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I understand now why pvp is dead.

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  • mewimewi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    The grinding is PvE, not PvP.

    Did I ever say it wasn't?

    On another note, did you know... Star Trek Online is an RPG that contains PvP game mechanics inside? Zomg, it also has 3rd Person aspect, guns, and cats. The cat by itself isn't an RPG either, until you make it do something like eat meow mix under the moonlight.


    Good example: Tachy console. Holy TRIBBLE this thing is OP. But thats the story for another thread.

    whoaaaaaaaaaaa
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Territorial control makes no sense for STO. Simple as that...doesn't fit the story. Smaller team/individual play would still face the issue of the new toon vs. veteran toon.

    If the argument is that new players won't compete because they can't compete, then give them room to compete while also giving them something to work toward...

    ...hence, stratification - progression.

    I'll disagree w/that. 1st there are plenty of in game conflicts to use as a pretext for territorial control. Also, there could be fixed options to use as tools that aren't based on stratification.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
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  • captainednacaptainedna Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I like how I get called self-entitled when I just flat out said I ground my TRIBBLE off for what I have.

    Im thinking about the next guy here, not me. I wouldnt wish that nightmare on anyone else that just wanted to pewpew and be decently set up to do so.

    The difference between out of the box and maxed out is too steep, pure and simple.

    Quite frankly its getting stupid, like to the point of I can tell the difference between my ship with gear piece X or Y. No gear should give so much of a difference that you can not only feel it but it makes a huge difference.

    Good example: Tachy console. Holy TRIBBLE this thing is OP. But thats the story for another thread.

    so in your opinion grinding for a purple normal neutronium should not mean anything and the guy who buys a better fleet neutronium from day one is more entitled than you who wasted days from your life to get that purple neutronium.

    I want to see pvp gear better than pve gear .You don't need the best gear in game to kill npcs .If you want the best gear in game play pvp .If you want to buy the best gear from stores with real money than add p2w to the game title.
  • mewimewi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    ...based on stratification.

    Translation: Being better based on work and merit, rather than handout.
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »
    Did I ever say it wasn't?

    On another note, did you know... Star Trek Online is an RPG that contains PvP game mechanics inside? Zomg, it also has 3rd Person aspect, guns, and cats. The cat by itself isn't an RPG either, until you make it do something like eat meow mix under the moonlight.

    I'll be more direct, since you seem to have missed the point. In many if not most RGPs that have PvP, the victor gets spoils at the expense of the loser. That mechanic doesn't exist in this game. It's an important economic choice that doesn't have to be made. Especially, given the steep power curve of new gear/ships/rep bonuses.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »
    Translation: Being better based on work and merit, rather than handout.

    I play games to have fun. I have a job to work. There's nothing merit based about paying for power in a game.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »



    whoaaaaaaaaaaa

    Whoa what? Rylana (my fed tac) has one, Lyzara (my kdf tac) does not.

    They both otherwise are pretty much set up identically (i tend to stick with what works for me), and there is a huge difference between the two ships. The only gear difference would be that, and I find myself always having to take a minute to readjust myself when I switch between them. (the feds turn rate obviously is much higher)

    Its that kind of stark difference one piece of gear can make that really baffles me in this game. And naturally its a lobi store goodie, so extremely hard to obtain unless you have a lot of money to drop.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    I'll disagree w/that. 1st there are plenty of in game conflicts to use as a pretext for territorial control. Also, there could be fixed options to use as tools that aren't based on stratification.

    There's two factions. They're not at war. They're not fighting over anything. How are they going to have territorial control?

    That's the reason that the S8 territorial control is going to be PvE...players...Feds&FedRoms and KDF&KDFRoms fighting the Voth.

    The war exists in STO as much as going back and replaying "Stranded in Space" over and over and over...it's historical - it's replay. Ker'rat? It's replay - it's not now. PvP queues? It's replay - it's not now.

    There's no conflict between players. It's a big reason why the queues should be merged...RvB - let the players participate in wargames against one another to hone their skills to fight the next NPC (complete fail AI, monster farm sitting there waiting to be killed, meh nonsense) that exists in the game.

    When you say fixed options to use as tools? Are you talking about something along the lines of Cryptic created ships that players fly? Stripped of everything...no skill selection, no reputation, no...nada? So basically, they should just make a separate TPS PvP game? Can't see them doing the resources for that...and...honestly, why?

    With stratification, you address the issue of the new player having some room to play - while still allowing folks that have ground out there stuff to do that as well... it's allowing for folks to have cake and pie.
  • mewimewi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    I'll be more direct, since you seem to have missed the point. In many if not most RGPs that have PvP, the victor gets spoils at the expense of the loser. That mechanic doesn't exist in this game. It's an important economic choice that doesn't have to be made. Especially, given the steep power curve of new gear/ships/rep bonuses.

    "The victor gets the spoils" In what mode? nightmare mode in Ragnarok Online that no one plays? Hardcore mode for diablo 2 that no one pvps in? What spoils are you referring too?

    Rewards from the game mechanic for winning that doesn't negate anything from the player that lost?

    What? Tell me.

    Ignoring the fact that this is an RPG, STO isn't an "RPG" because you play it differently... oh RIGHT, whats that key word in RPG? Role... I'm taking on the role of killing another player who has also taken on the role of being my victim. Oh RPG game mechanics? Leveling system? Gear collection? character statistic allocation? But it goes beyond that, since the game has well established character customization, story, plot, and even allows players to personally engage in their own roles.

    Sorry it was too hard to ignore those facts... they scream so loudly.

    So your argument is all based around "Nope IMA separate the rest of the game from PvP from the RPG even though the PvP uses all RPG mechanics and pretend it doesn't exist whilst wasting my time trying to prove it to a veteran RPG player. EEP"

    Ingenious!
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    There's two factions. They're not at war. They're not fighting over anything. How are they going to have territorial control?

    That's the reason that the S8 territorial control is going to be PvE...players...Feds&FedRoms and KDF&KDFRoms fighting the Voth.

    The war exists in STO as much as going back and replaying "Stranded in Space" over and over and over...it's historical - it's replay. Ker'rat? It's replay - it's not now. PvP queues? It's replay - it's not now.

    There's no conflict between players. It's a big reason why the queues should be merged...RvB - let the players participate in wargames against one another to hone their skills to fight the next NPC (complete fail AI, monster farm sitting there waiting to be killed, meh nonsense) that exists in the game.

    When you say fixed options to use as tools? Are you talking about something along the lines of Cryptic created ships that players fly? Stripped of everything...no skill selection, no reputation, no...nada? So basically, they should just make a separate TPS PvP game? Can't see them doing the resources for that...and...honestly, why?

    With stratification, you address the issue of the new player having some room to play - while still allowing folks that have ground out there stuff to do that as well... it's allowing for folks to have cake and pie.

    Part of the back story is the KDF and Feds are at war. There is internal strife w/all 3 factions (granted 1 of the 3 is pushed to ally w/one of the other 2, it's not required). Not sure why you say there's no storyline reason to have it when in fact the Rommy faction storyline is born out of creating a territory for themselves and there are PvE territory defense missions.

    Doffs, Boffs, Captain traits and skill could all be choices as well as ships. Those would all be options or tools to be selected for the task at hand.

    While they're tiered now, there's still fixed limits for them all. If they (cryptic) had gone for specialization in development instead of power creep across the board it really wouldn't be a stretch to do. There's even players attempting to set up player run territorial control systems.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »
    "The victor gets the spoils" In what mode? nightmare mode in Ragnarok Online that no one plays? Hardcore mode for diablo 2 that no one pvps in? What spoils are you referring too?

    Rewards from the game mechanic for winning that doesn't negate anything from the player that lost?

    What? Tell me.

    Ignoring the fact that this is an RPG, STO isn't an "RPG" because you play it differently... oh RIGHT, whats that key word in RPG? Role... I'm taking on the role of killing another player who has also taken on the role of being my victim. Oh RPG game mechanics? Leveling system? Gear collection? character statistic allocation? But it goes beyond that, since the game has well established character customization, story, plot, and even allows players to personally engage in their own roles.

    Sorry it was too hard to ignore those facts... they scream so loudly.

    So your argument is all based around "Nope IMA separate the rest of the game from PvP from the RPG even though the PvP uses all RPG mechanics and pretend it doesn't exist whilst wasting my time trying to prove it to a veteran RPG player. EEP"

    Ingenious!

    What seperated D2 hardcore from the rest was there was only 1 life for a toon. It had nothing to do w/corpse drops and losing gear that could be picked up by another player. It's been a staple of RGP PvP for well over a decade that there are risks involved in losing/dieing in RGP PvPs.

    Like I said at the start RGP PvP. It's not something this game has. You're the one trying to parce them not me.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • mewimewi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    What seperated D2 hardcore from the rest was there was only 1 life for a toon. It had nothing to do w/corpse drops and losing gear that could be picked up by another player. It's been a staple of RGP PvP for well over a decade that there are risks involved in losing/dieing in RGP PvPs.

    A meaningless virtually unplayed staple, so why do you bring it up? Sure you got Eve Online? But what else?, only hardcore fanatics play Eve Online, how does that solve STO's problem? You want to bash the hardcore PvPers out of existence? Still doesn't explain your "spoils" comment though.

    You want a go in, and if you die... you lose everything? PvP?

    Yeah, that will keep em coming!

    p2wsucks wrote: »
    Like I said at the start RGP PvP. It's not something this game has. You're the one trying to parce them not me.

    lol~ I see im rubber your glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you? right, I was the one that started the argument that there was nothing "RPG" about the PVP in the RPG game...

    I completely forgot...

    what... wait a minute!
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  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »
    What am I complaining about except for the person who is mad that Cryptic didnt give them an NPC that had everything in the game for 0 EC?

    Ah, my bad. I was directing it at someone else who keeps posting that pvp is broken and defends. Lingering amongst all the pvp on the forums blurred my vision.

    I accept that pvp is broken, and while I would be interested in pvp, I know I cannot compete unless I leave my first love, the Dreadnought Cruiser, at home. And even if I did, I still will take, effectively, "forever". I've already missed the boat with the BO doff. This is because I'm more focused on herding my 9+ toons through doffs to maintain the dilithium --> zen engine I have running.

    (I'm still a long way from the 160000 zen required by the Legacy of Rom pack, or purchasing every cryptic store ship to exist, or unlocking more slots for my coming Rom alts!)

    I dont think I will have even a flicker of a chance in pvp.


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  • mewimewi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    khayuung wrote: »
    Ah, my bad. I was directing it at someone else who keeps posting that pvp is broken and defends. Lingering amongst all the pvp on the forums blurred my vision.

    I accept that pvp is broken, and while I would be interested in pvp, I know I cannot compete unless I leave my first love, the Dreadnought Cruiser, at home. And even if I did, I still will take, effectively, "forever". I've already missed the boat with the BO doff. This is because I'm more focused on herding my 9+ toons through doffs to maintain the dilithium --> zen engine I have running.

    (I'm still a long way from the 160000 zen required by the Legacy of Rom pack, or purchasing every cryptic store ship to exist, or unlocking more slots for my coming Rom alts!)

    I dont think I will have even a flicker of a chance in pvp.

    On another note, most of these people are trying to create like 20 pvp characters at once, and complain that they feel burnt out afterwards.

    Advice: Focus on one char, it really helps. ADHD style gaming doesn't.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    Part of the back story is the KDF and Feds are at war. There is internal strife w/all 3 factions (granted 1 of the 3 is pushed to ally w/one of the other 2, it's not required). Not sure why you say there's no storyline reason to have it when in fact the Rommy faction storyline is born out of creating a territory for themselves and there are PvE territory defense missions.

    I'm not sure how you didn't follow what I said.

    There's a story taking place in STO.

    At one point in the story, the Feds and KDF are at war. The story progresses. The war no longer exists.

    The introduction of the Romulans did not change that. The early Romulan story is backstory - it's taking place during a certain part of the story to catch up with the rest of the story.

    Let's grab a handful of characters, eh?

    Fed#1 is level 50...they've finished all the episodes.
    Fed#2 is level 34...they're doing Darkness Before the Dawn.
    Fed#3 is level 4...they're doing Stop the Signal.
    KDF#1 is level 21...they're doing Lost City of Paradise.
    KDF#2 is level 47...they're doing Cold Call.
    KDF#3 is level 35...they're doing Badlands.
    Rom#1 is level 7...they're doing Gasko Blues.
    Rom#2 is level 45...they're doing Report to Gamma Orionis.
    Rom#3 is level 11...they're doing The Price of Neutrality.

    All 9 can go to Drozana, drop a Party Amp, and dance like they're off their medication...but chronologically they're at different points in the story.

    Rom#1 - the Roms haven't found Tau Dewa yet.
    KDF#1 - the Roms have found Tau Dewa, but D'tan hasn't hooked up with Obisek yet.
    Fed#1 - that's ancient history to this dude...

    The story has progressed. The Feds and KDF are allies...they're fighting common foes now. S8 and the Voth brings more of that...
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    So outside of a historical territorial control, which wouldn't make sense - wouldn't change anything - because we know where the story has gone since then...comes off as a waste of resources.

    And as you said, an endeavor has been created by players to try to accommodate such a playstyle...though, I haven't seen anything about that in ages.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »
    A meaningless virtually unplayed staple, so why do you bring it up? Sure you got Eve Online? But what else?, only hardcore fanatics play Eve Online, how does that solve STO's problem? You want to bash the hardcore PvPers out of existence? Still doesn't explain your "spoils" comment though.

    You want a go in, and if you die... you lose everything? PvP?

    Yeah, that will keep em coming!




    lol~ I see im rubber your glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you? right, I was the one that started the argument that there was nothing "RPG" about the PVP in the RPG game...

    I completely forgot...

    what... wait a minute!

    Go look up the early MMO or MUDs or actual old RPGs even if you really want to know the answer. You act like you never heard of games like Ever Quest or D&D and death penalties w/looting are some rare novelty. DoTA had actual RGP progression w/more potential gear drop and other penalties, and it's led to one of the most successful PvP spinoffs.

    So you ever going to answer what about STO is RPG PvP in nature or you going to continue to evade the question? Or as a vet RGPer had you never done PvP before?
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »
    Advice: Focus on one char, it really helps. ADHD style gaming doesn't.

    So folks should only roll one character...and...they should suck it up for months on end if they're new?

    You know, that might be where some of the elitist comments made by some may have come into play...

    ...what's wrong with folks either with alts or that are new, having a place to pew without it affecting a place to pew for veteran folks?
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I'm not sure how you didn't follow what I said.

    There's a story taking place in STO.

    At one point in the story, the Feds and KDF are at war. The story progresses. The war no longer exists.

    The introduction of the Romulans did not change that. The early Romulan story is backstory - it's taking place during a certain part of the story to catch up with the rest of the story.

    Let's grab a handful of characters, eh?

    Fed#1 is level 50...they've finished all the episodes.
    Fed#2 is level 34...they're doing Darkness Before the Dawn.
    Fed#3 is level 4...they're doing Stop the Signal.
    KDF#1 is level 21...they're doing Lost City of Paradise.
    KDF#2 is level 47...they're doing Cold Call.
    KDF#3 is level 35...they're doing Badlands.
    Rom#1 is level 7...they're doing Gasko Blues.
    Rom#2 is level 45...they're doing Report to Gamma Orionis.
    Rom#3 is level 11...they're doing The Price of Neutrality.

    All 9 can go to Drozana, drop a Party Amp, and dance like they're off their medication...but chronologically they're at different points in the story.

    Rom#1 - the Roms haven't found Tau Dewa yet.
    KDF#1 - the Roms have found Tau Dewa, but D'tan hasn't hooked up with Obisek yet.
    Fed#1 - that's ancient history to this dude...

    The story has progressed. The Feds and KDF are allies...they're fighting common foes now. S8 and the Voth brings more of that...



    So outside of a historical territorial control, which wouldn't make sense - wouldn't change anything - because we know where the story has gone since then...comes off as a waste of resources.

    And as you said, an endeavor has been created by players to try to accommodate such a playstyle...though, I haven't seen anything about that in ages.

    When did the FED KDF war end? Rommies even have to pick sides. In DS9 storyline mission there are KDF doff missions to spy et al on the Feds and you can shoot Feds iirc on the Bajor mission. This started w/the Borg et al still going on. At best there's a cease of hostilities for specific missions.

    Nothing close to ending the Fed vs KDF, or the internal KDF wars, Fed still have internal section 31/undine issues, Rommies have issues w/pretty much anyone and everyone, at least the story line has shown.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    So folks should only roll one character...and...they should suck it up for months on end if they're new?

    You know, that might be where some of the elitist comments made by some may have come into play...

    ...what's wrong with folks either with alts or that are new, having a place to pew without it affecting a place to pew for veteran folks?

    I like how I know for a fact Mewi was directing that ADHD comment at me, but failed to realize I have only thus far geared up one toon to the point I think its ready for prime time.

    I might have 6 toons in my sig (note one is still a Lt, lol), but only one of them is "done"

    id be down for a queue change that had the following:

    Space - Standard (Common or Uncommon gear only)
    Space - Hardcore (Any gear permitted)

    Where in standard mode you couldnt use superduper special consoles or anything higher than green, but in hardcore all bets are off.

    Actually, just making the cutoff between green and blue would account for all of the consoles and whatever as well.

    Id bet you the Standard queue would be very popular.
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  • mewimewi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    Go look up the early MMO or MUDs or actual old RPGs even if you really want to know the answer. You act like you never heard of games like Ever Quest or D&D and death penalties w/looting are some rare novelty. DoTA had actual RGP progression w/more potential gear drop and other penalties, and it's led to one of the most successful PvP spinoffs.

    So you ever going to answer what about STO is RPG PvP in nature or you going to continue to evade the question? Or as a vet RGPer had you never done PvP before?

    Why do you even bring up penalties? You want STO PvP to have penalties? Does it really help PvP in STO? You avoid my questions. You want elitism to the max? Bug exploitation everywhere? That is what it would be asking for.

    Also, the base of this discussion has nothing to do with your recent strawman construction. At best you are just avoiding the absolute failure of your ability to realize your own faults in this discussion.

    But!

    Lets go on that strawman brick road, *deedle leee deee* League of Legends is a strategy game that contains RPG elements. DoTA and ******** 3 customized DoTA maps are also strategy games that contain RPG elements. League of Legends, is not an RPG, and Strategy is a genre. Your analogy is flawed.

    Woosh

    whoa wait STO is a role playing game that contains PvP mechanics that complement the RPG. The PvP itself contains STO's RPG elements. STO isn't an "RPG PVP" because PVP isn't a genre... it is a mechanic............. ( omg really mewi? whoa... I totally did not know that, you know all, praise be it mewi ) .............implemented within a genre that uses well established genre elements.

    IE: Its an RPG genre with Pvp mechanics
    not PvP Genre with RPG mechanics

    see we are getting somewhere now!

    Arguing semantics aside. I don't get the reasoning behind your entire argument, should I think about it further!? I certainly wouldn't want to do it, nope nope, not me!

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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    When did the FED KDF war end? Rommies even have to pick sides. In DS9 storyline mission there are KDF doff missions to spy et al on the Feds and you can shoot Feds iirc on the Bajor mission. This started w/the Borg et al still going on. At best there's a cease of hostilities for specific missions.

    Nothing close to ending the Fed vs KDF, or the internal KDF wars, Fed still have internal section 31/undine issues, Rommies have issues w/pretty much anyone and everyone, at least the story line has shown.

    DOFF missions are outside of the story missions. Those come up whether you've done a single episode or not. Those come up if you've done all the episodes. They're independent.

    The Romulans having to pick a side...doesn't mean anything. Somebody goes to vote in the States, they're generally registering as Republican or Democrat - they've picked sides, but that doesn't mean they're at war.

    Just because folks are not shooting at each other doesn't mean they won't spy on each other either...many governments spy on their citizens...doesn't mean they're at war.

    The Fed/KDF ceasefire/working together started long before the Borg STFs. Whether it's a simple case of them not shooting at each other or sitting down at a table discussing a common enemy...it's been over. The one mission that is out of place for the KDF and Romulans is Skirmish.

    Look at where it takes place for the Feds, eh? Then look at the missions that come after it. It's out of order for the KDF and Romulans, an "enemy" mission after folks are no longer enemies.

    For Cryptic to make such an investment on a potential territory system - they'd need evidence of a substantial return on the investment. That's not there. The PvP playerbase is pretty damn small. Cryptic's not helping it grow outside of some lukewarm support of Bootcamp. Some players are trying to do things to make it grow...but as evidenced in this thread and pretty much anywhere you go near PvP...so many players aren't.

    So why not try to make the PvP playerbase grow with realistic expectations...keep building it...show Cryptic that there is the support from more than just the few dozen folks that post over and over again asking for stuff?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I don't want PvE mixed in my serious PvP... period.

    I like GW2... in that I can pvp and it doesn't matter if I spent 1000 hours in PvE first to equip some uber raid gear.... cause it doesn't work in PVP.

    I can not play that game for a month and load up for a night of great PvP fun... cause no mater what new toys got released in the 4 weeks I was gone... it really don't make no difference to my pvp experience. (open world PvP sure... in that case you need to keep up and thats fine... but serious team based pvp ... gear is removed from the system).

    I have yet to hear a real argument as to why 100s of hours of PvE are required to setup a maxed out PvP toon ? Why would any self respecting "PvP' lover even try to defend that sillyness... the only reason that comes to mind is this. You have your stuffz and they make beating up on the new kids easy which makes you feel good about the 100s of hours you have wasted doing PvE. :)

    I am not trolling ... and I am not wining cause I have junk gear. No one that knows me in game thinks I am lacking anything... I am sitting on close to a billion EC almost 20 toons at this point most with full or darn close to full reps... multiple lockbox and fleet ships... if I need or what anything in game I buy it with in game currency. I don't bring it up for myself... I started the TD channel to try and make PvP fun for everyone. I have no fun beating on people. Not to brag but for the most part I have played this game so much I could load up white gear and beat or at least compete with most people in the game... I am not feeling like I should have PvE gear handed to me.

    I simply don't feel that any of us should be strapped with 4 years of grinded PvE gear in PvP. It discourages new players from taking up our favorite part of the game. I don't blame them either... if those of you with all the gear like myself don't agree with me... go role a F2P toon and don't help it go into end game pvp with a mirror or one of the end game D ships with gear you could swing with EC you earned leveling there... play 10 matches in the que and then explain to me how you feel afterwards... imagine you where a new player would you have gotten through all 10 ? I doubt it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    DOFF missions are outside of the story missions. Those come up whether you've done a single episode or not. Those come up if you've done all the episodes. They're independent.

    The Romulans having to pick a side...doesn't mean anything. Somebody goes to vote in the States, they're generally registering as Republican or Democrat - they've picked sides, but that doesn't mean they're at war.

    Just because folks are not shooting at each other doesn't mean they won't spy on each other either...many governments spy on their citizens...doesn't mean they're at war.

    The Fed/KDF ceasefire/working together started long before the Borg STFs. Whether it's a simple case of them not shooting at each other or sitting down at a table discussing a common enemy...it's been over. The one mission that is out of place for the KDF and Romulans is Skirmish.

    Look at where it takes place for the Feds, eh? Then look at the missions that come after it. It's out of order for the KDF and Romulans, an "enemy" mission after folks are no longer enemies.

    For Cryptic to make such an investment on a potential territory system - they'd need evidence of a substantial return on the investment. That's not there. The PvP playerbase is pretty damn small. Cryptic's not helping it grow outside of some lukewarm support of Bootcamp. Some players are trying to do things to make it grow...but as evidenced in this thread and pretty much anywhere you go near PvP...so many players aren't.

    So why not try to make the PvP playerbase grow with realistic expectations...keep building it...show Cryptic that there is the support from more than just the few dozen folks that post over and over again asking for stuff?

    The Doff missions I was referring too are specific to the DS9 storyline mission and are not independent, but a part of that mission. I'm sorry, but I've not played anything story related that indicates KDF and Feds stopped being at war w/each other. Quite frankly, most of the NPC vs NPC conflicts haven't been resolved and could be used in a territorial control system.

    Cryptic won't invest in PvP b/c they don't want too and they've gone too far down the power creep rabbit hole to start now tbh. I can't see them undoing the power creep, it's just gone too far. At best they can reduce the time gated gap (which is mainly the rep system). There's also the issue that they couldn't make a raid map, so I don't see it being w/in their capabilities to make a territory worth fighting over.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mewi wrote: »
    Why do you even bring up penalties? You want STO PvP to have penalties? Does it really help PvP in STO? You avoid my questions. You want elitism to the max? Bug exploitation everywhere? That is what it would be asking for.

    Also, the base of this discussion has nothing to do with your recent strawman construction. At best you are just avoiding the absolute failure of your ability to realize your own faults in this discussion.

    But!

    Lets go on that strawman brick road, *deedle leee deee* League of Legends is a strategy game that contains RPG elements. DoTA and ******** 3 customized DoTA maps are also strategy games that contain RPG elements. League of Legends, is not an RPG, and Strategy is a genre. Your analogy is flawed.

    Woosh

    whoa wait STO is a role playing game that contains PvP mechanics that complement the RPG. The PvP itself contains STO's RPG elements. STO isn't an "RPG PVP" because PVP isn't a genre... it is a mechanic............. ( omg really mewi? whoa... I totally did not know that, you know all, praise be it mewi ) .............implemented within a genre that uses well established genre elements.

    IE: Its an RPG genre with Pvp mechanics
    not PvP Genre with RPG mechanics

    see we are getting somewhere now!

    Arguing semantics aside. I don't get the reasoning behind your entire argument, should I think about it further!? I certainly wouldn't want to do it, nope nope, not me!

    Space Kitty says goodnight!

    All you do is declare your opinions as facts, and when you're called out you use ad hominem attacks. DoTA fits your definition of RGP. It was a mod of an RGP/RTS combo game. It was one of the 2 broad categories of games (RGP/MMOs) which have a long history of death penalties in their PvP. I asked way back "what in this game's PvP is RGP PvP", b/c that was the foundation of a position you put forward as to why some players should have such an empirical advantage over others in PvP.

    For the record I called for death penalties when the Rhode Island was announced over 2 years ago b/c I saw what the pay for power would do to PvP and the shaky balance it had then.

    I view Paying for Power and Time gated power as elitism. Not sure how death penalties in PvP in this game would make this game more full of elitism. Currently, there are no risks for empirical advantages. At least w/loot drops a person could use all whites and get shinies from other players' drops.

    Since this game is "casual" the other option would be to have standardized power distribution for a more level playing field. Especially on the timed gated stuff.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    i have no doubt that many pvpers are motivated to champion some system of 'everyone is equal' due to the fact they are all running new romulans in an effort to remain competitive. they have rolled a rom (cos they know they are op) and are dreading grinding rep again, procuring lobi consoles, purple mk12 tac consoles, doffs, etc. the easiest solution for them is to 'equalise' their fresh romulan toons with the years old fed/kdf toons out there so their op roms can smash them good and proper consistently, with minimal investment required.

    i bet you dont even have to ask me what i think of that. i have already suffered what amounts to a racial and factional nerf due to the introduction of romulans. invalidating my kit isnt going to make me happier or likely to return to pvp.

    imo the solution is as simple as pvp reputation being used to queue people with others at a similar level. not another nerf to non romulans- and thats exactly what this would amount to since its pretty clear the vast majority of new toons are romulan.
  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Split queues, one with a passive boost to gear applied to everyone, and another one where gear matters.


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  • newromulan1newromulan1 Member Posts: 2,229
    edited September 2013
    In approx. 6 weeks we get the 4th Rep grind - with more than likely super passives and power boosters + new equipement - the joy will never end:(
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    In approx. 6 weeks we get the 4th Rep grind - with more than likely super passives and power boosters + new equipement - the joy will never end:(

    You read this as well?
    FYI, the Voth Task Force Rep has some pretty mega rewards, and is, in fact, a brand new Rep schema which is much more satisfying and rewarding. So the payoffs for all Dyson sphere content should feel much more rewarding than in the past. Hopefully you will like it, and we will update the old reps once we are all happy with it.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    i have no doubt that many pvpers are motivated to champion some system of 'everyone is equal' due to the fact they are all running new romulans in an effort to remain competitive. they have rolled a rom (cos they know they are op) and are dreading grinding rep again, procuring lobi consoles, purple mk12 tac consoles, doffs, etc. the easiest solution for them is to 'equalise' their fresh romulan toons with the years old fed/kdf toons out there so their op roms can smash them good and proper consistently, with minimal investment required.

    i bet you dont even have to ask me what i think of that. i have already suffered what amounts to a racial and factional nerf due to the introduction of romulans. invalidating my kit isnt going to make me happier or likely to return to pvp.

    imo the solution is as simple as pvp reputation being used to queue people with others at a similar level. not another nerf to non romulans- and thats exactly what this would amount to since its pretty clear the vast majority of new toons are romulan.

    I have 3 Romulan Tacs... 2 Fed 1 Klink... All 5 5 5 rep
    I have 1 Romulan Sci... 5 5 5
    I have 1 Romulan engi... ya ok didn't bother with the rep its for training. lol

    Anything I needed on those toons I simply dropped some EC... Fleet ship no issue drop the 20mil... Want an elachi escort sure buy it... want to put a 3 piece on it why not drop the 200mil ec on keys no big deal. I have spent probaly 800mil ec easy on my roms... I could care less... I did it cause I had fun doing it. lol

    However when I PvP I sure as hell don't want to hear... ya ya you beat me with your full rep lockbox ship romulan toon no kidden... Do you ? You like to hear excuses from your prey ? :)

    I joke a bit, just want to be clear... there is NOTHING in this game I don't own that includes doffs boffs ships consoles sets ect... nothing at all... Wait perhaps 3 or 4 zen store ships never tickled my fancy.

    Anyone that feels they need to maintain some grind gear advantage over new players... is arguing such to protect there own egos... and that is the only logical reason I can come up with. Feel free to correct me on that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You read this as well?
    In approx. 6 weeks we get the 4th Rep grind - with more than likely super passives and power boosters + new equipement - the joy will never end:(

    This is exactly the issue no doubt.

    PvP can not survive long term with more and more reps being added. I would have assumed we had already reached the point where new players would simply stop playing... and frankly I think we already have.

    People like to point out how many people are in the ques since S7 ect ect... however has anyone really honestly paid any real attention to the people in those ques. 90% of them are there for the daily Dilithium reward... and that's it.

    You know what channel in game is larger then Opvp..... if you answered the Channel designed for people to find teams for pvp in which they intend to loose in the most efficient manner... you win the magic space cookie.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
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