Every single game with pvp content has pugs, every one has premades. The reason pugs and premades arent an issue in other games is because the amount of people participating.
When you que solo or as a premade, I Promise you that every single night you will run into a fleet or a group of people who are well known, dominant players. Players who take the game quite seriously, players who have been playing with eachother long enough to know eachother's tactics, voices, personalities, etc... You might just play it out only to be matched against them in the next game and the next game until you decide to quit pvping. It simply isnt fair to these players to begrudge them for being good at the game and accuse them of 'breaking the ques'. - The real problem is that these players/fleets are unavoidable, and can dominate the ques because they are the only ones in the ques.
the small number of people playing make things like ranking systems ineffective, because even if we could be divided along a scale of performance, ther simply wouldnt be enough peopel playing at Lvl X for anyone to be matched up with players at the same level.
You can do all the changes to the game you want to balance it, address power creep, etc - It wont change anything. the best fleets and players will still be the best because they invest the time, money, and effort in being the best.
But, a queue of solo players only, where teams are also balanced based on historical performance would "even the odds" and not tilt the match towards one team or the other.
But, a queue of solo players only, where teams are also balanced based on historical performance would "even the odds" and not tilt the match towards one team or the other.
until they get on voip and synchronize their ques. Even if it wouldnt be possible it would become the issue of good players being so much better then casual players. Think about someone who you feel is an awesome pvper and imagine them and 4 pugs vs 5 other pugs. You could que all night long and keep getting vaped by the same person, or get stonewalled by another person's heals. If I dont get matched against players as good or better then myself, then I will be that person. Again, there isnt enough people so it would be you and 4 pugs vs Team x, fleet y and z, there arent enough players to make a rank system useful so 'previous performance' is moot. We would be right back into threads like this saying 'Team X' is ruining pvp because they are so good at the game.
Another point about performance based matching: in most pvp games there are roles beyond healing and damage dealing that have a huge impact on the game. - sto is no different. Roles that are thankless and un-quantifiable that still yield dramatic results. You might never get the most damage or the most healing but you might always win because of the strategic things you do.
...the team queue most likely would be dead if a dominant team starts queueing. Therefore calling for a complete division of the two modes essentially means calling for an end of teamed queueing.
This is the part that separate queue advocates simply do not understand, and most likely don't care about.
This is the part that separate queue advocates simply do not understand, and most likely don't care about.
Or perhaps they've considered that there's still private matches/challenges available? That there's various channels, friend lists, forums, etc, etc, etc - where premades could seek fights against other premades.
That there are not enough premade teams to support such a thing, isn't really license to go after and kill off the non-premade PvP as well...that's kind of petty, no?
As I've mentioned in a few threads, I don't think the answer for premades is a premade queue - the answer would be a premade lobby - a centralized location for the arrangement of matches.
If folks don't want to queue against a certain team, they don't have to - nobody has to take that challenge...until they feel that they're ready for that challenge.
It starts to come off looking pretty bad, not saying that's how it is, but it's how it obviously looks to some folks out there (you see it in their comments) - that it seems like there are a bunch of premades afraid of a challenge that would rather pat themselves on the back for pugstomping.
As pulserazor said, there's just not the population...if we can't grow the population, we should just walk away. There are things that can grow the population and there are things that can shrink the population...the various xmades stomping pugs, well - yeah, that's not growing the population.
I don't won't to come off as dumping on your work and try to stay away from it, but imo ladder/ranking systems have inherent flaws.
I'm not suggesting that Cryptic start public leaderboards. The matchmaking data could stay invisible in the background. With the "average dps/hps/kills" approach (that also hopefully eliminates most fluctuations that are due to the meta game) you only get exactly one match before you can be placed somewhat appropriately, so creating low level alts won't give you more than a handful of matches per character (any artificially extended "learning period" to a prevent too steep learning curves could be tied to account experience; and with the current grind level and price for competitive ships I'm not convinced that we would see tons of disposable toons on new accounts).
If a pug only queue was made and people desert the teamed PVP queues then obviously that would be what the majority of the player base wants so it would still be the right decision.
Doesn't the majority want PVE? But seriously, the problem I see is that by killing teamed queueing (and I'm not talking about full 5 man premades, but rather just 2-3 players having fun together which would also essentially become impossible) you could lose a portion of the players because they are not good enough for the team queue (or only are a group of 2-3 which will feel out of place in a team queue) and don't want to queue solo.
Also, how enjoyable do you expect a single player queue to be if it's done with Cryptic's amazing "first 5 players vs next 5 players" system instead of a balancing algorithm? "Organised" random matches work because of the balancing (manual or automatic); if it was truly randomised the results most likely wouldn't be very encouraging. (Ask the TD crowd why they put certain players on certain sides instead of ordering alphabetically or some such.) And if you have a balancing system in place anyway, it's only a tiny step to keep teamed queueing possible and still get the benefits.
Why is it when a prepare joins the queues and it's blatantly obvious they're going to get a 15-0 score, why do they not try to even the odds so to say?
Why not take off your armour, keep a second rubbish shield and use that? Why is it the premades are not getting into the spirit of it?
I hear people saying they want a good fight but I know that there are those in their own fleet, not naming anyone, that deliberately go into the queues to break and stomp. Maybe they're not the ones saying they want a good fight and are just poor excuses for players.
Still the real issue isn't one thing, it's a combination of thing. We got an experience gap, gear gap, pay gap, communication gap (ignore lists don't help) and then we got a lack of help upon defeat too.
As someone said in another thread, they were ready to just quit PvP till horizon gave them a pep talk, convinced them otherwise and helped them out. However where are the horizons now? A lot of the time I hear about the queues and it's almost always "the other team said nothing".
Why is it when a prepare joins the queues and it's blatantly obvious they're going to get a 15-0 score, why do they not try to even the odds so to say?
Why not take off your armour, keep a second rubbish shield and use that? Why is it the premades are not getting into the spirit of it?
Been there, done that.
In one match we took off our shields when we were to far ahead, but it did not help, we still won without losing a ship. The next match we warped into the map with our shields still unequipped. Checking the player list told us that we were facing another premade, so we re-equipped our shields - well, with the exception of one (drunk) player who kept flying without shields. The opposing premade either had no sci or was not smart enough to nuke his hull resists and so they eventually failed to kill a ship with no shields. What happened then? Endless "cheaters, exploiters, etc". Similarly some people were thinking they were being mocked when they lost to teams that included a T3 ship (Tac/Golfball).
Conclusion: Taking off armor/shields, using low level ships and such is a usually not a good idea.
this balance pass thing thats been touted about for over a year has succeeded in neither balancing existing powers/entitles or balancing newly introduced powers/entities.
this make one thing clear. whatever this tool is doing, isnt working.
the two most obvious explanations i can see,
1) the data being fed into this tool is faulty, meaning its working with the wrong premise to begin with.
2) the tool being referenced just doesnt work.
3_) ????
None of that exists, and no balance pass has happened, nor does it appear one is in the works. He was speaking hypothetically and somewhat wishfully.
I think the people against premades are missing a fundamental problem. I run with my fleet, and I run occasion with friends I've made in the game. I've also queued in solo. The problem isn't premade against pugmade. The problem, and it's been mentioned here already, is that pugmades don't coordinate. I don't want to be on a team that has 5 people randomly running around trying to use a weapon they don't know how to use. And eventually, some pugs will learn the mechanics, and some won't. So now what? If you know how to use the gear, you get a 3rd, solo BUT educated queue?
Here's the problem, imo, with pugmades.
* There may be a language barrier to try to coordinate.
* They only want to do the mission to get their dilithium from the first missions given. And then you never see them play pvp again.
* You can level so fast in this game, that, you never understand the need for gear.
* There is no one leader on the team to call targets or coordinate strategy.
* Frustration will cause beam outs, even against other pugs, thus leaving your team short.
*They don't understand how to counter certain items or even use their kits.
I think what really is the problem is that pugs run around and never try to learn the mechanics because there is no structure. And if you pug it yourself and end up with this team, and you try to get some structure together, you get ignored, because each player thinks they are better than the other 4. Even in PvE. How many times have you queued for CGE or other missions to find pugs that don't understand even the basics? Is that fun for you? I get frustrated enough working with the people in my job that don't understand their job, I don't want that in a game.
Guilds are part of MMOs for a reason. Either people are friends in real life and play the game together, or they find a fleet that they fit in and find that socializing and running with friends to be more fun. It's not the goal of every fleet/premade to stomp pugs. If we see pugs that keep queuing and are interested in PvP, we try to talk to them and run with them. But, also, if pugs are interested in PvP and see a team working well together, they should reach out to the team and see if they can learn anything and run with them. Teamwork is essential in PvP, and you just don't get that with random pugmades.
this balance pass thing thats been touted about for over a year has succeeded in neither balancing existing powers/entitles or balancing newly introduced powers/entities.
this make one thing clear. whatever this tool is doing, isnt working.
the two most obvious explanations i can see,
1) the data being fed into this tool is faulty, meaning its working with the wrong premise to begin with.
2) the tool being referenced just doesnt work.
3_) ????
None of that exists in STO as of today. Mancom/Hilbert created a tool that is used bu the folks in TD to balance matches... Sorry if I made it sound like this existed in STO natively today.
The issue is people want to break the ques and have no issue in the damage that causes. They might as well wear goonswarm over their handles. The current system fails to prevent that sort of abuse. It's all about the epeen.
The issue is people want to break the ques and have no issue in the damage that causes. They might as well wear goonswarm over their handles. The current system fails to prevent that sort of abuse. It's all about the epeen.
Its all very well saying that but your own fleet is doing this in random queues on a constant basis:
if YOU want to help the community, running several TIF, Black holes, Scramble sensor doffs, Gravity wells, web mines in the same fleet/team is not the answer.
if YOU want to help the community, running several TIF, Black holes, Scramble sensor doffs, Gravity wells, web mines in the same fleet/team is not the answer.
Our fleet is large and made of diverse groups of people, since -nC- proper was formed from 7th core and other PvE factions.
That's the "Time Scar" team in our fleet. TAL02 has nothing to do with that team in our fleet. I don't think TAL02 even has a Wells.
One which I have nothing to do with, and will never join. It's mostly made up of some of the PvEers who merged in with the fleet way back.
They're trying to do the old TRIBBLE. layout. I don't even think they do premades at all.
We're not a hive mind, but a diverse group of people with different interests within the fleet.
Our fleet is large and made of diverse groups of people, since -nC- proper was formed from 7th core and other PvE factions.
That's the "Time Scar" team in our fleet. TAL02 has nothing to do with that team in our fleet. I don't think TAL02 even has a Wells.
One which I have nothing to do with, and will never join. It's mostly made up of some of the PvEers who merged in with the fleet way back.
They're trying to do the old TRIBBLE. layout. I don't even think they do premades at all.
We're not a hive mind, but a diverse group of people with different interests within the fleet.
Then I'd say you all need to distance yourself from them, because having the same fleet tag takes all the legitimacy out of Tal's argument... and I don't completely disagree with him, nor do I have any problems with you or Tal, always been great guys.
Then I'd say you all need to distance yourself from them, because having the same fleet tag takes all the legitimacy out of Tal's argument... and I don't completely disagree with him, nor do I have any problems with you or Tal, always been great guys.
Yeah, the thing is is that the main creator of that team is one of our fleet leaders.
But yeah, I refuse to fly with that team. I mostly do private challenges nowadays.
First time I've seen premade complain about cheese lol. This is good in many ways, it kind of validates the concerns puggers have raised many times about premade tactics in public queues I think .
Just my 2 cents.
I don't believe he was complaining, just pointing it out in response to a member of that fleet who is saying teams shouldn't do that.
But then 3 of the "puggers" were all from the same fleet with the camera guy maybe from the same fleet?
I dunno, I wouldn't exactly say the team getting spammed were noobs if they were all on team speak etc. Seems kinda like the pot calling the kettle black in terms of the issues raised in the thread no?
Also like others have said, don't tarnish a whole fleet by what some people in it do. It's not exactly good to turn round to someone who has ground their backside off to rank up the fleet and say "we don't like what you do so we're kicking you". Especially if that person is a leader from day 1.
Disclaimer: I know not all of the puggers fleet are like that and I treat individual members as they are. I have met and played with some of them before and they're really nice guys, in both fleets shown in that video.
But then 3 of the "puggers" were all from the same fleet with the camera guy maybe from the same fleet?
I dunno, I wouldn't exactly say the team getting spammed were noobs if they were all on team speak etc. Seems kinda like the pot calling the kettle black in terms of the issues raised in the thread no?
Also like others have said, don't tarnish a whole fleet by what some people in it do. It's not exactly good to turn round to someone who has ground their backside off to rank up the fleet and say "we don't like what you do so we're kicking you". Especially if that person is a leader from day 1.
Disclaimer: I know not all of the puggers fleet are like that and I treat individual members as they are. I have met and played with some of them before and they're really nice guys, in both fleets shown in that video.
Guess the point went completely over your head then. Sorry.
if YOU want to help the community, running several TIF, Black holes, Scramble sensor doffs, Gravity wells, web mines in the same fleet/team is not the answer.
That looked like a private match to me, which is probably not the best example to use since a) you probably had a pretty good idea of what they were bringing (I'm guessing you ran into them in the que and went and got some buddies to challenge them to a private match?) and b) you could set rules for private matches (although I doubt they wanted any).
If it were up to me everyone would play by the No BS No. 3 rules of no clickable consoles and other limitations, but we all know that will never happen and 99% of teams would not agree to play by those rules even in private matches. We had a couple private matches against a team this weekend and I asked if they wanted any rules. Both times they said "no rules," and while that's not my preference, I still played and am not going to come onto the forums complaining that they were running cheese when I knew good-and-well the possibilities of what they might run going into the match.
I'm not really sure what my point is, other than that was a bad example, because I don't condone that kind of abuse in the queues, but I'm also not going to complain about what people use in a private match, especially under the pretense of it being a public queue. I've had conversations about "clean play" with the person that organized that team and let's just say we're on opposing sides when it comes to that. Back when Nukara Mines were super OP I would request that anyone I played with in Nova Core take them off. He refused. His mindset is that people should not be told what they can and can not use especially after they spent grind time and/or money for it. The leader of the team I played against this weekend said, "no rules is the future" after I asked him the second time if he wanted any rules.
I just dunno any more. It appears with everything out there nowadays it's impossible to curtail all the broken or OP or cheese stuff or even come to a consensus on what is or is not OP. I heard your Pandas team talking about timing your iso charges together in that match. Guess what? In my book that's cheese-- multiple people on a team running an OP console = cheese. I've pretty much consoled (no pun intended) myself that I have lost this battle. I can't control what people in my fleet run, I can't control what people in other fleets run, I certainly can't control what people run in the queues, and nowadays even teams doing private matches prefer little-to-no rules. It's a cold, dark world out there, especially after you get ams'ed while in a black hole.
1b) There really is nothing stopping a premade premade from "breaking the ques". This is a phrase I have heard too many times... from friends and strangers. They take satisfaction in the fact that they force people from no longer wanting to que up... effectively leaving the pvp ques dead. "We broke the ques, **** yeah."
I find that disgusting, and feel it is unfortunate that I hear it from in game friends and acquaintances.
I love pvp, I love pugmading, I love random soloing, on occasion I like to premade... but never to the point or with the purpose of breaking the ques.
I assumed he also meant fleet as well by the bolded part which I didn't want to quote too out of context. It's not easy to turn your back or force someone else to turn their back on a fleet that they have put so much resources into.
Even now I get a pang on the old heart string thinking about my original fleet, all the leaders do. Really hurts having to let it go after so much due to endless grind but that's another thing.
But then correct me to the point if it is still going over my head but it still didn't exactly look like one fleet was sitting on the pedestal of honor over the other looking at the vid.
First time I've seen premade complain about cheese lol. This is good in many ways, it kind of validates the concerns puggers have raised many times about premade tactics in public queues I think .
Just my 2 cents.
Plenty of PUGs use the same cheese. Just because you don't belong to a fleet, doesn't really mean you can run whatever you want and not expect it to affect your reputation - if you have one at all that is.
I promise you though even the most unknown PUG player is going to face the brunt of kill farming when they are running cheese items against coordinated teams.
I fully appreciate not slandering an entire fleet over what a handful of players do - my fleet is constantly and repeatedly dealing with the same kind of treatment.
One Panda can't TRIBBLE without some clown running to OPvP or the forums to make some grand sweeping statement about every Panda.
At the same time this isn't one or two players running some item, this is a full premade team running very specifically a full cheese team, only accepting 5v5 challenges that cater to "no rules" knowing full well other fleets/teams generally don't run that stuff.
At some point all fleets do need to take steps to sort out something that affects the fleet name through whatever activity it might be - even causing a ruckus on the forums.
That's just the nature of the beast, and I am sincere when I say to a player like Snog or Tal that I appreciate the pickle it puts them in.
They are clean players, vets, and they don't run that stuff or play that way.
At some point all fleets do need to take steps to sort out something that affects the fleet name through whatever activity it might be - even causing a ruckus on the forums.
They can't station guys with tasers behind each of their members while they play...
...but some fleets do take a completely hands off approach that is a little - hrmm - curious.
Still, like you said...many folks are jumping at the gun to label an entire fleet based on the actions of a few.
If folks are going to get their feathers ruffled as much as they are by certain things, perhaps they should make a note of those ruffling the feathers - rather than just blathering blindly at a whole fleet about it.
To be brutally honest, it's just not as entertaining when somebody's raging blindly at a fleet - it's kind of tedious. It's more fun when they're raging at individuals. Lalalalala...
Disclaimer: this does not mean I condone the overuse of cheese abilities by pugs. I really dislike exaggerated cheese, doesn't matter who is abusing it.
Continue to try to upgrade the 2x Tac to Sub/Sup Op.
Replace the 0Point and Assimilated with 2x Vulnerability Exploiter Mk XII [+Torp]...maybe.
Upgrade the Neut Mk XI either to a E-Neut +HullRep or +HullHP.
Thinking about 2pc Dyson w/ Engines/Singularity Core...but I preferred the old Core they had.
T4 Dyson, haven't decided yet...
Hull: 43,215
Shields: 11,237
Bonus Defense: 135.2% (will be 137.7% if I ever get that other Tac) unbuffed outside of Cloak. Currently can go up to 232.7% Bonus Defense (will be 235.2%).
Comments
Every single game with pvp content has pugs, every one has premades. The reason pugs and premades arent an issue in other games is because the amount of people participating.
When you que solo or as a premade, I Promise you that every single night you will run into a fleet or a group of people who are well known, dominant players. Players who take the game quite seriously, players who have been playing with eachother long enough to know eachother's tactics, voices, personalities, etc... You might just play it out only to be matched against them in the next game and the next game until you decide to quit pvping. It simply isnt fair to these players to begrudge them for being good at the game and accuse them of 'breaking the ques'. - The real problem is that these players/fleets are unavoidable, and can dominate the ques because they are the only ones in the ques.
the small number of people playing make things like ranking systems ineffective, because even if we could be divided along a scale of performance, ther simply wouldnt be enough peopel playing at Lvl X for anyone to be matched up with players at the same level.
You can do all the changes to the game you want to balance it, address power creep, etc - It wont change anything. the best fleets and players will still be the best because they invest the time, money, and effort in being the best.
But, a queue of solo players only, where teams are also balanced based on historical performance would "even the odds" and not tilt the match towards one team or the other.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
until they get on voip and synchronize their ques. Even if it wouldnt be possible it would become the issue of good players being so much better then casual players. Think about someone who you feel is an awesome pvper and imagine them and 4 pugs vs 5 other pugs. You could que all night long and keep getting vaped by the same person, or get stonewalled by another person's heals. If I dont get matched against players as good or better then myself, then I will be that person. Again, there isnt enough people so it would be you and 4 pugs vs Team x, fleet y and z, there arent enough players to make a rank system useful so 'previous performance' is moot. We would be right back into threads like this saying 'Team X' is ruining pvp because they are so good at the game.
Another point about performance based matching: in most pvp games there are roles beyond healing and damage dealing that have a huge impact on the game. - sto is no different. Roles that are thankless and un-quantifiable that still yield dramatic results. You might never get the most damage or the most healing but you might always win because of the strategic things you do.
This is the part that separate queue advocates simply do not understand, and most likely don't care about.
Or perhaps they've considered that there's still private matches/challenges available? That there's various channels, friend lists, forums, etc, etc, etc - where premades could seek fights against other premades.
That there are not enough premade teams to support such a thing, isn't really license to go after and kill off the non-premade PvP as well...that's kind of petty, no?
As I've mentioned in a few threads, I don't think the answer for premades is a premade queue - the answer would be a premade lobby - a centralized location for the arrangement of matches.
If folks don't want to queue against a certain team, they don't have to - nobody has to take that challenge...until they feel that they're ready for that challenge.
It starts to come off looking pretty bad, not saying that's how it is, but it's how it obviously looks to some folks out there (you see it in their comments) - that it seems like there are a bunch of premades afraid of a challenge that would rather pat themselves on the back for pugstomping.
As pulserazor said, there's just not the population...if we can't grow the population, we should just walk away. There are things that can grow the population and there are things that can shrink the population...the various xmades stomping pugs, well - yeah, that's not growing the population.
Doesn't the majority want PVE? But seriously, the problem I see is that by killing teamed queueing (and I'm not talking about full 5 man premades, but rather just 2-3 players having fun together which would also essentially become impossible) you could lose a portion of the players because they are not good enough for the team queue (or only are a group of 2-3 which will feel out of place in a team queue) and don't want to queue solo.
Also, how enjoyable do you expect a single player queue to be if it's done with Cryptic's amazing "first 5 players vs next 5 players" system instead of a balancing algorithm? "Organised" random matches work because of the balancing (manual or automatic); if it was truly randomised the results most likely wouldn't be very encouraging. (Ask the TD crowd why they put certain players on certain sides instead of ordering alphabetically or some such.) And if you have a balancing system in place anyway, it's only a tiny step to keep teamed queueing possible and still get the benefits.
Why is it when a prepare joins the queues and it's blatantly obvious they're going to get a 15-0 score, why do they not try to even the odds so to say?
Why not take off your armour, keep a second rubbish shield and use that? Why is it the premades are not getting into the spirit of it?
I hear people saying they want a good fight but I know that there are those in their own fleet, not naming anyone, that deliberately go into the queues to break and stomp. Maybe they're not the ones saying they want a good fight and are just poor excuses for players.
Still the real issue isn't one thing, it's a combination of thing. We got an experience gap, gear gap, pay gap, communication gap (ignore lists don't help) and then we got a lack of help upon defeat too.
As someone said in another thread, they were ready to just quit PvP till horizon gave them a pep talk, convinced them otherwise and helped them out. However where are the horizons now? A lot of the time I hear about the queues and it's almost always "the other team said nothing".
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
In one match we took off our shields when we were to far ahead, but it did not help, we still won without losing a ship. The next match we warped into the map with our shields still unequipped. Checking the player list told us that we were facing another premade, so we re-equipped our shields - well, with the exception of one (drunk) player who kept flying without shields. The opposing premade either had no sci or was not smart enough to nuke his hull resists and so they eventually failed to kill a ship with no shields. What happened then? Endless "cheaters, exploiters, etc". Similarly some people were thinking they were being mocked when they lost to teams that included a T3 ship (Tac/Golfball).
Conclusion: Taking off armor/shields, using low level ships and such is a usually not a good idea.
None of that exists, and no balance pass has happened, nor does it appear one is in the works. He was speaking hypothetically and somewhat wishfully.
Here's the problem, imo, with pugmades.
* There may be a language barrier to try to coordinate.
* They only want to do the mission to get their dilithium from the first missions given. And then you never see them play pvp again.
* You can level so fast in this game, that, you never understand the need for gear.
* There is no one leader on the team to call targets or coordinate strategy.
* Frustration will cause beam outs, even against other pugs, thus leaving your team short.
*They don't understand how to counter certain items or even use their kits.
I think what really is the problem is that pugs run around and never try to learn the mechanics because there is no structure. And if you pug it yourself and end up with this team, and you try to get some structure together, you get ignored, because each player thinks they are better than the other 4. Even in PvE. How many times have you queued for CGE or other missions to find pugs that don't understand even the basics? Is that fun for you? I get frustrated enough working with the people in my job that don't understand their job, I don't want that in a game.
Guilds are part of MMOs for a reason. Either people are friends in real life and play the game together, or they find a fleet that they fit in and find that socializing and running with friends to be more fun. It's not the goal of every fleet/premade to stomp pugs. If we see pugs that keep queuing and are interested in PvP, we try to talk to them and run with them. But, also, if pugs are interested in PvP and see a team working well together, they should reach out to the team and see if they can learn anything and run with them. Teamwork is essential in PvP, and you just don't get that with random pugmades.
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None of that exists in STO as of today. Mancom/Hilbert created a tool that is used bu the folks in TD to balance matches... Sorry if I made it sound like this existed in STO natively today.
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Its all very well saying that but your own fleet is doing this in random queues on a constant basis:
Have a look at this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U9IFE0FD9A&feature=youtu.be
in truth your own FLEET is helping the problem
if YOU want to help the community, running several TIF, Black holes, Scramble sensor doffs, Gravity wells, web mines in the same fleet/team is not the answer.
Our fleet is large and made of diverse groups of people, since -nC- proper was formed from 7th core and other PvE factions.
That's the "Time Scar" team in our fleet. TAL02 has nothing to do with that team in our fleet. I don't think TAL02 even has a Wells.
One which I have nothing to do with, and will never join.
They're trying to do the old TRIBBLE. layout. I don't even think they do premades at all.
We're not a hive mind, but a diverse group of people with different interests within the fleet.
Then I'd say you all need to distance yourself from them, because having the same fleet tag takes all the legitimacy out of Tal's argument... and I don't completely disagree with him, nor do I have any problems with you or Tal, always been great guys.
Yeah, the thing is is that the main creator of that team is one of our fleet leaders.
But yeah, I refuse to fly with that team. I mostly do private challenges nowadays.
I don't believe he was complaining, just pointing it out in response to a member of that fleet who is saying teams shouldn't do that.
I dunno, I wouldn't exactly say the team getting spammed were noobs if they were all on team speak etc. Seems kinda like the pot calling the kettle black in terms of the issues raised in the thread no?
Also like others have said, don't tarnish a whole fleet by what some people in it do. It's not exactly good to turn round to someone who has ground their backside off to rank up the fleet and say "we don't like what you do so we're kicking you". Especially if that person is a leader from day 1.
Disclaimer: I know not all of the puggers fleet are like that and I treat individual members as they are. I have met and played with some of them before and they're really nice guys, in both fleets shown in that video.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Guess the point went completely over your head then. Sorry.
That looked like a private match to me, which is probably not the best example to use since a) you probably had a pretty good idea of what they were bringing (I'm guessing you ran into them in the que and went and got some buddies to challenge them to a private match?) and b) you could set rules for private matches (although I doubt they wanted any).
If it were up to me everyone would play by the No BS No. 3 rules of no clickable consoles and other limitations, but we all know that will never happen and 99% of teams would not agree to play by those rules even in private matches. We had a couple private matches against a team this weekend and I asked if they wanted any rules. Both times they said "no rules," and while that's not my preference, I still played and am not going to come onto the forums complaining that they were running cheese when I knew good-and-well the possibilities of what they might run going into the match.
I'm not really sure what my point is, other than that was a bad example, because I don't condone that kind of abuse in the queues, but I'm also not going to complain about what people use in a private match, especially under the pretense of it being a public queue. I've had conversations about "clean play" with the person that organized that team and let's just say we're on opposing sides when it comes to that. Back when Nukara Mines were super OP I would request that anyone I played with in Nova Core take them off. He refused. His mindset is that people should not be told what they can and can not use especially after they spent grind time and/or money for it. The leader of the team I played against this weekend said, "no rules is the future" after I asked him the second time if he wanted any rules.
I just dunno any more. It appears with everything out there nowadays it's impossible to curtail all the broken or OP or cheese stuff or even come to a consensus on what is or is not OP. I heard your Pandas team talking about timing your iso charges together in that match. Guess what? In my book that's cheese-- multiple people on a team running an OP console = cheese. I've pretty much consoled (no pun intended) myself that I have lost this battle. I can't control what people in my fleet run, I can't control what people in other fleets run, I certainly can't control what people run in the queues, and nowadays even teams doing private matches prefer little-to-no rules. It's a cold, dark world out there, especially after you get ams'ed while in a black hole.
@DevolvedOne
Guess you all missed this.
I assumed he also meant fleet as well by the bolded part which I didn't want to quote too out of context. It's not easy to turn your back or force someone else to turn their back on a fleet that they have put so much resources into.
Even now I get a pang on the old heart string thinking about my original fleet, all the leaders do. Really hurts having to let it go after so much due to endless grind but that's another thing.
But then correct me to the point if it is still going over my head but it still didn't exactly look like one fleet was sitting on the pedestal of honor over the other looking at the vid.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I can appreciate the pickle that puts players like you and Tal in.
Unfortunately it is going to end up painting your entire fleet tag to a lot of the players that don't follow threads/forums.
Good luck with however you decide to handle it in the future.
Plenty of PUGs use the same cheese. Just because you don't belong to a fleet, doesn't really mean you can run whatever you want and not expect it to affect your reputation - if you have one at all that is.
I promise you though even the most unknown PUG player is going to face the brunt of kill farming when they are running cheese items against coordinated teams.
No one missed it.
I fully appreciate not slandering an entire fleet over what a handful of players do - my fleet is constantly and repeatedly dealing with the same kind of treatment.
One Panda can't TRIBBLE without some clown running to OPvP or the forums to make some grand sweeping statement about every Panda.
At the same time this isn't one or two players running some item, this is a full premade team running very specifically a full cheese team, only accepting 5v5 challenges that cater to "no rules" knowing full well other fleets/teams generally don't run that stuff.
At some point all fleets do need to take steps to sort out something that affects the fleet name through whatever activity it might be - even causing a ruckus on the forums.
That's just the nature of the beast, and I am sincere when I say to a player like Snog or Tal that I appreciate the pickle it puts them in.
They are clean players, vets, and they don't run that stuff or play that way.
They can't station guys with tasers behind each of their members while they play...
...but some fleets do take a completely hands off approach that is a little - hrmm - curious.
Still, like you said...many folks are jumping at the gun to label an entire fleet based on the actions of a few.
If folks are going to get their feathers ruffled as much as they are by certain things, perhaps they should make a note of those ruffling the feathers - rather than just blathering blindly at a whole fleet about it.
To be brutally honest, it's just not as entertaining when somebody's raging blindly at a fleet - it's kind of tedious. It's more fun when they're raging at individuals. Lalalalala...
No, they can't but fleets can have fleet meetings and set up guidelines.
Everyone enjoys meetings hashing out internal issues over TS right?
Right?
....*crickets*....
:P
Willard's current build...
Fleet T'varo w/ KDF-aligned Reman Sci
Traits - Reman, Infiltrator, Singularity Specialist, Conservation of Energy, Photonic Capacitor, Accurate, Astrophysicist, Elusive, Techie
Reputation
T3 Dyson - Advanced Targeting Systems
T5 New Rom - Precision, Sensor Targeting Assault, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
T5 Nukara - Fortified Hull, Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
T5 Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Amplifier
TS1, DPB1, TS3, APO3
TT1
ET1, AtS1
PH1, TSS2, GW1
HE1, HE2
(3x Sub/Sup Op, Sub, Op)
DOFFs - 2x PWO(Torp), PWO(Torp), DO(Exotic), GS(GW)
Deflector - KHG Mk XII
Engine - Aegis
Shields - KHG Mk XII
Core - Overcharged Mk XI [SingA][Jump][Trans]
Weapons
Fore - Grav Photon Torp, Subspace Torp, Omega Torp, Hargh'peng Torp
Aft - Hyper-Plasma Torp, Temporal Distortion Device, Web Mines
Consoles
Tac - Subspace Integration, Spatial Charges, Bioneural Infusion, Proton Stabilizer
Eng - Plasma Destabilizer, Singularity Stabilizer, Neut Mk XI
Sci - 0Point, Assimilated, Tachyokinetc
Devices - SFM, Aux Batt
Other - Nimbus Pirate Distress Call
Current plans...
Continue to try to upgrade the 2x Tac to Sub/Sup Op.
Replace the 0Point and Assimilated with 2x Vulnerability Exploiter Mk XII [+Torp]...maybe.
Upgrade the Neut Mk XI either to a E-Neut +HullRep or +HullHP.
Thinking about 2pc Dyson w/ Engines/Singularity Core...but I preferred the old Core they had.
T4 Dyson, haven't decided yet...
Hull: 43,215
Shields: 11,237
Bonus Defense: 135.2% (will be 137.7% if I ever get that other Tac) unbuffed outside of Cloak. Currently can go up to 232.7% Bonus Defense (will be 235.2%).