If you believe that things should look the way they do in advertisements, then you should shut yourself away from all media for the rest of your life
You're confusing concept art with actual advertisement. Concept art is not advertisement and advertisement is not concept art.
If you are advertising a car, it had better be as advertised when the customer buys it, or they'll turn around and sue you for false advertisement. That is not the case with concept art, because its not used to sell anything and is not a form of advertisement
I'm not arguing anything. I'm providing an explanation for why people frequently confuse concept art for reality
I have never seen nor heard of anyone ever having done that. Concept art is neither advertising, nor is it intended to be such
There is no breakdown of communication: The PR people and advertisers know that concept art is exciting. That's why they show it. If a few people rant that the game doesn't look exactly like what was conceived, it's a small price to pay for the hype generated by concept art.
Advertisers do not use concept art for advertisement, because it is not advertisement. Showing their concept art is not an advertisement, it is showing their ideas in the form of concept art. Do you even know what the purpose of concept art is?
Thanks for proving my point. Apparently you can't understand the simple fact that my 'radical opinion' is that people are to some degree responsible for themselves, and instead are still fixated on whether fools can be changed or not. A fool doesn't need to be able to change himself to be responsible for himself.
Q.E.D.
You completely missed the point and therefore the mark.
If someone is a fool and is the kind of person to think, "Gee, this concept art is amazing. I can't wait to see the exact same thing in the game," they're obviously not the sort of people with which you're going to be able to rationalize. And since you can't rationalize with these people or make them aware of their foolishness, you can't possibly hold them responsible for themselves.
Let's break it down since there's still some confusion:
Taco takes issue with people viewing concept art as literal predictions of in-game content. PG then comes along and says, "Hey, if you're gonna use concept art as advertising material, you have to be prepared for some of these people to take it as literal predictions of in-game content." To which a couple of posters responded to PG with, "Oh my gosh! Those people are just stupid and therefore they should just realize they're stupid." Whereupon I replied that, "No, you can't get a fool to realize they're a fool--so maybe you shouldn't provide them material with which to be foolish."
You simply disagree with that premise and I disagree with your reasons for doing so. But one very important point must be made: I still agree with the premise of Taco's post that people shouldn't consider concept art to be a final product, I'm just not optimistic enough to believe that everyone will do so.
You're confusing concept art with actual advertisement. Concept art is not advertisement and advertisement is not concept art.
If you are advertising a car, it had better be as advertised when the customer buys it, or they'll turn around and sue you for false advertisement. That is not the case with concept art, because its not used to sell anything and is not a form of advertisement
I have never seen nor heard of anyone ever having done that. Concept art is neither advertising, nor is it intended to be such
Advertisers do not use concept art for advertisement, because it is not advertisement. Showing their concept art is not an advertisement, it is showing their ideas in the form of concept art. Do you even know what the purpose of concept art is?
So here's a question then, just so I understand where you're coming from: Why do they show off concept art?
Note: I'm not asking you what is the inherent purpose of concept art. I'm asking why it gets displayed publicly.
So here's a question then, just so I understand where you're coming from: Why do they show off concept art?
Note: I'm not asking you what is the inherent purpose of concept art. I'm asking why it gets displayed publicly.
So that you get a rough idea of what's coming several months down the road. There are probably thousands of STO fans who have no idea what a Dyson Sphere is, as they're not into science and they never saw Relics. As such giving them a rough idea is beneficial. When the season gets closer we will be bombarded with Dev Blogs that give us a better understanding of the actual content.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
fine, but Data clearly states it to be a G star, so it could be anywhere from 1 million to 1.5, on average. It could be bigger. If it was a G star, and it had a 2 million kilometre radius (the sphere), that's pretty damn close to the surface of the sun eh?
Why does the Dyson Sphere coming in Season 8 have to do anything with the Dyson Sphere in TNG? So it could be a blue dwarf or red giant for all we know. A Dyson Sphere is merely a structure that contains a star in the middle and aliens populated the inner surface of the sphere at one time or were meant to. There could be dozens of alien races in the Milky Way Galaxy that had the capability to create a Dyson Sphere not just one race. Until the devs say that the Dyson Sphere in Season 8 is the Dyson Sphere in TNG, then it is just speculation just like it is just speculation that they are two different spheres.
After all, there could be hundreds of Dyson Spheres around since they block all light coming from a star and a race advanced enough to build a Dyson Sphere is advanced enough to hide it. There could be a cloaked Dyson Sphere 2 light years away from Sol and the Federation would have no clue about it unless a spacecraft smashed into it, but that could be prevented by the cloaked Dyson Sphere using a Phase Cloak instead of a regular cloak.
So that you get a rough idea of what's coming several months down the road. There are probably thousands of STO fans who have no idea what a Dyson Sphere is, as they're not into science and they never saw Relics. As such giving them a rough idea is beneficial. When the season gets closer we will be bombarded with Dev Blogs that give us a better understanding of the actual content.
Then my question would be: If they're showing off concept art to give people an impression of what's to come, how could a developer possibly get exasperated when some players inevitably realize--sometimes with anger or disappointment--that those images don't represent actuality?
Looking at the new concept art I WIN! Even though the Galaxy class looks small against that double tower loop thing, just seeing that much curvature in the foundations of the structures in the distance is WRONG. You wouldnt notice it start curving at all from where you are. They basically just sized their Dyson Sphere not much bigger than, and maybe smaller than our sun. Cryptic scaling at its finest :rolleyes:
3 of the screenshots show no curve at all, the only one that does if the 3 image composite. And its concept art. If this is winning I'd hate to see what it looks like when you lose.
Then my question would be: If they're showing off concept art to give people an impression of what's to come, how could a developer possibly get exasperated when some players inevitably realize--sometimes with anger or disappointment--that those images don't represent actuality?
If you're asking my why different people get emotional over different things in different ways, sorry Mr. Spock, I can't answer that. Each individual's emotional tolerance level is different.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
If you're asking my why different people get emotional over different things in different ways, sorry Mr. Spock, I can't answer that. Each individual's emotional tolerance level is different.
Exactly my point. Taco has to realize that if Bran is posting all of this concept art without glaring warnings that it doesn't necessarily represent actual in-game content, he can't be disappointed or exasperated when some people do see these images as promised content.
Edit to add: Not everyone knows the purpose or meaning of concept art, and it's very silly to expect otherwise and then hold those people accountable for their mistake.
Exactly my point. Taco has to realize that if Bran is posting all of this concept art without glaring warnings that it doesn't necessarily represent actual in-game content, he can't be disappointed or exasperated when some people do see these images as promised content.
Edit to add: Not everyone knows the purpose or meaning of concept art, and it's very silly to expect otherwise and then hold those people accountable for their mistake.
Anyone can be exasperated or disappointed for any number of reasons. Cryptic's STO team isn't 1 entity. It's 50 individuals with different ideas, ideologies, and tolerance levels.
There were probably plenty of Vulcans who thought Spock was too emotional.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Anyone can be exasperated or disappointed for any number of reasons. Cryptic's STO team isn't 1 entity. It's 50 individuals with different ideas, ideologies, and tolerance levels.
There were probably plenty of Vulcans who thought Spock was too emotional.
I've been involved in gaming for 14 years. I'm well aware that concept art doesn't generally match the finished product. I'm also aware that game-play trailers seldom look like actual game-play. I also accept that other players are fairly new to gaming and so don't understand those things. When these things are encountered I generally try to explain them to the uninitiated and leave it at that.
The people who work for Cryptic have a different investments into the project. As an Environmental Artist Taco has been working on most of these maps so it's easier for him to have a bigger emotional investment into what's being said and he will react accordingly. I don't take it as being anything beyond that.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I've been involved in gaming for 14 years. I'm well aware that concept art doesn't generally match the finished product. I'm also aware that game-play trailers seldom look like actual game-play. I also accept that other players are fairly new to gaming and so don't understand those things. When these things are encountered I generally try to explain them to the uninitiated and leave it at that.
The people who work for Cryptic have a different investments into the project. As an Environmental Artist Taco has been working on most of these maps so it's easier for him to have a bigger emotional investment into what's being said and he will react accordingly. I don't take it as being anything beyond that.
Concept art, is to show a concept. In this case, it is intended to be clear that this is a Dyson Sphere.
What we do in game is guided by concept art, but not ruled by it.
Yes, I know its just concept art. But it tells me your environment artists are incorrectly assuming they need to show curvature in the small space map boxes we play in. So stop acting like I just didnt catch you all red handed on that point.
My bickering/whinning over accurate Dyson Sphere scaling is actually making your artists jobs EASIER since realistically they can make FLAT surfaces. IF I were in charge, and wanted to be accurate, Id know that there should be no visible curve in the small space maps my game provides. I would commission THREE maps. Since this is a Tall Ship game, and I dont allow my players to do a controlled barrel roll in game, Id imply a Sphere with 3 maps that have the ground surface attached to 3 different space map walls.
Map 1: Surface is on map floor, ship is upright to it, sun is center of roof wall, every other wall is a faint yellowish gray.
Map 2: Surface is hanging on side wall, sun is on opposite wall
Map 3: surface hangs from roof, sun on floor wall.
The sector has you flying to three different locations in the sphere to fight, and when the surface is on 3 different walls it adds up to making the player think he has rotated his ship 90 degrees on the side wall map and inverted the ship to attack the surface that now appears above him.
IF you were trying to be realistic. And this would still be true even for the smallest star and the circumference of a Mercury orbit.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
PR uses what they want. Since we don't have a finished product for them to show off, they're going to show off what they can, which, at the moment is concept art.
Scale is absolutely a concern with in the artistic style of this game. However, attempting to make a map work for both a 20' shuttlecraft, and a 200,000,000 Km super planetary sphere, is tricky at best, and impossible at worst. As such, everything we do is a series of compromises. I'm sorry that it doesn't always work out to your satisfaction, we also wish it worked better in many cases, but in the end, this is a game, and whether or not it's fun is more important than whether or not it's scientifically accurate.
PR uses what they want. Since we don't have a finished product for them to show off, they're going to show off what they can, which, at the moment is concept art.
Scale is absolutely a concern with in the artistic style of this game. However, attempting to make a map work for both a 20' shuttlecraft, and a 200,000,000 Km super planetary sphere, is tricky at best, and impossible at worst. As such, everything we do is a series of compromises. I'm sorry that it doesn't always work out to your satisfaction, we also wish it worked better in many cases, but in the end, this is a game, and whether or not it's fun is more important than whether or not it's scientifically accurate.
I think everyone realizes that you can't do accurate scale in a space game. Like the Book says, "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is."
Or maybe that should be "I hope everyone realizes."
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
PR uses what they want. Since we don't have a finished product for them to show off, they're going to show off what they can, which, at the moment is concept art.
Scale is absolutely a concern with in the artistic style of this game. However, attempting to make a map work for both a 20' shuttlecraft, and a 200,000,000 Km super planetary sphere, is tricky at best, and impossible at worst. As such, everything we do is a series of compromises. I'm sorry that it doesn't always work out to your satisfaction, we also wish it worked better in many cases, but in the end, this is a game, and whether or not it's fun is more important than whether or not it's scientifically accurate.
If PR uses what they can and what they can use is concept art, then you need to do a better job of explaining to people the purpose of concept art. It's not being communicated well--as evidenced by this thread and many others, and by your own irritation.
Let me rephrase: "Realistic scale is not a concern" or "consistency of scale is not a concern" might have been better observations. I don't know how it can be when you readily admit you can't always achieve it (Why concern yourself with something you can't achieve?).
This was a defense of your position anyway--attempting to highlight how scale is already inconsistent across the game and so people shouldn't be overly-concerning themselves with it.
If PR uses what they can and what they can use is concept art, then you need to do a better job of explaining to people the purpose of concept art. It's not being communicated well--as evidenced by this thread and many others, and by your own irritation.
Let me rephrase: "Realistic scale is not a concern" or "consistency of scale is not a concern" might have been better observations. I don't know how it can be when you readily admit you can't always achieve it (Why concern yourself with something you can't achieve?).
This was a defense of your position anyway--attempting to highlight how scale is already inconsistent across the game and so people shouldn't be overly-concerning themselves with it.
The phrase "not representative of final product" is implicit with concept art.
PR uses what they want. Since we don't have a finished product for them to show off, they're going to show off what they can, which, at the moment is concept art.
Scale is absolutely a concern with in the artistic style of this game. However, attempting to make a map work for both a 20' shuttlecraft, and a 200,000,000 Km super planetary sphere, is tricky at best, and impossible at worst. As such, everything we do is a series of compromises. I'm sorry that it doesn't always work out to your satisfaction, we also wish it worked better in many cases, but in the end, this is a game, and whether or not it's fun is more important than whether or not it's scientifically accurate.
True. I know its hard. But making it to scale makes it easier too when you think about it the way I just did. Id make a 4th map then JUST for the shuttle missions. Pretend the sphere has a Matterhorn battle mountain that shuttles can fly around the exterior and fight and fly INTO for tighter flight combat.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
The phrase "not representative of final product" is implicit with concept art.
It's clearly not implicit or we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? And that's my point: Many gamers don't understand the purpose or intent of concept art and unless you communicate that purpose clearly, it seems silly to me to get huffy about people making the mistake.
If all the team can provide is concept art, then PR should wait for screenshots and stick to advertising final images or at the very least concept art that the team can confidently say is highly representative of what they're working on. If that's not doable, then I don't understand Taco's irritation since he's obviously aware that people don't always understand the difference.
EDIT: An analogy might be van Gogh inviting Phidias to an exhibition of his work, and then being upset that Phidias doesn't understand his point of view and misinterprets his work.
can't you guys just appreciate that fact that they are working on some sweet new content, and just wanted to show you something cool that is coming out of the initial stages of the process ?
it is what it is....nothing more.
_______________________
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can't you guys just appreciate that fact that they are working on some sweet new content, and just wanted to show you something cool that is coming out of the initial stages of the process ?
it is what it is....nothing more.
They can't and that's exactly my point! Not everyone can just appreciate concept art for concept art's sake. There are too many people out there who simply don't understand it, so we shouldn't get upset at them when they don't!
Comments
You're confusing concept art with actual advertisement. Concept art is not advertisement and advertisement is not concept art.
If you are advertising a car, it had better be as advertised when the customer buys it, or they'll turn around and sue you for false advertisement. That is not the case with concept art, because its not used to sell anything and is not a form of advertisement
I have never seen nor heard of anyone ever having done that. Concept art is neither advertising, nor is it intended to be such
Advertisers do not use concept art for advertisement, because it is not advertisement. Showing their concept art is not an advertisement, it is showing their ideas in the form of concept art. Do you even know what the purpose of concept art is?
You completely missed the point and therefore the mark.
If someone is a fool and is the kind of person to think, "Gee, this concept art is amazing. I can't wait to see the exact same thing in the game," they're obviously not the sort of people with which you're going to be able to rationalize. And since you can't rationalize with these people or make them aware of their foolishness, you can't possibly hold them responsible for themselves.
Let's break it down since there's still some confusion:
Taco takes issue with people viewing concept art as literal predictions of in-game content. PG then comes along and says, "Hey, if you're gonna use concept art as advertising material, you have to be prepared for some of these people to take it as literal predictions of in-game content." To which a couple of posters responded to PG with, "Oh my gosh! Those people are just stupid and therefore they should just realize they're stupid." Whereupon I replied that, "No, you can't get a fool to realize they're a fool--so maybe you shouldn't provide them material with which to be foolish."
You simply disagree with that premise and I disagree with your reasons for doing so. But one very important point must be made: I still agree with the premise of Taco's post that people shouldn't consider concept art to be a final product, I'm just not optimistic enough to believe that everyone will do so.
So here's a question then, just so I understand where you're coming from: Why do they show off concept art?
Note: I'm not asking you what is the inherent purpose of concept art. I'm asking why it gets displayed publicly.
Why does the Dyson Sphere coming in Season 8 have to do anything with the Dyson Sphere in TNG? So it could be a blue dwarf or red giant for all we know. A Dyson Sphere is merely a structure that contains a star in the middle and aliens populated the inner surface of the sphere at one time or were meant to. There could be dozens of alien races in the Milky Way Galaxy that had the capability to create a Dyson Sphere not just one race. Until the devs say that the Dyson Sphere in Season 8 is the Dyson Sphere in TNG, then it is just speculation just like it is just speculation that they are two different spheres.
After all, there could be hundreds of Dyson Spheres around since they block all light coming from a star and a race advanced enough to build a Dyson Sphere is advanced enough to hide it. There could be a cloaked Dyson Sphere 2 light years away from Sol and the Federation would have no clue about it unless a spacecraft smashed into it, but that could be prevented by the cloaked Dyson Sphere using a Phase Cloak instead of a regular cloak.
dude...I owe you an apology. I posted it on the new dyson sphere ( a moment of nerd rage) thread that just popped up.
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Then my question would be: If they're showing off concept art to give people an impression of what's to come, how could a developer possibly get exasperated when some players inevitably realize--sometimes with anger or disappointment--that those images don't represent actuality?
3 of the screenshots show no curve at all, the only one that does if the 3 image composite. And its concept art. If this is winning I'd hate to see what it looks like when you lose.
Not sure what you're apologizing for, so no harm done--whatever it was.
Exactly my point. Taco has to realize that if Bran is posting all of this concept art without glaring warnings that it doesn't necessarily represent actual in-game content, he can't be disappointed or exasperated when some people do see these images as promised content.
Edit to add: Not everyone knows the purpose or meaning of concept art, and it's very silly to expect otherwise and then hold those people accountable for their mistake.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=835141
having to do with " Drawings and concept art" being or not being mistaken for a finished product/content.
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Ah. Case in point. Thanks for sharing that!
There were probably plenty of Vulcans who thought Spock was too emotional.
I take it, then, that you don't disagree.
remember ... you can "bonk" into planets with your ship in this game......
it's not really that big a deal.
..... :cool::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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That is, sadly, a missed point in all of this discussion. Scale is not a concern in the artistic style of this game.
The people who work for Cryptic have a different investments into the project. As an Environmental Artist Taco has been working on most of these maps so it's easier for him to have a bigger emotional investment into what's being said and he will react accordingly. I don't take it as being anything beyond that.
I'm glad we have an understanding.
Yes, I know its just concept art. But it tells me your environment artists are incorrectly assuming they need to show curvature in the small space map boxes we play in. So stop acting like I just didnt catch you all red handed on that point.
My bickering/whinning over accurate Dyson Sphere scaling is actually making your artists jobs EASIER since realistically they can make FLAT surfaces. IF I were in charge, and wanted to be accurate, Id know that there should be no visible curve in the small space maps my game provides. I would commission THREE maps. Since this is a Tall Ship game, and I dont allow my players to do a controlled barrel roll in game, Id imply a Sphere with 3 maps that have the ground surface attached to 3 different space map walls.
Map 1: Surface is on map floor, ship is upright to it, sun is center of roof wall, every other wall is a faint yellowish gray.
Map 2: Surface is hanging on side wall, sun is on opposite wall
Map 3: surface hangs from roof, sun on floor wall.
The sector has you flying to three different locations in the sphere to fight, and when the surface is on 3 different walls it adds up to making the player think he has rotated his ship 90 degrees on the side wall map and inverted the ship to attack the surface that now appears above him.
IF you were trying to be realistic. And this would still be true even for the smallest star and the circumference of a Mercury orbit.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
/facepalm.
are you really that dumb to be poking a Cryptic dev in the chest over a point that you are clearly in the wrong bout at this point ?.
not too smart at all .....
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Scale is absolutely a concern with in the artistic style of this game. However, attempting to make a map work for both a 20' shuttlecraft, and a 200,000,000 Km super planetary sphere, is tricky at best, and impossible at worst. As such, everything we do is a series of compromises. I'm sorry that it doesn't always work out to your satisfaction, we also wish it worked better in many cases, but in the end, this is a game, and whether or not it's fun is more important than whether or not it's scientifically accurate.
I think everyone realizes that you can't do accurate scale in a space game. Like the Book says, "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is."
Or maybe that should be "I hope everyone realizes."
If PR uses what they can and what they can use is concept art, then you need to do a better job of explaining to people the purpose of concept art. It's not being communicated well--as evidenced by this thread and many others, and by your own irritation.
Let me rephrase: "Realistic scale is not a concern" or "consistency of scale is not a concern" might have been better observations. I don't know how it can be when you readily admit you can't always achieve it (Why concern yourself with something you can't achieve?).
This was a defense of your position anyway--attempting to highlight how scale is already inconsistent across the game and so people shouldn't be overly-concerning themselves with it.
scale seems pretty consistent to me
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True. I know its hard. But making it to scale makes it easier too when you think about it the way I just did. Id make a 4th map then JUST for the shuttle missions. Pretend the sphere has a Matterhorn battle mountain that shuttles can fly around the exterior and fight and fly INTO for tighter flight combat.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
It's clearly not implicit or we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? And that's my point: Many gamers don't understand the purpose or intent of concept art and unless you communicate that purpose clearly, it seems silly to me to get huffy about people making the mistake.
If all the team can provide is concept art, then PR should wait for screenshots and stick to advertising final images or at the very least concept art that the team can confidently say is highly representative of what they're working on. If that's not doable, then I don't understand Taco's irritation since he's obviously aware that people don't always understand the difference.
EDIT: An analogy might be van Gogh inviting Phidias to an exhibition of his work, and then being upset that Phidias doesn't understand his point of view and misinterprets his work.
it is what it is....nothing more.
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They can't and that's exactly my point! Not everyone can just appreciate concept art for concept art's sake. There are too many people out there who simply don't understand it, so we shouldn't get upset at them when they don't!