maybe i should not have posted in a pvp fourm post since most of what im talking about is geared to pve. reason i dont say pvp is because what teams would agree not to bring a sci or engy. well i guess engy dont count since people dont generally bring engys into pvp.
if players with beams can push out 70k, my guess is csv could push out between 55-64k. and 64k is playing it safe. i think it can be pushed out higher. not by much.
now if people were really reading the others that have commented on what i was talking about, they would notice the crazy high dps from faw is not just due to faw. faw is not op. its the mechanics in the back round that gets faw to be crazy high. i still think faw is good. not going to lie.
but to say csv, which has been hugely over looked will tend to blow? i highly doubt this. and hus, it was zorena and (forgot the others guys name) that would line up declaok with csv3 and own a 5man team. insta killing. which today faw is not doing AT ALL!!!
but ill try to get a group and see just how high we can get csv up too. i just have a hard time believing dhc are not king like may people claim. remember there are other types of aoe in this game. i dont understand why you cant compare them in a side by side line up.
like torp spread, faw and csv. sure you can compare them. why not? numbers dont lie.
i can show you rar damage and hull resist and bleed on each one.
but to say faw is the best tact power in this game?????????? how?????? lmao you never even seen how well csv can do. never even parsed torp spread. just to say torp spread sucks dont cut it either. when im asked about it, i give numbers. and i then give numbers on other abilities as well.
maybe im just very tired of the whole "cause i said so" with out backing it up by pure numbers.
What they could do would be to reduce the bonus dmg faw gives, it would still be powerful for us and we would use it, it would still be boost to dps since we woulnt need to switch targets, and it would solve the dmg done to single target, rest being up to the other players themselves if they survive or not.
ever hear of more then one thing is always bad? 1 faw boat alone is not the problem. its when you have 3 or more that are hitting the same targets. its no longer spreading around. so rep passives and everything else just compunds the problem.
I agree it would be nice if someone did some really intensive side by side testing with CSV and FAW.
I know how it will go but perhaps showing Cryptic just how out of wack the aoe skills are in relation to each other is some of the ammo they need to get it changed into a skill that works with out being the silly skill it is. Where 1 is annoying 2 is painful and 5 is GG.
i stated that in my first post, thats not my point here. ive made my point very clear on what it it. how does it stack up against faw. you claim that it cant be tested while i call bs on that. with that type of attitude tsi would never have discovered csv was op back then when the majority of their premade matches was faw...........
and i only came and asked aldo being pandas is a pvp fleet. i was stupid to assume you guys test anything so gi.
for all you know csv could infact out dps any faw build out there. and you have no proof to even oppose that idea since its NEVER BEEN TESTED.
1. A console that increases accuracy by 10% which is only available to Beams, Favors Faw.
2. Cannon drop-off damage in terms of range is effecting Cannons way more then Beams, Favors Faw.
3. Possibilty of Beam Overcapping and Cutter+Nukara Drain resist affects full beam boats much more then it does cannons. Again Favors FaW.
Explanation: Once upon a time the penalty for having 8 beams full broadsiding was alot greater, where cannons were alot more efficient back in the old days, they had higher arc limitations and high damage dropoff at high range for compensation. Thus you also need to be closer to target for higher impact. Simple huh?
4. For single cannons we're talking a wide arc, but Single cannons are simply ****. DHC's have to deal with a 45 arc, same story for Scatter volley. A beam boat, can go DBB's, full arrays, or simply but on 360 arc beams these days. Again, all of this favors FaW.
5. Beams have the advantage of hitting instantaneously. Torps, Cannons etc all have travel to time deal with.
6. Forgot about the mightly Z-axis exploit. (Not an exploit really, but still favors FaW/Beams again.)
There. Please feel free to make any corrections or counterreactions
well thanks for getting to part of my issue. CSV is looked down on. but honestly when is the last time it was used? when people tryed to just max out the dps on it? its so over looked and im curious as to how it would stack up against faw. now maybe i should not have posted in a pvp fourm post since most of what im talking about is geared to pve. reason i dont say pvp is because what teams would agree not to bring a sci or engy. well i guess engy dont count since people dont generally bring engys into pvp.
if players with beams can push out 70k, my guess is csv could push out between 55-64k. and 64k is playing it safe. i think it can be pushed out higher. not by much.
now if people were really reading the others that have commented on what i was talking about, they would notice the crazy high dps from faw is not just due to faw. faw is not op. its the mechanics in the back round that gets faw to be crazy high. i still think faw is good. not going to lie.
but to say csv, which has been hugely over looked will tend to blow? i highly doubt this. and hus, it was zorena and (forgot the others guys name) that would line up declaok with csv3 and own a 5man team. insta killing. which today faw is not doing AT ALL!!!
but ill try to get a group and see just how high we can get csv up too. i just have a hard time believing dhc are not king like may people claim. remember there are other types of aoe in this game. i dont understand why you cant compare them in a side by side line up.
like torp spread, faw and csv. sure you can compare them. why not? numbers dont lie.
i can show you rar damage and hull resist and bleed on each one.
but to say faw is the best tact power in this game?????????? how?????? lmao you never even seen how well csv can do. never even parsed torp spread. just to say torp spread sucks dont cut it either. when im asked about it, i give numbers. and i then give numbers on other abilities as well.
maybe im just very tired of the whole "cause i said so" with out backing it up by pure numbers.
In general cannon builds took it on the chin when fleet shields came out (w/the exception of KDF E-fleet canons). CVS was used w/Aux2batt prior to that. I know b/c I did it w/battle cruisers and KDF Vet ship.
Torp Spread is not uncommon b/c it never misses and there are torps w/nasty procs. But, people in general complain about torps b/c the window for applying them is much smaller than any other weapon type b/c of the shield reducing their damage.
As far as pure cannon builds (KDF E-fleet excluded), they build up resists the fastest vs elite fleet shields b/c of the turrets 4x hit per cycle and turrets are the weakest energy weapon damage type.
I think you'd have a hard time even in pugs team wiping w/CVS. The arc is too narrow and the damage has travel time and it's reduced w/distance. Both factions have BC available now, and there are a lot of ways to keep moving and jump out of the way, eg 2x sing powers and console.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
1. A console that increases accuracy by 10% which is only available to Beams, Favors Faw.
actually cannons can get 2.5% extra acc as well per tact console i believe. not that i would run them.
but let me clear the air by saying this is not related to pvp at all. im sure this is the third time saying this.
one of the factors for making my whole csv ( and trust me i have many) is to divert some attention off of faw and get the chatter to csv and torp spread and get people to comment on that. its a tactic that actually worked for ground pvp related stuff and got a few changes made.
i figured if people started to realize how other tact related bo powers paled in comparison maybe people would start asking the devs to fine tune those up to par with faw. face it, power creep is here to stay. faw will not be changed. and its a bit odd that power creep chose faw to favor the most.
while i may not have been as tactful as a few people i know that got some ground stuff worked out, i did "kinda" get people to state how csv lacks. but again to what degree, i do not know. none of us truly know. but hey if people put that effort into getting the max out of faw, i please ask to try that with csv. please post results. put massive effort into it. then do it with torps. if you just come to the forums and whine and moan about faw nothing is going to change. your just going to post more nerf this nerf that and the devs will sit back and do nothing. the pve'ers are going to snap back at pvp'ers. its a mess.
BUT, if you talk about the other powers that lack you will see that support will actually build up. even the pve'ers will hop in to post support. i know this to be fact from the ground powers in an old thread.
devs dont want nerfs to be honest. its the power creep. i mean come on people, you read this in dev blogs. even jesse had stated this in opvp. tho i cant remember his exact words but it was to that degree. dstalh always talked about better more powerful ships. you know the trend. even if you dont agree with it, try to change its course for the better. talk about things that need to be brought up to par. trust me, its for the better. look at why we got bort to check into beams with mods in relation to faw. it was much much harder when asking for tric nerfs correct?
even if you dont like the devs or how they do things, well guess what???? they call the shots. mostly over the years you say they never listened to pvp'ers right? well....pvp'ers mostly ask for nerfs in a growing mmo. a growing mmo gains power creep. not degrades.
this is really all i have to say. im done here. kinda sad i could not really "bait" anyone into a real debate on the topic of csv. even more sad people would not even take it up to prove if csv lacks or is actually nice. well done gi, pvp'ers. the so called pros cant even talk about other aspects of the game that lacks. they just avoid it like the plague. the truth is you guys talk with no claims or even proof. why would the devs really listen? you tell them x,y,znd z is op yet never told them if a,b,or c is the same or lacks in comparison.
the only decent thing ive ever seen talked about is tt verse delta and beta. and to cut the clear duration. people were clear with what the problem is and how it affects game play. the pages on faw a2b and dem...........yeah not so good. you never compared it to anything else we have in game.
actually cannons can get 2.5% extra acc as well per tact console i believe. not that i would run them.
but let me clear the air by saying this is not related to pvp at all. im sure this is the third time saying this.
one of the factors for making my whole csv ( and trust me i have many) is to divert some attention off of faw and get the chatter to csv and torp spread and get people to comment on that. its a tactic that actually worked for ground pvp related stuff and got a few changes made.
i figured if people started to realize how other tact related bo powers paled in comparison maybe people would start asking the devs to fine tune those up to par with faw. face it, power creep is here to stay. faw will not be changed. and its a bit odd that power creep chose faw to favor the most.
while i may not have been as tactful as a few people i know that got some ground stuff worked out, i did "kinda" get people to state how csv lacks. but again to what degree, i do not know. none of us truly know. but hey if people put that effort into getting the max out of faw, i please ask to try that with csv. please post results. put massive effort into it. then do it with torps. if you just come to the forums and whine and moan about faw nothing is going to change. your just going to post more nerf this nerf that and the devs will sit back and do nothing. the pve'ers are going to snap back at pvp'ers. its a mess.
BUT, if you talk about the other powers that lack you will see that support will actually build up. even the pve'ers will hop in to post support. i know this to be fact from the ground powers in an old thread.
devs dont want nerfs to be honest. its the power creep. i mean come on people, you read this in dev blogs. even jesse had stated this in opvp. tho i cant remember his exact words but it was to that degree. dstalh always talked about better more powerful ships. you know the trend. even if you dont agree with it, try to change its course for the better. talk about things that need to be brought up to par. trust me, its for the better. look at why we got bort to check into beams with mods in relation to faw. it was much much harder when asking for tric nerfs correct?
even if you dont like the devs or how they do things, well guess what???? they call the shots. mostly over the years you say they never listened to pvp'ers right? well....pvp'ers mostly ask for nerfs in a growing mmo. a growing mmo gains power creep. not degrades.
this is really all i have to say. im done here. kinda sad i could not really "bait" anyone into a real debate on the topic of csv. even more sad people would not even take it up to prove if csv lacks or is actually nice. well done gi, pvp'ers. the so called pros cant even talk about other aspects of the game that lacks. they just avoid it like the plague. the truth is you guys talk with no claims or even proof. why would the devs really listen? you tell them x,y,znd z is op yet never told them if a,b,or c is the same or lacks in comparison.
the only decent thing ive ever seen talked about is tt verse delta and beta. and to cut the clear duration. people were clear with what the problem is and how it affects game play. the pages on faw a2b and dem...........yeah not so good. you never compared it to anything else we have in game.
Because it's been done. DPS caps out at about 25k on CSV optimized builds. A FAW scimi can hit 60k. There ya go. That's the reason DPS teams switched to FAW.
Because it's been done. DPS caps out at about 25k on CSV optimized builds. A FAW scimi can hit 60k. There ya go. That's the reason DPS teams switched to FAW.
wow you are so wrong.............i was told a pure turret defiant can push over 20k with beta and csv3. and a scmi can do 70k
so can beams. I dont see your point? Back to square one.
Beams get more acc.
well you said only beams can get more acc, i just pointed out the fact cannons can as well.
and no not square one. and to be honest i wish true testers in this game posted. cause the rest of you guys i think post for post count
Sorry, should have been more specific. I'm talking about sustained DPS, not spike DPS.
i did say it was pure turents right. now i dont know if your talking pvp pve here. i have to assume pve cause you really cant test in a pvp setting. just too much things going on. then again you can que a 1v1 and take off gear and do a true test. you have to remember the people pushing 70k is actually a team effort. faw beta ect. thoes guys go max dps and lowest times. i never understood why so much effort till now to be honest.
the one place CSV works better then FAW is NWS. faw bleeds to many shots to targets behind you to other groups of npcs. it somehow seems to kill npcs more quickly.
1 thing to remember is that CSV has a maximum number of hits per a period of time, and you nedd a LOT of seperate targets in front of you for it to fire every single possible shot. FAW only needs 2 targts to fire its maximum number of shots. this is why CSV is 'not as good', and becase how sensitive it is to range. the closer you are the smaller space targets can possibly fit in. so at peak damage range not much can fit in front of you
actually cannons can get 2.5% extra acc as well per tact console i believe. not that i would run them.
but let me clear the air by saying this is not related to pvp at all. im sure this is the third time saying this.
one of the factors for making my whole csv ( and trust me i have many) is to divert some attention off of faw and get the chatter to csv and torp spread and get people to comment on that. its a tactic that actually worked for ground pvp related stuff and got a few changes made.
i figured if people started to realize how other tact related bo powers paled in comparison maybe people would start asking the devs to fine tune those up to par with faw. face it, power creep is here to stay. faw will not be changed. and its a bit odd that power creep chose faw to favor the most.
while i may not have been as tactful as a few people i know that got some ground stuff worked out, i did "kinda" get people to state how csv lacks. but again to what degree, i do not know. none of us truly know. but hey if people put that effort into getting the max out of faw, i please ask to try that with csv. please post results. put massive effort into it. then do it with torps. if you just come to the forums and whine and moan about faw nothing is going to change. your just going to post more nerf this nerf that and the devs will sit back and do nothing. the pve'ers are going to snap back at pvp'ers. its a mess.
BUT, if you talk about the other powers that lack you will see that support will actually build up. even the pve'ers will hop in to post support. i know this to be fact from the ground powers in an old thread.
devs dont want nerfs to be honest. its the power creep. i mean come on people, you read this in dev blogs. even jesse had stated this in opvp. tho i cant remember his exact words but it was to that degree. dstalh always talked about better more powerful ships. you know the trend. even if you dont agree with it, try to change its course for the better. talk about things that need to be brought up to par. trust me, its for the better. look at why we got bort to check into beams with mods in relation to faw. it was much much harder when asking for tric nerfs correct?
even if you dont like the devs or how they do things, well guess what???? they call the shots. mostly over the years you say they never listened to pvp'ers right? well....pvp'ers mostly ask for nerfs in a growing mmo. a growing mmo gains power creep. not degrades.
this is really all i have to say. im done here. kinda sad i could not really "bait" anyone into a real debate on the topic of csv. even more sad people would not even take it up to prove if csv lacks or is actually nice. well done gi, pvp'ers. the so called pros cant even talk about other aspects of the game that lacks. they just avoid it like the plague. the truth is you guys talk with no claims or even proof. why would the devs really listen? you tell them x,y,znd z is op yet never told them if a,b,or c is the same or lacks in comparison.
the only decent thing ive ever seen talked about is tt verse delta and beta. and to cut the clear duration. people were clear with what the problem is and how it affects game play. the pages on faw a2b and dem...........yeah not so good. you never compared it to anything else we have in game.
There's a uni console that gives +10% acc to beams.
You post in PvP forum expect that response.
Cannons are worse in PvE b/c they have a more narrow arc and relatively short range requiring more time to position ships properly and have lower time on target, cannons have travel time (resulting in wasted volleys).
Torps are bad in PvE b/c they require mixing damage console types if you're going w/a hybrid build, or they'll under preform.
Paying for power is bad, but like you said not going away. But, toning the extremes of it down will make a playing environment that's more diverse. When one build type has few counters and the most damage it's bad for variety.
Let's be honest you're not looking for diversity you're looking to pivot the conversation away from something being nerfed, which devs don't like to do, but have done before and mainly b/c of PvE completion times.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
the one place CSV works better then FAW is NWS. faw bleeds to many shots to targets behind you to other groups of npcs. it somehow seems to kill npcs more quickly.
funny part is faw even works better in NWS then csv. yes you hit separate targets but so is the next guy. so i may hit 3 targets but my team mate is going to hit the same 3.
ill be honest i dont know how to bring csv on par with faw. the devs need to figure that one out. but csv needs some serous work to be as good as faw. with all the tact powers to chose from a player should WANT to decide if they want to run faw or csv. not say well csv sucks and faw is much more impressive. torp spread is in worse shape.
funny part is faw even works better in NWS then csv. yes you hit separate targets but so is the next guy. so i may hit 3 targets but my team mate is going to hit the same 3.
ill be honest i dont know how to bring csv on par with faw. the devs need to figure that one out. but csv needs some serous work to be as good as faw. with all the tact powers to chose from a player should WANT to decide if they want to run faw or csv. not say well csv sucks and faw is much more impressive. torp spread is in worse shape.
FAW doesn't need nerfed. Overcapping does. It basically mitigates the penalty (power drain) that beams take for having huge arcs and next to zero damage drop off because of range. If Beams had their penalty in place in a manner that couldn't be circumvented, then there would be a real decision to make.
Let's be honest you're not looking for diversity you're looking to pivot the conversation away from something being nerfed, which devs don't like to do, but have done before and mainly b/c of PvE completion times.
really? not sure how you got to that. everyone that knows me knows im an escourt user since closed beta. i only run cannons. i do have a wells but i like my escourts. but if you think you have a good chance of getting faw nerfed then gl to you. but if you show the devs other tact powers are lacking in light of faw you have a better chance at getting them tuned.
@brandonfl yes over capping is part of the problem. its not the only problem. and i dont really want to go into every little detail that makes faw a problem. i doubt we all want to write a book. but in all these years we havent noticed the problem as much as we do now. its only going to get "worse"? should i even use that word? probably better to just use power creep. but its how everything is worded. i know this to be true. my fleet leader got a doff "fixed" by getting it to go over borts head straight to the top. but its all how you present it. and trust me the way its getting presented on forums is the wrong way to go about it.
instead show the devs other things that lack compared to something thats very good.
NWS is the dream map for CSV... the targets are all grouped and they all mostly stay that way... and one gw fixes that issue anyway. It is the only map that favors CSV simply because its setup that way.
Even with that I have heard of people running DBB faw in no win with nice results as well.
I admit that I havn't done something like run Infected 3 times through with a csv and a faw build to compare them.
When I say my record cannon build is around 22k though that is with a copy of faw 1... Rapid 2 x 2 with a CSV 1... and I do use the CSV when I have grouped NPCs.... I get that with CSV 3 the dmg would go up no doubt... I just no and I don't need to test it to know it that I won't go up to 60k.
Regardless my issue with faw isn't that CSV has a fraction of the potential.
My issue with faw is all completely about faw... no target required bothers me badly. No limitation on arc bothers me badly. Very minor limitations on optimal range bothers me badly as well... Faw is able to hit targets both fore and afte of a user equally... and optimaly out to 8k. That is a 16k swath of 80%+ dmg.
That mechanic is why NWS does favor CSV as DDIS was saying hitting targets behind you isn't what you want in that map in general, you want them to all stay grouped up.
To me the mechanic is just broken in theory more then anything else... and IMO (yes it is an opinion). Its the mechanic itself that makes FAW look so bad when you start throwin in all the creep.
If Cryptic was to release a console tommorow that gave all energy weapons +20% dmg... FAW beams would benifit the most as they spend almost 100% of FAWs uptime shooting at something. Where as CSV due to arc limitations is going to spend as much time on target as the pilot is good at setting that up. (I don't think even the best of us are going to do better then 75% at most)... which would mean FAW gains more from the boost.
That has happened with every single power creep item in the game... it boosts faw the most... so multiply it by X number of power creep items and rep bonuses ect ect... and you end up with a skill that is magnitudes better then everything else.
It is the mechanic that is the problem... not DMG mods on it... or the even the number of shots or how much more beams gel with overcaping. It has to do with 100% uptime on target... and how the little minor buffs everywhere all end up boost that skill more then others.
really? not sure how you got to that. everyone that knows me knows im an escourt user since closed beta. i only run cannons. i do have a wells but i like my escourts. but if you think you have a good chance of getting faw nerfed then gl to you. but if you show the devs other tact powers are lacking in light of faw you have a better chance at getting them tuned.
I've never asked for FaW to be nerfed, re-read my posts in this thread.
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funny part is faw even works better in NWS then csv. yes you hit separate targets but so is the next guy. so i may hit 3 targets but my team mate is going to hit the same 3.
ill be honest i dont know how to bring csv on par with faw. the devs need to figure that one out. but csv needs some serous work to be as good as faw. with all the tact powers to chose from a player should WANT to decide if they want to run faw or csv. not say well csv sucks and faw is much more impressive. torp spread is in worse shape.
100% not true. CSV is still the best option for NWS as all it's shots hit the same 3 targets, the whole principle behind the builds most commonly used is to kill 1 or 2 small targets while everything is bunched up and rely on warp core breaches for the rest.
If you're doing NWS with FAW you need people capable of 20k+ while with CSV you only need people capable of 8k.
That's without mentioning the chaff that eats up shots with FAW, best counter to FAW is to spam pets or use things like scramble and FBP. Other notable options are drains but they're non specific counters to a lot of things.
Weird thing though is people consider AMS cheese, yet in the situation of FAW being spammed it is a viable counter, in fact I would say it's the best counter an escort has for it as they don't have to spend a boff ability on scrambles or a weak sauce FBP. Makes you wonder what other consoles and items people consider cheese are actually valid counters to other things.
Oh and for the record, highest cannon build dps I've heard of is 34k but I have a feeling that might go up as it was before spire consoles afaik.
NWS is the dream map for CSV... the targets are all grouped and they all mostly stay that way... and one gw fixes that issue anyway. It is the only map that favors CSV simply because its setup that way.
Even with that I have heard of people running DBB faw in no win with nice results as well.
I've never asked for FaW to be nerfed, re-read my posts in this thread.
no, you accused us of wanting it nerfed instead of CSV being tuned to match
Beams need their penalty back in place in a meaningful way, that is how I suggest bringing the 2 powers into line with each other so that captains have to make a decision
funny part is faw even works better in NWS then csv. yes you hit separate targets but so is the next guy. so i may hit 3 targets but my team mate is going to hit the same 3.
ill be honest i dont know how to bring csv on par with faw. the devs need to figure that one out. but csv needs some serous work to be as good as faw. with all the tact powers to chose from a player should WANT to decide if they want to run faw or csv. not say well csv sucks and faw is much more impressive. torp spread is in worse shape.
everyone needs to be runing beams though, if anyone runs beams.
no, you accused us of wanting it nerfed instead of CSV being tuned to match
Beams need their penalty back in place in a meaningful way, that is how I suggest bringing the 2 powers into line with each other so that captains have to make a decision
really?????? i can go into all these pages and opvp and see everyone talking about nerf faw.
Comments
I'm still not sure what your point.
Even if it could that's not the end of it b/c of all the other differences between the 2 powers and the type of weapons they effect mentioned in my other post.
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Exactly, that's my point.
It would be fine if all the games AOEs followed the same pattern... but they don't we have FAW.
SOME cannons (DHC not singles dc or turrets) do more dmg at very short ranges. 3K or less. Once you get over 6k single arrays in fact start doing more dmg then a DHC... never mind a turret or single cannon.
CSV targets added targets in a cone arc based off your main target... and your cannons only fire at that target if they are in fact lined up. So you have to align yourself to have a firing arc on a target... and then try to line it so the secondary targets are with in a 130 degree (or so arc off your target).
Could you line that up x 5 people in a premade from cloak... everyone getting into optimal distance of lets say 5k... and everyone hitting an entire 5 man team of targets.
Bottom line NO you can't. Go and find the old GOD videos on youtube if they are still there... those guys managed to get 3-4 guys lined up not to bad. The only thing that made it work then though was of course a bugged version of CSV that was doing 3x the dmg it was supposed to.
Hey I have an idea... lets not fix faw at all... lets just bring back Scattey Volley from 2010. lol (then no one will ever run Rapid fire again because faw will do 3x as much dmg to even single targets)
Faw is > then CSV for the following.
1) Beams have 50% less range fall off
2) Beams have over 200 degree wider arcs
3) Faw requires no target and will fire on anything in weapon arc at one time
4) Beam cycles have odd interplays with power overcapping
5) FAW 3 is a LT Cmd skill... CSV 3 is Commander
6) Beam weapons do not require you to load low dmg verisons to engage all weapons. (They even now have at least one 360 beam and it looses nothing in terms of base dmg)
Its really can't even be argued. If it was a plus minus on paper we could argue... it isn't though its multiple plus on the side of beam faw.
I like to think I do a fairly good job of building ships... for PvE my personal infected DPS recoreds (with current none broken builds)... Cannons - 22k Torps 24k Beams 30k... looking at that I know some people will say the beams are hitting lots of targets not taking dmg and stuff.... and they would be right. To be honest though my beam build was half hearted... I ran one A2B instead of 2... I refuse to run EPTW... I didn't go and pop weapons battaries, in short I threw the beam built together... where as the cannon and torp boats are Extreme min max territory... I know people that have hit more like 50k with beams... and I have heard rumors of higher.
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Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Even if all it did was = beam dmg to having no buffs but did the disco ball thing... putting it on 3-5 ships in a STF style map or PvP map makes them a joke.
It seems to me Cryptic has been starting to get that they can't have new things ramp up and stack on a team... look at newer things like Elachi Procs and Secondary Deflector debuffs... thye DO NOT stack with a team spamming them.
Cryptic is starting to get it... I would think with that in mind they must see how having massive AOE no target required aoes is broken.
well thanks for getting to part of my issue. CSV is looked down on. but honestly when is the last time it was used? when people tryed to just max out the dps on it? its so over looked and im curious as to how it would stack up against faw. now maybe i should not have posted in a pvp fourm post since most of what im talking about is geared to pve. reason i dont say pvp is because what teams would agree not to bring a sci or engy. well i guess engy dont count since people dont generally bring engys into pvp.
if players with beams can push out 70k, my guess is csv could push out between 55-64k. and 64k is playing it safe. i think it can be pushed out higher. not by much.
now if people were really reading the others that have commented on what i was talking about, they would notice the crazy high dps from faw is not just due to faw. faw is not op. its the mechanics in the back round that gets faw to be crazy high. i still think faw is good. not going to lie.
but to say csv, which has been hugely over looked will tend to blow? i highly doubt this. and hus, it was zorena and (forgot the others guys name) that would line up declaok with csv3 and own a 5man team. insta killing. which today faw is not doing AT ALL!!!
but ill try to get a group and see just how high we can get csv up too. i just have a hard time believing dhc are not king like may people claim. remember there are other types of aoe in this game. i dont understand why you cant compare them in a side by side line up.
like torp spread, faw and csv. sure you can compare them. why not? numbers dont lie.
i can show you rar damage and hull resist and bleed on each one.
but to say faw is the best tact power in this game?????????? how?????? lmao you never even seen how well csv can do. never even parsed torp spread. just to say torp spread sucks dont cut it either. when im asked about it, i give numbers. and i then give numbers on other abilities as well.
maybe im just very tired of the whole "cause i said so" with out backing it up by pure numbers.
ever hear of more then one thing is always bad? 1 faw boat alone is not the problem. its when you have 3 or more that are hitting the same targets. its no longer spreading around. so rep passives and everything else just compunds the problem.
I know how it will go but perhaps showing Cryptic just how out of wack the aoe skills are in relation to each other is some of the ammo they need to get it changed into a skill that works with out being the silly skill it is. Where 1 is annoying 2 is painful and 5 is GG.
1. A console that increases accuracy by 10% which is only available to Beams, Favors Faw.
2. Cannon drop-off damage in terms of range is effecting Cannons way more then Beams, Favors Faw.
3. Possibilty of Beam Overcapping and Cutter+Nukara Drain resist affects full beam boats much more then it does cannons. Again Favors FaW.
Explanation: Once upon a time the penalty for having 8 beams full broadsiding was alot greater, where cannons were alot more efficient back in the old days, they had higher arc limitations and high damage dropoff at high range for compensation. Thus you also need to be closer to target for higher impact. Simple huh?
4. For single cannons we're talking a wide arc, but Single cannons are simply ****. DHC's have to deal with a 45 arc, same story for Scatter volley. A beam boat, can go DBB's, full arrays, or simply but on 360 arc beams these days. Again, all of this favors FaW.
5. Beams have the advantage of hitting instantaneously. Torps, Cannons etc all have travel to time deal with.
6. Forgot about the mightly Z-axis exploit. (Not an exploit really, but still favors FaW/Beams again.)
There. Please feel free to make any corrections
In general cannon builds took it on the chin when fleet shields came out (w/the exception of KDF E-fleet canons). CVS was used w/Aux2batt prior to that. I know b/c I did it w/battle cruisers and KDF Vet ship.
Torp Spread is not uncommon b/c it never misses and there are torps w/nasty procs. But, people in general complain about torps b/c the window for applying them is much smaller than any other weapon type b/c of the shield reducing their damage.
As far as pure cannon builds (KDF E-fleet excluded), they build up resists the fastest vs elite fleet shields b/c of the turrets 4x hit per cycle and turrets are the weakest energy weapon damage type.
I think you'd have a hard time even in pugs team wiping w/CVS. The arc is too narrow and the damage has travel time and it's reduced w/distance. Both factions have BC available now, and there are a lot of ways to keep moving and jump out of the way, eg 2x sing powers and console.
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actually cannons can get 2.5% extra acc as well per tact console i believe. not that i would run them.
but let me clear the air by saying this is not related to pvp at all. im sure this is the third time saying this.
one of the factors for making my whole csv ( and trust me i have many) is to divert some attention off of faw and get the chatter to csv and torp spread and get people to comment on that. its a tactic that actually worked for ground pvp related stuff and got a few changes made.
i figured if people started to realize how other tact related bo powers paled in comparison maybe people would start asking the devs to fine tune those up to par with faw. face it, power creep is here to stay. faw will not be changed. and its a bit odd that power creep chose faw to favor the most.
while i may not have been as tactful as a few people i know that got some ground stuff worked out, i did "kinda" get people to state how csv lacks. but again to what degree, i do not know. none of us truly know. but hey if people put that effort into getting the max out of faw, i please ask to try that with csv. please post results. put massive effort into it. then do it with torps. if you just come to the forums and whine and moan about faw nothing is going to change. your just going to post more nerf this nerf that and the devs will sit back and do nothing. the pve'ers are going to snap back at pvp'ers. its a mess.
BUT, if you talk about the other powers that lack you will see that support will actually build up. even the pve'ers will hop in to post support. i know this to be fact from the ground powers in an old thread.
devs dont want nerfs to be honest. its the power creep. i mean come on people, you read this in dev blogs. even jesse had stated this in opvp. tho i cant remember his exact words but it was to that degree. dstalh always talked about better more powerful ships. you know the trend. even if you dont agree with it, try to change its course for the better. talk about things that need to be brought up to par. trust me, its for the better. look at why we got bort to check into beams with mods in relation to faw. it was much much harder when asking for tric nerfs correct?
even if you dont like the devs or how they do things, well guess what???? they call the shots. mostly over the years you say they never listened to pvp'ers right? well....pvp'ers mostly ask for nerfs in a growing mmo. a growing mmo gains power creep. not degrades.
this is really all i have to say. im done here. kinda sad i could not really "bait" anyone into a real debate on the topic of csv. even more sad people would not even take it up to prove if csv lacks or is actually nice. well done gi, pvp'ers. the so called pros cant even talk about other aspects of the game that lacks. they just avoid it like the plague. the truth is you guys talk with no claims or even proof. why would the devs really listen? you tell them x,y,znd z is op yet never told them if a,b,or c is the same or lacks in comparison.
the only decent thing ive ever seen talked about is tt verse delta and beta. and to cut the clear duration. people were clear with what the problem is and how it affects game play. the pages on faw a2b and dem...........yeah not so good. you never compared it to anything else we have in game.
Because it's been done. DPS caps out at about 25k on CSV optimized builds. A FAW scimi can hit 60k. There ya go. That's the reason DPS teams switched to FAW.
so can beams. I dont see your point? Back to square one.
Beams get more acc.
wow you are so wrong.............i was told a pure turret defiant can push over 20k with beta and csv3. and a scmi can do 70k
but gi pandas on trolling
Sorry, should have been more specific. I'm talking about sustained DPS, not spike DPS.
well you said only beams can get more acc, i just pointed out the fact cannons can as well.
and no not square one. and to be honest i wish true testers in this game posted. cause the rest of you guys i think post for post count
i did say it was pure turents right. now i dont know if your talking pvp pve here. i have to assume pve cause you really cant test in a pvp setting. just too much things going on. then again you can que a 1v1 and take off gear and do a true test. you have to remember the people pushing 70k is actually a team effort. faw beta ect. thoes guys go max dps and lowest times. i never understood why so much effort till now to be honest.
1 thing to remember is that CSV has a maximum number of hits per a period of time, and you nedd a LOT of seperate targets in front of you for it to fire every single possible shot. FAW only needs 2 targts to fire its maximum number of shots. this is why CSV is 'not as good', and becase how sensitive it is to range. the closer you are the smaller space targets can possibly fit in. so at peak damage range not much can fit in front of you
There's a uni console that gives +10% acc to beams.
You post in PvP forum expect that response.
Cannons are worse in PvE b/c they have a more narrow arc and relatively short range requiring more time to position ships properly and have lower time on target, cannons have travel time (resulting in wasted volleys).
Torps are bad in PvE b/c they require mixing damage console types if you're going w/a hybrid build, or they'll under preform.
Paying for power is bad, but like you said not going away. But, toning the extremes of it down will make a playing environment that's more diverse. When one build type has few counters and the most damage it's bad for variety.
Let's be honest you're not looking for diversity you're looking to pivot the conversation away from something being nerfed, which devs don't like to do, but have done before and mainly b/c of PvE completion times.
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ill be honest i dont know how to bring csv on par with faw. the devs need to figure that one out. but csv needs some serous work to be as good as faw. with all the tact powers to chose from a player should WANT to decide if they want to run faw or csv. not say well csv sucks and faw is much more impressive. torp spread is in worse shape.
FAW doesn't need nerfed. Overcapping does. It basically mitigates the penalty (power drain) that beams take for having huge arcs and next to zero damage drop off because of range. If Beams had their penalty in place in a manner that couldn't be circumvented, then there would be a real decision to make.
really? not sure how you got to that. everyone that knows me knows im an escourt user since closed beta. i only run cannons. i do have a wells but i like my escourts. but if you think you have a good chance of getting faw nerfed then gl to you. but if you show the devs other tact powers are lacking in light of faw you have a better chance at getting them tuned.
@brandonfl yes over capping is part of the problem. its not the only problem. and i dont really want to go into every little detail that makes faw a problem. i doubt we all want to write a book. but in all these years we havent noticed the problem as much as we do now. its only going to get "worse"? should i even use that word? probably better to just use power creep. but its how everything is worded. i know this to be true. my fleet leader got a doff "fixed" by getting it to go over borts head straight to the top. but its all how you present it. and trust me the way its getting presented on forums is the wrong way to go about it.
instead show the devs other things that lack compared to something thats very good.
Even with that I have heard of people running DBB faw in no win with nice results as well.
I admit that I havn't done something like run Infected 3 times through with a csv and a faw build to compare them.
When I say my record cannon build is around 22k though that is with a copy of faw 1... Rapid 2 x 2 with a CSV 1... and I do use the CSV when I have grouped NPCs.... I get that with CSV 3 the dmg would go up no doubt... I just no and I don't need to test it to know it that I won't go up to 60k.
Regardless my issue with faw isn't that CSV has a fraction of the potential.
My issue with faw is all completely about faw... no target required bothers me badly. No limitation on arc bothers me badly. Very minor limitations on optimal range bothers me badly as well... Faw is able to hit targets both fore and afte of a user equally... and optimaly out to 8k. That is a 16k swath of 80%+ dmg.
That mechanic is why NWS does favor CSV as DDIS was saying hitting targets behind you isn't what you want in that map in general, you want them to all stay grouped up.
To me the mechanic is just broken in theory more then anything else... and IMO (yes it is an opinion). Its the mechanic itself that makes FAW look so bad when you start throwin in all the creep.
If Cryptic was to release a console tommorow that gave all energy weapons +20% dmg... FAW beams would benifit the most as they spend almost 100% of FAWs uptime shooting at something. Where as CSV due to arc limitations is going to spend as much time on target as the pilot is good at setting that up. (I don't think even the best of us are going to do better then 75% at most)... which would mean FAW gains more from the boost.
That has happened with every single power creep item in the game... it boosts faw the most... so multiply it by X number of power creep items and rep bonuses ect ect... and you end up with a skill that is magnitudes better then everything else.
It is the mechanic that is the problem... not DMG mods on it... or the even the number of shots or how much more beams gel with overcaping. It has to do with 100% uptime on target... and how the little minor buffs everywhere all end up boost that skill more then others.
I've never asked for FaW to be nerfed, re-read my posts in this thread.
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100% not true. CSV is still the best option for NWS as all it's shots hit the same 3 targets, the whole principle behind the builds most commonly used is to kill 1 or 2 small targets while everything is bunched up and rely on warp core breaches for the rest.
If you're doing NWS with FAW you need people capable of 20k+ while with CSV you only need people capable of 8k.
That's without mentioning the chaff that eats up shots with FAW, best counter to FAW is to spam pets or use things like scramble and FBP. Other notable options are drains but they're non specific counters to a lot of things.
Weird thing though is people consider AMS cheese, yet in the situation of FAW being spammed it is a viable counter, in fact I would say it's the best counter an escort has for it as they don't have to spend a boff ability on scrambles or a weak sauce FBP. Makes you wonder what other consoles and items people consider cheese are actually valid counters to other things.
Oh and for the record, highest cannon build dps I've heard of is 34k but I have a feeling that might go up as it was before spire consoles afaik.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJRx9JzeTUA
beam boats. look how they did it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsOfkIQUG5E
csv
no, you accused us of wanting it nerfed instead of CSV being tuned to match
Beams need their penalty back in place in a meaningful way, that is how I suggest bringing the 2 powers into line with each other so that captains have to make a decision
everyone needs to be runing beams though, if anyone runs beams.
really?????? i can go into all these pages and opvp and see everyone talking about nerf faw.