Typical PUG run for me. (just finished it before i posted this) The guys knew what they were doing, just their DPS was pretty average. And yes, I died once >_> stupid invisitorps and core breaches (got gatewayed in the middle of a couple spheres blowing up after first transformer
One of the things you have to remember is that they're not stacking buffs only on themselves but team buffs or debuffs on the enemy.
For example APB3, nice debuff and increases your damage. It also increases everyone elses. What if you stack it?
Suddenly -50 damage resistance from 1 person becomes -250 damage resistance (assuming a linear stacking which I would say it's close to) for all players shooting at the target.
Now add in someone with a recluse and elite hangar pets and suddenly you're getting 9 stacks on targets.
There are also other things like tactical fleet giving a team damage buff and fleet maneuver gamma. There's also another jem hadar console that adds another I think -50 damage resistance when used.
It's also as others have said, being in the right position and making sure you're not just thinking of where you are now and what is popping now but where your next target is and travel times between them. Those are your dead spots as far as DPS parses are concerned so if you minimise the travel time that adds a lot. Making sure your captain buffs do not overlap into the dps dead zone is key in PvE.
Incidentally there's more to FAW spam than just driving in with 5 cruisers and spamming all targets. FAW increases firing rate and with skilful piloting activating FAW when only 2 targets are in range results in much more focused pressure damage. Have 2-3 members of your team hanging back in combat keeping only 2 players in range will help a lot.
Yes damage drops off at range but it's not as bad with beams and you tend to find it's worth it keeping 2 in range of FAW vs 5 at closer ranges.
Yes, for PVE I always use APB3 now, i saw a nearly 2k DPS increase using that over APO3 (which I still use for PvP)
That is also the reason I am considering going back to disruptors, since their proc is a better team thing. That being said, dropping APs means I lose critD on my ship, and I am running a high crit build (for a fed anyway), so while I might help my team in overall dps output, I will lose a bit in my own spike, which is something to seriously consider in PVP.
Besides, with the huge move lately to rom plasma and disruptors, having APs usually means I am the only one with them (and almost everyone else is running the disruptor proc anyway), and it makes it a little more diverse in terms of PVP damage typing. I am a strong proponent of everyone using a different one.
I am starting to wonder if a "one size fits all" build is not going to work out. What is better for PvP is not better for PvE and vice versa. And so the money grind continues
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
In my experience, once you get past the 10-12K DPS mark you find that the majority of these 15-20K builds factor in lots of pet spam.
I would actually tend to disagree. Maybe indirectly, as-in the DPS is increased by other peoples pets doing APB on everything in sight, but my personal DPS records are 20k in cannons and 27k with BFAW, and neither of them used pets. (That 20k in Cannons was a pretty lucky run, had a Widow in it with beta pet spam, and was an extremely fast run - I think it was 3 minutes 2 seconds, and I flew absolutely perfectly minimizing my downtime)
I think that last point, minimizing downtime, is the key to high DPS in PvE. The Helmsman trait to reduce Evasive I think is vastly overlooked in PvE. When I run with the top-end in Infected, for example, I notice that the people doing 15k+ reach the first transformer 4-5 seconds before the people doing 5-10k, because they're all fast on RMC+Evasive (or engine battery+evasive, or manually switching to engine power) to minimize the downtime.
Piloting is a hugely overlooked aspect of PvE DPS. I remember a while back (a long while back, actually) Porch was hitting a wall with his build, no matter what he did he was flatlining on his DPS and couldn't get it any higher. Our good friend Tom jumped on to his account, played an infected, and smashed his personal record by 6k DPS. Perfect example of how piloting can make such a massive difference. Getting a good GDF, minimizing your downtime, being within 1km of your target at all times - these things are vastly overlooked!
I am starting to wonder if a "one size fits all" build is not going to work out. What is better for PvP is not better for PvE and vice versa. And so the money grind continues
Yes a fair number of top PvE and some PvPers have been saying this for months at least, maybe even years. Last I said it was a few weeks ago and I was mostly heckled by the PvP community with words like: The bottom 1% of PvP players are better than the top 1% of PvE players. Or anything that's good in PvP roflstomps PvE.
Let's try not to stick to these sour grapes though and I hope we're all starting to get the feeling that they are 2 very different play styles and what might be optimal in one is not always optimal in the other.
As for your personal preference to AP. I think it would be better to get topset or porchsongs advice on that. I dare say having at least 1 player bringing extra firepower works well if the other 4 are buffing it in terms of disruptor procs but I do not have any testing or experience with that as I find it generally harder to get teams that do this level of damage increasing for their team.
Topset, I am actually very curious about one thing.
Ever since the change to EPtE on the spheres, I have noticed that generally it is much much more difficult to maintain them in that nice tight pack by the gateway. You end up having to chase them down single target and in all of my parses that accounts for the vast majority of my personal downtime.
In fact my death in that parse above is because i was trying to take the spheres out before they had a chance to scatter (and a really unlucky crit from an invisitorp), which should be obvious as there is a large damage spike just before it drops to zero, the aoe spam.
With the crowd control being so broken by this change (you almost need to have someone with a 250+ graviton skill to slow them enough to keep them in a well), are numbers today lower than they were back in the days of these huge ones?
What I mean is, can you still top out like you used to?
My personal best runs have all been scenarios where the spheres never had a chance to spread out, and that is not an easy task considering most people specced for DPS are not carrying around massive CC with them. And it is guaranteed to not happen in a PUG at any rate.
I could see the opportunity to just CSV mow them down if two or three tacscorts all laid into them in the tight pack before they spread, but that rarely ever happens outside of perfectly set up premade groups.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I know ISE is the benchmark for measuring DPS for many but I wonder if the Starbase in Tau Dewa sector (sorry forgot the name -starbase 28?) is a better indicator of personal DPS since DPS numbers can be inflated by your teams debuffs on target (ex: stacks of APB). Shouldn't we use personal DPS rather than DPS in a team, since your DPS will vary depending on the team you are in.
Topset, I'm really interested in what you are doing to get such high DPS. I run a AuxtoBAT Fleet Assault cruiser and usually get up to 9 to 11K. I don't know how you get up to 20K. Totally blown away.
I'm not at all surprised to hear that a bunch of solid PvE players tore up some veteran PvP players in the queues. I did nothing but PvE for 2 years, tuning first my FPE and FTER, and later my FAHCR, for maximum DPS output. I can hit 12K+ in all of the major ESTFs, and I've completed ISE in 4:42 as part of a PUG where there were two other 10K+ DPS players along with two dead weights (I saved the CombatLog for posterity).
So when I decided to roll my FAHCR into Ker'rat for some PvP testing, I was pleasantly surprised to see how effective it was. Most of the changes I made were relatively minor - switching out APB1/BFAW3 for APO1/BFAW2, adding some fleet neuts to handle the shield penetrating spike damage, and learning a different combat style (stack your buffs FTW) - but otherwise, it's the same ship.
Bottom Line: I have a proven effective PvP cruiser build (I rarely lose a 1v1) that retains much of its PvE roots. In fact, I can roll out of Ker'rat and into an ESTF as the leading DPS boat without missing a beat. I'm wondering how many of the double-tap "glass cannons" I play against could say the same for their builds.
Rck, its a personal preference. I could put my tac toon into cruiser, but it is a matter of choice. Glass cannon or not, u die in 0.5 -1 sec. At least until they implement 5 sec lockout. ^^
[10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
The PvE build vs PvP build is quite true. Some PvP builds aren't worth squat in PvE. Most do well enough, but aren't anywhere near optimal. While true that most PvP builds will be sufficient for PvE, the same can be said for a Gal-R... and nobody ever accused her of being optimal...
If you want to reach the pinnacle of performance in PvE, you need an entirely different mindset. PvE DPS is all about target aquisition, uptime (both on targets and abilities) and sacrificing durability for more boom. Every little bit counts, and the higher your damage the less defense you need. Of course, take an optimized PvE build into PvP and you won't live long enough to finish stacking your buffs.
On testing, I'd personally rather know my DPS in a group setting then in a solo one. That is because I tend to play in groups. If you tend to solo then you would likely want a good solo test... I haven't hunted one out in a while but back in the day I used to run the Foundry mission "Wanton Space Combat (Romulan)" and fly right into the center of the mess to test both my DPS and durability. If I came out with no deaths I considered it durable enough =P its been a long time tho, I don't know if that mission is even around any more. That starbase thing I've heard recommended a couple times, but I'm not familiar enough with it to know how it stacks up.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
The PvE build vs PvP build is quite true. Some PvP builds aren't worth squat in PvE. Most dboys and girls to jump into the PVP ll enough, but aren't anywhere near optimal. While true that most PvP builds will be sufficient for PvE, the same can be said for a Gal-R... and nobody ever accused her of being optimal...
If you want to reach the pinnacle of performance in PvE, you need an entirely different mindset. PvE DPS is all about target aquisition, uptime (both on targets and abilities) and sacrificing durability for more boom. Every little bit counts, and the higher your damage the less defense you need. Of course, take an optimized PvE build into PvP and you won't live long enough to finish stacking your buffs.
On testing, I'd personally rather know my DPS in a group setting then in a solo one. That is because I tend to play in groups. If you tend to solo then you would likely want a good solo test... I haven't hunted one out in a while but back in the day I used to run the Foundry mission "Wanton Space Combat (Romulan)" and fly right into the center of the mess to test both my DPS and durability. If I came out with no deaths I considered it durable enough =P its been a long time tho, I don't know if that mission is even around any more. That starbase thing I've heard recommended a couple times, but I'm not familiar enough with it to know how it stacks up.
Starbase 24 would be bad to test dps because, in the early parts, you spend more time finding and flying targets than killing them. So, just based on this fact, damage per second is pointless to measure on this mission.
I used to use form advance to measure damage and survivability when I was kirk in PvP queues in a similar fashion to how you used to on foundary.
On a different note, PVE talk in a PVP area. Wow.....lol Seriously though, good to see PVErs finally feel comfortable enough to post here. And so it should be.
Hopefully, like others have stated earlier in the thread, hopefully things like this discussion will facilitate min maxing PVE boys and girls moving into the PVP arenas.
Porch has set a channel up for that transition so that you get the relevant information fast and effectively if you do wish to make the leap from speed PVE to PvP. Just ask in DPS11000 channel and hopefully someone will pick you up.
Hopefully, Husanak will help facilitate this move and also use TD as a good intro to team based PvP.
Starbase 24 would be bad to test dps as in the early parts, you spend more time finding and flying targets than killing them.
Actually, she might be referring to SB 234. Which is the one I've often posted about on the forums, or mentioned in game.
SB 234 is in Tau Dewa Sector block.
After you kill a few simple NPCs, you can start your /combatlog and then perform a simple time trial against the SB 234.
It's very straightforward and controlled, and is good for answering fairly simple questions about different DPS focused set ups against a single hard target.
It has quite a lot of hull, so you can easily get a full minute of fire (or more depending on your build) for a decent parsing.
It lacks in some areas as once the shields are depleted you spend a good portion of the time firing directly on raw hull - which will increase certain weapon types performance. It's also nothing like firing on a player, so don't try and use it for more than it really is.
If you want to test your build vs. a fairly extreme end of the kinetic damage spectrum set it to Elite, otherwise Normal is generally enough for simple DPS tests.
Actually, she might be referring to SB 234. Which is the one I've often posted about on the forums, or mentioned in game.
SB 234 is in Tau Dewa Sector block.
After you kill a few simple NPCs, you can start your /combatlog and then perform a simple time trial against the SB 234.
It's very straightforward and controlled, and is good for answering fairly simple questions about different DPS focused set ups against a single hard target.
It has quite a lot of hull, so you can easily get a full minute of fire (or more depending on your build) for a decent parsing.
It lacks in some areas as once the shields are depleted you spend a good portion of the time firing directly on raw hull - which will increase certain weapon types performance. It's also nothing like firing on a player, so don't try and use it for more than it really is.
If you want to test your build vs. a fairly extreme end of the kinetic damage spectrum set it to Elite, otherwise Normal is generally enough for simple DPS tests.
Topset, I am actually very curious about one thing.
Ever since the change to EPtE on the spheres, I have noticed that generally it is much much more difficult to maintain them in that nice tight pack by the gateway. You end up having to chase them down single target and in all of my parses that accounts for the vast majority of my personal downtime.
In fact my death in that parse above is because i was trying to take the spheres out before they had a chance to scatter (and a really unlucky crit from an invisitorp), which should be obvious as there is a large damage spike just before it drops to zero, the aoe spam.
With the crowd control being so broken by this change (you almost need to have someone with a 250+ graviton skill to slow them enough to keep them in a well), are numbers today lower than they were back in the days of these huge ones?
What I mean is, can you still top out like you used to?
My personal best runs have all been scenarios where the spheres never had a chance to spread out, and that is not an easy task considering most people specced for DPS are not carrying around massive CC with them. And it is guaranteed to not happen in a PUG at any rate.
I could see the opportunity to just CSV mow them down if two or three tacscorts all laid into them in the tight pack before they spread, but that rarely ever happens outside of perfectly set up premade groups.
There is a technique you can use to "hold" the spheres. @John98837, aka Numbers, or #'s as I call him (a beast btw) has a technique he uses on them. But, he uses his NWS to do it and has to get into position at the exact moment the transformer blows. He essentially drops a gw and then tbr them back into well. This works very well. Another technique is to "backstop" them. This is a very tricky technique that does not always work. Essentially you have to drop a gw on the "first" sphere that breaks and comes at you. Hit it with the gw when it comes close to you and before it turns off. It will hold the sphere as the epte is spent and the other spheres will all run into it and bang into each other--and into your grav well. It does not work all the time, but can be effective if all you have is gw.
As far as top runs, well, initially when the cryptic changed ISE, we thought "This is going to suck." And it did at first. But we adapted quickly and have now set all the new speed records with the change--smashed them actually. We still think we can shave 3-5 seconds off record in ISE. On the others, hmmm, might be tough--especially the HSE run--as we are only reseting records by only a second or two.
It lacks in some areas as once the shields are depleted you spend a good portion of the time firing directly on raw hull - which will increase certain weapon types performance. It's also nothing like firing on a player, so don't try and use it for more than it really is.
It used to be much better - but like most things, they nerfed it. Could hit it with all sorts of things and it would grin, giving you the finger. Then it actually started popping...meh.
Really wish they'd give us an instance with actual target dummies.
Something to reflect a difference in resistance/reduction as well as possible to-hit.
Something folks could solo run or even group run.
Heck, they could even have courses set up to reflect the need for movement within the instance as well.
Course, I'm still not thinking DPS - still thinking testing things (but it would be easier to do that than load the second client (which has been a PITA in the past few weeks for some reason - same time that TIF stopped causing me to desync, two clients have run like garbage - meh)...
Rck, its a personal preference. I could put my tac toon into cruiser, but it is a matter of choice. Glass cannon or not, u die in 0.5 -1 sec. At least until they implement 5 sec lockout. ^^
First, you don't always get me - at least not on your own. When you've succeeded, it has almost always been as part of a gank, typically with your pet Jonie in tow.
Second, in less than a month of PvP'ing (after doing PvE exclusively up until now), I've figured out how to defeat 90% or more of the klinks and rommies I've encountered, including regulars like Tommo, Queenie, Trigger, and on at least one occasion, Cyrox. It's only a matter of time before I figure out how to counter your cheese-ball, double-tap crapfest consistently.
Of course, if you'd finally agree to a little 1v1 time I could speed up that process. But you've turned me down every time, so I'll just have to hunt you down at every opportunity...all in good fun, of course.
On a different note, PVE talk in a PVP area. Wow.....lol Seriously though, good to see PVErs finally feel comfortable enough to post here. And so it should be.
There's actually been several that do post in the PvP section when we're all discussing mechanics. Some of them literally don't nor won't touch PvP, but they enjoy doing the spreadsheet warrior stuff - looking at the math/mechanics - and the rest. With PvP folks doing various sorts of testing, min/maxing, while they're not pushing the extremes of DPS - they're generally pushing in multiple areas which makes for a decent place to find folks to test things.
It used to be much better - but like most things, they nerfed it. Could hit it with all sorts of things and it would grin, giving you the finger. Then it actually started popping...meh.
Really wish they'd give us an instance with actual target dummies.
Something to reflect a difference in resistance/reduction as well as possible to-hit.
Something folks could solo run or even group run.
Heck, they could even have courses set up to reflect the need for movement within the instance as well.
Course, I'm still not thinking DPS - still thinking testing things (but it would be easier to do that than load the second client (which has been a PITA in the past few weeks for some reason - same time that TIF stopped causing me to desync, two clients have run like garbage - meh)...
yeah they should add (photonic?) training dummy ships to starbases. Even if they made it another special project to unlock it would really be helpful for dps crunchers and just to test skills and timing.
yeah they should add (photonic?) training dummy ships to starbases. Even if they made it another special project to unlock it would really be helpful for dps crunchers and just to test skills and timing.
That would actually be pretty nifty. S9's supposed to have a military holding, no? Target Range!
First, you don't always get me - at least not on your own. When you've succeeded, it has almost always been as part of a gank, typically with your pet Jonie in tow.
Second, in less than a month of PvP'ing (after doing PvE exclusively up until now), I've figured out how to defeat 90% or more of the klinks and rommies I've encountered, including regulars like Tommo, Queenie, Trigger, and on at least one occasion, Cyrox. It's only a matter of time before I figure out how to counter your cheese-ball, double-tap crapfest consistently.
Of course, if you'd finally agree to a little 1v1 time I could speed up that process. But you've turned me down every time, so I'll just have to hunt you down at every opportunity...all in good fun, of course.
RCK
I thought fu ball of black goo of doom was nerfed! It looks pretty tho. And it makes strange sounds if u pay attention. The thing is..cloaked ships have advantage. By the time u pop all your buffs my ship is gone. What u should do? Circle your buffs all the time. I mean all the time! Stay inside fedball.
[10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
There is a technique you can use to "hold" the spheres. @John98837, aka Numbers, or #'s as I call him (a beast btw) has a technique he uses on them. But, he uses his NWS to do it and has to get into position at the exact moment the transformer blows. He essentially drops a gw and then tbr them back into well. This works very well. Another technique is to "backstop" them. This is a very tricky technique that does not always work. Essentially you have to drop a gw on the "first" sphere that breaks and comes at you. Hit it with the gw when it comes close to you and before it turns off. It will hold the sphere as the epte is spent and the other spheres will all run into it and bang into each other--and into your grav well. It does not work all the time, but can be effective if all you have is gw.
My method is lazier, and requires a tiny bit of timing. :P
GPG and/or SIC and/or Isometric Charge and/or GW and/or TBR
Usually GPG wth an aux batt and 6 ranks will hold them so still that you don't even need anything else, but I usually pop everything else in the list in order to make them die quicker.
I avoid those consoles in PvP, but it's OK to eat NPCs because they don't have any feelings.
First, you don't always get me - at least not on your own. When you've succeeded, it has almost always been as part of a gank, typically with your pet Jonie in tow.
Second, in less than a month of PvP'ing (after doing PvE exclusively up until now), I've figured out how to defeat 90% or more of the klinks and rommies I've encountered, including regulars like Tommo, Queenie, Trigger, and on at least one occasion, Cyrox. It's only a matter of time before I figure out how to counter your cheese-ball, double-tap crapfest consistently.
Of course, if you'd finally agree to a little 1v1 time I could speed up that process. But you've turned me down every time, so I'll just have to hunt you down at every opportunity...all in good fun, of course.
RCK
i thought naming and shaming were against forum policies.?.?. why am i a 'pet' now?
you do know that i have more than one toon don't you? namely raijin. i know you know who that is. *evil grin.
not every alpha is a success i don't don't see anybody here claiming it is. of course when you sit at the top of the map 'waiting' there will be more fails than success'. for the record, when you are involved in battles it becomes much easier for 'jonie' and i'vaan to tap you. i thought we were just having fun, but judging by the intonations of your posts, it must be personal for you.
IF you can catch jonie, and Can't blow her up, that says more about you than her. jonie has no rps, ep2s, or even TSS. in fact she only has 19.2 resists. lol also jonie used double tap for one day and felt dirty for doing so... it's just toooo dang easy.
anyway... /thread derailed... sorry
hf kill bad guys
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
So can anyone show a DPS 11k+ pve build? (non a2b)
What do you want to see: Cannon Build? Beam Build? NWS Build? Rommie Build? Here is my NWS Build, my Recluse Build, and my old Kumari Cannon Build (dont really fly her anymore so I might change a little here or there today on her).
I am sort of blown away that except for damage type and the bio circuits console (redmatter too), this is my ship O_o
I have a boff I can slot with TBR and GW
Yet (maybe due to pugging) I have never gotten past wave 7.
I am starting to think my problem really is those 26.2 dilithium store consoles im still using. >_> man i dont wanna drop 150 million. ugh. make the spire come out already
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I am sort of blown away that except for damage type and the bio circuits console (redmatter too), this is my ship O_o
I have a boff I can slot with TBR and GW
Yet (maybe due to pugging) I have never gotten past wave 7.
Well, I am using Refracting Tets out of boredom and for the cascade getting a little amped by tet consoles. Disruptors are equally effective.
Red matter is really not popped unless on wave 10.
But, NWS is all about crowd control and knowing when to pop buffs. The bio circuit is awesome on wave 10 as if you use this pattern you pretty much annihilate your wave (just have to do minor cleanup unless you have a Dread to pop):
at 3 secs to start of wave 10 hit tf (if not already up), then apa, then apo, then sv2, send over 1 volley, then tt, another volley, then rom rep cloak, then gw, apb, sv, send a volley, tt, subspace, fly in within 3k, then cascade. Throw pirates out there if you want--I do.
That pattern should just about kill your whole wave mostly. But, importantly is that you are around 5.75 to 6.25 from transport at start of wave so you are not losing dps to distance. I'm usually 7.25 (except on N) but would NOT recommend this until you REALLY know your flank's wave warp/distance pattern. Stay at 5.5 to 5.75k.
Now here is a VERY important technique in handling warheads.
Most people get eaten alive by them or get killed taking out platforms (We never take out platforms anymore btw). The reason they get clobbered by them is because of buff mismanagement. Most people pop ap, sv, then tt to close together and then die as tt only lasts for 10 secs and it takes longer than 10 secs to kill your warheads. I'm talking about wave 9 warheads as all the others are easy (but practice pattern on them). The proper pattern to eat warheads is:
when they are around 10.4k away from you, hit either apa or apb, then sv2. Send at LEAST one volley over, but try to send over 2 volleys, ***THEN*** hit tt. At this point your front shields will be gone or almost gone and you are taking a little hull damage. But when you hit tt, the other three sides will instantly heal your forward face.
We fly NWS all the time and our vet teams can sleep through wave 9. In fact we try to handicap ourselves to make it a little interesting, like never popping alpha, or gw, just killing using apo/apb and tbr.
But any help you might want or if you ever want to fly with us, it is never a problem.
Topset, I am actually very curious about one thing.
Ever since the change to EPtE on the spheres, I have noticed that generally it is much much more difficult to maintain them in that nice tight pack by the gateway. You end up having to chase them down single target and in all of my parses that accounts for the vast majority of my personal downtime.
Plenty of the DPS runs we have been destroying spheres first... they don't kick there epte on until the generator goes... just kill them first.
When I am on the team with one of my torp boats I tell the others to play it normal... my torp boats can one shot all the spheres 9 out of 10 times, as long as I don't TRIBBLE up my timing.
GW -> Plasma HY 3 -> Destabalized -> Breen Cluster -> Plasma Mine DPB3 -> Tric as I pass
Like I say about a 90% success rate on that run. The other 9% of the time... there might be one or two left with almost no hull... and 1% of the time I F up badly and blow myself up. lol
Comments
http://i.imgur.com/BmHAlh3.jpg
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
For example APB3, nice debuff and increases your damage. It also increases everyone elses. What if you stack it?
Suddenly -50 damage resistance from 1 person becomes -250 damage resistance (assuming a linear stacking which I would say it's close to) for all players shooting at the target.
Now add in someone with a recluse and elite hangar pets and suddenly you're getting 9 stacks on targets.
There are also other things like tactical fleet giving a team damage buff and fleet maneuver gamma. There's also another jem hadar console that adds another I think -50 damage resistance when used.
It's also as others have said, being in the right position and making sure you're not just thinking of where you are now and what is popping now but where your next target is and travel times between them. Those are your dead spots as far as DPS parses are concerned so if you minimise the travel time that adds a lot. Making sure your captain buffs do not overlap into the dps dead zone is key in PvE.
Incidentally there's more to FAW spam than just driving in with 5 cruisers and spamming all targets. FAW increases firing rate and with skilful piloting activating FAW when only 2 targets are in range results in much more focused pressure damage. Have 2-3 members of your team hanging back in combat keeping only 2 players in range will help a lot.
Yes damage drops off at range but it's not as bad with beams and you tend to find it's worth it keeping 2 in range of FAW vs 5 at closer ranges.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
That is also the reason I am considering going back to disruptors, since their proc is a better team thing. That being said, dropping APs means I lose critD on my ship, and I am running a high crit build (for a fed anyway), so while I might help my team in overall dps output, I will lose a bit in my own spike, which is something to seriously consider in PVP.
Besides, with the huge move lately to rom plasma and disruptors, having APs usually means I am the only one with them (and almost everyone else is running the disruptor proc anyway), and it makes it a little more diverse in terms of PVP damage typing. I am a strong proponent of everyone using a different one.
I am starting to wonder if a "one size fits all" build is not going to work out. What is better for PvP is not better for PvE and vice versa. And so the money grind continues
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I would actually tend to disagree. Maybe indirectly, as-in the DPS is increased by other peoples pets doing APB on everything in sight, but my personal DPS records are 20k in cannons and 27k with BFAW, and neither of them used pets. (That 20k in Cannons was a pretty lucky run, had a Widow in it with beta pet spam, and was an extremely fast run - I think it was 3 minutes 2 seconds, and I flew absolutely perfectly minimizing my downtime)
I think that last point, minimizing downtime, is the key to high DPS in PvE. The Helmsman trait to reduce Evasive I think is vastly overlooked in PvE. When I run with the top-end in Infected, for example, I notice that the people doing 15k+ reach the first transformer 4-5 seconds before the people doing 5-10k, because they're all fast on RMC+Evasive (or engine battery+evasive, or manually switching to engine power) to minimize the downtime.
Piloting is a hugely overlooked aspect of PvE DPS. I remember a while back (a long while back, actually) Porch was hitting a wall with his build, no matter what he did he was flatlining on his DPS and couldn't get it any higher. Our good friend Tom jumped on to his account, played an infected, and smashed his personal record by 6k DPS. Perfect example of how piloting can make such a massive difference. Getting a good GDF, minimizing your downtime, being within 1km of your target at all times - these things are vastly overlooked!
Kirk's Protege.
This is pretty interesting, because I saw the exact opposite and still use APO3
Well, I use APO3+APB1+2 AP Conn Officers so I can cycle between the two with no downtime.
Kirk's Protege.
Yes a fair number of top PvE and some PvPers have been saying this for months at least, maybe even years. Last I said it was a few weeks ago and I was mostly heckled by the PvP community with words like: The bottom 1% of PvP players are better than the top 1% of PvE players. Or anything that's good in PvP roflstomps PvE.
Let's try not to stick to these sour grapes though and I hope we're all starting to get the feeling that they are 2 very different play styles and what might be optimal in one is not always optimal in the other.
As for your personal preference to AP. I think it would be better to get topset or porchsongs advice on that. I dare say having at least 1 player bringing extra firepower works well if the other 4 are buffing it in terms of disruptor procs but I do not have any testing or experience with that as I find it generally harder to get teams that do this level of damage increasing for their team.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Ever since the change to EPtE on the spheres, I have noticed that generally it is much much more difficult to maintain them in that nice tight pack by the gateway. You end up having to chase them down single target and in all of my parses that accounts for the vast majority of my personal downtime.
In fact my death in that parse above is because i was trying to take the spheres out before they had a chance to scatter (and a really unlucky crit from an invisitorp), which should be obvious as there is a large damage spike just before it drops to zero, the aoe spam.
With the crowd control being so broken by this change (you almost need to have someone with a 250+ graviton skill to slow them enough to keep them in a well), are numbers today lower than they were back in the days of these huge ones?
What I mean is, can you still top out like you used to?
My personal best runs have all been scenarios where the spheres never had a chance to spread out, and that is not an easy task considering most people specced for DPS are not carrying around massive CC with them. And it is guaranteed to not happen in a PUG at any rate.
I could see the opportunity to just CSV mow them down if two or three tacscorts all laid into them in the tight pack before they spread, but that rarely ever happens outside of perfectly set up premade groups.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
...
wut
that was the setup i was using BEFORE i switched to APB3 due to advice from the last few pages of this thread http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=295581
that... is interesting
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Topset, I'm really interested in what you are doing to get such high DPS. I run a AuxtoBAT Fleet Assault cruiser and usually get up to 9 to 11K. I don't know how you get up to 20K. Totally blown away.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
The PvE build vs PvP build is quite true. Some PvP builds aren't worth squat in PvE. Most do well enough, but aren't anywhere near optimal. While true that most PvP builds will be sufficient for PvE, the same can be said for a Gal-R... and nobody ever accused her of being optimal...
If you want to reach the pinnacle of performance in PvE, you need an entirely different mindset. PvE DPS is all about target aquisition, uptime (both on targets and abilities) and sacrificing durability for more boom. Every little bit counts, and the higher your damage the less defense you need. Of course, take an optimized PvE build into PvP and you won't live long enough to finish stacking your buffs.
On testing, I'd personally rather know my DPS in a group setting then in a solo one. That is because I tend to play in groups. If you tend to solo then you would likely want a good solo test... I haven't hunted one out in a while but back in the day I used to run the Foundry mission "Wanton Space Combat (Romulan)" and fly right into the center of the mess to test both my DPS and durability. If I came out with no deaths I considered it durable enough =P its been a long time tho, I don't know if that mission is even around any more. That starbase thing I've heard recommended a couple times, but I'm not familiar enough with it to know how it stacks up.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Starbase 24 would be bad to test dps because, in the early parts, you spend more time finding and flying targets than killing them. So, just based on this fact, damage per second is pointless to measure on this mission.
I used to use form advance to measure damage and survivability when I was kirk in PvP queues in a similar fashion to how you used to on foundary.
On a different note, PVE talk in a PVP area. Wow.....lol Seriously though, good to see PVErs finally feel comfortable enough to post here. And so it should be.
Hopefully, like others have stated earlier in the thread, hopefully things like this discussion will facilitate min maxing PVE boys and girls moving into the PVP arenas.
Porch has set a channel up for that transition so that you get the relevant information fast and effectively if you do wish to make the leap from speed PVE to PvP. Just ask in DPS11000 channel and hopefully someone will pick you up.
Hopefully, Husanak will help facilitate this move and also use TD as a good intro to team based PvP.
Actually, she might be referring to SB 234. Which is the one I've often posted about on the forums, or mentioned in game.
SB 234 is in Tau Dewa Sector block.
After you kill a few simple NPCs, you can start your /combatlog and then perform a simple time trial against the SB 234.
It's very straightforward and controlled, and is good for answering fairly simple questions about different DPS focused set ups against a single hard target.
It has quite a lot of hull, so you can easily get a full minute of fire (or more depending on your build) for a decent parsing.
It lacks in some areas as once the shields are depleted you spend a good portion of the time firing directly on raw hull - which will increase certain weapon types performance. It's also nothing like firing on a player, so don't try and use it for more than it really is.
If you want to test your build vs. a fairly extreme end of the kinetic damage spectrum set it to Elite, otherwise Normal is generally enough for simple DPS tests.
Ah, cool. Thanks for the info.
There is a technique you can use to "hold" the spheres. @John98837, aka Numbers, or #'s as I call him (a beast btw) has a technique he uses on them. But, he uses his NWS to do it and has to get into position at the exact moment the transformer blows. He essentially drops a gw and then tbr them back into well. This works very well. Another technique is to "backstop" them. This is a very tricky technique that does not always work. Essentially you have to drop a gw on the "first" sphere that breaks and comes at you. Hit it with the gw when it comes close to you and before it turns off. It will hold the sphere as the epte is spent and the other spheres will all run into it and bang into each other--and into your grav well. It does not work all the time, but can be effective if all you have is gw.
As far as top runs, well, initially when the cryptic changed ISE, we thought "This is going to suck." And it did at first. But we adapted quickly and have now set all the new speed records with the change--smashed them actually. We still think we can shave 3-5 seconds off record in ISE. On the others, hmmm, might be tough--especially the HSE run--as we are only reseting records by only a second or two.
DPS Channels / League Info (STO Forums)
It used to be much better - but like most things, they nerfed it. Could hit it with all sorts of things and it would grin, giving you the finger. Then it actually started popping...meh.
Really wish they'd give us an instance with actual target dummies.
Infinite Hull Normal. Infinite Hull Elite.
Infinite Shield/Hull Normal. Infinite Shield/Hull Elite.
Something to reflect a difference in resistance/reduction as well as possible to-hit.
Something folks could solo run or even group run.
Heck, they could even have courses set up to reflect the need for movement within the instance as well.
Course, I'm still not thinking DPS - still thinking testing things (but it would be easier to do that than load the second client (which has been a PITA in the past few weeks for some reason - same time that TIF stopped causing me to desync, two clients have run like garbage - meh)...
First, you don't always get me - at least not on your own. When you've succeeded, it has almost always been as part of a gank, typically with your pet Jonie in tow.
Second, in less than a month of PvP'ing (after doing PvE exclusively up until now), I've figured out how to defeat 90% or more of the klinks and rommies I've encountered, including regulars like Tommo, Queenie, Trigger, and on at least one occasion, Cyrox. It's only a matter of time before I figure out how to counter your cheese-ball, double-tap crapfest consistently.
Of course, if you'd finally agree to a little 1v1 time I could speed up that process. But you've turned me down every time, so I'll just have to hunt you down at every opportunity...all in good fun, of course.
RCK
There's actually been several that do post in the PvP section when we're all discussing mechanics. Some of them literally don't nor won't touch PvP, but they enjoy doing the spreadsheet warrior stuff - looking at the math/mechanics - and the rest. With PvP folks doing various sorts of testing, min/maxing, while they're not pushing the extremes of DPS - they're generally pushing in multiple areas which makes for a decent place to find folks to test things.
yeah they should add (photonic?) training dummy ships to starbases. Even if they made it another special project to unlock it would really be helpful for dps crunchers and just to test skills and timing.
That would actually be pretty nifty. S9's supposed to have a military holding, no? Target Range!
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
My method is lazier, and requires a tiny bit of timing. :P
GPG and/or SIC and/or Isometric Charge and/or GW and/or TBR
Usually GPG wth an aux batt and 6 ranks will hold them so still that you don't even need anything else, but I usually pop everything else in the list in order to make them die quicker.
I avoid those consoles in PvP, but it's OK to eat NPCs because they don't have any feelings.
i thought naming and shaming were against forum policies.?.?. why am i a 'pet' now?
you do know that i have more than one toon don't you? namely raijin. i know you know who that is. *evil grin.
not every alpha is a success i don't don't see anybody here claiming it is. of course when you sit at the top of the map 'waiting' there will be more fails than success'. for the record, when you are involved in battles it becomes much easier for 'jonie' and i'vaan to tap you. i thought we were just having fun, but judging by the intonations of your posts, it must be personal for you.
IF you can catch jonie, and Can't blow her up, that says more about you than her. jonie has no rps, ep2s, or even TSS. in fact she only has 19.2 resists. lol also jonie used double tap for one day and felt dirty for doing so... it's just toooo dang easy.
anyway... /thread derailed... sorry
hf kill bad guys
Hey, at least you got named.
What do you want to see: Cannon Build? Beam Build? NWS Build? Rommie Build? Here is my NWS Build, my Recluse Build, and my old Kumari Cannon Build (dont really fly her anymore so I might change a little here or there today on her).
NWS Boat: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=nwsbuildwarfrat_2843 (I am using Refracting Tets right now all mk xii, consoles too).
Kumari Cannon: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=kumarirepec_2843
Recluse Build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=pointythings_2843
I haven't finished building out and repping my Rommie Scimi yet. . . .
DPS Channels / League Info (STO Forums)
I am sort of blown away that except for damage type and the bio circuits console (redmatter too), this is my ship O_o
I have a boff I can slot with TBR and GW
Yet (maybe due to pugging) I have never gotten past wave 7.
I am starting to think my problem really is those 26.2 dilithium store consoles im still using. >_> man i dont wanna drop 150 million. ugh. make the spire come out already
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Well, I am using Refracting Tets out of boredom and for the cascade getting a little amped by tet consoles. Disruptors are equally effective.
Red matter is really not popped unless on wave 10.
But, NWS is all about crowd control and knowing when to pop buffs. The bio circuit is awesome on wave 10 as if you use this pattern you pretty much annihilate your wave (just have to do minor cleanup unless you have a Dread to pop):
That pattern should just about kill your whole wave mostly. But, importantly is that you are around 5.75 to 6.25 from transport at start of wave so you are not losing dps to distance. I'm usually 7.25 (except on N) but would NOT recommend this until you REALLY know your flank's wave warp/distance pattern. Stay at 5.5 to 5.75k.
Now here is a VERY important technique in handling warheads.
Most people get eaten alive by them or get killed taking out platforms (We never take out platforms anymore btw). The reason they get clobbered by them is because of buff mismanagement. Most people pop ap, sv, then tt to close together and then die as tt only lasts for 10 secs and it takes longer than 10 secs to kill your warheads. I'm talking about wave 9 warheads as all the others are easy (but practice pattern on them). The proper pattern to eat warheads is:
We fly NWS all the time and our vet teams can sleep through wave 9. In fact we try to handicap ourselves to make it a little interesting, like never popping alpha, or gw, just killing using apo/apb and tbr.
But any help you might want or if you ever want to fly with us, it is never a problem.
Porch
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Plenty of the DPS runs we have been destroying spheres first... they don't kick there epte on until the generator goes... just kill them first.
When I am on the team with one of my torp boats I tell the others to play it normal... my torp boats can one shot all the spheres 9 out of 10 times, as long as I don't TRIBBLE up my timing.
GW -> Plasma HY 3 -> Destabalized -> Breen Cluster -> Plasma Mine DPB3 -> Tric as I pass
Like I say about a 90% success rate on that run. The other 9% of the time... there might be one or two left with almost no hull... and 1% of the time I F up badly and blow myself up. lol
Maybe I need to learn how to be a Damage based Tac again.. Maybe I need to go back to the drawing board...
Maybe...
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku