I think what he's trying to say--and I could be completely wrong--is that STO should deliver more themes and broad concepts that are more spiritually in-line with the show, but not necessarily delivered in the same way. So, for example, he might want to see more story arcs dealing with what it means to be human--or even non-human.
This
/10char
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Picard usually avoided fights, but honestly it went to the point of a character fault sometimes, as he regularly stood by hailing and hailing and not shooting while the ship is getting pounded to rubble by inferior attackers.
He was the only Star Trek captain to back down from a fight, though. Kirk would bluff his way out of a fight he couldn't shoot his way out of, and was just fine with shooting any other time. Sisko almost never shot to disable, arguably even crossing the line in For the Uniform when he destroyed a fleeing ship that posed no immediate threat to send a message to Eddington. Heck, Janeway had a habit of hanging around on a battlefield until somebody shot at her and then saying, "Well, it's our fight now! Fire twelve of our five remaining torpedoes!" And Archer, as incompetent as he usually was, pioneered the technobabble victory and bluffing one's way out of an unwinnable fight.
Talking about Picard always gives me a bit of a headache, because almost everything unique about TNG - families and civilians aboard, the excessive avoidance of violence, etc - was disliked by fans when it started, for being too much of a departure from what we know Starfleet was not long before. Now, everything that's remotely like the Starfleet we saw before or after is too much of a departure from the isolated example we saw in TNG.
Yeah, the idea that the Federation is a bunch of pacifists is absurd. Kirk didn't make up General Order 24. The spirit of the order could be summed up as: "If a hostile race is actively trying to kill Federation citizens, put them out of our misery."
So the idea that the Federation wouldn't shoot to kill, IN A WAR, is absolutely absurd....
Looking at the new concept art I WIN! Even though the Galaxy class looks small against that double tower loop thing, just seeing that much curvature in the foundations of the structures in the distance is WRONG. You wouldnt notice it start curving at all from where you are. They basically just sized their Dyson Sphere not much bigger than, and maybe smaller than our sun. Cryptic scaling at its finest :rolleyes:
give it up....trying to prove an argument by using concept art as a claim exhibit is as stupid as facing off a against a herd of hippos with a wiffle bat.
looks to me you're just trying to be a annoying pain now because your whole argument ploy was shot down exponentially a couple pages back.
arguing for arguments sake does not either convey wit or intelligence.
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Concept art, is to show a concept. In this case, it is intended to be clear that this is a Dyson Sphere.
What we do in game is guided by concept art, but not ruled by it.
Concept art, is to show a concept. In this case, it is intended to be clear that this is a Dyson Sphere.
What we do in game is guided by concept art, but not ruled by it.
I think part of the problem is that concept art is often used as advertising material. There's a certain level of expectation that comes with advertisements, where it's warranted or not. In this case, showing off the concept art in the screenshot gallery will lead some people to believe that this is what we're getting.
Also, the detractors seem to be missing a very key point: the Dyson Sphere as depicted in Trek was incredibly too small if it was to have indeed surrounded a star. You wouldn't be able to perceive the curvature at all, unless you were an astronomical (a few orbits) distance away. If they're complaining about the curvature of STO's sphere, they should also be complaining about Trek's sphere (and not using it as a definitive example).
really ? you would believe we are getting a 'drawing' ?????
....that is clearly labeled as "concept art" ?
I can't tell if you're asking a serious question or not, so I'll answer anyway. Yes and no. There are plenty of people who believe that the images depicted in concept art represent exactly what will be seen in the live game. Not a drawing (obviously), but what the drawing depicts.
I think part of the problem is that concept art is often used as advertising material. There's a certain level of expectation that comes with advertisements, where it's warranted or not.
If you believe that things should look the way they do in advertisements, then you should shut yourself away from all media for the rest of your life.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
....There are plenty of people who believe that the images depicted in concept art represent exactly what will be seen in the live game.......
and whos fault is this exactly ?
and that is serious too.
you are arguing that a 'drawing' that is clearly labeled as 'concept art' can be interpreted as a live depiction ? you do realize this, yes ?
where is the breakdown of communication there ?
_______________________
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
If you believe that things should look the way they do in advertisements, then you should shut yourself away from all media for the rest of your life.
But people do. You can be as coy and holy-than-thou as you like, but there are plenty of people out there who fall for these things. Let's be honest: that's exactly what PR people and advertisers want.
2 million km radius? That's impossible. The star was clearly stated to be G, so to maintain a safe environment, you'd have to be 125 million to 200 million km away from the star.
Also, to retain the air, the mass and spin of the sphere itself would be enough. The mass would be a hell of a lot more than the sun.
If it was 2 million, then that was not a real star. Red dwarfs couldn't do it, but to be that small, that small, the heat and light given off... wouldn't make it viable. Let's say it's a brown dwarf, smallest possible, that means it needs to be 15 times bigger than Jupiter. 15 times 142k.. comes up at just over 2 million.
and that is serious too.
you are arguing that a 'drawing' that is clearly labeled as 'concept art' can be interpreted as a live depiction ? you do realize this, yes ?
where is the breakdown of communication there ?
I'm not arguing anything. I'm providing an explanation for why people frequently confuse concept art for reality. You do realize the difference, yes? I will grant that it's subtle.
There is no breakdown of communication: The PR people and advertisers know that concept art is exciting. That's why they show it. If a few people rant that the game doesn't look exactly like what was conceived, it's a small price to pay for the hype generated by concept art.
But people do. You can be as coy and holy-than-thou as you like, but there are plenty of people out there who fall for these things. Let's be honest: that's exactly what PR people and advertisers want.
And if you fall for these things, then you have much more serious problems than an MMO. I refer you to Dr. P.T. Barnum.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Do you think comments like these help or otherwise encourage discussion at all?
Do you think yours do? You are, in essence, complaining that advertising and capitalism don't work the way you think they should.
Get back to me when you've fixed it.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Do you think yours do? You are, in essence, complaining that advertising and capitalism don't work the way you think they should.
Get back to me when you've fixed it.
Again, I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating an objective opinion. It is true that people take these things seriously. It is true that some PR firms want that to be the case because it generates both excitement and buzz.
If you think I'm arguing a point (which I am not) and you disagree with that point, please share with the class where you disagree and why.
you people are ruining a perfectly good discussion by nitpicking over personalities
It may be a little tinfoil-hat of me, but sometimes I wonder if that's the purpose of some of these posts. Are there people out there who intentionally try to derail threads they disagree with?
Again, I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating an objective opinion. It is true that people take these things seriously.
It is also true that some people think the world is flat. I suppose that they are upset about the planetary representations in STO and we should devote a thread to that as well.
It is true that some PR firms want that to be the case because it generates both excitement and buzz.
PR firms want to create excitement and buzz, that much is true. You are asserting that they want people to be misled, which is just baseless assertion. I assure you, PR firms don't care why people are excited, just so long as they are - they have no inherent desire for people to be idiots.
If you think I'm arguing a point (which I am not) and you disagree with that point, please share with the class where you disagree and why.
The problem is that you think that this is a problem with the PR firm and not the problem with the people.
I hold the apparently radical opinion (to you, at least) that people have some responsibility for not being credulous fools.
Class dismissed.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
It is also true that some people think the world is flat. I suppose that they are upset about the planetary representations in STO and we should devote a thread to that as well.
PR firms want to create excitement and buzz, that much is true. You are asserting that they want people to be misled, which is just baseless assertion. I assure you, PR firms don't care why people are excited, just so long as they are - they have no inherent desire for people to be idiots.
The problem is that you think that this is a problem with the PR firm and not the problem with the people.
I hold the apparently radical opinion (to you, at least) that people have some responsibility for not being credulous fools.
Class dismissed.
/raises hand at the bell
I object to your "radical opinion" that fools are capable of understanding or changing the fact that they're fools. And in objecting to that opinion, I propose that because they're incapable of understanding or changing their circumstances, there are people out there who want to and do, in fact, exploit them.
2 million km radius? That's impossible. The star was clearly stated to be G, so to maintain a safe environment, you'd have to be 125 million to 200 million km away from the star.
Also, to retain the air, the mass and spin of the sphere itself would be enough. The mass would be a hell of a lot more than the sun.
If it was 2 million, then that was not a real star. Red dwarfs couldn't do it, but to be that small, that small, the heat and light given off... wouldn't make it viable. Let's say it's a brown dwarf, smallest possible, that means it needs to be 15 times bigger than Jupiter. 15 times 142k.. comes up at just over 2 million.
15 times the mass of Jupiter. Your figure for the diameter of a brown dwarf is 35% larger in diameter than the sun, roughly the size of Beta Pictoris, which has a 1.75 solar masses.
Brown dwarves are denser than gas giant planets. The one we have the best measurement on is 22 Jupiter masses, but is 1.01+/-0.007 Jupiter radii. The upper bound for a brown dwarf's radius is about 1.2 Jupiter radii, or a diameter of ~165,00 km. Any larger and it will ignite into a red dwarf. A red dwarf of this size will have 100 Jupiter masses, and will have a goldilocks distance of between 2 and 6 million km, depending on variability, possibly increasing to as much as 8 million during flares (red dwarves are crazy variable).
fine, but Data clearly states it to be a G star, so it could be anywhere from 1 million to 1.5, on average. It could be bigger. If it was a G star, and it had a 2 million kilometre radius (the sphere), that's pretty damn close to the surface of the sun eh?
fine, but Data clearly states it to be a G star, so it could be anywhere from 1 million to 1.5, on average. It could be bigger. If it was a G star, and it had a 2 million kilometre radius (the sphere), that's pretty damn close to the surface of the sun eh?
I'd have to rewatch the episode, but Memory Alpha quotes Data as saying the sphere's radius is 200 million km, not 2 million.
that's what I thought he said, but someone said 2 million, in relics. They may have misquoted. I'm just pointing out that a G star would have an average of 200 million km radius sphere.
I object to your "radical opinion" that fools are capable of understanding or changing the fact that they're fools. And in objecting to that opinion, I propose that because they're incapable of understanding or changing their circumstances, there are people out there who want to and do, in fact, exploit them.
Thanks for proving my point. Apparently you can't understand the simple fact that my 'radical opinion' is that people are to some degree responsible for themselves, and instead are still fixated on whether fools can be changed or not. A fool doesn't need to be able to change himself to be responsible for himself.
Q.E.D.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Comments
This
/10char
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
So the idea that the Federation wouldn't shoot to kill, IN A WAR, is absolutely absurd....
My character Tsin'xing
http://sto.perfectworld.com/media/screenshots
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
looks to me you're just trying to be a annoying pain now because your whole argument ploy was shot down exponentially a couple pages back.
arguing for arguments sake does not either convey wit or intelligence.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
Concept art, is to show a concept. In this case, it is intended to be clear that this is a Dyson Sphere.
What we do in game is guided by concept art, but not ruled by it.
I think part of the problem is that concept art is often used as advertising material. There's a certain level of expectation that comes with advertisements, where it's warranted or not. In this case, showing off the concept art in the screenshot gallery will lead some people to believe that this is what we're getting.
Also, the detractors seem to be missing a very key point: the Dyson Sphere as depicted in Trek was incredibly too small if it was to have indeed surrounded a star. You wouldn't be able to perceive the curvature at all, unless you were an astronomical (a few orbits) distance away. If they're complaining about the curvature of STO's sphere, they should also be complaining about Trek's sphere (and not using it as a definitive example).
really ? you would believe we are getting a 'drawing' ?????
....that is clearly labeled as "concept art" ?
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
I can't tell if you're asking a serious question or not, so I'll answer anyway. Yes and no. There are plenty of people who believe that the images depicted in concept art represent exactly what will be seen in the live game. Not a drawing (obviously), but what the drawing depicts.
If you believe that things should look the way they do in advertisements, then you should shut yourself away from all media for the rest of your life.
and whos fault is this exactly ?
and that is serious too.
you are arguing that a 'drawing' that is clearly labeled as 'concept art' can be interpreted as a live depiction ? you do realize this, yes ?
where is the breakdown of communication there ?
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
But people do. You can be as coy and holy-than-thou as you like, but there are plenty of people out there who fall for these things. Let's be honest: that's exactly what PR people and advertisers want.
Also, to retain the air, the mass and spin of the sphere itself would be enough. The mass would be a hell of a lot more than the sun.
If it was 2 million, then that was not a real star. Red dwarfs couldn't do it, but to be that small, that small, the heat and light given off... wouldn't make it viable. Let's say it's a brown dwarf, smallest possible, that means it needs to be 15 times bigger than Jupiter. 15 times 142k.. comes up at just over 2 million.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm providing an explanation for why people frequently confuse concept art for reality. You do realize the difference, yes? I will grant that it's subtle.
There is no breakdown of communication: The PR people and advertisers know that concept art is exciting. That's why they show it. If a few people rant that the game doesn't look exactly like what was conceived, it's a small price to pay for the hype generated by concept art.
And if you fall for these things, then you have much more serious problems than an MMO. I refer you to Dr. P.T. Barnum.
EDIT: Nevermind.
Do you think yours do? You are, in essence, complaining that advertising and capitalism don't work the way you think they should.
Get back to me when you've fixed it.
Again, I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating an objective opinion. It is true that people take these things seriously. It is true that some PR firms want that to be the case because it generates both excitement and buzz.
If you think I'm arguing a point (which I am not) and you disagree with that point, please share with the class where you disagree and why.
It may be a little tinfoil-hat of me, but sometimes I wonder if that's the purpose of some of these posts. Are there people out there who intentionally try to derail threads they disagree with?
It is also true that some people think the world is flat. I suppose that they are upset about the planetary representations in STO and we should devote a thread to that as well.
PR firms want to create excitement and buzz, that much is true. You are asserting that they want people to be misled, which is just baseless assertion. I assure you, PR firms don't care why people are excited, just so long as they are - they have no inherent desire for people to be idiots.
The problem is that you think that this is a problem with the PR firm and not the problem with the people.
I hold the apparently radical opinion (to you, at least) that people have some responsibility for not being credulous fools.
Class dismissed.
/raises hand at the bell
I object to your "radical opinion" that fools are capable of understanding or changing the fact that they're fools. And in objecting to that opinion, I propose that because they're incapable of understanding or changing their circumstances, there are people out there who want to and do, in fact, exploit them.
this thread devolved into = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
15 times the mass of Jupiter. Your figure for the diameter of a brown dwarf is 35% larger in diameter than the sun, roughly the size of Beta Pictoris, which has a 1.75 solar masses.
Brown dwarves are denser than gas giant planets. The one we have the best measurement on is 22 Jupiter masses, but is 1.01+/-0.007 Jupiter radii. The upper bound for a brown dwarf's radius is about 1.2 Jupiter radii, or a diameter of ~165,00 km. Any larger and it will ignite into a red dwarf. A red dwarf of this size will have 100 Jupiter masses, and will have a goldilocks distance of between 2 and 6 million km, depending on variability, possibly increasing to as much as 8 million during flares (red dwarves are crazy variable).
Thought the sun was 13 million, not 1.3, oops.
fine, but Data clearly states it to be a G star, so it could be anywhere from 1 million to 1.5, on average. It could be bigger. If it was a G star, and it had a 2 million kilometre radius (the sphere), that's pretty damn close to the surface of the sun eh?
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
I'd have to rewatch the episode, but Memory Alpha quotes Data as saying the sphere's radius is 200 million km, not 2 million.
Thanks for proving my point. Apparently you can't understand the simple fact that my 'radical opinion' is that people are to some degree responsible for themselves, and instead are still fixated on whether fools can be changed or not. A fool doesn't need to be able to change himself to be responsible for himself.
Q.E.D.