After playing my new avenger engineer in pvp matches (Victoria if youve ever fought her yet), and topping damage charts for both sides, as well as almost always being the last to die if at all
I see the problem this thread was inspired by.
I am not even using marion and purple techs yet, just blues. (not to mention the only piece of "good" gear on it is the plasmonic leech console, the rest is all TRIBBLE i picked up off the exchange for 40-400k ec each)
FAW is pretty ridiculous, especially vs escorts and bops.
That damage is not just washed away, I watch everyone around me slowly melt away to death. Only dedicated healers can last for long. Roms and KDF alike end up having to cloak and dagger just to survive, and rarely can they instapop this toon due to it being an engy.
I dont know man, this new character is probably the easiest one to play, pretty much a nobrainer. it requires next to no skill to fly, just timing on self heals if i get spiked, no spacebar mash even required and its ridiculous.
Thats just my two cents on the deal. Im legit scared to get rep/fleet gear and good doffs on it.
Yes, this exactly. Don't get me wrong, I love that beams are back into the fold.. I hate how ridiculously one-step hero it all is. Like you said, you slapped something rudimentary together and slammed your targets.
Hell, if you watched the season 8 walkthrough on the live stream, you've got Branflakes with mk XII gear and an aux2bat build. Half the time he didn't even use aux2bat. About 75% of the time he was flying around killing stuff, he was looking away from his screen entirely. (I encourage anyone to take a look)
I love that beams are usable but the utter length those beams reach into mechanics is insidiously insane.
I had a giggle when I saw bran flakes play like that. No offense intended ofcourse.
Its funny how some cruiser 'pro's' constantly try to protect their little cruiser from being nerfed, and cried so hard when double tap was still possible.
Thats not so hard to achieve really, dem and all the bleed through, you only need a 30+ minute endless match to obtain such numbers. No disrespect but its actually a sign on now ineffficient the killers in that match where. One vaper or good alpha striker would have destroyed all those numbers 4x fold because the match wouldve ended much sooner.
Stil funny to see tho, reminds me of the old 3 hour matches with 20 to 30m healing done.
I had a giggle when I saw bran flakes play like that. No offense intended ofcourse.
Its funny how some cruiser 'pro's' constantly try to protect their little cruiser from being nerfed, and cried so hard when double tap was still possible.
Welcome to the world of easy play
Thats not so hard to achieve really, dem and all the bleed through, you only need a 30+ minute endless match to obtain such numbers. No disrespect but its actually a sign on now ineffficient the killers in that match where. One vaper or good alpha striker would have destroyed all those numbers 4x fold because the match wouldve ended much sooner.
Stil funny to see tho, reminds me of the old 3 hour matches with 20 to 30m healing done.
Lol.. Right? You don't need double tap at all. What I'd really like to see is virus dancer or DDIS exploring a mathematical solution (if possible). I think enough time has transpired to explicitly outline the need thereof
I am relatively new to the PVP scene but I have analyzed some of the posts in this thread.
So far I can conclude the following though:
Main Issue:
Overcapping Beams and Cutter proc makes your weapon power close to 125 hardly dropping at all.
Secondary issue:
Nukara console. If I can remember correctly before LoR the devs said they wanted to buff Beam Overload accuracy, instead the decided to release a console that simply buffs beams, including FaW.
Third issue:
Because of primary issue one, Tetryon glider and DEM get unintentionally buffed because both use the exact same background mechanic and rely solely on weapon power level for their full effect.
Fourth issue:
I read some ppl discovered for each shot of FaW the DEM damage is double applied, if this is true there can be no other way other then that Tet glider is also identically effected by it. No way to know for certain though.
Does this sum up the main issues, other then the simple additional power creep like crit boffs etc?
For whats it worth for aux2bat, other then the additional weapon overcapping i do not see how it would buff beeam faw builds more then lets say other cannon builds? I read there was some hardcap up to 175 wep power.
Personally I was thinking altering the global of A2B and increasing the duration of it tanking your aux might be a good avenue to explore. Though to be honest I think it's more the overcapping and drain resistance of the omega weapon amp coupled with some crazy things going on with DEM, FAW and proc rates.
Though I will say this, I have a PvE tank and it does moderate damage. Sure it's not topping the charts, it's not soloing content or anything but it can hold probes on KASE, can even start on the transformer and kill the cube using the whole plasma THY hitting at 0 range trick. Sure it takes 2-3 times longer than my scimitar possibly longer but it's no longer completely useless. Without going A2B or going more offense I doubt I will get more out of it and I'm happy with that, it's not a damage dealer but it does enough and can hold its own.
So yeah it's a bit tricky to be honest because a nerf to the top end will usually hit the bottom end pretty hard unless they introduce caps at the top end. Sure my tank is not needed as damage is king but you know what? I'm bored to death of this dps is king TRIBBLE. I just want to play this game now with different classes and have some fun knowing that while I'm not hitting the stupid level of dps, I'm useful and doing enough damage to make up for a bad player or two, even if I don't play with bad players anymore.
Lol.. Right? You don't need double tap at all. What I'd really like to see is virus dancer or DDIS exploring a mathematical solution (if possible). I think enough time has transpired to explicitly outline the need thereof
step 1: make the dreadnought warbird the first ship to be bared from using beam arrays. im not kidding
step 1: make the dreadnought warbird the first ship to be bared from using beam arrays. im not kidding
heh i was there with you in that game last night with the 2 scims that were just demolishing anything they saw. i had a whole 50k damage for that entire fight because everything was gone before i could even spin around to it
i fought against them earlier that night and was devastated just as bad as you were =/
it isnt even fun. there is literally zero chance. a group member said lets pull back and regroup, i replied why, there is literally zero chance of beating them with this makeup.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
step 1: make the dreadnought warbird the first ship to be bared from using beam arrays. im not kidding
Honestly that's not a bad idea at all. That is if they don't properly visit beams and their relative function. Only thing I see standing in the way is that they'd have to auto dump the objects from the scimitar shell into a safe player holding. For those without room I can almost spell the distinct possibility of very bad bugs popping out of a corrective change like that.
I forget what her name was but she was head of this or that and was on a podcast talking about the multitudes of objects the database deals with. They're all like folders within folders. Kind of like an LPC based language which houses objects.
I wanted to build a scimi beam boss but I stopped myself. Not into the whole cheapened experience. Regardless of the numerous issues I can spy in the game at first glance, I do want to continue playing and that cheap experience would justify departure.
I do however want to see if I can break the new cruiser ship. That does actually sound like fun to me :P
That being said, an option is to just take out Overcapping (no particular reason for it as it is), reduce the drain from beams as well as its effective damage versus hull.
Another is removing the ability for DEM to be boosted to absurd levels by beams, and in particular FAW.
You could also just remake the Technicians into Aux Drain resistance on use of an Aux2X (making the other 2 drain aux in the same way as Aux2Bat does. Seems strange the other two don't) ability.
3rd option is probably preferable (with option 2 as a supplement), as it will allow Beam builds to still be viable DPS wise via overcapping, but will reduce effectiveness down to a level that doesn't produce numbers that shouldn't be possible by one player (while also cutting down a lot of the near zombie-like tanking ability of a lot of these builds), but doesn't make the idea of doing damage in a engineering focused ship a wasted effort.
Aux2Bat as it is I think was created in the way that it was because it allowed Cruisers do do DPS at sacrifice of their ability to tank. But because of general power creep (which Aux2Bat's creation did not take into account) its gone beyond that simple idea.
All in all, if power creep is the way forward, Cryptic needs to rebalance old content as they go along. Otherwise you end up with a set of mechanics that build on top of each other until someone ends up doing 13 million damage in one match.
What the guy above said not to mention you would be using THE worst p2w item out there which is more frowned upon than the BFAW spammers themselves
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
Thats more a problem with your team if you can't kill someone getting hit with all of that.
And regardless, it works with the right timing. Does it work for every kill? No, but few things do or even should.
depends on how said bfawboat is specced. you dont have to be a tactical captain to run a nasty bfaw spammer. my engy and one of my friends scis are also extremely nasty in a bfaw
apa might hit a little harder, but MW or SNB/SS can be just as devastating. And in the case of an engy, good luck spiking it down "easily" even with a good team.
At best youre going to blow all of your good stuff for ONE kill, meanwhile leaving yourself vulnerable to the rest of my team.
Which is the point. You either ignore me and let me melt you slow, or you try to blow away the strongest tank on the field (besides any dedicated healers around) at the expense of leaving squishy spikers up to annihilate you.
Your choice.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
depends on how said bfawboat is specced. you dont have to be a tactical captain to run a nasty bfaw spammer. my engy and one of my friends scis are also extremely nasty in a bfaw
apa might hit a little harder, but MW or SNB/SS can be just as devastating. And in the case of an engy, good luck spiking it down "easily" even with a good team.
At best youre going to blow all of your good stuff for ONE kill, meanwhile leaving yourself vulnerable to the rest of my team.
Which is the point. You either ignore me and let me melt you slow, or you try to blow away the strongest tank on the field (besides any dedicated healers around) at the expense of leaving squishy spikers up to annihilate you.
Your choice.
That is why I never said there wasn't a problem with these builds. I was merely illustrating a method with which to break them. And besides, that only applies to one or two of them in an instance. A whole team of them (or even more than just 2) is whole other monster that really illustrates the problems of the build. Unless you can manage to scramble at least 2-3 of them at once and do it when they can't possibly break the scramble (and won't notice it immediately for whatever reason) then you could end up making them kill themselves, but thats almost a matter of luck.
But against one or even 2? My method works. And even when you take into account other teammates, its still just a matter of 2 ships (or one if you're really good) that will be able to take down the A2B boat(s). If your own team isn't able to keep off most of the pressure from the opponents team then again, thats a problem with your team.
Besides, if you see a bunch of squishy spikers and 1-2 A2B builds on a team, then just pop the squish over and over. Do it right and they'll die quicker than 1 or 2 A2B boats can kill any one on your team.
That is why I never said there wasn't a problem with these builds. I was merely illustrating a method with which to break them. And besides, that only applies to one or two of them in an instance. A whole team of them (or even more than just 2) is whole other monster that really illustrates the problems of the build. Unless you can manage to scramble at least 2-3 of them at once and do it when they can't possibly break the scramble (and won't notice it immediately for whatever reason) then you could end up making them kill themselves, but thats almost a matter of luck.
But against one or even 2? My method works. And even when you take into account other teammates, its still just a matter of 2 ships (or one if you're really good) that will be able to take down the A2B boat(s). If your own team isn't able to keep off most of the pressure from the opponents team then again, thats a problem with your team.
Honestly the biggest weakness my avenger has are gravity wells and transphasics. I have to sacrifice something to maintain the demfaw build, so I am lacking in instant hull heals and snarebreaks (single copy of APO and HE2)
Subnukes rarely are a problem, but a good gravity trap is the real killer.
Fortunately (or unfortunately, for me anyway), people have already figured out how to kill a fedball of spam death by using gravs and isos and tractors. Black ball of death is nasty too (subspace integration circuit)
scramble/subnuke though are really not that much of an issue to at least my avenger. unless im in a grav well and they nuke off my apo, then it can be effective.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Honestly I think the entire issue centers on the speed of things. FAW can be cycled so continuously that it's kind of like jumping through a temporal portal and finding a pacifier in my mouth, methodically chewing as I relive my rave scene days.
I don't think the issue is bfaw per se.. It's the speed of all that damage that hollows into the tac captain's expertise.
So if we look at it honestly, the checklist I'd consider without any foreseeable changes to doffs is thus:
1. Instill a firing cycle of 1 beam per 6 seconds (more or less depending on type of damage and type of beam, DBB being that of 4 seconds for instance for the median modes thereof).
2. Make DEM only applicable to BO.
3. Allow BFAW to halve whatever firing cycle the beams run off of.
So let's just say AP is an 8 second shooter for a beam array. A cruiser wants to run AP, so that player is going to have most likely a typical load out involving Aux 2 Bat, DEM, and for this instance BO and BFAW, one copy each.
Let's just say that AP beam array is 330 on the tool tip because to augment for the slower firing, they'd need a closer relation to cannon damage levels. So the player opts into BFAW. That would make the weapons fall from 8 seconds to 4 per shot. No need to run DEM because BFAW is going to boost damage depending on how many targets (and maybe this would need to be visited too).
If you're following me thus far you can see the direction I'm heading in here. Slower and more powerful is still enjoyable. It doesn't have to be fast and constant with no shelf to how powerful your shots are. Give cruisers not only a tanky feel but a slow but powerful arm to work with too.
Honestly the biggest weakness my avenger has are gravity wells and transphasics. I have to sacrifice something to maintain the demfaw build, so I am lacking in instant hull heals and snarebreaks (single copy of APO and HE2)
Subnukes rarely are a problem, but a good gravity trap is the real killer.
Fortunately (or unfortunately, for me anyway), people have already figured out how to kill a fedball of spam death by using gravs and isos and tractors. Black ball of death is nasty too (subspace integration circuit)
Well I did say pick your choice of wacky space magic now didn't I? lol.
And I can back up those kinds of weaknesses in a lot of BFAW boats, even the best ones (not everyone builds them to cover every single base possible, if they even build them exactly right in the first place). Me and a fleet mate run a Khyzon/Charal (respectively) duo and we've been able to break BFAW boats pretty easily, even if we died once or twice. (mostly due to messing up our heals or running up against someone who relies on GDF for kills and straight tanking in the meantime, which is where these builds really get stupid)
Multiple devastating spikes (2pc Andorian and BO3. Seems odd but it works very well with weapon batts) combined with snare mines (CTB + Web Mines) and a moderate level of surviability means we can break them, even in a team setting.
Well I did say pick your choice of wacky space magic now didn't I? lol.
And I can back up those kinds of weaknesses in a lot of BFAW boats, even the best ones (not everyone builds them to cover every single base possible, if they even build them exactly right in the first place). Me and a fleet mate run a Khyzon/Charal (respectively) duo and we've been able to break BFAW boats pretty easily, even if we died once or twice. (mostly due to messing up our heals or running up against someone who relies on GDF for kills and straight tanking in the meantime, which is where these builds really get stupid)
Multiple devastating spikes (2pc Andorian and BO3. Seems odd but it works very well with weapon batts) combined with snare mines (CTB + Web Mines) and a moderate level of surviability means we can break them, even in a team setting.
Yeah. My vesta I had built was FAWkiller supreme. Incidentally it's the same tactic the voth dreadnaught ship uses to hull-choke players to death. I went half graviton/half particle generator. Set it up with grav well III, Tykens II and opted into the borg tractor(glorious choice). The strategy I used was CSV at players as much as could be had, wait for them to return fire, wait for conservation of energy and that was the cheese on the trap.
Once they fired back and I scored 1-2 stacks of conservation of energy and pop quantum singularity/grav well III, I simply waited patiently for as many opposition buffs as I could tolerate when attempting escape, popped my sub nuke, sensor scan and applied the tractor as they promptly slid back into that zero-point origin within my grav well. Even if they were able to escape, the secondary aftershocks were more than enough to either disorient them or lower all that defense fluff down to something even a simple aux cannon could lick at.
Just like ice cream cones on a hot summer day. Unfortunately even though my targets were bountiful for the obvious FAWers, it's a very pointed build and only so enjoyable.
Works well in PVE as well, especially with the changes but I didn't end up using that borg tractor too terribly much unless the target was a battleship or higher in class. Even though it's more than possible to build varying ship load outs to handle FAW I find the effort way too pointed in nature.
FAW boats are easy to create and even easier to find. I think that's why the issue is so popular now more than ever.
Well I did say pick your choice of wacky space magic now didn't I? lol.
And I can back up those kinds of weaknesses in a lot of BFAW boats, even the best ones (not everyone builds them to cover every single base possible, if they even build them exactly right in the first place). Me and a fleet mate run a Khyzon/Charal (respectively) duo and we've been able to break BFAW boats pretty easily, even if we died once or twice. (mostly due to messing up our heals or running up against someone who relies on GDF for kills and straight tanking in the meantime, which is where these builds really get stupid)
Multiple devastating spikes (2pc Andorian and BO3. Seems odd but it works very well with weapon batts) combined with snare mines (CTB + Web Mines) and a moderate level of surviability means we can break them, even in a team setting.
Even so, there's still the arguement of Maximum Effort barely edging Minimum Effort.
Obviously, there's too many factors involved for Cryptic to run a balance pass but I'd suggest giving BFAW a blanket 30% reduction in Accuracy while active, which should still be enough to clear spam. Most PvP'rs push at around 25%-35% bonus to Accuracy with passives, consoles and weapon modifiers so basically, BFAW would put them on a level playing field, still doing increased damage but less shield bleedthrough and stripping against players. Thus making BO preferable to cruisers against single targets and Cannons preferable to Escorts.
Even so, there's still the arguement of Maximum Effort barely edging Minimum Effort.
I like that train of thought. It ties into a bunch of things I ramble about from time to time, talking about somebody getting a return on their investment.
Have you noticed the following cycle...or am I a complete loon?
Player(s) maximize for X, practice X, get good at X. They put a lot of effort into X.
Cryptic releases A for X (sometimes A&B...even A+B&C for X).
Everybody can do X.
Some are better at X (they've been doing X longer, still putting more effort in).
Cryptic nerfs X.
To do X, you need A (sometimes A&B...even A+B&C), at a reasonable level.
Player(s) maximize for Y....
etc, etc, etc.
edit: In the end, you end up with folks being able to buy their way into a form of munchkin (powergaming) gaming...which shouldn't be surprising, because that's the general impression many gamers give - they want to launch tactical nukes from their spacebar to kill those pesky rats at level 1 in various games.
I like that train of thought. It ties into a bunch of things I ramble about from time to time, talking about somebody getting a return on their investment.
Have you noticed the following cycle...or am I a complete loon?
Player(s) maximize for X, practice X, get good at X. They put a lot of effort into X.
Cryptic releases A for X (sometimes A&B...even A+B&C for X).
Everybody can do X.
Some are better at X (they've been doing X longer, still putting more effort in).
Cryptic nerfs X.
To do X, you need A (sometimes A&B...even A+B&C), at a reasonable level.
Player(s) maximize for Y....
etc, etc, etc.
edit: In the end, you end up with folks being able to buy their way into a form of munchkin (powergaming) gaming...which shouldn't be surprising, because that's the general impression many gamers give - they want to launch tactical nukes from their spacebar to kill those pesky rats at level 1 in various games.
That's how STO runs really, mechanics change, players adapt and find other ways
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
That's how STO runs really, mechanics change, players adapt and find other ways
The adaptation thing...wasn't suggested with that, though I could see how it was.
It could be simultaneous.
It's just a case of it appearing that Cryptic pays attention to what some folks can do and they attempt to make it easy for everybody to do at a price...
The adaptation thing...wasn't suggested with that, though I could see how it was.
It could be simultaneous.
It's just a case of it appearing that Cryptic pays attention to what some folks can do and they attempt to make it easy for everybody to do at a price...
Pay 2 win? or rather pay not to test
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Cryptic introduces something. Makes it better. Makes it too good. Nerfs it, but not what they added.
In order to get where you were before, you need that something they introduced...at a cost.
So it's basically just P2P for what you were doing F2P before they introduced that something...
Marion and using Weapons batt from before?, it probably better to use Battery since you can pop it every 1 min whereas Dem is longer and it takes up a BO slot
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Ok all. I think there is no problem with FAW and all stuf because a very Skilled (this means maxed reputation, highest end gear, nothing more in this mmo) player who is mr Branflakes, using it too.
Ok all. I think there is no problem with FAW and all stuf because a very Skilled (this means maxed reputation, highest end gear, nothing more in this mmo) player who is mr Branflakes, using it too.
Comments
Yes, this exactly. Don't get me wrong, I love that beams are back into the fold.. I hate how ridiculously one-step hero it all is. Like you said, you slapped something rudimentary together and slammed your targets.
Hell, if you watched the season 8 walkthrough on the live stream, you've got Branflakes with mk XII gear and an aux2bat build. Half the time he didn't even use aux2bat. About 75% of the time he was flying around killing stuff, he was looking away from his screen entirely. (I encourage anyone to take a look)
I love that beams are usable but the utter length those beams reach into mechanics is insidiously insane.
Its funny how some cruiser 'pro's' constantly try to protect their little cruiser from being nerfed, and cried so hard when double tap was still possible.
Welcome to the world of easy play
Thats not so hard to achieve really, dem and all the bleed through, you only need a 30+ minute endless match to obtain such numbers. No disrespect but its actually a sign on now ineffficient the killers in that match where. One vaper or good alpha striker would have destroyed all those numbers 4x fold because the match wouldve ended much sooner.
Stil funny to see tho, reminds me of the old 3 hour matches with 20 to 30m healing done.
Lol.. Right? You don't need double tap at all. What I'd really like to see is virus dancer or DDIS exploring a mathematical solution (if possible). I think enough time has transpired to explicitly outline the need thereof
I am relatively new to the PVP scene but I have analyzed some of the posts in this thread.
So far I can conclude the following though:
Main Issue:
Overcapping Beams and Cutter proc makes your weapon power close to 125 hardly dropping at all.
Secondary issue:
Nukara console. If I can remember correctly before LoR the devs said they wanted to buff Beam Overload accuracy, instead the decided to release a console that simply buffs beams, including FaW.
Third issue:
Because of primary issue one, Tetryon glider and DEM get unintentionally buffed because both use the exact same background mechanic and rely solely on weapon power level for their full effect.
Fourth issue:
I read some ppl discovered for each shot of FaW the DEM damage is double applied, if this is true there can be no other way other then that Tet glider is also identically effected by it. No way to know for certain though.
Does this sum up the main issues, other then the simple additional power creep like crit boffs etc?
For whats it worth for aux2bat, other then the additional weapon overcapping i do not see how it would buff beeam faw builds more then lets say other cannon builds? I read there was some hardcap up to 175 wep power.
Though I will say this, I have a PvE tank and it does moderate damage. Sure it's not topping the charts, it's not soloing content or anything but it can hold probes on KASE, can even start on the transformer and kill the cube using the whole plasma THY hitting at 0 range trick. Sure it takes 2-3 times longer than my scimitar possibly longer but it's no longer completely useless. Without going A2B or going more offense I doubt I will get more out of it and I'm happy with that, it's not a damage dealer but it does enough and can hold its own.
So yeah it's a bit tricky to be honest because a nerf to the top end will usually hit the bottom end pretty hard unless they introduce caps at the top end. Sure my tank is not needed as damage is king but you know what? I'm bored to death of this dps is king TRIBBLE. I just want to play this game now with different classes and have some fun knowing that while I'm not hitting the stupid level of dps, I'm useful and doing enough damage to make up for a bad player or two, even if I don't play with bad players anymore.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
step 1: make the dreadnought warbird the first ship to be bared from using beam arrays. im not kidding
heh i was there with you in that game last night with the 2 scims that were just demolishing anything they saw. i had a whole 50k damage for that entire fight because everything was gone before i could even spin around to it
i fought against them earlier that night and was devastated just as bad as you were =/
it isnt even fun. there is literally zero chance. a group member said lets pull back and regroup, i replied why, there is literally zero chance of beating them with this makeup.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Honestly that's not a bad idea at all. That is if they don't properly visit beams and their relative function. Only thing I see standing in the way is that they'd have to auto dump the objects from the scimitar shell into a safe player holding. For those without room I can almost spell the distinct possibility of very bad bugs popping out of a corrective change like that.
I forget what her name was but she was head of this or that and was on a podcast talking about the multitudes of objects the database deals with. They're all like folders within folders. Kind of like an LPC based language which houses objects.
I wanted to build a scimi beam boss but I stopped myself. Not into the whole cheapened experience. Regardless of the numerous issues I can spy in the game at first glance, I do want to continue playing and that cheap experience would justify departure.
I do however want to see if I can break the new cruiser ship. That does actually sound like fun to me :P
+
Temporal Inversion Field
+
SubNuc
+/-
Your choice of wacky space magic.
=
Dead BFAW boats.
Also a good way to knock out an annoying JHAS'.
That being said, an option is to just take out Overcapping (no particular reason for it as it is), reduce the drain from beams as well as its effective damage versus hull.
Another is removing the ability for DEM to be boosted to absurd levels by beams, and in particular FAW.
You could also just remake the Technicians into Aux Drain resistance on use of an Aux2X (making the other 2 drain aux in the same way as Aux2Bat does. Seems strange the other two don't) ability.
3rd option is probably preferable (with option 2 as a supplement), as it will allow Beam builds to still be viable DPS wise via overcapping, but will reduce effectiveness down to a level that doesn't produce numbers that shouldn't be possible by one player (while also cutting down a lot of the near zombie-like tanking ability of a lot of these builds), but doesn't make the idea of doing damage in a engineering focused ship a wasted effort.
Aux2Bat as it is I think was created in the way that it was because it allowed Cruisers do do DPS at sacrifice of their ability to tank. But because of general power creep (which Aux2Bat's creation did not take into account) its gone beyond that simple idea.
All in all, if power creep is the way forward, Cryptic needs to rebalance old content as they go along. Otherwise you end up with a set of mechanics that build on top of each other until someone ends up doing 13 million damage in one match.
sciteam, tank it out, fire up DEMFAW again in 30 seconds, well before all that stuff you just said comes back.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
What the guy above said not to mention you would be using THE worst p2w item out there which is more frowned upon than the BFAW spammers themselves
Thats more a problem with your team if you can't kill someone getting hit with all of that.
And regardless, it works with the right timing. Does it work for every kill? No, but few things do or even should.
depends on how said bfawboat is specced. you dont have to be a tactical captain to run a nasty bfaw spammer. my engy and one of my friends scis are also extremely nasty in a bfaw
apa might hit a little harder, but MW or SNB/SS can be just as devastating. And in the case of an engy, good luck spiking it down "easily" even with a good team.
At best youre going to blow all of your good stuff for ONE kill, meanwhile leaving yourself vulnerable to the rest of my team.
Which is the point. You either ignore me and let me melt you slow, or you try to blow away the strongest tank on the field (besides any dedicated healers around) at the expense of leaving squishy spikers up to annihilate you.
Your choice.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
That is why I never said there wasn't a problem with these builds. I was merely illustrating a method with which to break them. And besides, that only applies to one or two of them in an instance. A whole team of them (or even more than just 2) is whole other monster that really illustrates the problems of the build. Unless you can manage to scramble at least 2-3 of them at once and do it when they can't possibly break the scramble (and won't notice it immediately for whatever reason) then you could end up making them kill themselves, but thats almost a matter of luck.
But against one or even 2? My method works. And even when you take into account other teammates, its still just a matter of 2 ships (or one if you're really good) that will be able to take down the A2B boat(s). If your own team isn't able to keep off most of the pressure from the opponents team then again, thats a problem with your team.
Besides, if you see a bunch of squishy spikers and 1-2 A2B builds on a team, then just pop the squish over and over. Do it right and they'll die quicker than 1 or 2 A2B boats can kill any one on your team.
Honestly the biggest weakness my avenger has are gravity wells and transphasics. I have to sacrifice something to maintain the demfaw build, so I am lacking in instant hull heals and snarebreaks (single copy of APO and HE2)
Subnukes rarely are a problem, but a good gravity trap is the real killer.
Fortunately (or unfortunately, for me anyway), people have already figured out how to kill a fedball of spam death by using gravs and isos and tractors. Black ball of death is nasty too (subspace integration circuit)
scramble/subnuke though are really not that much of an issue to at least my avenger. unless im in a grav well and they nuke off my apo, then it can be effective.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I don't think the issue is bfaw per se.. It's the speed of all that damage that hollows into the tac captain's expertise.
So if we look at it honestly, the checklist I'd consider without any foreseeable changes to doffs is thus:
1. Instill a firing cycle of 1 beam per 6 seconds (more or less depending on type of damage and type of beam, DBB being that of 4 seconds for instance for the median modes thereof).
2. Make DEM only applicable to BO.
3. Allow BFAW to halve whatever firing cycle the beams run off of.
So let's just say AP is an 8 second shooter for a beam array. A cruiser wants to run AP, so that player is going to have most likely a typical load out involving Aux 2 Bat, DEM, and for this instance BO and BFAW, one copy each.
Let's just say that AP beam array is 330 on the tool tip because to augment for the slower firing, they'd need a closer relation to cannon damage levels. So the player opts into BFAW. That would make the weapons fall from 8 seconds to 4 per shot. No need to run DEM because BFAW is going to boost damage depending on how many targets (and maybe this would need to be visited too).
If you're following me thus far you can see the direction I'm heading in here. Slower and more powerful is still enjoyable. It doesn't have to be fast and constant with no shelf to how powerful your shots are. Give cruisers not only a tanky feel but a slow but powerful arm to work with too.
Well I did say pick your choice of wacky space magic now didn't I? lol.
And I can back up those kinds of weaknesses in a lot of BFAW boats, even the best ones (not everyone builds them to cover every single base possible, if they even build them exactly right in the first place). Me and a fleet mate run a Khyzon/Charal (respectively) duo and we've been able to break BFAW boats pretty easily, even if we died once or twice. (mostly due to messing up our heals or running up against someone who relies on GDF for kills and straight tanking in the meantime, which is where these builds really get stupid)
Multiple devastating spikes (2pc Andorian and BO3. Seems odd but it works very well with weapon batts) combined with snare mines (CTB + Web Mines) and a moderate level of surviability means we can break them, even in a team setting.
Yeah. My vesta I had built was FAWkiller supreme. Incidentally it's the same tactic the voth dreadnaught ship uses to hull-choke players to death. I went half graviton/half particle generator. Set it up with grav well III, Tykens II and opted into the borg tractor(glorious choice). The strategy I used was CSV at players as much as could be had, wait for them to return fire, wait for conservation of energy and that was the cheese on the trap.
Once they fired back and I scored 1-2 stacks of conservation of energy and pop quantum singularity/grav well III, I simply waited patiently for as many opposition buffs as I could tolerate when attempting escape, popped my sub nuke, sensor scan and applied the tractor as they promptly slid back into that zero-point origin within my grav well. Even if they were able to escape, the secondary aftershocks were more than enough to either disorient them or lower all that defense fluff down to something even a simple aux cannon could lick at.
Just like ice cream cones on a hot summer day. Unfortunately even though my targets were bountiful for the obvious FAWers, it's a very pointed build and only so enjoyable.
Works well in PVE as well, especially with the changes but I didn't end up using that borg tractor too terribly much unless the target was a battleship or higher in class. Even though it's more than possible to build varying ship load outs to handle FAW I find the effort way too pointed in nature.
FAW boats are easy to create and even easier to find. I think that's why the issue is so popular now more than ever.
Even so, there's still the arguement of Maximum Effort barely edging Minimum Effort.
Obviously, there's too many factors involved for Cryptic to run a balance pass but I'd suggest giving BFAW a blanket 30% reduction in Accuracy while active, which should still be enough to clear spam. Most PvP'rs push at around 25%-35% bonus to Accuracy with passives, consoles and weapon modifiers so basically, BFAW would put them on a level playing field, still doing increased damage but less shield bleedthrough and stripping against players. Thus making BO preferable to cruisers against single targets and Cannons preferable to Escorts.
I like that train of thought. It ties into a bunch of things I ramble about from time to time, talking about somebody getting a return on their investment.
Have you noticed the following cycle...or am I a complete loon?
Player(s) maximize for X, practice X, get good at X. They put a lot of effort into X.
Cryptic releases A for X (sometimes A&B...even A+B&C for X).
Everybody can do X.
Some are better at X (they've been doing X longer, still putting more effort in).
Cryptic nerfs X.
To do X, you need A (sometimes A&B...even A+B&C), at a reasonable level.
Player(s) maximize for Y....
etc, etc, etc.
edit: In the end, you end up with folks being able to buy their way into a form of munchkin (powergaming) gaming...which shouldn't be surprising, because that's the general impression many gamers give - they want to launch tactical nukes from their spacebar to kill those pesky rats at level 1 in various games.
That's how STO runs really, mechanics change, players adapt and find other ways
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
The adaptation thing...wasn't suggested with that, though I could see how it was.
It could be simultaneous.
It's just a case of it appearing that Cryptic pays attention to what some folks can do and they attempt to make it easy for everybody to do at a price...
Pay 2 win? or rather pay not to test
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Nah, it's not even P2W...it's more like P2P.
You're doing something...for free.
Cryptic introduces something. Makes it better. Makes it too good. Nerfs it, but not what they added.
In order to get where you were before, you need that something they introduced...at a cost.
So it's basically just P2P for what you were doing F2P before they introduced that something...
Marion and using Weapons batt from before?, it probably better to use Battery since you can pop it every 1 min whereas Dem is longer and it takes up a BO slot
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
You can check his ship here:
http://hu.twitch.tv/perfectworld_community/b/475601587
So if u see his toolbar, you figure out, that there is nothing wrong with it, its not broken. Why would someone from them, use broken stuff?
This game is not worth the name of Star Trek lol
ya i noticed he had 2 copies of a certain ability on there lol. i only hope he knows that he needs to have tech doffs along with those 2 abilities.