Now we're getting Voth? How...Why...What did I miss?
Obviously Cryptic decided to go with Voth before they did that poll. We will encounter the Krenim eventually. Personally, I see the Voth as an enemy more than I see the Krenim. The only interaction Voyager had with the Krenim is just a 10 second chat telling Voyager to be careful. When we do encounter the Krenim, it is extremely doubtful that they will be enemies.
I loved Voyager because that was the only Star Trek show that had a ship captain that was female, though I think Dr Crusher was captain of a medical or science vessel in the TNG episode where Picard was charged by Q to have ended the existence of Man.
I don't quite understand why there is an argument going on about why there is no archaeological evidence in the real world of (the Voth) from a fictional television series.
Of course it's a personal choice, but I don't understand why people trying to reconcile minutae in fiction with reality.
As for people mocking TOS for not being "plausible", you're missing the point - one of the key intentions of Star Trek was as allegory in Science Fiction trappings.
Nimoy's idea, as expressed to Meyer, was "You know, the Klingons have always been our stand-ins for the Russian. How about, The Wall comes down in space?"
Obviously Cryptic decided to go with Voth before they did that poll. We will encounter the Krenim eventually. Personally, I see the Voth as an enemy more than I see the Krenim. The only interaction Voyager had with the Krenim is just a 10 second chat telling Voyager to be careful. When we do encounter the Krenim, it is extremely doubtful that they will be enemies.
It's a combat video game and they're fascists. Of course we'll fight them. Heck, we may fight them in multiple timelines/eras.
That was very interesting. Thanks for the link. Yet I do not concur. Just as we find traces of prehistoric life, we will find traces of prehistoric intelligent life.
The documentary has also some flaws. House cats that will live in the remnants of sky crappers might evolve an abillity to glyde through air. That is a mighty long proces for a couple of thousands of years, yet large structures will be demolished and struck down by the force of nature in a couple of hundred years or even faster. I see a paradox.
Cats already show the potential for being able to glide. How do you think they have a tendency to land on their feet even from steep heights? They have a slight bit of flesh between their hind and fore legs that can act as a parachute similar to a flying squirrel. Once they reach terminal velocity, they go limp and stretch their legs out and glide the rest of the distance down.
So, they don't actually have as far to go to reach the documentary's gliding cats as you seem to think.
Saw that when it was released, good show for fun but factualy garbage.
We are finding 100k year old mud bricks and charcoal from a campfire today. imagine the remains of a computer considering after 2 seasons the campfire will not be noticeable and the computer would just be dirty if in the open. concrete and steel? left in the open for the 100 years the show talks about yes there will be rot, but think.. mud bricks have lasted thousands upon thousands of years and they are made from mud and grass, throw water on them and they rot away to a pile of mud with grass stems embedded. steel reinforced concrete even if the steel rusted away would be quite obvious for what it is simply by the composition of the material.
If we humans with minimal space capabilities today just blinked out of exhistance and 65 million years later some other species with atleast 5 archeology teams investigated earth they will discover and know we existed. give them a year and they will make jokes about how ignorant we are.
Considering that mud structures actually don't last very long at all without maintenance or some form of artificial protection, I'm calling BS on your comment. Unless you can provide evidence of these mud huts that're 100k years? But to equate them with steel and concrete is laughable anyway. The compositions are completely different. The steel structures will be the first to go, since rust will eat that up like candy.
Heck, when we find steel items from earlier ages, they're in very terrible shape. Such artifacts have to be handled with more care than stone artifacts. Any iron mass will rust away and disintegrate due time.
Yeah, concrete will last longer than the steel, but even that will crumble. Someone brought up the Great Wall of China earlier, and while that'd likely last for thousands of years, the parts we popularly see in photographs are actually the parts in the best shape. There's many areas of the Wall that're run down to little more than dirt.
But apparently jetwtf is smarter than the experts interviewed who've been studying this stuff for years. No, according to him, computers are immune to the effects of entropy based on 100k year mud huts that he claims we've discovered.
I guess you never watched Year of Hell Part 1 and Year of Hell Part 2.
LANG: They're firing on us, Captain.
TUVOK: It's a small vessel, fifteen lifeforms aboard. Low warp capacity, limited armaments. They pose no threat.
JANEWAY: Open a channel. Good day, sir. Have we offended you in some way?
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: You will reverse course immediately. This region is in dispute. You have no business in Krenim space.
JANEWAY: I was under the impression we were entering Zahl territory.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: The Zahl have no legitimate claim here. They have taken what is ours, Reverse course or be destroyed.
JANEWAY: With all due respect, unless you've got something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes I'm not turning around, but I'm certainly willing to discuss this issue with you.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: No discussion! No compromise!
TUVOK: They are in retreat.
CHAKOTAY: His bark's obviously worse than his bite.
JANEWAY: He seems rather intent. Let's go to yellow alert. Maintain our course. Maybe the Zahl can give us some answers.
DAY 4
JANEWAY: Hello again.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: You've ignored our warnings, and now you consort with our enemy.
ZAHL OFFICIAL: Leave this space or I'll seize your vessel and send you home in a cargo container.
JANEWAY: Gentlemen, please. Believe me, we're not conspiring against you.
KIM: Captain, there's a spatial distortion heading towards us. Whatever it is, it's huge. Five light years across and it's expanding.
TUVOK: Tracking it's origin. A vessel near the Zahl homeworld.
ZAHL OFFICIAL: What!
TUVOK: It appears to be a massive build-up of temporal energy. Some kind of space-time shock wave.
JANEWAY: Tom.
PARIS: It's destabilising our warp field. I've lost engines.
JANEWAY: Shields to full. Secure primary systems. All hands, brace for impact!
CHAKOTAY: She's dead.
TUVOK: Shields at seventeen percent. The Krenim are firing again. We're being hailed.
JANEWAY: It's about time. On screen. We've done nothing to provoke these attacks.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: Your presence in our space is provocation enough.
JANEWAY: We've been trying to communicate with your vessels but the only answer I get is weapons fire.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: State your identity.
JANEWAY: Captain Janeway of the Federation Starship Voyager.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: And your reason for violating our borders.
JANEWAY: We're simply trying to get home. If you'd kindly allow us to pass through.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: No. You will submit to the Krenim Imperium. I would prefer to seize your vessel before it is too badly damaged. Surrender now and I will forego the execution of your crew.
JANEWAY: I don't respond well to threats.
KRENIM COMMANDANT [on viewscreen]: Then prepare to be boarded.
JANEWAY: All hands, Battle stations. This is turning into the Week of Hell.
TUVOK: They are charging weapons. Three seconds to impact.
JANEWAY: Evasive manoeuvres.
KIM: Direct hit to our secondary hull.
CHAKOTAY: I still don't understand why these torpedoes are ripping right through our shields.
TUVOK: Their weapons are chronoton based, They're penetrating our shields because they're in a state of temporal flux.
JANEWAY: Then lets exercise the better part of valour. Get us out of here, warp six.
PARIS: Warp six. No sign of pursuit.
JANEWAY: Damage report.
TUVOK: Fifteen wounded, main power is down, we've lost environmental control on decks seven and eight, the computer is offline.
JANEWAY: Mister Kim, do we have any sensors left?
KIM: Short range only.
JANEWAY: Commander, put the ship on twenty four hour tactical alert. Tuvok, analyse whatever data we've got on those chronoton torpedoes. See if you can modify our shielding. When those Krenim attack again, I want to be ready.
That's more than 10 seconds to me heck that's like 20 minutes of the show.
Forgive me this is one of my favorite episodes.
And that whole timeline was eliminated so as far as Voyager knows, it was just 10 seconds of interaction not an entire year. As far as Janeway knows, she never attacked a Krenim Warship, experienced a Year of Hell, or formed an alliance with a bunch of aliens bent on destroying a Krenim Warship. The only member of Voyager that might have a clue that ever happened is Kes since she is no longer corporeal and perhaps Seven since she has too much Borg technology in her head that we don't know what it does. After all, what happens in another timeline stays in another timeline. So I suggest you rewatch the end of the Year of Hell, Part II.
Seriously, people watch this. I chose this documentary since it's frankly the simplest way to explain the science. It very much explains that if we just plain ceased to exist right now, in just a few hundred years, all of our cities will have pretty much rusted away into dust. Steel, concrete, all of it; it does not last.
And in tens of millions of years? There'd be no trace of us at all. Time and nature claim everything; it's called entropy.
Then there is no reason for environmentalists to be upset about stuff humans make since apparently everything is bio-degradable.
Also by this logic, there should be ZERO evidence of anything that existed in the past.
Why is there evidence?
Why would similar circumstances not repeat in your hypothetical future scenario?
Where is the evidence that a hadrosaur could evolve to a point where it could create technology?
How could they surpass the Troodon which had a (theoretically) superior brain and much more ambulatory digits on its front limbs?
You guys keep reposting that Discovery Channel 8:00 special as if it's evidence from the future, yet ignore well-known studied aspects about the biology of dinosaurs which point to the Hadrosaurids being giant dino-sheep who did not have and could not have had advanced technology.
I just found the distance theory really stupid. Dinosaurs in space is not something that requires explanation. Dinosaurs in space. Come on. That's all you need to know.
If you think that is funny, imagine lizards in space, GORN...or imagine apes in space... modern day Humans... imagine whales in space... I think it makes more sense than all others. They evolved, they left, and now they are returning. Also, I love that now I can watch the old tv show, Dinosaurs, and know that all that actually happened. In a strict fictional sense of course.
that only if you dont think out side the box i dont need hard explanations for every thing that happens in trek if i did i never get past one EP of any of the treks and im sure if we all looked hard enough we could find little things throughout all the trek like Voy torpedoes log
If you go out of your way to establish limitations on the ship and crew, you should darned well be expected to explain how those limitations are overcome.
Here's the thing. Then entire concept of the show was that the ship was cut off from home, lost, with limited resources and a decades-long journey ahead of them.
They went out of their way to emphasize how well and truly screwed they were in the early days. They specifically mentioned how many torpedoes they had on board, and that they had "no way to replace them." They specifically mentioned the number of shuttlecraft they had on board (I think). The writers specifically arranged for half the crew to be Maquis, hostile to Starfleet.
And what did they do with all of this conceptual setup? Practically nothing. The limitations imposed by the concept were ignored at almost every opportunity, instead of used to generate tension in the stories. Tensions among the crew almost never occurred. Janeway and her crew would alternate between being desperate to find a way home and carrying out standard, TNG-style exploration missions. As mentioned by other posters, the show had no idea what it wanted to be. It had no voice. There were a handful of good stories, and a couple of good characters, but its execution of its premise was badly flawed.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
And that whole timeline was eliminated so as far as Voyager knows, it was just 10 seconds of interaction not an entire year. As far as Janeway knows, she never attacked a Krenim Warship, experienced a Year of Hell, or formed an alliance with a bunch of aliens bent on destroying a Krenim Warship. The only member of Voyager that might have a clue that ever happened is Kes since she is no longer corporeal and perhaps Seven since she has too much Borg technology in her head that we don't know what it does. After all, what happens in another timeline stays in another timeline. So I suggest you rewatch the end of the Year of Hell, Part II.
Do you also remember how it all ended?
"On Kyana Prime, Annorax sits at a desk in his home, working on a large PADD. His wife comes to him and asks him to join her for breakfast and he tells her he will do so in a little while but he still has "a few more calculations". She lovingly chides him that he always says that and reaches her hand out to him, sweet-talking him into putting the PADD down and spending the day with her. He rises and takes her hand with a smile and they leave together.
The work he was doing on the PADD is seen... it is temporal incursion calculations."
It may as well be that Janeway postponed the inevitable or that it should have happened later in the first place and events that started the whole temporal incursion business was set in the motion in the past before that ship was ever built. Effect being cause for effect in this case. It is bit of paradox but still it could start many things in motion.
"On Kyana Prime, Annorax sits at a desk in his home, working on a large PADD. His wife comes to him and asks him to join her for breakfast and he tells her he will do so in a little while but he still has "a few more calculations". She lovingly chides him that he always says that and reaches her hand out to him, sweet-talking him into putting the PADD down and spending the day with her. He rises and takes her hand with a smile and they leave together.
The work he was doing on the PADD is seen... it is temporal incursion calculations."
It may as well be that Janeway postponed the inevitable or that it should have happened later in the first place and events that started the whole temporal incursion business was set in the motion in the past before that ship was ever built. Effect being cause for effect in this case. It is bit of paradox but still it could start many things in motion.
Pure speculation. Annorax could have just decided to shelf those calculations and never get them to a workable stage, but the point is that the only interaction with the Federation and the Krenim is a 10 second conversation. The Krenim might be a threat to the Federation in the future, but they are a minor footnote in Voyager's journey and it definitely won't be due to Voyager that they are enemies with the Federation.
Pure speculation. Annorax could have just decided to shelf those calculations and never get them to a workable stage, but the point is that the only interaction with the Federation and the Krenim is a 10 second conversation. The Krenim might be a threat to the Federation in the future, but they are a minor footnote in Voyager's journey and it definitely won't be due to Voyager that they are enemies with the Federation.
This is true, pure speculation. If something, at least Annorax would be thankful to Voyager of their action if he ever found out what happened in that timeline. If memory serves, he was trying to fix his mistake but only Voyager managed to do that for him in the end by destroying that ship and restoring the right timeline plus restoring his love in the process.
They are very unlikely enemy but other of his people could see that differently if they ever find out which is also very unlikely.
Then there is no reason for environmentalists to be upset about stuff humans make since apparently everything is bio-degradable.
No, they're upset because of how long it takes some things to break down as well as some of the toxic materials that are released when that happens.
Everything breaks down eventually. There is no true immortality in this universe. Even the stars don't live forever. We're nothing compared to the forces of nature. Just look at how massive storms, quakes and waves wipe away everything we build and strive for in the areas that they hit. We're nothing more than mere gnats compared to what this planet can throw at us.
Once we're gone as a species, nature will spend no time to remember us, as we're insignificant in our impact in this universe as were the dinosaurs. We might as well not exist because ultimately all of our hard work will be for naught with nary a trace of our existence.
That may seem a bit nihilist to some, but that's the way entropy works. It claims everything.
Also by this logic, there should be ZERO evidence of anything that existed in the past.
Ah, the classic strawman fallacy. As someone highlighted earlier, there would be curious strands of metal purities buried in the layers of rock that would not be able to occur naturally. However, you'd only be able to find it if you knew what you're looking for.
Why is there evidence?
Fossilization and layering of Earth is the only evidence we possess of the distant past, and as highlighted earlier, fossilization is a very rare process--most remains don't last long enough to become fossils. Our ancient, stone monuments have only survived because it takes longer for stone to erode and because throughout history, humans have occasionally administered repair to these structures.
Why would similar circumstances not repeat in your hypothetical future scenario?
Who would be maintaining anything once we're gone? The cockroaches? The dogs? You think they're secretly hiding the intelligence to carry out maintenance?
Where is the evidence that a hadrosaur could evolve to a point where it could create technology?
How could they surpass the Troodon which had a (theoretically) superior brain and much more ambulatory digits on its front limbs?
You guys keep reposting that Discovery Channel 8:00 special as if it's evidence from the future, yet ignore well-known studied aspects about the biology of dinosaurs which point to the Hadrosaurids being giant dino-sheep who did not have and could not have had advanced technology.
Way to go.
:rolleyes:
That's a whole different discussion and one of the reasons in another thread that I suggested crossbreeding with velociraptors. I honestly have no idea why Voyager's writers chose hadrosaurs, but they did and it's unfortunately it's canon. My beef has just been about the ridiculous "but the ruins!" arguments when it overestimates the lasting power of our modern buildings and underestimates entropy. The pyramids will outlast our modern cities by millennia, and even then they'll erode in the desert winds.
Also, "biodegradeable" =! "degradeable". Radioactives can hardly be considered "biodegradeable" - but over time, they do indeed degrade. Not all entropic destruction is the result of biological processes; there are also seismic and atmospheric matters to consider, as well as the rare (but still occurring) meteoric, asteroidal, or cometary impact. (Read up sometime on the environmental damage that was wrought by the Chicxulub impact. How's planetary firestorms and 12 years of acid rain grab you?)
No, they're upset because of how long it takes some things to break down as well as some of the toxic materials that are released when that happens.
Everything breaks down eventually. There is no true immortality in this universe. Even the stars don't live forever. We're nothing compared to the forces of nature. Just look at how massive storms, quakes and waves wipe away everything we build and strive for in the areas that they hit. We're nothing more than mere gnats compared to what this planet can throw at us.
Once we're gone as a species, nature will spend no time to remember us, as we're insignificant in our impact in this universe as were the dinosaurs. We might as well not exist because ultimately all of our hard work will be for naught with nary a trace of our existence.
That may seem a bit nihilist to some, but that's the way entropy works. It claims everything.
None of that is what's being debated. The fact (via hard evidence) remains that there are fossils found everywhere all over the world, i.e. aspects of life long before us. In other words, there's a mountain of proof. You're basically trying to convince me that the same things which did that before, won't happen again because of your "entropy" scenario which apparently doesn't let things which occurred in the past to produce fossils to occur again in the present or near future for people in the far-flung future to see.
Please let the people who live near Pompeii know that they are totally safe, in addition to anyone who lives in an area prone to mudslides, ice, etc.
Ah, the classic strawman fallacy. As someone highlighted earlier, there would be curious strands of metal purities buried in the layers of rock that would not be able to occur naturally. However, you'd only be able to find it if you knew what you're looking for.
There's nothing "strawman" about anything. You're implying that things which created fossil evidence of life in the past will not occur for things which exist now or in the near future.
Fossilization and layering of Earth is the only evidence we possess of the distant past, and as highlighted earlier, fossilization is a very rare process--most remains don't last long enough to become fossils. Our ancient, stone monuments have only survived because it takes longer for stone to erode and because throughout history, humans have occasionally administered repair to these structures.
And yet new discoveries are uncovered all the time which turn "what is known" right on its head. Latest example is the engorged mosquito found in amber reported on Yahoo just yesterday <--- it occurred in a situation it should not have according to "consensus", a word these days which has become synonymous with "stifling dissent".
Who would be maintaining anything once we're gone? The cockroaches? The dogs? You think they're secretly hiding the intelligence to carry out maintenance?
My statement just went right over your head, didn't it...
See above statements regarding Pompeii, mud, ice, etc.
That's a whole different discussion and one of the reasons in another thread that I suggested crossbreeding with velociraptors.
Which is like suggesting that cross-breeding sheep with tigers is totally normal and can happen in a natural setting.
I honestly have no idea why Voyager's writers chose hadrosaurs, but they did and it's unfortunately it's canon.
Odan and his symbiont would like a word with you...
My beef has just been about the ridiculous "but the ruins!" arguments when it overestimates the lasting power of our modern buildings and underestimates entropy. The pyramids will outlast our modern cities by millennia, and even then they'll erode in the desert winds.
There's nothing ridiculous about it except when you assume people mean things will be out in the open to see. And with regards to "the pyramids", you're also forgetting to fact in the ones which have been buried by the sand. The insides are relatively untouched. The earth may go through some upheavals, but certain things will last when buried or encased by aspects of nature...hence fossil evidence found outside of rock.
The concept was fine; the execution of that concept was a complete disaster.
If you go out of your way to establish limitations on the ship and crew, you should darned well be expected to explain how those limitations are overcome.
Here's the thing. Then entire concept of the show was that the ship was cut off from home, lost, with limited resources and a decades-long journey ahead of them.
They went out of their way to emphasize how well and truly screwed they were in the early days. They specifically mentioned how many torpedoes they had on board, and that they had "no way to replace them." They specifically mentioned the number of shuttlecraft they had on board (I think). The writers specifically arranged for half the crew to be Maquis, hostile to Starfleet.
And what did they do with all of this conceptual setup? Practically nothing. The limitations imposed by the concept were ignored at almost every opportunity, instead of used to generate tension in the stories. Tensions among the crew almost never occurred. Janeway and her crew would alternate between being desperate to find a way home and carrying out standard, TNG-style exploration missions. As mentioned by other posters, the show had no idea what it wanted to be. It had no voice. There were a handful of good stories, and a couple of good characters, but its execution of its premise was badly flawed.
None of that is what's being debated. The fact (via hard evidence) remains that there are fossils found everywhere all over the world, i.e. aspects of life long before us. In other words, there's a mountain of proof. You're basically trying to convince me that the same things which did that before, won't happen again because of your "entropy" scenario which apparently doesn't let things which occurred in the past to produce fossils to occur again in the present or near future for people in the far-flung future to see.
Actually, fossil bones were put on Earth by a Creator with nothing better to do than upset archeologists and give them silly ideas.
Also, "biodegradeable" =! "degradeable". Radioactives can hardly be considered "biodegradeable" - but over time, they do indeed degrade. Not all entropic destruction is the result of biological processes; there are also seismic and atmospheric matters to consider, as well as the rare (but still occurring) meteoric, asteroidal, or cometary impact. (Read up sometime on the environmental damage that was wrought by the Chicxulub impact. How's planetary firestorms and 12 years of acid rain grab you?)
None of that is what's being debated. The fact (via hard evidence) remains that there are fossils found everywhere all over the world, i.e. aspects of life long before us. In other words, there's a mountain of proof. You're basically trying to convince me that the same things which did that before, won't happen again because of your "entropy" scenario which apparently doesn't let things which occurred in the past to produce fossils to occur again in the present or near future for people in the far-flung future to see.
I don't think I said anywhere that fossils don't happen. I even made reference to fossils in that post that you're replying to.
So, yeah, while you're denying building strawmen, you're building them up in great number.
And actually what I listed is being debated, otherwise why would we be having this debate?
You're not trying to change the... subject are you?
Please let the people who live near Pompeii know that they are totally safe, in addition to anyone who lives in an area prone to mudslides, ice, etc.
What has this got to do with "safety" from Pompeii and mudslides? I've made no claims that no one is killed by these things. In fact, I'd quite expect that people will die from such things again.
There's nothing "strawman" about anything. You're implying that things which created fossil evidence of life in the past will not occur for things which exist now or in the near future.
It's very hard to make a fossil. First the remains actually have to last long enough to encounter the conditions to be fossilized, then the conditions, which have to be just right, have to happen. It's a real roll of the dice. There's a reason why most fossils are incomplete.
And yet new discoveries are uncovered all the time which turn "what is known" right on its head. Latest example is the engorged mosquito found in amber reported on Yahoo just yesterday <--- it occurred in a situation it should not have according to "consensus", a word these days which has become synonymous with "stifling dissent".
You must have missed the part where it stated that this kind of fossil was rare. As in, not common. Unusual. And so forth.
My statement just went right over your head, didn't it...
Something's clearly going over someone's head, but I don't think it's what or who you think.
See above statements regarding Pompeii, mud, ice, etc.
No, this is not a discussion about volcano or hiking safety.
Which is like suggesting that cross-breeding sheep with tigers is totally normal and can happen in a natural setting.
Are you forgetting what fictional universe is being discussed in relation to the Voth? Spock? Deanna Troi? Alexander Rozhenko? B'Ellanna Torres? Any of those names ring a bell and bring to mind what was special about them?
Odan and his symbiont would like a word with you...
Last I checked, that episode was still canon. The only episode that I know of that was struck from canon was "Threshold" from Voyager.
There's nothing ridiculous about it except when you assume people mean things will be out in the open to see. And with regards to "the pyramids", you're also forgetting to fact in the ones which have been buried by the sand. The insides are relatively untouched. The earth may go through some upheavals, but certain things will last when buried or encased by aspects of nature...hence fossil evidence found outside of rock.
What happens when the pyramids run out of outside to protect the inside? I don't expect much to be left after that point. Hell, to bring in another Egyptian treasure, the only reason we still have a Sphinx today is because of all the repairs that have been made to it over the centuries.
^ Someone might wanna call the Discovery Channel...
:rolleyes:
Dinosaur tracks, neat. Great, we can catalog them with the other tracks that have been discovered.
Perhaps you're trying to argue for fossilized computers? While certainly possible that the occasional circuit board might leave an imprint, there'll hardly be as many as you seem to be advocating for. And if you want to go there, I can bring up a few unusual fossil discoveries that tend to get shoveled into the crackpot zone.
Ok, I want to talk a bit further about the VOY episode Distant Origin, because it seems to me there are some plot holes.
The Voth Gegen finds remains of a Starfleet crew member. It appears to be a member of the Voyager. Now my questions are. How did he/she get there, what was he/she doing, how did he/she die. Why wasn't he/she being searched for and taken back to the ship.
All these question can't be answered of course, we only might guess. I do think it is hard to believe Voyager leaves someone behind as MIA. Is that a Starfleet doctrine? Join us and explore the universe. The universe is mighty big so you may get lost. When that happens .... God knows if you are ever heard from again.
An irony is in the story of Distant Origin. The Voth, an intelligent dinosaur races lives on earth. They live and leave without leaving any trace of their existence. Millions of millions years later a human spaceship comes into their new hemospere and leaves a trace behind which is found.
Good, thanks for these answers. This clears something up. Well, who am I to judge a story.
What happened with standard security precautions when exploring strange new worlds. Is there life, is it dangerous. Did nobody of the crew ever saw a movie from the Aliens sequel? Oh, wait that is another universe.
None of that is what's being debated. The fact (via hard evidence) remains that there are fossils found everywhere all over the world, i.e. aspects of life long before us. In other words, there's a mountain of proof.
When it comes to humanoid remains i.E. (species of genus Homo) your "Mountain" of proof fits in a suitcase ... and pretty much all of these findings are only single bones or fragments, meaning all we can basically do is TRY to reconstruct these life-forms the right way...
Hate to break it to you , but neither Archeology nor Paleontology is an exact science ... most of it is only theories (even if those theories sound plausible at the time, lots of them were already proven wrong)
Moreover there are probably millions of species who never left any fossils or we just haven't found them (yet), being the "Voth" one of these species, wouldn't be completely impossible ... and even if they would find single fossilized bones of some Voth, reconstruction of these, is a different matter (maybe some hypothetical ST Paleontologist found some [proto-]Voth fossils, and thought it's just another baby Hadrosaur i.E.) ... like others have said, of course fossilization would happen, but it doesn't necessarily happen to EVERY species who ever walked the Earth ... otherwise we wouldn't have "missing links" in our own lineage ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
Comments
Obviously Cryptic decided to go with Voth before they did that poll. We will encounter the Krenim eventually. Personally, I see the Voth as an enemy more than I see the Krenim. The only interaction Voyager had with the Krenim is just a 10 second chat telling Voyager to be careful. When we do encounter the Krenim, it is extremely doubtful that they will be enemies.
Of course it's a personal choice, but I don't understand why people trying to reconcile minutae in fiction with reality.
As for people mocking TOS for not being "plausible", you're missing the point - one of the key intentions of Star Trek was as allegory in Science Fiction trappings.
Cold War Images and The Enemies of Star Trek
http://www.stwww.com/papers/coldwar.html
Review of Star Trek 6
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/05/the-wall-comes-down-in-space-star-trek-vi-the-undiscovered-country
Nimoy's idea, as expressed to Meyer, was "You know, the Klingons have always been our stand-ins for the Russian. How about, The Wall comes down in space?"
It's a combat video game and they're fascists. Of course we'll fight them. Heck, we may fight them in multiple timelines/eras.
My character Tsin'xing
Cats already show the potential for being able to glide. How do you think they have a tendency to land on their feet even from steep heights? They have a slight bit of flesh between their hind and fore legs that can act as a parachute similar to a flying squirrel. Once they reach terminal velocity, they go limp and stretch their legs out and glide the rest of the distance down.
So, they don't actually have as far to go to reach the documentary's gliding cats as you seem to think.
Considering that mud structures actually don't last very long at all without maintenance or some form of artificial protection, I'm calling BS on your comment. Unless you can provide evidence of these mud huts that're 100k years? But to equate them with steel and concrete is laughable anyway. The compositions are completely different. The steel structures will be the first to go, since rust will eat that up like candy.
Heck, when we find steel items from earlier ages, they're in very terrible shape. Such artifacts have to be handled with more care than stone artifacts. Any iron mass will rust away and disintegrate due time.
Yeah, concrete will last longer than the steel, but even that will crumble. Someone brought up the Great Wall of China earlier, and while that'd likely last for thousands of years, the parts we popularly see in photographs are actually the parts in the best shape. There's many areas of the Wall that're run down to little more than dirt.
But apparently jetwtf is smarter than the experts interviewed who've been studying this stuff for years. No, according to him, computers are immune to the effects of entropy based on 100k year mud huts that he claims we've discovered.
My thoughts on janeways was good captain that couldve been the female version of kirk had it not been for the dimwits writting the scripts each week.
And that whole timeline was eliminated so as far as Voyager knows, it was just 10 seconds of interaction not an entire year. As far as Janeway knows, she never attacked a Krenim Warship, experienced a Year of Hell, or formed an alliance with a bunch of aliens bent on destroying a Krenim Warship. The only member of Voyager that might have a clue that ever happened is Kes since she is no longer corporeal and perhaps Seven since she has too much Borg technology in her head that we don't know what it does. After all, what happens in another timeline stays in another timeline. So I suggest you rewatch the end of the Year of Hell, Part II.
system Lord Baal is dead
Also by this logic, there should be ZERO evidence of anything that existed in the past.
Why is there evidence?
Why would similar circumstances not repeat in your hypothetical future scenario?
Where is the evidence that a hadrosaur could evolve to a point where it could create technology?
How could they surpass the Troodon which had a (theoretically) superior brain and much more ambulatory digits on its front limbs?
You guys keep reposting that Discovery Channel 8:00 special as if it's evidence from the future, yet ignore well-known studied aspects about the biology of dinosaurs which point to the Hadrosaurids being giant dino-sheep who did not have and could not have had advanced technology.
Way to go.
:rolleyes:
If you think that is funny, imagine lizards in space, GORN...or imagine apes in space... modern day Humans... imagine whales in space... I think it makes more sense than all others. They evolved, they left, and now they are returning. Also, I love that now I can watch the old tv show, Dinosaurs, and know that all that actually happened. In a strict fictional sense of course.
The concept was fine; the execution of that concept was a complete disaster.
If you go out of your way to establish limitations on the ship and crew, you should darned well be expected to explain how those limitations are overcome.
Here's the thing. Then entire concept of the show was that the ship was cut off from home, lost, with limited resources and a decades-long journey ahead of them.
They went out of their way to emphasize how well and truly screwed they were in the early days. They specifically mentioned how many torpedoes they had on board, and that they had "no way to replace them." They specifically mentioned the number of shuttlecraft they had on board (I think). The writers specifically arranged for half the crew to be Maquis, hostile to Starfleet.
And what did they do with all of this conceptual setup? Practically nothing. The limitations imposed by the concept were ignored at almost every opportunity, instead of used to generate tension in the stories. Tensions among the crew almost never occurred. Janeway and her crew would alternate between being desperate to find a way home and carrying out standard, TNG-style exploration missions. As mentioned by other posters, the show had no idea what it wanted to be. It had no voice. There were a handful of good stories, and a couple of good characters, but its execution of its premise was badly flawed.
Do you also remember how it all ended?
"On Kyana Prime, Annorax sits at a desk in his home, working on a large PADD. His wife comes to him and asks him to join her for breakfast and he tells her he will do so in a little while but he still has "a few more calculations". She lovingly chides him that he always says that and reaches her hand out to him, sweet-talking him into putting the PADD down and spending the day with her. He rises and takes her hand with a smile and they leave together.
The work he was doing on the PADD is seen... it is temporal incursion calculations."
It may as well be that Janeway postponed the inevitable or that it should have happened later in the first place and events that started the whole temporal incursion business was set in the motion in the past before that ship was ever built. Effect being cause for effect in this case. It is bit of paradox but still it could start many things in motion.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Pure speculation. Annorax could have just decided to shelf those calculations and never get them to a workable stage, but the point is that the only interaction with the Federation and the Krenim is a 10 second conversation. The Krenim might be a threat to the Federation in the future, but they are a minor footnote in Voyager's journey and it definitely won't be due to Voyager that they are enemies with the Federation.
This is true, pure speculation. If something, at least Annorax would be thankful to Voyager of their action if he ever found out what happened in that timeline. If memory serves, he was trying to fix his mistake but only Voyager managed to do that for him in the end by destroying that ship and restoring the right timeline plus restoring his love in the process.
They are very unlikely enemy but other of his people could see that differently if they ever find out which is also very unlikely.
Sadly Cryptoc could ddisregard all that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
No, they're upset because of how long it takes some things to break down as well as some of the toxic materials that are released when that happens.
Everything breaks down eventually. There is no true immortality in this universe. Even the stars don't live forever. We're nothing compared to the forces of nature. Just look at how massive storms, quakes and waves wipe away everything we build and strive for in the areas that they hit. We're nothing more than mere gnats compared to what this planet can throw at us.
Once we're gone as a species, nature will spend no time to remember us, as we're insignificant in our impact in this universe as were the dinosaurs. We might as well not exist because ultimately all of our hard work will be for naught with nary a trace of our existence.
That may seem a bit nihilist to some, but that's the way entropy works. It claims everything.
Ah, the classic strawman fallacy. As someone highlighted earlier, there would be curious strands of metal purities buried in the layers of rock that would not be able to occur naturally. However, you'd only be able to find it if you knew what you're looking for.
Fossilization and layering of Earth is the only evidence we possess of the distant past, and as highlighted earlier, fossilization is a very rare process--most remains don't last long enough to become fossils. Our ancient, stone monuments have only survived because it takes longer for stone to erode and because throughout history, humans have occasionally administered repair to these structures.
Who would be maintaining anything once we're gone? The cockroaches? The dogs? You think they're secretly hiding the intelligence to carry out maintenance?
That's a whole different discussion and one of the reasons in another thread that I suggested crossbreeding with velociraptors. I honestly have no idea why Voyager's writers chose hadrosaurs, but they did and it's unfortunately it's canon. My beef has just been about the ridiculous "but the ruins!" arguments when it overestimates the lasting power of our modern buildings and underestimates entropy. The pyramids will outlast our modern cities by millennia, and even then they'll erode in the desert winds.
Please let the people who live near Pompeii know that they are totally safe, in addition to anyone who lives in an area prone to mudslides, ice, etc.
There's nothing "strawman" about anything. You're implying that things which created fossil evidence of life in the past will not occur for things which exist now or in the near future.
And yet new discoveries are uncovered all the time which turn "what is known" right on its head. Latest example is the engorged mosquito found in amber reported on Yahoo just yesterday <--- it occurred in a situation it should not have according to "consensus", a word these days which has become synonymous with "stifling dissent".
http://www.livescience.com/40402-fossil-mosquito-blood-meal.html
My statement just went right over your head, didn't it...
See above statements regarding Pompeii, mud, ice, etc.
Which is like suggesting that cross-breeding sheep with tigers is totally normal and can happen in a natural setting.
Odan and his symbiont would like a word with you...
There's nothing ridiculous about it except when you assume people mean things will be out in the open to see. And with regards to "the pyramids", you're also forgetting to fact in the ones which have been buried by the sand. The insides are relatively untouched. The earth may go through some upheavals, but certain things will last when buried or encased by aspects of nature...hence fossil evidence found outside of rock.
http://www.livescience.com/39924-dinosaur-tracks-along-yukon-river.html
^ Someone might wanna call the Discovery Channel...
:rolleyes:
Equinox is what Voyager should have been
system Lord Baal is dead
i thought janeway was hot during voyager
http://youtu.be/8qxD2eoh-W4?t=36s
/thread
BTW Romulan Loafers...make it so
Actually, fossil bones were put on Earth by a Creator with nothing better to do than upset archeologists and give them silly ideas.
Precisely, Jon.
I don't think I said anywhere that fossils don't happen. I even made reference to fossils in that post that you're replying to.
So, yeah, while you're denying building strawmen, you're building them up in great number.
And actually what I listed is being debated, otherwise why would we be having this debate?
You're not trying to change the... subject are you?
What has this got to do with "safety" from Pompeii and mudslides? I've made no claims that no one is killed by these things. In fact, I'd quite expect that people will die from such things again.
It's very hard to make a fossil. First the remains actually have to last long enough to encounter the conditions to be fossilized, then the conditions, which have to be just right, have to happen. It's a real roll of the dice. There's a reason why most fossils are incomplete.
You must have missed the part where it stated that this kind of fossil was rare. As in, not common. Unusual. And so forth.
Something's clearly going over someone's head, but I don't think it's what or who you think.
No, this is not a discussion about volcano or hiking safety.
Are you forgetting what fictional universe is being discussed in relation to the Voth? Spock? Deanna Troi? Alexander Rozhenko? B'Ellanna Torres? Any of those names ring a bell and bring to mind what was special about them?
Last I checked, that episode was still canon. The only episode that I know of that was struck from canon was "Threshold" from Voyager.
What happens when the pyramids run out of outside to protect the inside? I don't expect much to be left after that point. Hell, to bring in another Egyptian treasure, the only reason we still have a Sphinx today is because of all the repairs that have been made to it over the centuries.
Dinosaur tracks, neat. Great, we can catalog them with the other tracks that have been discovered.
Perhaps you're trying to argue for fossilized computers? While certainly possible that the occasional circuit board might leave an imprint, there'll hardly be as many as you seem to be advocating for. And if you want to go there, I can bring up a few unusual fossil discoveries that tend to get shoveled into the crackpot zone.
i would have watched that!!!!!
system Lord Baal is dead
The Voth Gegen finds remains of a Starfleet crew member. It appears to be a member of the Voyager. Now my questions are. How did he/she get there, what was he/she doing, how did he/she die. Why wasn't he/she being searched for and taken back to the ship.
All these question can't be answered of course, we only might guess. I do think it is hard to believe Voyager leaves someone behind as MIA. Is that a Starfleet doctrine? Join us and explore the universe. The universe is mighty big so you may get lost. When that happens .... God knows if you are ever heard from again.
An irony is in the story of Distant Origin. The Voth, an intelligent dinosaur races lives on earth. They live and leave without leaving any trace of their existence. Millions of millions years later a human spaceship comes into their new hemospere and leaves a trace behind which is found.
What happened with standard security precautions when exploring strange new worlds. Is there life, is it dangerous. Did nobody of the crew ever saw a movie from the Aliens sequel? Oh, wait that is another universe.
When it comes to humanoid remains i.E. (species of genus Homo) your "Mountain" of proof fits in a suitcase ... and pretty much all of these findings are only single bones or fragments, meaning all we can basically do is TRY to reconstruct these life-forms the right way...
Hate to break it to you , but neither Archeology nor Paleontology is an exact science ... most of it is only theories (even if those theories sound plausible at the time, lots of them were already proven wrong)
Moreover there are probably millions of species who never left any fossils or we just haven't found them (yet), being the "Voth" one of these species, wouldn't be completely impossible ... and even if they would find single fossilized bones of some Voth, reconstruction of these, is a different matter (maybe some hypothetical ST Paleontologist found some [proto-]Voth fossils, and thought it's just another baby Hadrosaur i.E.) ... like others have said, of course fossilization would happen, but it doesn't necessarily happen to EVERY species who ever walked the Earth ... otherwise we wouldn't have "missing links" in our own lineage ...
Then there's the matter that Starfleet buries their dead at space.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQUePN5y40