Although, im not sure why i even asked, i probavly have one of th,most deadly beam array scimitar around LOL.
Guess ill just run the queues tonifht :P
And no, overcapping has been around for years, at least for beam firing, i never bothered testing with faw personally but.. Beams overcapped, after this patch will still be OP compared to DHCs, because beams have alot moar advantage with overcapping or drain resists by the cutter proc. With or without FAWWWWW
We are talking a bug that is a few months old. (according to sources).
Overcap and eps transfer will need to be incredibly high to compensate that 48 drain per cycle.
Marion will be needed by beams again, kcb 2p may find a home in every beam build as well
We'll have to see, maybe it will in fact be bigger than I think.
Although I did perform some limited testing on non-FAW with high weapon power + drain res and beams were still performing fairly high on their own.
Another part that leaves me skeptical is that my test results with DBBs with overcap do not gain as much as BAs with overcap (the caps seem different).
So there are still a few odd outliers going on under the hood specifically with BAs - whether or not the current changes that are live will rectify that enough to tone things down is something I'll need to test for myself.
I wonder why cryptic choose to implement beams the way they did anyway.
They should never have allowed firing discoballs but they should have reworkes subsystem targettinf to be more interesting instead. Isnt that what feds did? they hardly ever just bluntly activated their discoballs lol
The bug that got fixed was the fact that FAW wasn't correctly draining weapon power on firing cycles. It was a very recent development and the devs handled it fairly quickly.
Indeed, overcapping and drain resistance are two of the most powerful contributors to what we are seeing with beam arrays.
Unfortunately too many people are confused by what they see and are blaming pretty much everything else, erroneously blaming FAW, DEM, A2B, Marion, etc.
The Nukara console is just icing on the cake, it was designed most likely with the Nukara DBB in mind - unfortunately its application is much broader and therefore more problematic.
We don't even know if the devs realize the scope and depth of the problem right now, although several of us have tried to tell them - however I doubt they'd even consider adding a +10 ACC to cannon weapons console.
They probably still think DHCs are "too good" - which hasn't been true for quite some time now.
DHCs are held back peek DPS wise by only being able to mount them up front, and thus needing to be pared with turrets. the same way beams are held back by power drain... oh wait
best way to help all cannons is a fairly substantial buff to extreamly pathetic turrets. DHCs can spike, but they need 10 seconds to do it, and anymore thats not all that much different from beam array type pressure. still, if you have a 3 second window cannons will outdo beams, but a 10+ window with beam on target uptime, beams win. fleet shields and other defensive creep takes the wind out of all DPS's sails, so 1 isn't much better then the other in application anymore.
Indeed, overcapping and drain resistance are two of the most powerful contributors to what we are seeing with beam arrays.
Unfortunately too many people are confused by what they see and are blaming pretty much everything else, erroneously blaming FAW, DEM, A2B, Marion, etc.
yes and no, with a healer or two in your team u can resist the constant shield damage, can be annoyng maybe but i think that there is a way of tank that kind of damage, shield is easy to regen an heal, and the resistences dosn't have diminish returns, sci fleet + tss + fleet shield is probably enought. The problem is when u mix that overcapping and drain resistence with DEM, you have a constant hull damage to the entire enemy team, that can be spiked using scimitars, and thats isn't something u can counter with heals.
The ability of kill several enemies in a very short time using shield bypass damage is the most unbalanced thing i ever seen in this game, and i been here a long time...If u don't die with the multiple ambush-bfaw3-dem3-eptw-8beams-5tactical consoles-5 romulan operative boffs-multiple-apb strike, u will have a hard time trying to keep the hull of your entire team up, they don't even need to use subnuke, it removes all kind of teamwork of the picture.
yes and no, with a healer or two in your team u can resist the constant shield damage, can be annoyng maybe but i think that there is a way of tank that kind of damage, shield is easy to regen an heal, and the resistences dosn't have diminish returns, sci fleet + tss + fleet shield is probably enought. The problem is when u mix that overcapping and drain resistence with DEM, you have a constant hull damage to the entire enemy team, that can be spiked using scimitars, and thats isn't something u can counter with heals.
The ability of kill several enemies in a very short time using shield bypass damage is the most unbalanced thing i ever seen in this game, and i been here a long time...If u don't die with the multiple ambush-bfaw3-dem3-eptw-8beams-5tactical consoles-5 romulan operative boffs-multiple-apb strike, u will have a hard time trying to keep the hull of your entire team up, they don't even need to use subnuke, it removes all kind of teamwork of the picture.
Using a beam boat in conjunction with a spiker can be a pretty nasty thing. Use the beamer to wear out their heals, and then the spiker gets a pretty much free run at someone that cant heal themselves through it.
Its a pretty common tactic whenever I am on one of my beamers. They literally put out so much AOE damage that you cant just passive through it, you have to burn heals, which of course leaves you vulnerable to a spike.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Using a beam boat in conjunction with a spiker can be a pretty nasty thing. Use the beamer to wear out their heals, and then the spiker gets a pretty much free run at someone that cant heal themselves through it.
Its a pretty common tactic whenever I am on one of my beamers. They literally put out so much AOE damage that you cant just passive through it, you have to burn heals, which of course leaves you vulnerable to a spike.
that is a perfect valid tactic imo. I see no diference in disable a healer while u strike on another guy, or push the healers away with TRB so they can't heal.
But now with scimitar bfaw u don't do that, u just decloak and watch the entire enemy team blowing up in 3 seconds
Many people will hate me for saying this, but energy weapons should get a reduction to damage against hull.
Basicly forcing people to implement torpedo's into their builds. .
This is a good idea but torps would need to do more damage against shields for this to work by making torp damage scale up based on how much of the shield facing its hitting is left.
Any one else notice how dem FAW seems to completely ignore shields though?
Last night, every match had teams full of FAW spam and I was noticing that shields remained untouched yet hull is at 15%.
It was utterly pointless even bothering grinding and putting resources in to good shields, they were just being ignored.
Might be worth getting a number cruncher to check this (again) and maybe checking against scattering field too.
Any one else notice how dem FAW seems to completely ignore shields though?
Last night, every match had teams full of FAW spam and I was noticing that shields remained untouched yet hull is at 15%.
It was utterly pointless even bothering grinding and putting resources in to good shields, they were just being ignored.
Might be worth getting a number cruncher to check this (again) and maybe checking against scattering field too.
read the dem skill mate, its a direct to hull shield bypass anyway. couple that with a solid bleed build with the nukara rep and say plasma weapons and the hull damage without ever hurting the shields can be pretty ridiculous.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Part of why DEM hurts so much (putting aside the ****-ton of other bleedthrough junk right now), is because of just how boosted it can be. Sure back in the day, a tac could fly a cruiser of some kind, slap DEM 3 on it, and go to town, especially on like a Klingon BC or something, but it wasn't too insane. DEM 1 on like an escort was normally considered to not be worthwhile enough in most cases.
Nowadays we live in a world of super-high crit chance and severity, large, long-lasting decloaking buffs, lots of stacked damage bonuses, and so on. If you were to go back in time a year or so, and talk to me about DEM, I would tell you I could achieve roughly 1k hits on my DEM 3 on my Tac Bortas on an alpha strike, and look at like 2k or more crits at the same time. Heck, even without that, I'd still achieve pretty strong DEM hits due to the power of 5 tac consoles (and to be fair, Disruptors were technically broken as well). Nowadays though, people can easily achieve those numbers for much less effort, and on far superior ships.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
i love how often the scimitar comes up in these discussions, and yet the blame is on F@W.
If they nerf F@W to the levels that coordinated tac/scimis won't wreck havoc, it ll be useless even for spam cleaning. And with all those 1 hanger ships we need spam cleaning now more then ever.
as ulit keeps harping. F@W is the smaller problem. The powercreep that is the scmitar with all romulan doffs, set bonuses and uber-rare doffs....that is the problem.
They're not spiking an individual...they're pressuring multiple folks.
...
But pressuring multiple folks...uh...that's kind of what pressure means. You're applying pressure to the team.
I get this but at the same time imo a single build that can pressure multiple ships (3+) into using all their heals on themselves I think is a bit much, I mean, one should be able to throw at least one heal to a team mate in need without having to worry about running out of heals yourself right?
Comments
Guess ill just run the queues tonifht :P
And no, overcapping has been around for years, at least for beam firing, i never bothered testing with faw personally but.. Beams overcapped, after this patch will still be OP compared to DHCs, because beams have alot moar advantage with overcapping or drain resists by the cutter proc. With or without FAWWWWW
its supper BOSTED explot its UNACCEPTABLE
We'll have to see, maybe it will in fact be bigger than I think.
Although I did perform some limited testing on non-FAW with high weapon power + drain res and beams were still performing fairly high on their own.
Another part that leaves me skeptical is that my test results with DBBs with overcap do not gain as much as BAs with overcap (the caps seem different).
So there are still a few odd outliers going on under the hood specifically with BAs - whether or not the current changes that are live will rectify that enough to tone things down is something I'll need to test for myself.
On that note beams drop offf damage by increased distance is alot less then cannons too.
Simplistic beam play will always be OP in this game :P
They should never have allowed firing discoballs but they should have reworkes subsystem targettinf to be more interesting instead. Isnt that what feds did? they hardly ever just bluntly activated their discoballs lol
Which would explain why everyone and their stepsister twice removed started to use it at about the same time.
The bug that got fixed was the fact that FAW wasn't correctly draining weapon power on firing cycles. It was a very recent development and the devs handled it fairly quickly.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Plasma Beam Array: Critical hits: 51 (23,29 percent)
Plasma Beam Array - FAW III: Critical hits: 0 (0,00 percent)
Here it goes again...
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
They keep saying its to hard to rework faw... but they are having to waste time on it basicly every patch.
Time to DELETE faw because it is a terrible mechanic anyway.
Take Cannon Scatter Volley... rename it Fire at will... and make it work with beams as well.
Problem solved... more work yes... but problem solved.
OK, I laughed at that one.
Although I was thinking that the devs probably feel a bit more like Bill Murray in Ground Hog's Day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt4JXKUv5MQ
"You never thank me! Never!"
Man that film is 20 years old...
This is a good.
Problem solved..
greetings
David
*** Aktiv since 03.06.10 ***
Would have been EPIC if they ended with him dropping the toaster in the tub.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
lol ya... I just watched that one the other night to. That and bad santa... my holiday movie duo. A little ying yang of the season for me.
DHCs are held back peek DPS wise by only being able to mount them up front, and thus needing to be pared with turrets. the same way beams are held back by power drain... oh wait
best way to help all cannons is a fairly substantial buff to extreamly pathetic turrets. DHCs can spike, but they need 10 seconds to do it, and anymore thats not all that much different from beam array type pressure. still, if you have a 3 second window cannons will outdo beams, but a 10+ window with beam on target uptime, beams win. fleet shields and other defensive creep takes the wind out of all DPS's sails, so 1 isn't much better then the other in application anymore.
yes and no, with a healer or two in your team u can resist the constant shield damage, can be annoyng maybe but i think that there is a way of tank that kind of damage, shield is easy to regen an heal, and the resistences dosn't have diminish returns, sci fleet + tss + fleet shield is probably enought. The problem is when u mix that overcapping and drain resistence with DEM, you have a constant hull damage to the entire enemy team, that can be spiked using scimitars, and thats isn't something u can counter with heals.
The ability of kill several enemies in a very short time using shield bypass damage is the most unbalanced thing i ever seen in this game, and i been here a long time...If u don't die with the multiple ambush-bfaw3-dem3-eptw-8beams-5tactical consoles-5 romulan operative boffs-multiple-apb strike, u will have a hard time trying to keep the hull of your entire team up, they don't even need to use subnuke, it removes all kind of teamwork of the picture.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Using a beam boat in conjunction with a spiker can be a pretty nasty thing. Use the beamer to wear out their heals, and then the spiker gets a pretty much free run at someone that cant heal themselves through it.
Its a pretty common tactic whenever I am on one of my beamers. They literally put out so much AOE damage that you cant just passive through it, you have to burn heals, which of course leaves you vulnerable to a spike.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
That reminds me of the Fastest Game on Ice music...
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
that is a perfect valid tactic imo. I see no diference in disable a healer while u strike on another guy, or push the healers away with TRB so they can't heal.
But now with scimitar bfaw u don't do that, u just decloak and watch the entire enemy team blowing up in 3 seconds
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Having pressure builds is one thing, having AOE pressure builds that can force multiple ships to spend their heals should be considered an issue.
This is a good idea but torps would need to do more damage against shields for this to work by making torp damage scale up based on how much of the shield facing its hitting is left.
Last night, every match had teams full of FAW spam and I was noticing that shields remained untouched yet hull is at 15%.
It was utterly pointless even bothering grinding and putting resources in to good shields, they were just being ignored.
Might be worth getting a number cruncher to check this (again) and maybe checking against scattering field too.
read the dem skill mate, its a direct to hull shield bypass anyway. couple that with a solid bleed build with the nukara rep and say plasma weapons and the hull damage without ever hurting the shields can be pretty ridiculous.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
What's really the point in having shields if everything is going to ignore them?
Part of why DEM hurts so much (putting aside the ****-ton of other bleedthrough junk right now), is because of just how boosted it can be. Sure back in the day, a tac could fly a cruiser of some kind, slap DEM 3 on it, and go to town, especially on like a Klingon BC or something, but it wasn't too insane. DEM 1 on like an escort was normally considered to not be worthwhile enough in most cases.
Nowadays we live in a world of super-high crit chance and severity, large, long-lasting decloaking buffs, lots of stacked damage bonuses, and so on. If you were to go back in time a year or so, and talk to me about DEM, I would tell you I could achieve roughly 1k hits on my DEM 3 on my Tac Bortas on an alpha strike, and look at like 2k or more crits at the same time. Heck, even without that, I'd still achieve pretty strong DEM hits due to the power of 5 tac consoles (and to be fair, Disruptors were technically broken as well). Nowadays though, people can easily achieve those numbers for much less effort, and on far superior ships.
If they nerf F@W to the levels that coordinated tac/scimis won't wreck havoc, it ll be useless even for spam cleaning. And with all those 1 hanger ships we need spam cleaning now more then ever.
as ulit keeps harping. F@W is the smaller problem. The powercreep that is the scmitar with all romulan doffs, set bonuses and uber-rare doffs....that is the problem.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I get this but at the same time imo a single build that can pressure multiple ships (3+) into using all their heals on themselves I think is a bit much, I mean, one should be able to throw at least one heal to a team mate in need without having to worry about running out of heals yourself right?