What seperated D2 hardcore from the rest was there was only 1 life for a toon. It had nothing to do w/corpse drops and losing gear that could be picked up by another player. It's been a staple of RGP PvP for well over a decade that there are risks involved in losing/dieing in RGP PvPs.
A meaningless virtually unplayed staple, so why do you bring it up? Sure you got Eve Online? But what else?, only hardcore fanatics play Eve Online, how does that solve STO's problem? You want to bash the hardcore PvPers out of existence? Still doesn't explain your "spoils" comment though.
You want a go in, and if you die... you lose everything? PvP?
Like I said at the start RGP PvP. It's not something this game has. You're the one trying to parce them not me.
lol~ I see im rubber your glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you? right, I was the one that started the argument that there was nothing "RPG" about the PVP in the RPG game...
What am I complaining about except for the person who is mad that Cryptic didnt give them an NPC that had everything in the game for 0 EC?
Ah, my bad. I was directing it at someone else who keeps posting that pvp is broken and defends. Lingering amongst all the pvp on the forums blurred my vision.
I accept that pvp is broken, and while I would be interested in pvp, I know I cannot compete unless I leave my first love, the Dreadnought Cruiser, at home. And even if I did, I still will take, effectively, "forever". I've already missed the boat with the BO doff. This is because I'm more focused on herding my 9+ toons through doffs to maintain the dilithium --> zen engine I have running.
(I'm still a long way from the 160000 zen required by the Legacy of Rom pack, or purchasing every cryptic store ship to exist, or unlocking more slots for my coming Rom alts!)
I dont think I will have even a flicker of a chance in pvp.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Ah, my bad. I was directing it at someone else who keeps posting that pvp is broken and defends. Lingering amongst all the pvp on the forums blurred my vision.
I accept that pvp is broken, and while I would be interested in pvp, I know I cannot compete unless I leave my first love, the Dreadnought Cruiser, at home. And even if I did, I still will take, effectively, "forever". I've already missed the boat with the BO doff. This is because I'm more focused on herding my 9+ toons through doffs to maintain the dilithium --> zen engine I have running.
(I'm still a long way from the 160000 zen required by the Legacy of Rom pack, or purchasing every cryptic store ship to exist, or unlocking more slots for my coming Rom alts!)
I dont think I will have even a flicker of a chance in pvp.
On another note, most of these people are trying to create like 20 pvp characters at once, and complain that they feel burnt out afterwards.
Advice: Focus on one char, it really helps. ADHD style gaming doesn't.
Part of the back story is the KDF and Feds are at war. There is internal strife w/all 3 factions (granted 1 of the 3 is pushed to ally w/one of the other 2, it's not required). Not sure why you say there's no storyline reason to have it when in fact the Rommy faction storyline is born out of creating a territory for themselves and there are PvE territory defense missions.
I'm not sure how you didn't follow what I said.
There's a story taking place in STO.
At one point in the story, the Feds and KDF are at war. The story progresses. The war no longer exists.
The introduction of the Romulans did not change that. The early Romulan story is backstory - it's taking place during a certain part of the story to catch up with the rest of the story.
Let's grab a handful of characters, eh?
Fed#1 is level 50...they've finished all the episodes.
Fed#2 is level 34...they're doing Darkness Before the Dawn.
Fed#3 is level 4...they're doing Stop the Signal.
KDF#1 is level 21...they're doing Lost City of Paradise.
KDF#2 is level 47...they're doing Cold Call.
KDF#3 is level 35...they're doing Badlands.
Rom#1 is level 7...they're doing Gasko Blues.
Rom#2 is level 45...they're doing Report to Gamma Orionis.
Rom#3 is level 11...they're doing The Price of Neutrality.
All 9 can go to Drozana, drop a Party Amp, and dance like they're off their medication...but chronologically they're at different points in the story.
Rom#1 - the Roms haven't found Tau Dewa yet.
KDF#1 - the Roms have found Tau Dewa, but D'tan hasn't hooked up with Obisek yet.
Fed#1 - that's ancient history to this dude...
The story has progressed. The Feds and KDF are allies...they're fighting common foes now. S8 and the Voth brings more of that...
We will be bringing down the Tribble server for maintenance to apply a new update: ST.35.20130908a.18
New Feature!
Storming the Spire 5 Man Event
This is a new five man, 15 minute event that is available from the queue at any time.
The event is playable by mixed Starfleet, Klingon Defense Force, and Romulan Republic captains.
So outside of a historical territorial control, which wouldn't make sense - wouldn't change anything - because we know where the story has gone since then...comes off as a waste of resources.
And as you said, an endeavor has been created by players to try to accommodate such a playstyle...though, I haven't seen anything about that in ages.
A meaningless virtually unplayed staple, so why do you bring it up? Sure you got Eve Online? But what else?, only hardcore fanatics play Eve Online, how does that solve STO's problem? You want to bash the hardcore PvPers out of existence? Still doesn't explain your "spoils" comment though.
You want a go in, and if you die... you lose everything? PvP?
Yeah, that will keep em coming!
lol~ I see im rubber your glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you? right, I was the one that started the argument that there was nothing "RPG" about the PVP in the RPG game...
I completely forgot...
what... wait a minute!
Go look up the early MMO or MUDs or actual old RPGs even if you really want to know the answer. You act like you never heard of games like Ever Quest or D&D and death penalties w/looting are some rare novelty. DoTA had actual RGP progression w/more potential gear drop and other penalties, and it's led to one of the most successful PvP spinoffs.
So you ever going to answer what about STO is RPG PvP in nature or you going to continue to evade the question? Or as a vet RGPer had you never done PvP before?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
At one point in the story, the Feds and KDF are at war. The story progresses. The war no longer exists.
The introduction of the Romulans did not change that. The early Romulan story is backstory - it's taking place during a certain part of the story to catch up with the rest of the story.
Let's grab a handful of characters, eh?
Fed#1 is level 50...they've finished all the episodes.
Fed#2 is level 34...they're doing Darkness Before the Dawn.
Fed#3 is level 4...they're doing Stop the Signal.
KDF#1 is level 21...they're doing Lost City of Paradise.
KDF#2 is level 47...they're doing Cold Call.
KDF#3 is level 35...they're doing Badlands.
Rom#1 is level 7...they're doing Gasko Blues.
Rom#2 is level 45...they're doing Report to Gamma Orionis.
Rom#3 is level 11...they're doing The Price of Neutrality.
All 9 can go to Drozana, drop a Party Amp, and dance like they're off their medication...but chronologically they're at different points in the story.
Rom#1 - the Roms haven't found Tau Dewa yet.
KDF#1 - the Roms have found Tau Dewa, but D'tan hasn't hooked up with Obisek yet.
Fed#1 - that's ancient history to this dude...
The story has progressed. The Feds and KDF are allies...they're fighting common foes now. S8 and the Voth brings more of that...
So outside of a historical territorial control, which wouldn't make sense - wouldn't change anything - because we know where the story has gone since then...comes off as a waste of resources.
And as you said, an endeavor has been created by players to try to accommodate such a playstyle...though, I haven't seen anything about that in ages.
When did the FED KDF war end? Rommies even have to pick sides. In DS9 storyline mission there are KDF doff missions to spy et al on the Feds and you can shoot Feds iirc on the Bajor mission. This started w/the Borg et al still going on. At best there's a cease of hostilities for specific missions.
Nothing close to ending the Fed vs KDF, or the internal KDF wars, Fed still have internal section 31/undine issues, Rommies have issues w/pretty much anyone and everyone, at least the story line has shown.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
So folks should only roll one character...and...they should suck it up for months on end if they're new?
You know, that might be where some of the elitist comments made by some may have come into play...
...what's wrong with folks either with alts or that are new, having a place to pew without it affecting a place to pew for veteran folks?
I like how I know for a fact Mewi was directing that ADHD comment at me, but failed to realize I have only thus far geared up one toon to the point I think its ready for prime time.
I might have 6 toons in my sig (note one is still a Lt, lol), but only one of them is "done"
id be down for a queue change that had the following:
Space - Standard (Common or Uncommon gear only)
Space - Hardcore (Any gear permitted)
Where in standard mode you couldnt use superduper special consoles or anything higher than green, but in hardcore all bets are off.
Actually, just making the cutoff between green and blue would account for all of the consoles and whatever as well.
Id bet you the Standard queue would be very popular.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Go look up the early MMO or MUDs or actual old RPGs even if you really want to know the answer. You act like you never heard of games like Ever Quest or D&D and death penalties w/looting are some rare novelty. DoTA had actual RGP progression w/more potential gear drop and other penalties, and it's led to one of the most successful PvP spinoffs.
So you ever going to answer what about STO is RPG PvP in nature or you going to continue to evade the question? Or as a vet RGPer had you never done PvP before?
Why do you even bring up penalties? You want STO PvP to have penalties? Does it really help PvP in STO? You avoid my questions. You want elitism to the max? Bug exploitation everywhere? That is what it would be asking for.
Also, the base of this discussion has nothing to do with your recent strawman construction. At best you are just avoiding the absolute failure of your ability to realize your own faults in this discussion.
But!
Lets go on that strawman brick road, *deedle leee deee* League of Legends is a strategy game that contains RPG elements. DoTA and ******** 3 customized DoTA maps are also strategy games that contain RPG elements. League of Legends, is not an RPG, and Strategy is a genre. Your analogy is flawed.
Woosh
whoa wait STO is a role playing game that contains PvP mechanics that complement the RPG. The PvP itself contains STO's RPG elements. STO isn't an "RPG PVP" because PVP isn't a genre... it is a mechanic............. ( omg really mewi? whoa... I totally did not know that, you know all, praise be it mewi ) .............implemented within a genre that uses well established genre elements.
IE: Its an RPG genre with Pvp mechanics
not PvP Genre with RPG mechanics
see we are getting somewhere now!
Arguing semantics aside. I don't get the reasoning behind your entire argument, should I think about it further!? I certainly wouldn't want to do it, nope nope, not me!
When did the FED KDF war end? Rommies even have to pick sides. In DS9 storyline mission there are KDF doff missions to spy et al on the Feds and you can shoot Feds iirc on the Bajor mission. This started w/the Borg et al still going on. At best there's a cease of hostilities for specific missions.
Nothing close to ending the Fed vs KDF, or the internal KDF wars, Fed still have internal section 31/undine issues, Rommies have issues w/pretty much anyone and everyone, at least the story line has shown.
DOFF missions are outside of the story missions. Those come up whether you've done a single episode or not. Those come up if you've done all the episodes. They're independent.
The Romulans having to pick a side...doesn't mean anything. Somebody goes to vote in the States, they're generally registering as Republican or Democrat - they've picked sides, but that doesn't mean they're at war.
Just because folks are not shooting at each other doesn't mean they won't spy on each other either...many governments spy on their citizens...doesn't mean they're at war.
The Fed/KDF ceasefire/working together started long before the Borg STFs. Whether it's a simple case of them not shooting at each other or sitting down at a table discussing a common enemy...it's been over. The one mission that is out of place for the KDF and Romulans is Skirmish.
Look at where it takes place for the Feds, eh? Then look at the missions that come after it. It's out of order for the KDF and Romulans, an "enemy" mission after folks are no longer enemies.
For Cryptic to make such an investment on a potential territory system - they'd need evidence of a substantial return on the investment. That's not there. The PvP playerbase is pretty damn small. Cryptic's not helping it grow outside of some lukewarm support of Bootcamp. Some players are trying to do things to make it grow...but as evidenced in this thread and pretty much anywhere you go near PvP...so many players aren't.
So why not try to make the PvP playerbase grow with realistic expectations...keep building it...show Cryptic that there is the support from more than just the few dozen folks that post over and over again asking for stuff?
I don't want PvE mixed in my serious PvP... period.
I like GW2... in that I can pvp and it doesn't matter if I spent 1000 hours in PvE first to equip some uber raid gear.... cause it doesn't work in PVP.
I can not play that game for a month and load up for a night of great PvP fun... cause no mater what new toys got released in the 4 weeks I was gone... it really don't make no difference to my pvp experience. (open world PvP sure... in that case you need to keep up and thats fine... but serious team based pvp ... gear is removed from the system).
I have yet to hear a real argument as to why 100s of hours of PvE are required to setup a maxed out PvP toon ? Why would any self respecting "PvP' lover even try to defend that sillyness... the only reason that comes to mind is this. You have your stuffz and they make beating up on the new kids easy which makes you feel good about the 100s of hours you have wasted doing PvE.
I am not trolling ... and I am not wining cause I have junk gear. No one that knows me in game thinks I am lacking anything... I am sitting on close to a billion EC almost 20 toons at this point most with full or darn close to full reps... multiple lockbox and fleet ships... if I need or what anything in game I buy it with in game currency. I don't bring it up for myself... I started the TD channel to try and make PvP fun for everyone. I have no fun beating on people. Not to brag but for the most part I have played this game so much I could load up white gear and beat or at least compete with most people in the game... I am not feeling like I should have PvE gear handed to me.
I simply don't feel that any of us should be strapped with 4 years of grinded PvE gear in PvP. It discourages new players from taking up our favorite part of the game. I don't blame them either... if those of you with all the gear like myself don't agree with me... go role a F2P toon and don't help it go into end game pvp with a mirror or one of the end game D ships with gear you could swing with EC you earned leveling there... play 10 matches in the que and then explain to me how you feel afterwards... imagine you where a new player would you have gotten through all 10 ? I doubt it.
DOFF missions are outside of the story missions. Those come up whether you've done a single episode or not. Those come up if you've done all the episodes. They're independent.
The Romulans having to pick a side...doesn't mean anything. Somebody goes to vote in the States, they're generally registering as Republican or Democrat - they've picked sides, but that doesn't mean they're at war.
Just because folks are not shooting at each other doesn't mean they won't spy on each other either...many governments spy on their citizens...doesn't mean they're at war.
The Fed/KDF ceasefire/working together started long before the Borg STFs. Whether it's a simple case of them not shooting at each other or sitting down at a table discussing a common enemy...it's been over. The one mission that is out of place for the KDF and Romulans is Skirmish.
Look at where it takes place for the Feds, eh? Then look at the missions that come after it. It's out of order for the KDF and Romulans, an "enemy" mission after folks are no longer enemies.
For Cryptic to make such an investment on a potential territory system - they'd need evidence of a substantial return on the investment. That's not there. The PvP playerbase is pretty damn small. Cryptic's not helping it grow outside of some lukewarm support of Bootcamp. Some players are trying to do things to make it grow...but as evidenced in this thread and pretty much anywhere you go near PvP...so many players aren't.
So why not try to make the PvP playerbase grow with realistic expectations...keep building it...show Cryptic that there is the support from more than just the few dozen folks that post over and over again asking for stuff?
The Doff missions I was referring too are specific to the DS9 storyline mission and are not independent, but a part of that mission. I'm sorry, but I've not played anything story related that indicates KDF and Feds stopped being at war w/each other. Quite frankly, most of the NPC vs NPC conflicts haven't been resolved and could be used in a territorial control system.
Cryptic won't invest in PvP b/c they don't want too and they've gone too far down the power creep rabbit hole to start now tbh. I can't see them undoing the power creep, it's just gone too far. At best they can reduce the time gated gap (which is mainly the rep system). There's also the issue that they couldn't make a raid map, so I don't see it being w/in their capabilities to make a territory worth fighting over.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Why do you even bring up penalties? You want STO PvP to have penalties? Does it really help PvP in STO? You avoid my questions. You want elitism to the max? Bug exploitation everywhere? That is what it would be asking for.
Also, the base of this discussion has nothing to do with your recent strawman construction. At best you are just avoiding the absolute failure of your ability to realize your own faults in this discussion.
But!
Lets go on that strawman brick road, *deedle leee deee* League of Legends is a strategy game that contains RPG elements. DoTA and ******** 3 customized DoTA maps are also strategy games that contain RPG elements. League of Legends, is not an RPG, and Strategy is a genre. Your analogy is flawed.
Woosh
whoa wait STO is a role playing game that contains PvP mechanics that complement the RPG. The PvP itself contains STO's RPG elements. STO isn't an "RPG PVP" because PVP isn't a genre... it is a mechanic............. ( omg really mewi? whoa... I totally did not know that, you know all, praise be it mewi ) .............implemented within a genre that uses well established genre elements.
IE: Its an RPG genre with Pvp mechanics
not PvP Genre with RPG mechanics
see we are getting somewhere now!
Arguing semantics aside. I don't get the reasoning behind your entire argument, should I think about it further!? I certainly wouldn't want to do it, nope nope, not me!
Space Kitty says goodnight!
All you do is declare your opinions as facts, and when you're called out you use ad hominem attacks. DoTA fits your definition of RGP. It was a mod of an RGP/RTS combo game. It was one of the 2 broad categories of games (RGP/MMOs) which have a long history of death penalties in their PvP. I asked way back "what in this game's PvP is RGP PvP", b/c that was the foundation of a position you put forward as to why some players should have such an empirical advantage over others in PvP.
For the record I called for death penalties when the Rhode Island was announced over 2 years ago b/c I saw what the pay for power would do to PvP and the shaky balance it had then.
I view Paying for Power and Time gated power as elitism. Not sure how death penalties in PvP in this game would make this game more full of elitism. Currently, there are no risks for empirical advantages. At least w/loot drops a person could use all whites and get shinies from other players' drops.
Since this game is "casual" the other option would be to have standardized power distribution for a more level playing field. Especially on the timed gated stuff.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
i have no doubt that many pvpers are motivated to champion some system of 'everyone is equal' due to the fact they are all running new romulans in an effort to remain competitive. they have rolled a rom (cos they know they are op) and are dreading grinding rep again, procuring lobi consoles, purple mk12 tac consoles, doffs, etc. the easiest solution for them is to 'equalise' their fresh romulan toons with the years old fed/kdf toons out there so their op roms can smash them good and proper consistently, with minimal investment required.
i bet you dont even have to ask me what i think of that. i have already suffered what amounts to a racial and factional nerf due to the introduction of romulans. invalidating my kit isnt going to make me happier or likely to return to pvp.
imo the solution is as simple as pvp reputation being used to queue people with others at a similar level. not another nerf to non romulans- and thats exactly what this would amount to since its pretty clear the vast majority of new toons are romulan.
FYI, the Voth Task Force Rep has some pretty mega rewards, and is, in fact, a brand new Rep schema which is much more satisfying and rewarding. So the payoffs for all Dyson sphere content should feel much more rewarding than in the past. Hopefully you will like it, and we will update the old reps once we are all happy with it.
i have no doubt that many pvpers are motivated to champion some system of 'everyone is equal' due to the fact they are all running new romulans in an effort to remain competitive. they have rolled a rom (cos they know they are op) and are dreading grinding rep again, procuring lobi consoles, purple mk12 tac consoles, doffs, etc. the easiest solution for them is to 'equalise' their fresh romulan toons with the years old fed/kdf toons out there so their op roms can smash them good and proper consistently, with minimal investment required.
i bet you dont even have to ask me what i think of that. i have already suffered what amounts to a racial and factional nerf due to the introduction of romulans. invalidating my kit isnt going to make me happier or likely to return to pvp.
imo the solution is as simple as pvp reputation being used to queue people with others at a similar level. not another nerf to non romulans- and thats exactly what this would amount to since its pretty clear the vast majority of new toons are romulan.
I have 3 Romulan Tacs... 2 Fed 1 Klink... All 5 5 5 rep
I have 1 Romulan Sci... 5 5 5
I have 1 Romulan engi... ya ok didn't bother with the rep its for training. lol
Anything I needed on those toons I simply dropped some EC... Fleet ship no issue drop the 20mil... Want an elachi escort sure buy it... want to put a 3 piece on it why not drop the 200mil ec on keys no big deal. I have spent probaly 800mil ec easy on my roms... I could care less... I did it cause I had fun doing it. lol
However when I PvP I sure as hell don't want to hear... ya ya you beat me with your full rep lockbox ship romulan toon no kidden... Do you ? You like to hear excuses from your prey ?
I joke a bit, just want to be clear... there is NOTHING in this game I don't own that includes doffs boffs ships consoles sets ect... nothing at all... Wait perhaps 3 or 4 zen store ships never tickled my fancy.
Anyone that feels they need to maintain some grind gear advantage over new players... is arguing such to protect there own egos... and that is the only logical reason I can come up with. Feel free to correct me on that.
In approx. 6 weeks we get the 4th Rep grind - with more than likely super passives and power boosters + new equipement - the joy will never end:(
This is exactly the issue no doubt.
PvP can not survive long term with more and more reps being added. I would have assumed we had already reached the point where new players would simply stop playing... and frankly I think we already have.
People like to point out how many people are in the ques since S7 ect ect... however has anyone really honestly paid any real attention to the people in those ques. 90% of them are there for the daily Dilithium reward... and that's it.
You know what channel in game is larger then Opvp..... if you answered the Channel designed for people to find teams for pvp in which they intend to loose in the most efficient manner... you win the magic space cookie.
I love the part where he says "mega rewards" I wonder if the first to get to T5 will get a "I win" button on a 3 min cooldown which will blow up all enemy ships on the map:eek:
T2 Voth adv subspace jump - every time you are targeted your ship instantly jumps to 20km away
T4 Voth subspace vortex - ability allows the user to transport all enemy player controlled ships to another part of the galaxy and it takes them 5 min to return to the map.
Fun times ahead for Geko's favorite part of the game : PvP:eek:
So i decide to try out pvp. this game's pvp has reached a tipping point. You either really really have, or you really really dont. and theres nothing that can really be done to save it. its to specialized. the feeling i get, as a new pvper, is you have no chance in hell of ever getting better, there is no learning curve. you are just here so us leet veterans have a target to practice on. My experience is so bad thats im never trying it again. ever. cryptic could dangle a three pack of scimitar ships in front of me, and id tell them where they can shove their TRIBBLE.
ok ill leave now so everyone can tell me how bad i am, or learn to fly. and i wont read a word of it. Just wanting you to have feedback, of why ill never pvp again.
TL;DR the learning curve in pvp is too brutal. to ever get the pvp community to grow, soften it.
I understand the OPs feelings
Cryptic makes the gap bigger with each new rep system each new super BO and Doff and right now the Gap is no longer a stream or a river it is a ocean a new player has to cross
PvP right now does not even resemble star trek
Its more like a space fighter game with magic included
In hardly any way does PvP look like a star trek space battles from the shows or movies except a few of the ships look like they were copied from star trek in looks only
You need a joystick from a F15 to fly a ship now they have so much speed and manoverability its really stupid compared to canon
I usge the cryptic team to watch some Tv shows featuring Star Trek Really this game is so far off base in PvP i think a refresher course is needed
and now to top it off the Romulan characters and ships show up with such power over the older Fed and klingon characters it is truly patethic
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I think they honestly don't care about expanding or fixing PvP. But they do want to keep harvesting PvPers for money. I suspect we are the "whales" contributing an over sized portion of the profits to this game.
Rep grinds will continue because end game would be dead without them. It keeps the veterans busy. But Reps need to be removed from PvP .... period.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I don't think stomping on all the veteran players to make newer less experienced players feel better about themselves is the solution.
On another note, it is true, time gated content is lame and slows things down far too much.
To an extent, it's why it's easier to stand in the middle and stomp on both...while suggesting that split. The new players are insane to think that they should have all the goodies that a vet does - the vet players are insane to think that all the goodies do not make it pointless for the new player to try (and that it's not quite really a case of the new player going through the same thing that the vet did).
PreS7, I'd usually reroll one of my guys every 2-3 weeks. Because PreS7, I could ding in a weekend and have several sets of Mk XI gear or better by the following weekend. It would take a week if that to gear a toon. With S7, there was also the conversion boxes.
Enter S7 with the New Rom/Omega Reps.
A PreS7 toon starting those Reps had an advantage over the S7 toon starting them.
Enter LoR with the Nukara Rep.
A PreS7 toon has an advantage over the S7 toon that has an advantage over the LoR toon.
Here come the Voth and S8!
A PreS7 toon has an advantage over the S7 toon that has an advantage over the LoR toon that has an advantage over the new S8 toon.
The simple fact is that that veteran player never had it as rough as the new player, because the vet player was there during the incremental additions of everything...the new player has to deal with it all at the same time, and they have to catch up with it all.
I had 4 guys PreS7. I chose to reroll them for S7 (wanted a fresh start, wanted to see what it would be like for the new player in comparison - wanted more of a challenge - and yeah, I still kick myself over that...lol/meh. Heck, I kick myself at times for every toon that I deleted for that year before S7...but I refused to pay the 500 Zen for a respec at the time (that's changed since S7)...
...I added 2 more guys with the 3rd Anniversary. I added two guys after that but before LoR to help out with testing mainly (but I started playing them as if they were normal toons). I added the guy with LoR.
I've been tempted to delete all my guys and start over again...but I look at the path there, and well - yeah, I haven't done it. I really want to do it - but I haven't done it. I've got another character slot there that I haven't rolled, because I can't see going through it again.
3 of my 9 guys are T5 New Rom/T5 Omega..1 of them is also T5 Nukara, with the other 2 being T4/T3. Outside of the odd weapon, upgrading the Cores, I'm generally happy with where their gearing is. The other 6 guys? Meh, yeah - no. The 3 KDF usually only do Die25 and the 3 Feds don't go anywhere near PvP outside of doing a quick test for something.
Somewhere down the road, there's the talk of the Cardassians, Liberated Borg, and more - I can't even begin to imagine how far behind new toons for those factions will be...meh.
I've ground my keester off for those 3 guys, and I'll have eventually ground my keester off for the rest of them. So I want that place I can play with all of that jazz...but then there's the 6 other guys, and well - I want a place I can play with them too.
That's why I tend to harp on the doing away with the FvF, FvK, KvK queues - going to a RvB system - and introducing some sort of queue split that addresses starting players vs. vet players.
I don't agree with the new players or alts having to fight against the geared out the wahzoo guys - I don't see how that's fun for the vet players (I don't have any fun on those 3 guys if the target dies before I've finished hitting all the keys for some convoluted alpha I'm trying to pull off), it's a slaughter for the new players...
...but I also don't agree with the separate game thing, where we're all flying Cryptic's idea of how a ship should be (c'mon, who hasn't taken some Excedrin after looking at the Ambassador build during Temporal Ambassador?).
Meh, I need to stop thinking about rerolling all my guys...or maybe I should reroll them. Have to figure I'd end up walking away at that point, and perhaps that's best with where it looks like the game's going with "mega rewards!"
There are likely to be more and more Reps...they're not only a form of content, but they're also a form of revenue for Cryptic.
I think they already indicated that they have a few more reps in mind - and I highly expect next year to see a Dominion/cardi/trueway type faction - the 4th biggest faction in the prime universe series.
Home world will be Cardassia - adventure zoen on Cardassia - embassy to build
AND what you have all been asking for: A 5th Rep!!! Cardassian/true way/dominion rep system
I think Number 5 will be the last.
Man imaging starting a new Cardi or Jem'har or even Founder toon and starting 5!!!! Reps from Scratch!!! Yeah I will be doing 10 new toons for sure!! NOT:eek:
Comments
A meaningless virtually unplayed staple, so why do you bring it up? Sure you got Eve Online? But what else?, only hardcore fanatics play Eve Online, how does that solve STO's problem? You want to bash the hardcore PvPers out of existence? Still doesn't explain your "spoils" comment though.
You want a go in, and if you die... you lose everything? PvP?
Yeah, that will keep em coming!
lol~ I see im rubber your glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you? right, I was the one that started the argument that there was nothing "RPG" about the PVP in the RPG game...
I completely forgot...
what... wait a minute!
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Ah, my bad. I was directing it at someone else who keeps posting that pvp is broken and defends. Lingering amongst all the pvp on the forums blurred my vision.
I accept that pvp is broken, and while I would be interested in pvp, I know I cannot compete unless I leave my first love, the Dreadnought Cruiser, at home. And even if I did, I still will take, effectively, "forever". I've already missed the boat with the BO doff. This is because I'm more focused on herding my 9+ toons through doffs to maintain the dilithium --> zen engine I have running.
(I'm still a long way from the 160000 zen required by the Legacy of Rom pack, or purchasing every cryptic store ship to exist, or unlocking more slots for my coming Rom alts!)
I dont think I will have even a flicker of a chance in pvp.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
On another note, most of these people are trying to create like 20 pvp characters at once, and complain that they feel burnt out afterwards.
Advice: Focus on one char, it really helps. ADHD style gaming doesn't.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I'm not sure how you didn't follow what I said.
There's a story taking place in STO.
At one point in the story, the Feds and KDF are at war. The story progresses. The war no longer exists.
The introduction of the Romulans did not change that. The early Romulan story is backstory - it's taking place during a certain part of the story to catch up with the rest of the story.
Let's grab a handful of characters, eh?
Fed#1 is level 50...they've finished all the episodes.
Fed#2 is level 34...they're doing Darkness Before the Dawn.
Fed#3 is level 4...they're doing Stop the Signal.
KDF#1 is level 21...they're doing Lost City of Paradise.
KDF#2 is level 47...they're doing Cold Call.
KDF#3 is level 35...they're doing Badlands.
Rom#1 is level 7...they're doing Gasko Blues.
Rom#2 is level 45...they're doing Report to Gamma Orionis.
Rom#3 is level 11...they're doing The Price of Neutrality.
All 9 can go to Drozana, drop a Party Amp, and dance like they're off their medication...but chronologically they're at different points in the story.
Rom#1 - the Roms haven't found Tau Dewa yet.
KDF#1 - the Roms have found Tau Dewa, but D'tan hasn't hooked up with Obisek yet.
Fed#1 - that's ancient history to this dude...
The story has progressed. The Feds and KDF are allies...they're fighting common foes now. S8 and the Voth brings more of that...
So outside of a historical territorial control, which wouldn't make sense - wouldn't change anything - because we know where the story has gone since then...comes off as a waste of resources.
And as you said, an endeavor has been created by players to try to accommodate such a playstyle...though, I haven't seen anything about that in ages.
Go look up the early MMO or MUDs or actual old RPGs even if you really want to know the answer. You act like you never heard of games like Ever Quest or D&D and death penalties w/looting are some rare novelty. DoTA had actual RGP progression w/more potential gear drop and other penalties, and it's led to one of the most successful PvP spinoffs.
So you ever going to answer what about STO is RPG PvP in nature or you going to continue to evade the question? Or as a vet RGPer had you never done PvP before?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
So folks should only roll one character...and...they should suck it up for months on end if they're new?
You know, that might be where some of the elitist comments made by some may have come into play...
...what's wrong with folks either with alts or that are new, having a place to pew without it affecting a place to pew for veteran folks?
When did the FED KDF war end? Rommies even have to pick sides. In DS9 storyline mission there are KDF doff missions to spy et al on the Feds and you can shoot Feds iirc on the Bajor mission. This started w/the Borg et al still going on. At best there's a cease of hostilities for specific missions.
Nothing close to ending the Fed vs KDF, or the internal KDF wars, Fed still have internal section 31/undine issues, Rommies have issues w/pretty much anyone and everyone, at least the story line has shown.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I like how I know for a fact Mewi was directing that ADHD comment at me, but failed to realize I have only thus far geared up one toon to the point I think its ready for prime time.
I might have 6 toons in my sig (note one is still a Lt, lol), but only one of them is "done"
id be down for a queue change that had the following:
Space - Standard (Common or Uncommon gear only)
Space - Hardcore (Any gear permitted)
Where in standard mode you couldnt use superduper special consoles or anything higher than green, but in hardcore all bets are off.
Actually, just making the cutoff between green and blue would account for all of the consoles and whatever as well.
Id bet you the Standard queue would be very popular.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Why do you even bring up penalties? You want STO PvP to have penalties? Does it really help PvP in STO? You avoid my questions. You want elitism to the max? Bug exploitation everywhere? That is what it would be asking for.
Also, the base of this discussion has nothing to do with your recent strawman construction. At best you are just avoiding the absolute failure of your ability to realize your own faults in this discussion.
But!
Lets go on that strawman brick road, *deedle leee deee* League of Legends is a strategy game that contains RPG elements. DoTA and ******** 3 customized DoTA maps are also strategy games that contain RPG elements. League of Legends, is not an RPG, and Strategy is a genre. Your analogy is flawed.
Woosh
whoa wait STO is a role playing game that contains PvP mechanics that complement the RPG. The PvP itself contains STO's RPG elements. STO isn't an "RPG PVP" because PVP isn't a genre... it is a mechanic............. ( omg really mewi? whoa... I totally did not know that, you know all, praise be it mewi ) .............implemented within a genre that uses well established genre elements.
IE: Its an RPG genre with Pvp mechanics
not PvP Genre with RPG mechanics
see we are getting somewhere now!
Arguing semantics aside. I don't get the reasoning behind your entire argument, should I think about it further!? I certainly wouldn't want to do it, nope nope, not me!
Space Kitty says goodnight!
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
DOFF missions are outside of the story missions. Those come up whether you've done a single episode or not. Those come up if you've done all the episodes. They're independent.
The Romulans having to pick a side...doesn't mean anything. Somebody goes to vote in the States, they're generally registering as Republican or Democrat - they've picked sides, but that doesn't mean they're at war.
Just because folks are not shooting at each other doesn't mean they won't spy on each other either...many governments spy on their citizens...doesn't mean they're at war.
The Fed/KDF ceasefire/working together started long before the Borg STFs. Whether it's a simple case of them not shooting at each other or sitting down at a table discussing a common enemy...it's been over. The one mission that is out of place for the KDF and Romulans is Skirmish.
Look at where it takes place for the Feds, eh? Then look at the missions that come after it. It's out of order for the KDF and Romulans, an "enemy" mission after folks are no longer enemies.
For Cryptic to make such an investment on a potential territory system - they'd need evidence of a substantial return on the investment. That's not there. The PvP playerbase is pretty damn small. Cryptic's not helping it grow outside of some lukewarm support of Bootcamp. Some players are trying to do things to make it grow...but as evidenced in this thread and pretty much anywhere you go near PvP...so many players aren't.
So why not try to make the PvP playerbase grow with realistic expectations...keep building it...show Cryptic that there is the support from more than just the few dozen folks that post over and over again asking for stuff?
I like GW2... in that I can pvp and it doesn't matter if I spent 1000 hours in PvE first to equip some uber raid gear.... cause it doesn't work in PVP.
I can not play that game for a month and load up for a night of great PvP fun... cause no mater what new toys got released in the 4 weeks I was gone... it really don't make no difference to my pvp experience. (open world PvP sure... in that case you need to keep up and thats fine... but serious team based pvp ... gear is removed from the system).
I have yet to hear a real argument as to why 100s of hours of PvE are required to setup a maxed out PvP toon ? Why would any self respecting "PvP' lover even try to defend that sillyness... the only reason that comes to mind is this. You have your stuffz and they make beating up on the new kids easy which makes you feel good about the 100s of hours you have wasted doing PvE.
I am not trolling ... and I am not wining cause I have junk gear. No one that knows me in game thinks I am lacking anything... I am sitting on close to a billion EC almost 20 toons at this point most with full or darn close to full reps... multiple lockbox and fleet ships... if I need or what anything in game I buy it with in game currency. I don't bring it up for myself... I started the TD channel to try and make PvP fun for everyone. I have no fun beating on people. Not to brag but for the most part I have played this game so much I could load up white gear and beat or at least compete with most people in the game... I am not feeling like I should have PvE gear handed to me.
I simply don't feel that any of us should be strapped with 4 years of grinded PvE gear in PvP. It discourages new players from taking up our favorite part of the game. I don't blame them either... if those of you with all the gear like myself don't agree with me... go role a F2P toon and don't help it go into end game pvp with a mirror or one of the end game D ships with gear you could swing with EC you earned leveling there... play 10 matches in the que and then explain to me how you feel afterwards... imagine you where a new player would you have gotten through all 10 ? I doubt it.
The Doff missions I was referring too are specific to the DS9 storyline mission and are not independent, but a part of that mission. I'm sorry, but I've not played anything story related that indicates KDF and Feds stopped being at war w/each other. Quite frankly, most of the NPC vs NPC conflicts haven't been resolved and could be used in a territorial control system.
Cryptic won't invest in PvP b/c they don't want too and they've gone too far down the power creep rabbit hole to start now tbh. I can't see them undoing the power creep, it's just gone too far. At best they can reduce the time gated gap (which is mainly the rep system). There's also the issue that they couldn't make a raid map, so I don't see it being w/in their capabilities to make a territory worth fighting over.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
All you do is declare your opinions as facts, and when you're called out you use ad hominem attacks. DoTA fits your definition of RGP. It was a mod of an RGP/RTS combo game. It was one of the 2 broad categories of games (RGP/MMOs) which have a long history of death penalties in their PvP. I asked way back "what in this game's PvP is RGP PvP", b/c that was the foundation of a position you put forward as to why some players should have such an empirical advantage over others in PvP.
For the record I called for death penalties when the Rhode Island was announced over 2 years ago b/c I saw what the pay for power would do to PvP and the shaky balance it had then.
I view Paying for Power and Time gated power as elitism. Not sure how death penalties in PvP in this game would make this game more full of elitism. Currently, there are no risks for empirical advantages. At least w/loot drops a person could use all whites and get shinies from other players' drops.
Since this game is "casual" the other option would be to have standardized power distribution for a more level playing field. Especially on the timed gated stuff.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
i bet you dont even have to ask me what i think of that. i have already suffered what amounts to a racial and factional nerf due to the introduction of romulans. invalidating my kit isnt going to make me happier or likely to return to pvp.
imo the solution is as simple as pvp reputation being used to queue people with others at a similar level. not another nerf to non romulans- and thats exactly what this would amount to since its pretty clear the vast majority of new toons are romulan.
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
You read this as well?
I have 3 Romulan Tacs... 2 Fed 1 Klink... All 5 5 5 rep
I have 1 Romulan Sci... 5 5 5
I have 1 Romulan engi... ya ok didn't bother with the rep its for training. lol
Anything I needed on those toons I simply dropped some EC... Fleet ship no issue drop the 20mil... Want an elachi escort sure buy it... want to put a 3 piece on it why not drop the 200mil ec on keys no big deal. I have spent probaly 800mil ec easy on my roms... I could care less... I did it cause I had fun doing it. lol
However when I PvP I sure as hell don't want to hear... ya ya you beat me with your full rep lockbox ship romulan toon no kidden... Do you ? You like to hear excuses from your prey ?
I joke a bit, just want to be clear... there is NOTHING in this game I don't own that includes doffs boffs ships consoles sets ect... nothing at all... Wait perhaps 3 or 4 zen store ships never tickled my fancy.
Anyone that feels they need to maintain some grind gear advantage over new players... is arguing such to protect there own egos... and that is the only logical reason I can come up with. Feel free to correct me on that.
This is exactly the issue no doubt.
PvP can not survive long term with more and more reps being added. I would have assumed we had already reached the point where new players would simply stop playing... and frankly I think we already have.
People like to point out how many people are in the ques since S7 ect ect... however has anyone really honestly paid any real attention to the people in those ques. 90% of them are there for the daily Dilithium reward... and that's it.
You know what channel in game is larger then Opvp..... if you answered the Channel designed for people to find teams for pvp in which they intend to loose in the most efficient manner... you win the magic space cookie.
I love the part where he says "mega rewards" I wonder if the first to get to T5 will get a "I win" button on a 3 min cooldown which will blow up all enemy ships on the map:eek:
T2 Voth adv subspace jump - every time you are targeted your ship instantly jumps to 20km away
T4 Voth subspace vortex - ability allows the user to transport all enemy player controlled ships to another part of the galaxy and it takes them 5 min to return to the map.
Fun times ahead for Geko's favorite part of the game : PvP:eek:
Darn Elitist hard working veteran players~ We should of been there first! It is their fault! yupyup. Game death to the veteran players!
Plox Cryptic delete all Veteran chars, so I can catch up with the content.
and WC3 is an MMORPG Truth Be Heard!
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
[Holo Emitter - Short Bus]
I think the reps will most likely stop with this last one. I mean this will be the 4th one which will start putting new players off.
I do hope we get passives more in line with the tholian rep though. They were less...creepy.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I understand the OPs feelings
Cryptic makes the gap bigger with each new rep system each new super BO and Doff and right now the Gap is no longer a stream or a river it is a ocean a new player has to cross
PvP right now does not even resemble star trek
Its more like a space fighter game with magic included
In hardly any way does PvP look like a star trek space battles from the shows or movies except a few of the ships look like they were copied from star trek in looks only
You need a joystick from a F15 to fly a ship now they have so much speed and manoverability its really stupid compared to canon
I usge the cryptic team to watch some Tv shows featuring Star Trek Really this game is so far off base in PvP i think a refresher course is needed
and now to top it off the Romulan characters and ships show up with such power over the older Fed and klingon characters it is truly patethic
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I don't know, given how much DS9's come up over the years as influence for the Cryptic Crew...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89WcIwjlQxA
...they probably think they've done a great job with it, eh?
edit: Compare that to...
Nemesis - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQK8ZAQ5usE
The Undiscovered Country - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqCJ-UGYns
That second one is one of my favorite reasons to /facepalm torps in STO too!
I don't think stomping on all the veteran players to make newer less experienced players feel better about themselves is the solution.
On another note, it is true, time gated content is lame and slows things down far too much.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Rep grinds will continue because end game would be dead without them. It keeps the veterans busy. But Reps need to be removed from PvP .... period.
- Judge Aaron Satie
To an extent, it's why it's easier to stand in the middle and stomp on both...while suggesting that split. The new players are insane to think that they should have all the goodies that a vet does - the vet players are insane to think that all the goodies do not make it pointless for the new player to try (and that it's not quite really a case of the new player going through the same thing that the vet did).
PreS7, I'd usually reroll one of my guys every 2-3 weeks. Because PreS7, I could ding in a weekend and have several sets of Mk XI gear or better by the following weekend. It would take a week if that to gear a toon. With S7, there was also the conversion boxes.
Enter S7 with the New Rom/Omega Reps.
A PreS7 toon starting those Reps had an advantage over the S7 toon starting them.
Enter LoR with the Nukara Rep.
A PreS7 toon has an advantage over the S7 toon that has an advantage over the LoR toon.
Here come the Voth and S8!
A PreS7 toon has an advantage over the S7 toon that has an advantage over the LoR toon that has an advantage over the new S8 toon.
The simple fact is that that veteran player never had it as rough as the new player, because the vet player was there during the incremental additions of everything...the new player has to deal with it all at the same time, and they have to catch up with it all.
I had 4 guys PreS7. I chose to reroll them for S7 (wanted a fresh start, wanted to see what it would be like for the new player in comparison - wanted more of a challenge - and yeah, I still kick myself over that...lol/meh. Heck, I kick myself at times for every toon that I deleted for that year before S7...but I refused to pay the 500 Zen for a respec at the time (that's changed since S7)...
...I added 2 more guys with the 3rd Anniversary. I added two guys after that but before LoR to help out with testing mainly (but I started playing them as if they were normal toons). I added the guy with LoR.
I've been tempted to delete all my guys and start over again...but I look at the path there, and well - yeah, I haven't done it. I really want to do it - but I haven't done it. I've got another character slot there that I haven't rolled, because I can't see going through it again.
3 of my 9 guys are T5 New Rom/T5 Omega..1 of them is also T5 Nukara, with the other 2 being T4/T3. Outside of the odd weapon, upgrading the Cores, I'm generally happy with where their gearing is. The other 6 guys? Meh, yeah - no. The 3 KDF usually only do Die25 and the 3 Feds don't go anywhere near PvP outside of doing a quick test for something.
Somewhere down the road, there's the talk of the Cardassians, Liberated Borg, and more - I can't even begin to imagine how far behind new toons for those factions will be...meh.
I've ground my keester off for those 3 guys, and I'll have eventually ground my keester off for the rest of them. So I want that place I can play with all of that jazz...but then there's the 6 other guys, and well - I want a place I can play with them too.
That's why I tend to harp on the doing away with the FvF, FvK, KvK queues - going to a RvB system - and introducing some sort of queue split that addresses starting players vs. vet players.
I don't agree with the new players or alts having to fight against the geared out the wahzoo guys - I don't see how that's fun for the vet players (I don't have any fun on those 3 guys if the target dies before I've finished hitting all the keys for some convoluted alpha I'm trying to pull off), it's a slaughter for the new players...
...but I also don't agree with the separate game thing, where we're all flying Cryptic's idea of how a ship should be (c'mon, who hasn't taken some Excedrin after looking at the Ambassador build during Temporal Ambassador?).
Meh, I need to stop thinking about rerolling all my guys...or maybe I should reroll them. Have to figure I'd end up walking away at that point, and perhaps that's best with where it looks like the game's going with "mega rewards!"
I think they already indicated that they have a few more reps in mind - and I highly expect next year to see a Dominion/cardi/trueway type faction - the 4th biggest faction in the prime universe series.
Home world will be Cardassia - adventure zoen on Cardassia - embassy to build
AND what you have all been asking for: A 5th Rep!!! Cardassian/true way/dominion rep system
I think Number 5 will be the last.
Man imaging starting a new Cardi or Jem'har or even Founder toon and starting 5!!!! Reps from Scratch!!! Yeah I will be doing 10 new toons for sure!! NOT:eek:
(I did 5 rommies)