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Learnt a thing or two outside of the pvp circles

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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    So can anyone show a DPS 11k+ pve build? (non a2b)

    Torp boat - best run 22k (avg 16k)
    http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=blunderbussrom_0
    Torp doffs / GW doff / Aux to damp matter anti matter doff

    Jem - All Cannons - best run 21k (avg 16k)
    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=jemapve_0
    2 AP doffs / Aux to damp matter anti matter doff / 2 DMG control
    (sometimes I swap the EPTS out for a EPTW... as a pvp guy it feels so wrong that I don't do it now and then... in general though no need for the ETPS in pve really, not when your running with 4 other guys with high dps anyway)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • caldannachcaldannach Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Aux 2 bat works with all kinds of builds, not just FAW. I always run aux 2 bat on my rom ships if possible just for the help it gives to usual Rom power level being low and also to allow me to use attack patterns more often and RSP. If you use plasmonic leech at the same time and have a synergy amp from an elite fleet core you are also looking at triggering that on 2, maybe 3 sub sytems as well.

    All adds up.

    Right now i am running a Arkif plasma build, and i parsed 32k DPS on the carrier in Cure Elite space. Obviously with alpha strike. I can only manage one slot of Aux 2 bat on that though due to limited eng stations otherwise it would be really crazy.

    However aux 2 bat doesnt seem as effective with fed ships. Not to me at least.
    " Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    caldannach wrote: »
    Aux 2 bat works with all kinds of builds, not just FAW. I always run aux 2 bat on my rom ships if possible just for the help it gives to usual Rom power level being low and also to allow me to use attack patterns more often and RSP. If you use plasmonic leech at the same time and have a synergy amp from an elite fleet core you are also looking at triggering that on 2, maybe 3 sub sytems as well.

    All adds up.

    Right now i am running a Arkif plasma build, and i parsed 32k DPS on the carrier in Cure Elite space. Obviously with alpha strike. I can only manage one slot of Aux 2 bat on that though due to limited eng stations otherwise it would be really crazy.

    However aux 2 bat doesnt seem as effective with fed ships. Not to me at least.

    I hope you realize that up until yours, not a single a2b build had been posted in this thread. These guys are doing these damage numbers without it.
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  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited September 2013
    aux2batt is kinda like a poor mans version. They use attack pattern cooldown doffs to mimic the effect. I do the same thing on my recluse which until they posted theirs I hadn't realised we had built something so similar. They have built theirs a bit more offensively though =P

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    porchsong wrote: »

    May i ask, why are u using flow caps? there is 0 energy/shield drain in that build. I guess is for the plasma infused mod, but why not use other console that gives u something u may find more usefull?
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • ziggydsziggyds Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    playhard88 wrote: »
    May i ask, why are u using flow caps? there is 0 energy/shield drain in that build. I guess is for the plasma infused mod, but why not use other console that gives u something u may find more usefull?

    The higher the flow caps the more power plasmonic leech gives.

    The Evil Queen - Tac - Hobo
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  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited September 2013
    I hope you realize that up until yours, not a single a2b build had been posted in this thread. These guys are doing these damage numbers without it.

    For the leech. 100 flow caps = +2 per stack from the leech instead of just +1. He's stacking about 230+ in flow caps so he should be getting about +27/28 from the leech. Makes a big difference.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    ziggyds wrote: »
    The higher the flow caps the more power plasmonic leech gives.

    oh,i miss the leech console there. thx

    Now another question to the pve guys (cause this is the kind of things that is more likely they have tested), the leech make any diference in the DPS when u are running aux2bat+EptW? or is just a waste of slot
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    There's actually been several that do post in the PvP section when we're all discussing mechanics. Some of them literally don't nor won't touch PvP, but they enjoy doing the spreadsheet warrior stuff - looking at the math/mechanics - and the rest. With PvP folks doing various sorts of testing, min/maxing, while they're not pushing the extremes of DPS - they're generally pushing in multiple areas which makes for a decent place to find folks to test things.

    Like me :D

    I have been trying PvP out, and I participated in the boot camp (most of it), but I am pretty much pure PvE. And yet, here I am posting again XD.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    leach is always helpful, unless your using a maco shield

    here's how overcaping works. 125 is the effect cap, but you can push your actual power level much higher. when you fire a weapon, power is depleted from this pool you cant see before it drains any power below 125. for every shot that doesn't drain you below 125, thats a shot fired at the effect cap. with overcaping your best shot isnt more damaging, but your worst shot, and average shot, is quite a bit higher. that returned more DPS, and your DPS does a lot less fluctuating.

    it should also be noted that a shot does its damage based on the weapons energy level at the exact server tic its fired. an entire weapons cycle does not fire at the energy level its first shot was fired at. each shot in a cycle depends on the energy level that exact moment.

    BO hates you overcaping. it drains all your overcaped energy, + 50 when you fire it. its an TRIBBLE hole
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    leach is always helpful, unless your using a maco shield

    here's how overcaping works. 125 is the effect cap, but you can push your actual power level much higher. when you fire a weapon, power is depleted from this pool you cant see before it drains any power below 125. for every shot that doesn't drain you below 125, thats a shot fired at the effect cap. with overcaping your best shot isnt more damaging, but your worst shot, and average shot, is quite a bit higher. that returned more DPS, and your DPS does a lot less fluctuating.

    it should also be noted that a shot does its damage based on the weapons energy level at the exact server tic its fired. an entire weapons cycle does not fire at the energy level its first shot was fired at. each shot in a cycle depends on the energy level that exact moment.

    BO hates you overcaping. it drains all your overcaped energy, + 50 when you fire it. its an TRIBBLE hole

    I run 125 weapons as base, plus aux2bat and EptW, and the borg console+kcb bonus. Does the plasmonich leech make any diference over that? I think it may be overkill and the console slot can be better used with other thing. The overcap value is already high, and the drain of the weapons is reduce by the 2set borg proc.

    pd: i have flow cap in 9, but no flow cap console.
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited September 2013
    You have to remember this guy wasn't running A2B so he was getting a huge benefit from the leech in stronger heals, higher resists and slightly better speed and turn. The leech is still nice in A2B builds but I would perhaps run either 50/25/25/100 for very powerful heals on a 20s cycle of high aux or 100/25/25/50 for the same reason but with higher weapon power to begin with.

    Ultimately it's down to how well you can do without heals. On a team with 11/20k guys you should be killing faster than you're taking hits so run all weapons, rest in aux. In a pug...you'll want better heals as you'll be carrying them while they're thinking they're gods doing 4-6k. I tend to have the engineers with RSP on one and DEM on another and switch according to whether I will need an "oh s***" button or a "lolz, all your hull r belong to me" skill for more dps.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    You have to remember this guy wasn't running A2B so he was getting a huge benefit from the leech in stronger heals, higher resists and slightly better speed and turn.

    I know, my question about leech is not related to that guy build.

    bpharma wrote: »
    The leech is still nice in A2B builds but I would perhaps run either 50/25/25/100 for very powerful heals on a 20s cycle of high aux or 100/25/25/50 for the same reason but with higher weapon power to begin with.

    Yes, i think about that, but my problem is that i run out of console slots. I don't want to give up the zero-point, and the rest are 100% neccesary (is for a new pvp build i'm making and i can't free any other slot), so i was thinking in remove the plasmonich, that's why i'm asking.

    If the dps diference without the plasmonich (using a2b, etpw, TRIBBLE.module+kcb) is really small, i can free that console slot that i'm needing by using 125 weapons as base, heals are not a problem, i can handle my self really well with low-aux and one auxiliary battery for buff my heals when needed.
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    make getting to about 160 weapons power your goal. much beyond that is not worth the effort. try to figure out how much leach gives you, how much AtB gives on average, wich is pretty random, and EPtW is easy to add in. ive dropped EPtW almost everywhere though, its pretty much just overkill with all the other power boosters
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You dps 11000 guys know him as John, but boy does he make that recluse sing with dps in PvP. I couldn't stop laughing at how ridiculous it sounded but wow... Look forward to seeing the build tomorrow....

    GG guys...
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    You deeps 11000 guys know him as John, but boy does he make that recluse sing with deeps in in PvP. I couldn't stop laughing at how ridiculous it sounded but wow... Look forward to seeing the build tomorrow....

    GG guys...

    maybe is my english, or maybe is the pot you smoke, but i didn't understand a word of what u said
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    playhard88 wrote: »
    maybe is my english, or maybe is the pot you smoke, but i didn't understand a word of what u said

    Fixed. Damn auto correct..... Deeps = dps

    Must be your pot as well making it worse :)
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I don't have a recluse :confused:
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    playhard88 wrote: »
    I don't have a recluse :confused:

    Wasn't referring to you plahard....lol That stuff must be good man....lol
    He was pew pewing with us for a few hours today.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    You dps 11000 guys know him as John, but boy does he make that recluse sing with dps in PvP. I couldn't stop laughing at how ridiculous it sounded but wow... Look forward to seeing the build tomorrow....

    GG guys...

    doesn't that thing just have 6 weapons slots?
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited September 2013
    Yup but it also has these babies: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Hangar_-_Elite_Tholian_Mesh_Weaver

    Those alone are like bringing another ship with you =D

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • panserbjorne39panserbjorne39 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Thanks for posting a couple of the builds. They're interesting. A couple questions:

    Last I heard, the Rom Embassy Plasma Infused consoles do not stack..is this not the case?
    Wouldn't it be better to run the Hull heal and shield heals as well?
    I'm wondering if Romulan Plasma DoT proc, disruptor proc, and Plasma Infused console proc are all working as intended? Or if this is just a really optimal synergy that's taking place?

    In the tool tip, Driver Coil says it only increase speed in Sector Space so I've never bothered with it thinking it does nothing for combat. False?

    Thanks.
  • porchsongporchsong Member Posts: 262 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Here is the definitive skinny on overcapping beams. There is overcapping. . .sort of. But, not as everyone thinks it is. We (and by we, I mean Tom (aka, hulk or Mal Reynolds) and Saxfire) spent hours working it out.

    Overcapping works in that it will gain you weapon energy back WHILE you are in 4 second beam fire cycle. To explain let me break it down from base, and take the long way there. Let's say your max weapon power is 125 and only 125 (no overcapping). When you fire your beams, it goes into a 4 second beam cycle where your weapon power drops per weapon base drain. So, at full fire you will go down to 65 weapon power for the 4 second fire cycle, then climb back up in between next spray. But what is important here is that it will stay at 65 for full 4 second cycle.

    Overcapping compensates for this based on your power transfer rate. Mine is 10.7 (go to esd space and look at your general section). So I will "gain" back 10.7 per second. And in a 4 second beam cycle, I "can" gain back 42.8--if I overcap to that amount or higher. So, if I know that with my plasmonic leech, eptw, A2B (if you go that route, I don't), batts, etc., all I need to do is get my overcap to 167.8 (125 base + 10.7 x4 = 42.8 power trans rate) and while firing beams, I will creep up 10.7 per second during the 4 second fire cycle. ANYTHING above 167.8 for me is wasted as I can't realize the benefit. If I were to vastly increase my EPS transfer rate, I could theoretically increase my overcap. So overcapping is simply higher primary firing--increasing per second during 4 second fire.

    Tom and Saxie get ALL credit for this. They thoroughly tested it and it proved correct. So your dps gain is not from "overcapping" per se, but by seconds 2-4 of increased weapon power DURING 4 second fire cycle.

    I hope I am explaining this properly.

    As for John's a2b build Recluse--he is pissing me off with his dps, in a scratch-my-head sort of way. It is "partially" due to his a2b build, but mainly it is his piloting that is getting him the dps. We are not too far off in ISE with our recluses (me 25k, John 28-30k), but in PvP he is pulling away from me.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    energy is instantly refunded after a weapons cycle ends, so i dont think any of that is correct. transfer rate has not effected how quickly energy is returned after a cycle for a very long time. only BO operates like that still, not instantly returning the power it uses, and instead regenerating at the power transfer rate.
  • porchsongporchsong Member Posts: 262 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    energy is instantly refunded after a weapons cycle ends, so i dont think any of that is correct. transfer rate has not effected how quickly energy is returned after a cycle for a very long time. only BO operates like that still, not instantly returning the power it uses, and instead regenerating at the power transfer rate.

    Agreed. But this is occurring "During" the fire cycle. Not at it's end.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    porchsong wrote: »
    Here is the definitive skinny on overcapping beams. There is overcapping. . .sort of. But, not as everyone thinks it is. We (and by we, I mean Tom (aka, hulk or Mal Reynolds) and Saxfire) spent hours working it out.

    Overcapping works in that it will gain you weapon energy back WHILE you are in 4 second beam fire cycle. To explain let me break it down from base, and take the long way there. Let's say your max weapon power is 125 and only 125 (no overcapping). When you fire your beams, it goes into a 4 second beam cycle where your weapon power drops per weapon base drain. So, at full fire you will go down to 65 weapon power for the 4 second fire cycle, then climb back up in between next spray. But what is important here is that it will stay at 65 for full 4 second cycle.

    Overcapping compensates for this based on your power transfer rate. Mine is 10.7 (go to esd space and look at your general section). So I will "gain" back 10.7 per second. And in a 4 second beam cycle, I "can" gain back 42.8--if I overcap to that amount or higher. So, if I know that with my plasmonic leech, eptw, A2B (if you go that route, I don't), batts, etc., all I need to do is get my overcap to 167.8 (125 base + 10.7 x4 = 42.8 power trans rate) and while firing beams, I will creep up 10.7 per second during the 4 second fire cycle. ANYTHING above 167.8 for me is wasted as I can't realize the benefit. If I were to vastly increase my EPS transfer rate, I could theoretically increase my overcap. So overcapping is simply higher primary firing--increasing per second during 4 second fire.

    Tom and Saxie get ALL credit for this. They thoroughly tested it and it proved correct. So your dps gain is not from "overcapping" per se, but by seconds 2-4 of increased weapon power DURING 4 second fire cycle.

    I hope I am explaining this properly.

    This is how it works as I have tried to explain more times than I care to count, but I am happy to learn the details about the EPS interaction as I suspected it but never bothered to test/prove it 100%.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12493941&postcount=10
    Might help with the explanation, aside from the EPS interaction anyway that was covered very well by porchsong. Also I consider it a five second cycle as they fire for four seconds then have a one second cooldown but that is just a terminology difference and not important.
  • masterkeychnk5masterkeychnk5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    This is how it works as I have tried to explain more times than I care to count, but I am happy to learn the details about the EPS interaction as I suspected it but never bothered to test/prove it 100%.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12493941&postcount=10
    Might help with the explanation, aside from the EPS interaction anyway that was covered very well by porchsong. Also I consider it a five second cycle as they fire for four seconds then have a one second cooldown but that is just a terminology difference and not important.

    Thats not entirely correct though, DHC have 2 shots per cycle, single/duals 4.

    Dunno if its relevant or anything.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not Snakie, MT is!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    porchsong wrote: »
    Overcapping works in that it will gain you weapon energy back WHILE you are in 4 second beam fire cycle. To explain let me break it down from base, and take the long way there. Let's say your max weapon power is 125 and only 125 (no overcapping). When you fire your beams, it goes into a 4 second beam cycle where your weapon power drops per weapon base drain. So, at full fire you will go down to 65 weapon power for the 4 second fire cycle, then climb back up in between next spray. But what is important here is that it will stay at 65 for full 4 second cycle.

    Problem is...that's what happens regardless.

    You've got 42.8/4s of EPS going on, right? Don't overcap. You'll still get the 42.8/4s back.

    Test guy:

    125(126)/100
    MACO, EPS Manifold, EPtW1
    125(173)/100

    Experimental Array, Cutting Beam, 4x Rom Plasma Array, Omega Torp, Hyper Torp. Should be -50/-60ish.

    If he's full up, 173...he's not dropping below 120ish regardless of what he fires. Something drops off, he drops by that amount. Lose 10, he drops to 110ish. At which point, his 12.5/s EPS kicks in and usually bumps him up pretty quick.

    So, to test further...dropped it to 62/25...which can get bumped up to 108. Regardless of where it was, though...the 12.5/s EPS kicks in - bumping him back up by that amount.

    Now...I don't remember it working like this. In all the discussions, I don't remember it working like this. Well, the overcapping part's always worked that way...but I don't remember the EPS giving the power back quite like that. It was the lost for the duration, not that it was gained back during the duration...

    ...cause that causes issues with so many of the discussions about the difference in drain mechanics.

    Will have to hunt up some cannons...see if the same thing happens there.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    In the tool tip, Driver Coil says it only increase speed in Sector Space so I've never bothered with it thinking it does nothing for combat. False?

    Driver coil effects sector space speed... it does 2 things for you out side of that.

    1) it increases turn rate while you are at full impulse. (not a big deal... but it does that)
    2) most important it increases the lowest setting you power drops to when you do full impulse. (this isn't a major deal most of the time... I find Driver coil more useful in PvP to be honest if I'm in a cloaking ship... where I will be breaking combat more often and using more full impulse.) What it means is when you get to a fight you will likely have 30 power in everything instead of 5. If you do break combat in PvE and need a short boost of Full impulse to get to another cube or what ever the short burst you use barely touches your power settings.

    For the cost of 600 points to put 6 points in I most of the time do that on every build.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited September 2013
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