Also, "biodegradeable" =! "degradeable". Radioactives can hardly be considered "biodegradeable" - but over time, they do indeed degrade. Not all entropic destruction is the result of biological processes; there are also seismic and atmospheric matters to consider, as well as the rare (but still occurring) meteoric, asteroidal, or cometary impact. (Read up sometime on the environmental damage that was wrought by the Chicxulub impact. How's planetary firestorms and 12 years of acid rain grab you?)
None of that is what's being debated. The fact (via hard evidence) remains that there are fossils found everywhere all over the world, i.e. aspects of life long before us. In other words, there's a mountain of proof. You're basically trying to convince me that the same things which did that before, won't happen again because of your "entropy" scenario which apparently doesn't let things which occurred in the past to produce fossils to occur again in the present or near future for people in the far-flung future to see.
I don't think I said anywhere that fossils don't happen. I even made reference to fossils in that post that you're replying to.
So, yeah, while you're denying building strawmen, you're building them up in great number.
And actually what I listed is being debated, otherwise why would we be having this debate?
You're not trying to change the... subject are you?
Please let the people who live near Pompeii know that they are totally safe, in addition to anyone who lives in an area prone to mudslides, ice, etc.
What has this got to do with "safety" from Pompeii and mudslides? I've made no claims that no one is killed by these things. In fact, I'd quite expect that people will die from such things again.
There's nothing "strawman" about anything. You're implying that things which created fossil evidence of life in the past will not occur for things which exist now or in the near future.
It's very hard to make a fossil. First the remains actually have to last long enough to encounter the conditions to be fossilized, then the conditions, which have to be just right, have to happen. It's a real roll of the dice. There's a reason why most fossils are incomplete.
And yet new discoveries are uncovered all the time which turn "what is known" right on its head. Latest example is the engorged mosquito found in amber reported on Yahoo just yesterday <--- it occurred in a situation it should not have according to "consensus", a word these days which has become synonymous with "stifling dissent".
You must have missed the part where it stated that this kind of fossil was rare. As in, not common. Unusual. And so forth.
My statement just went right over your head, didn't it...
Something's clearly going over someone's head, but I don't think it's what or who you think.
See above statements regarding Pompeii, mud, ice, etc.
No, this is not a discussion about volcano or hiking safety.
Which is like suggesting that cross-breeding sheep with tigers is totally normal and can happen in a natural setting.
Are you forgetting what fictional universe is being discussed in relation to the Voth? Spock? Deanna Troi? Alexander Rozhenko? B'Ellanna Torres? Any of those names ring a bell and bring to mind what was special about them?
Odan and his symbiont would like a word with you...
Last I checked, that episode was still canon. The only episode that I know of that was struck from canon was "Threshold" from Voyager.
There's nothing ridiculous about it except when you assume people mean things will be out in the open to see. And with regards to "the pyramids", you're also forgetting to fact in the ones which have been buried by the sand. The insides are relatively untouched. The earth may go through some upheavals, but certain things will last when buried or encased by aspects of nature...hence fossil evidence found outside of rock.
What happens when the pyramids run out of outside to protect the inside? I don't expect much to be left after that point. Hell, to bring in another Egyptian treasure, the only reason we still have a Sphinx today is because of all the repairs that have been made to it over the centuries.
^ Someone might wanna call the Discovery Channel...
:rolleyes:
Dinosaur tracks, neat. Great, we can catalog them with the other tracks that have been discovered.
Perhaps you're trying to argue for fossilized computers? While certainly possible that the occasional circuit board might leave an imprint, there'll hardly be as many as you seem to be advocating for. And if you want to go there, I can bring up a few unusual fossil discoveries that tend to get shoveled into the crackpot zone.
Ok, I want to talk a bit further about the VOY episode Distant Origin, because it seems to me there are some plot holes.
The Voth Gegen finds remains of a Starfleet crew member. It appears to be a member of the Voyager. Now my questions are. How did he/she get there, what was he/she doing, how did he/she die. Why wasn't he/she being searched for and taken back to the ship.
All these question can't be answered of course, we only might guess. I do think it is hard to believe Voyager leaves someone behind as MIA. Is that a Starfleet doctrine? Join us and explore the universe. The universe is mighty big so you may get lost. When that happens .... God knows if you are ever heard from again.
An irony is in the story of Distant Origin. The Voth, an intelligent dinosaur races lives on earth. They live and leave without leaving any trace of their existence. Millions of millions years later a human spaceship comes into their new hemospere and leaves a trace behind which is found.
Good, thanks for these answers. This clears something up. Well, who am I to judge a story.
What happened with standard security precautions when exploring strange new worlds. Is there life, is it dangerous. Did nobody of the crew ever saw a movie from the Aliens sequel? Oh, wait that is another universe.
None of that is what's being debated. The fact (via hard evidence) remains that there are fossils found everywhere all over the world, i.e. aspects of life long before us. In other words, there's a mountain of proof.
When it comes to humanoid remains i.E. (species of genus Homo) your "Mountain" of proof fits in a suitcase ... and pretty much all of these findings are only single bones or fragments, meaning all we can basically do is TRY to reconstruct these life-forms the right way...
Hate to break it to you , but neither Archeology nor Paleontology is an exact science ... most of it is only theories (even if those theories sound plausible at the time, lots of them were already proven wrong)
Moreover there are probably millions of species who never left any fossils or we just haven't found them (yet), being the "Voth" one of these species, wouldn't be completely impossible ... and even if they would find single fossilized bones of some Voth, reconstruction of these, is a different matter (maybe some hypothetical ST Paleontologist found some [proto-]Voth fossils, and thought it's just another baby Hadrosaur i.E.) ... like others have said, of course fossilization would happen, but it doesn't necessarily happen to EVERY species who ever walked the Earth ... otherwise we wouldn't have "missing links" in our own lineage ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
When it comes to humanoid remains i.E. (species of genus Homo) your "Mountain" of proof fits in a suitcase ... and pretty much all of these findings are only single bones or fragments, meaning all we can basically do is TRY to reconstruct these life-forms the right way...
Hate to break it to you , but neither Archeology nor Paleontology is an exact science ... most of it is only theories (even if those theories sound plausible at the time, lots of them were already proven wrong)
Moreover there are probably millions of species who never left any fossils or we just haven't found them (yet), being the "Voth" one of these species, wouldn't be completely impossible ... and even if they would find single fossilized bones of some Voth, reconstruction of these, is a different matter (maybe some hypothetical ST Paleontologist found some [proto-]Voth fossils, and thought it's just another baby Hadrosaur i.E.) ... like others have said, of course fossilization would happen, but it doesn't necessarily happen to EVERY species who ever walked the Earth ... otherwise we wouldn't have "missing links" in our own lineage ...
Yes, I once tried to estimate the percentage of fossil bearing rocks that have been examined by paleontologists.... Didn't work, but the main conclusion is that only a small fraction of rocks that might have fossils have been looked at... Some of what we HAVE found makes no sense to paleontologists!
Sadly, the crew made the terrible, terrible mistake of listening to Neelix. That's bad enough in itself, but it's made worse that in this instance (namely Neelix pretending to have surivial skills that didn't actually exist), said mistake cost Hogan his life.
Neelix is the worst character in Star Trek ever. He is Star Trek's equivalent to Jar Jar.
And that is a good example of the plot in the Voth Voyager episode. A 600 million year old fossilized humanoid footprints getting dismissed and discredited because current accepted DOCTRINE says they can't possibly exist.
Note to self: Never mention politics or religion
That's actually realistic. A passing familiarity with the news can tell you that opposing political parties rigidly adhere to their own doctrine with no middle ground - and that's within a single country.
Religions (any of them) have their own doctrine which is not up for debate.
Sadly, the crew made the terrible, terrible mistake of listening to Neelix. That's bad enough in itself, but it's made worse that in this instance (namely Neelix pretending to have surivial skills that didn't actually exist), said mistake cost Hogan his life.
The stupid part is, this wasn't even the first time he endangered the crew through his own utter bollocking incompetence. Just off the top of my head, he nearly destroyed Voyager with his cooking back in season one.
I don't care what Starfleet regulations say. If he'd tried that on the Andraste, I'd have shot him in the face and used his corpse for replicator mass.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I just found the distance theory really stupid. Dinosaurs in space is not something that requires explanation. Dinosaurs in space. Come on. That's all you need to know.
Yeah it was too Saturday morning cartoon. Voyager had a few episodes that were just over the top campy like that. The one where they meet Amelia Earhart comes to mind.
FYI the Voth are in 3 episodes I believe. Dinosaurs in space in just silly.
A TIME TO SEARCH: ENTER MY FOUNDRY MISSION at the RISA SYSTEM Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
Yeah it was too Saturday morning cartoon. Voyager had a few episodes that were just over the top campy like that. The one where they meet Amelia Earhart comes to mind.
FYI the Voth are in 3 episodes I believe. Dinosaurs in space in just silly.
The Amelia Earhart episode wasn't that stupid. Corny, but TOS had Space Lincoln. :rolleyes:
I don't think I said anywhere that fossils don't happen. I even made reference to fossils in that post that you're replying to.
So, yeah, while you're denying building strawmen, you're building them up in great number.
I don't want to do this back and forth reply junk. I disagree with whole premise that "it's TOTALLY possible for dinosaurs to have had advanced technology, and BTW, there'd be no evidence of it today because the Discovery Channel video proved it". It's total nonsense because everything I suggested as an example of preserving evidence of life from the past can and will happen again. Fibers, imprints, bones, jewelry, glass or plastic containers with contents, etc. etc. etc. - there's a chance that any or all of those at some point are going to get caught in any number of natural preservation "traps" and be unearthed naturally. Re: Dinosaur footprints. Re: Amber. Re: Ice.
Furthermore, the biological evidence we have of dinosaur bone and brain structures demonstrate that they were incapable of grasping objects and concepts which would allow for them to have anything that could even propel them to the Bronze Age, never mind the Space Age.
Strawman?
The fact you're trying to convince me that a fake race of dino-sheep decedents could be existing right now using a video of a show using fake footage from a future that hasn't even happened yet makes your accusation just a mountain of "Pot-Kettle-Black."
This thread is quite interesting. Could dinosaurs exist in space and what does that mean to our extinct friends at the Natural Science Museum? It does seem that cryptic has jumped the shark a bit with the Voth. Or perhaps they have "Mechanized the T.rex" if you would allow such a phrase. I would like to offer a few points of clarification, as for some reason there seems to be a lot of confusion about evolutionary theory and its evolution.
Hindsight is 50/50
First though, lets talk about the Voth's evolution in game. Some commenters are offering that the Voth's inclusion is related to cryptic's poll for more Voyager content. But the first promo spire pictures were released before the first poll that decided that there would be more Voyager content. Hence why the Voth were not included in this poll either:
So I suppose the Voyager rage will have to continue through season 9, as the Voth are just the tip of the iceberg.
Religion, Science and History
The term missing link is being thrown around rather sloppily in this thread. Most contemporary Anthropologists and Archaeologists don't use the term, because it is a term created by creationists to problematize evolution. There are plenty of links in the fossil record, and most scientists don't see the gaps in the record as problematic, because of many of the points that were made about the rarity of fossils. But another reason is because the pivotal fossils show what a "missing link" is suppose to show, a transition in a series of undocumented transitions.
That being said, if there had been humanoid dinosaurs regardless of whether or not they had fossils, we would suspect that they would have at some point struck coins or jewelry or carved hieroglyphs into stones. And although it has been 65 million years, we could reasonably hypothesize that something like that could survive. However, with our scientific bias, we would likely assume those things were created by humans (though they could come from other humanoids like neanderthals, or less likely ancient aliens). Also non carbon material like stones and metals can't properly be carbon dated, so we couldn't identify with any certainty when they came from anyway.
Also to say a raptor is more likely to evolve into a huminoid makes little sense also. Evolution is not in one direction, it can be what some people mistakenly refer to as "devolution" as well. Although social Darwinists like Herbert Spencer speculated "survival of the fittest," most scientists see evolution as simply change that is neither building towards nor away from anything.
Lets assume that our developers were not pandering to the lowest common denominator and cared about modern scientific theory. Wouldn't it be great if lazer rex had a plume of feathers, after all modern paleontologists think that they might have. Of course the Voth were created with 10 year old theories that had dinosaurs looking more like lizards, but modern speculation has them looking more like chickens.
"Missing Links"
One writer has offered that faith has points that cannot be debated. I am not sure what is meant by this. Isn't theology the rationalization of faith? One thing that is brilliant about the Voth is that they point out the similarity of doctrinal science and doctrinal religion. Neither are static, because both are constantly being reinterpreted in light of the most recent evidence or trends of human thinking. Shouldn't our science fiction also take such trends into consideration?
the name of what was a newly discovered particle that traveled faster than light?
and where were those names taken from?
I think icsairguns is talking about neutrinos, but that term was not coined by Star Trek. From our friend Wikipedia:
"Enrico Fermi, who developed the theory of beta decay, coined the term neutrino (the Italian equivalent of "little neutral one") in 1933 as a way to resolve the confusion."
Also the idea that neutrinos travel faster than light has largely been debunked by the scientific community (Although I suppose that could change as well)
Perhaps he/she meant tachyons? If so, he/she still fails basic research. To quote the article on Wikipedia:
In the 1967 paper that coined the term,[1] Feinberg proposed that tachyonic particles could be quanta of a quantum field with negative squared mass. However, it was soon realized that excitations of such imaginary mass fields do not in fact propagate faster than light,[4] and instead represent an instability known as tachyon condensation.[2] Nevertheless, negative squared mass fields are commonly referred to as "tachyons",[5] and in fact have come to play an important role in modern physics.
Despite theoretical arguments against the existence of faster-than-light particles, experiments have been conducted to search for them. No compelling evidence for their existence has been found.[6]
I don't want to do this back and forth reply junk. I disagree with whole premise that "it's TOTALLY possible for dinosaurs to have had advanced technology, and BTW, there'd be no evidence of it today because the Discovery Channel video proved it". It's total nonsense because everything I suggested as an example of preserving evidence of life from the past can and will happen again. Fibers, imprints, bones, jewelry, glass or plastic containers with contents, etc. etc. etc. - there's a chance that any or all of those at some point are going to get caught in any number of natural preservation "traps" and be unearthed naturally. Re: Dinosaur footprints. Re: Amber. Re: Ice.
Furthermore, the biological evidence we have of dinosaur bone and brain structures demonstrate that they were incapable of grasping objects and concepts which would allow for them to have anything that could even propel them to the Bronze Age, never mind the Space Age.
Strawman?
The fact you're trying to convince me that a fake race of dino-sheep decedents could be existing right now using a video of a show using fake footage from a future that hasn't even happened yet makes your accusation just a mountain of "Pot-Kettle-Black."
:rolleyes:
All right, here we go, on to the anomalous artifacts and fossils that get shoveled into the crackpot area.
The Coso Artifact - California, 1961, a geode estimated to be 500,000 years old is found containing a mysterious metallic device including a spring-like structure at one end like a spark plug.
Ancient sandaled footprint - Utah, 1968, a rock estimated to be 500 million years old from the Cambrian period is found to possess an imprint that resembles a footprint wearing a sandal.
Wolfsegg Iron - Austria, 1885, a coal deposit 20 million years old yields a mysterious metallic object.
Metallic tubes - France, 1968, semi-ovoid metallic tubes are found buried in a vein of 65-million year old Cretaceous chalk.
Ancient human footprint - New Mexico, 1983, a human footprint is found in fossilized mud estimated to be 290 million years old.
Ancient springs, screws, and metal - Russia, 1990s, various components unmistakable for springs, screws and so forth were found to be buried in layers of rock from the Pleistocene era.
Ancient metal rod - China, a black, hard rock estimated to be millions of years old is found with a peculiar metal rod inside it.
The Williams Enigmalith - 1998, in an otherwise unremarkable rock, is imbedded what is obviously a power plug. The rock itself is estimated to be 100 thousand years old.
Aiud aluminum artifact - Romania, 1974, an object of pure aluminum, clearly manufactured, is found near a river beside mastodon bones. If the same age as the bones, it would make this object at least 11,000 years old.
Fossilized hammer - Texas, 1936, a modern hammer is found fossilized in limestone rock which estimated to be 110 million years old.
Coal skull - Pennsylvania, 1981, an anthropoid skull is found buried in a coal vein dated to be 280 million years old.
Reck's skeleton - Africa, 1913, a fossilized humanoid skeleton is found and carbon dated to be 1.15 million years old.
Granted, there's probably real explanations for these Out of Place Artifacts (OOPArt), but they make great inspiration for science fiction material... like Star Trek. You wanted fossilized remains of Voth civilization? Here they are, the right stuff for the job for a science fiction universe.
All right, here we go, on to the anomalous artifacts and fossils that get shoveled into the crackpot area.
The Coso Artifact - California, 1961, a geode estimated to be 500,000 years old is found containing a mysterious metallic device including a spring-like structure at one end like a spark plug.
Ancient sandaled footprint - Utah, 1968, a rock estimated to be 500 million years old from the Cambrian period is found to possess an imprint that resembles a footprint wearing a sandal.
Wolfsegg Iron - Austria, 1885, a coal deposit 20 million years old yields a mysterious metallic object.
Metallic tubes - France, 1968, semi-ovoid metallic tubes are found buried in a vein of 65-million year old Cretaceous chalk.
Ancient human footprint - New Mexico, 1983, a human footprint is found in fossilized mud estimated to be 290 million years old.
Ancient springs, screws, and metal - Russia, 1990s, various components unmistakable for springs, screws and so forth were found to be buried in layers of rock from the Pleistocene era.
Ancient metal rod - China, a black, hard rock estimated to be millions of years old is found with a peculiar metal rod inside it.
The Williams Enigmalith - 1998, in an otherwise unremarkable rock, is imbedded what is obviously a power plug. The rock itself is estimated to be 100 thousand years old.
Aiud aluminum artifact - Romania, 1974, an object of pure aluminum, clearly manufactured, is found near a river beside mastodon bones. If the same age as the bones, it would make this object at least 11,000 years old.
Fossilized hammer - Texas, 1936, a modern hammer is found fossilized in limestone rock which estimated to be 110 million years old.
Coal skull - Pennsylvania, 1981, an anthropoid skull is found buried in a coal vein dated to be 280 million years old.
Reck's skeleton - Africa, 1913, a fossilized humanoid skeleton is found and carbon dated to be 1.15 million years old.
Granted, there's probably real explanations for these Out of Place Artifacts (OOPArt), but they make great inspiration for science fiction material... like Star Trek. You wanted fossilized remains of Voth civilization? Here they are, the right stuff for the job for a science fiction universe.
Most of these can be explained away by humans love to pull pranks on other humans. Or there are certain natural processes that can make it seem like a modern instrument is covered in rock millions of years old.
Most of these can be explained away by humans love to pull pranks on other humans. Or there are certain natural processes that can make it seem like a modern instrument is covered in rock millions of years old.
Those footprints are obviously left over from the time the Doctor and Romana went back in time to make sure the Jaggeroth spaceship exploded like it was supposed to. :rolleyes:
Those footprints are obviously left over from the time the Doctor and Romana went back in time to make sure the Jaggeroth spaceship exploded like it was supposed to. :rolleyes:
Actually, all of it was me in my younger and more foolish years as a Time Traveler. I was pretty clumsy back then. The guilt about saying it was hoaxes and natural processes has forced me to confess to it all.
Those footprints are obviously left over from the time the Doctor and Romana went back in time to make sure the Jaggeroth spaceship exploded like it was supposed to. :rolleyes:
Now that's the kind of point I was trying to make. You get brownies.
Comments
Precisely, Jon.
I don't think I said anywhere that fossils don't happen. I even made reference to fossils in that post that you're replying to.
So, yeah, while you're denying building strawmen, you're building them up in great number.
And actually what I listed is being debated, otherwise why would we be having this debate?
You're not trying to change the... subject are you?
What has this got to do with "safety" from Pompeii and mudslides? I've made no claims that no one is killed by these things. In fact, I'd quite expect that people will die from such things again.
It's very hard to make a fossil. First the remains actually have to last long enough to encounter the conditions to be fossilized, then the conditions, which have to be just right, have to happen. It's a real roll of the dice. There's a reason why most fossils are incomplete.
You must have missed the part where it stated that this kind of fossil was rare. As in, not common. Unusual. And so forth.
Something's clearly going over someone's head, but I don't think it's what or who you think.
No, this is not a discussion about volcano or hiking safety.
Are you forgetting what fictional universe is being discussed in relation to the Voth? Spock? Deanna Troi? Alexander Rozhenko? B'Ellanna Torres? Any of those names ring a bell and bring to mind what was special about them?
Last I checked, that episode was still canon. The only episode that I know of that was struck from canon was "Threshold" from Voyager.
What happens when the pyramids run out of outside to protect the inside? I don't expect much to be left after that point. Hell, to bring in another Egyptian treasure, the only reason we still have a Sphinx today is because of all the repairs that have been made to it over the centuries.
Dinosaur tracks, neat. Great, we can catalog them with the other tracks that have been discovered.
Perhaps you're trying to argue for fossilized computers? While certainly possible that the occasional circuit board might leave an imprint, there'll hardly be as many as you seem to be advocating for. And if you want to go there, I can bring up a few unusual fossil discoveries that tend to get shoveled into the crackpot zone.
i would have watched that!!!!!
system Lord Baal is dead
The Voth Gegen finds remains of a Starfleet crew member. It appears to be a member of the Voyager. Now my questions are. How did he/she get there, what was he/she doing, how did he/she die. Why wasn't he/she being searched for and taken back to the ship.
All these question can't be answered of course, we only might guess. I do think it is hard to believe Voyager leaves someone behind as MIA. Is that a Starfleet doctrine? Join us and explore the universe. The universe is mighty big so you may get lost. When that happens .... God knows if you are ever heard from again.
An irony is in the story of Distant Origin. The Voth, an intelligent dinosaur races lives on earth. They live and leave without leaving any trace of their existence. Millions of millions years later a human spaceship comes into their new hemospere and leaves a trace behind which is found.
What happened with standard security precautions when exploring strange new worlds. Is there life, is it dangerous. Did nobody of the crew ever saw a movie from the Aliens sequel? Oh, wait that is another universe.
When it comes to humanoid remains i.E. (species of genus Homo) your "Mountain" of proof fits in a suitcase ... and pretty much all of these findings are only single bones or fragments, meaning all we can basically do is TRY to reconstruct these life-forms the right way...
Hate to break it to you , but neither Archeology nor Paleontology is an exact science ... most of it is only theories (even if those theories sound plausible at the time, lots of them were already proven wrong)
Moreover there are probably millions of species who never left any fossils or we just haven't found them (yet), being the "Voth" one of these species, wouldn't be completely impossible ... and even if they would find single fossilized bones of some Voth, reconstruction of these, is a different matter (maybe some hypothetical ST Paleontologist found some [proto-]Voth fossils, and thought it's just another baby Hadrosaur i.E.) ... like others have said, of course fossilization would happen, but it doesn't necessarily happen to EVERY species who ever walked the Earth ... otherwise we wouldn't have "missing links" in our own lineage ...
Then there's the matter that Starfleet buries their dead at space.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQUePN5y40
My character Tsin'xing
Neelix is the worst character in Star Trek ever. He is Star Trek's equivalent to Jar Jar.
Note to self: Never mention politics or religion
That's actually realistic. A passing familiarity with the news can tell you that opposing political parties rigidly adhere to their own doctrine with no middle ground - and that's within a single country.
Religions (any of them) have their own doctrine which is not up for debate.
The stupid part is, this wasn't even the first time he endangered the crew through his own utter bollocking incompetence. Just off the top of my head, he nearly destroyed Voyager with his cooking back in season one.
I don't care what Starfleet regulations say. If he'd tried that on the Andraste, I'd have shot him in the face and used his corpse for replicator mass.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Yeah it was too Saturday morning cartoon. Voyager had a few episodes that were just over the top campy like that. The one where they meet Amelia Earhart comes to mind.
FYI the Voth are in 3 episodes I believe. Dinosaurs in space in just silly.
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
The Amelia Earhart episode wasn't that stupid. Corny, but TOS had Space Lincoln. :rolleyes:
I think lincolninspace knows that.
It's... quite ironic though.
Furthermore, the biological evidence we have of dinosaur bone and brain structures demonstrate that they were incapable of grasping objects and concepts which would allow for them to have anything that could even propel them to the Bronze Age, never mind the Space Age.
Strawman?
The fact you're trying to convince me that a fake race of dino-sheep decedents could be existing right now using a video of a show using fake footage from a future that hasn't even happened yet makes your accusation just a mountain of "Pot-Kettle-Black."
:rolleyes:
Hindsight is 50/50
First though, lets talk about the Voth's evolution in game. Some commenters are offering that the Voth's inclusion is related to cryptic's poll for more Voyager content. But the first promo spire pictures were released before the first poll that decided that there would be more Voyager content. Hence why the Voth were not included in this poll either:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=835111
So I suppose the Voyager rage will have to continue through season 9, as the Voth are just the tip of the iceberg.
Religion, Science and History
The term missing link is being thrown around rather sloppily in this thread. Most contemporary Anthropologists and Archaeologists don't use the term, because it is a term created by creationists to problematize evolution. There are plenty of links in the fossil record, and most scientists don't see the gaps in the record as problematic, because of many of the points that were made about the rarity of fossils. But another reason is because the pivotal fossils show what a "missing link" is suppose to show, a transition in a series of undocumented transitions.
That being said, if there had been humanoid dinosaurs regardless of whether or not they had fossils, we would suspect that they would have at some point struck coins or jewelry or carved hieroglyphs into stones. And although it has been 65 million years, we could reasonably hypothesize that something like that could survive. However, with our scientific bias, we would likely assume those things were created by humans (though they could come from other humanoids like neanderthals, or less likely ancient aliens). Also non carbon material like stones and metals can't properly be carbon dated, so we couldn't identify with any certainty when they came from anyway.
Also to say a raptor is more likely to evolve into a huminoid makes little sense also. Evolution is not in one direction, it can be what some people mistakenly refer to as "devolution" as well. Although social Darwinists like Herbert Spencer speculated "survival of the fittest," most scientists see evolution as simply change that is neither building towards nor away from anything.
Lets assume that our developers were not pandering to the lowest common denominator and cared about modern scientific theory. Wouldn't it be great if lazer rex had a plume of feathers, after all modern paleontologists think that they might have. Of course the Voth were created with 10 year old theories that had dinosaurs looking more like lizards, but modern speculation has them looking more like chickens.
"Missing Links"
One writer has offered that faith has points that cannot be debated. I am not sure what is meant by this. Isn't theology the rationalization of faith? One thing that is brilliant about the Voth is that they point out the similarity of doctrinal science and doctrinal religion. Neither are static, because both are constantly being reinterpreted in light of the most recent evidence or trends of human thinking. Shouldn't our science fiction also take such trends into consideration?
One last point I couldn't figure out:
I think icsairguns is talking about neutrinos, but that term was not coined by Star Trek. From our friend Wikipedia:
"Enrico Fermi, who developed the theory of beta decay, coined the term neutrino (the Italian equivalent of "little neutral one") in 1933 as a way to resolve the confusion."
Also the idea that neutrinos travel faster than light has largely been debunked by the scientific community (Although I suppose that could change as well)
All right, here we go, on to the anomalous artifacts and fossils that get shoveled into the crackpot area.
The Coso Artifact - California, 1961, a geode estimated to be 500,000 years old is found containing a mysterious metallic device including a spring-like structure at one end like a spark plug.
Ancient sandaled footprint - Utah, 1968, a rock estimated to be 500 million years old from the Cambrian period is found to possess an imprint that resembles a footprint wearing a sandal.
Wolfsegg Iron - Austria, 1885, a coal deposit 20 million years old yields a mysterious metallic object.
Metallic tubes - France, 1968, semi-ovoid metallic tubes are found buried in a vein of 65-million year old Cretaceous chalk.
Ancient human footprint - New Mexico, 1983, a human footprint is found in fossilized mud estimated to be 290 million years old.
Ancient springs, screws, and metal - Russia, 1990s, various components unmistakable for springs, screws and so forth were found to be buried in layers of rock from the Pleistocene era.
Ancient metal rod - China, a black, hard rock estimated to be millions of years old is found with a peculiar metal rod inside it.
The Williams Enigmalith - 1998, in an otherwise unremarkable rock, is imbedded what is obviously a power plug. The rock itself is estimated to be 100 thousand years old.
Aiud aluminum artifact - Romania, 1974, an object of pure aluminum, clearly manufactured, is found near a river beside mastodon bones. If the same age as the bones, it would make this object at least 11,000 years old.
Fossilized hammer - Texas, 1936, a modern hammer is found fossilized in limestone rock which estimated to be 110 million years old.
Coal skull - Pennsylvania, 1981, an anthropoid skull is found buried in a coal vein dated to be 280 million years old.
Reck's skeleton - Africa, 1913, a fossilized humanoid skeleton is found and carbon dated to be 1.15 million years old.
Granted, there's probably real explanations for these Out of Place Artifacts (OOPArt), but they make great inspiration for science fiction material... like Star Trek. You wanted fossilized remains of Voth civilization? Here they are, the right stuff for the job for a science fiction universe.
Most of these can be explained away by humans love to pull pranks on other humans. Or there are certain natural processes that can make it seem like a modern instrument is covered in rock millions of years old.
That's not the point. No brownies for you.
this comes to mind
system Lord Baal is dead
What about Data's head? http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Time's_Arrow_(episode)
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
Actually, all of it was me in my younger and more foolish years as a Time Traveler. I was pretty clumsy back then. The guilt about saying it was hoaxes and natural processes has forced me to confess to it all.
Now that's the kind of point I was trying to make. You get brownies.