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I understand now why pvp is dead.
mothermoy
Member Posts: 53 Arc User
So i decide to try out pvp. this game's pvp has reached a tipping point. You either really really have, or you really really dont. and theres nothing that can really be done to save it. its to specialized. the feeling i get, as a new pvper, is you have no chance in hell of ever getting better, there is no learning curve. you are just here so us leet veterans have a target to practice on. My experience is so bad thats im never trying it again. ever. cryptic could dangle a three pack of scimitar ships in front of me, and id tell them where they can shove their TRIBBLE.
ok ill leave now so everyone can tell me how bad i am, or learn to fly. and i wont read a word of it. Just wanting you to have feedback, of why ill never pvp again.
TL;DR the learning curve in pvp is too brutal. to ever get the pvp community to grow, soften it.
ok ill leave now so everyone can tell me how bad i am, or learn to fly. and i wont read a word of it. Just wanting you to have feedback, of why ill never pvp again.
TL;DR the learning curve in pvp is too brutal. to ever get the pvp community to grow, soften it.
Post edited by mothermoy on
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I was already getting annoyed by the state of PvP when the nukara mines were introduced, but now I'm just sick of it. Since PvP is the only reason for me to play STO it probably won't take long anymore until I uninstall it.
I only play for pvp if im not working on the foundry (when I have a working computer lol); in all honesty though, i do take long breaks when I have had enough of cryptics lack of balance, but now i feel like coming back... look forward to hopping into the ambassador (because i love it, not because its the best)
I thank you for bringing up a very true fact, power creep and rep grind does create a larger divide than skill in the case of the majority of the sto community. However, no one can make a decision you haven't chosen yourself already. Wish you best speed and good luck in your future endeavors.
Hopefully this is all that this thread needs as a reply *looks at pvp community*, agreed.
Cheers,
The Tal
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
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I'm afraid your right
I had a 4 month break just before lot release and I figured with a bit of practice ill be able to get into pvp and be as half decent as I was
Wow was I wrong there so many people using Marion and battle cloaks or some sort of 50s hold you in place while I cape you console it's an absolute joke
I think they need to make pvp a desperate thing and take it right back to basics ony allow basic exchange gear or even some sort of pvp gear and no universal consoles aloud that way it would rely on the pilots skill alone and nothing else
Te only way to get ahead in pvp is to buy all the latest I win buttons which according to my estimations would cost you around ?1500 and even then there will be a new bug which people will exploit tomorrow which will goof your build
I do however love the romulans and the pve side of things is great lately
and channel Tyler Durden has been set up for organising matches for players interested in pvp, not stomping pugs.
We attempt to avoid imbalanced matches by shuffling the team composition. It's a controlled environment where you don't have to deal with rampant cheese or afkers (the cheese allowed dependent on consensus reached by players in a match). Teamspeak 3 is provided as well, so that helps with coordinating with the team you're thrown in with.
Don't lose heart, be observant, and communicate with other players.
Zenith Nader - R.R.W. Nader4President - Tactical Rom KDF
Hei Qin - I.K.S. Apex Revenant -Tactical KDF
What? He said he aint coming back...
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Tbh, PvP only has a learning curve as steep or as shallow as you want it to be, it is difficult, it is challenging. The only real reward you get is satisfaction when you get it right.
but, gear maters now. there is a minimum level you need you need, and that minumum is rather high now
-a fleet/lockbox/3pack level ship
-fleet weapons or mkXII acc3
-completed rep grind with all passives
-STF sets, or fleet equipment
-between 50mil to 200mil worth of for space active roster doffs
once you have all that, and you have 4 or 5 keybinds set up, all you need is experience and tactics.
I always value your opinion and once again you hit the nail on the head i try to speak to people and get advice but realistically all it comes down to is grind grind grind
I've been lol 50 on my romy for about 3 weeks and so far. All I have is lol 2 omega and lvl4 romulan rep
Unfortunately I have a life
1: print out the OP in bold 96pt letters.
2: Repeat another 96 times
3: Remove one copy from the stack of pages
4: Read that copy out loud 96 times before and after every office meeting
5: roll up the remaining pages into a nice cylindre tube
6: Get some interns and give them the tube
7: Pay them to keep hitting systems and QnA staff on the head with the tube, until they get it .
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Personally im quite a slow learner in general, i cannot adapt too fast when new stuff comes out (and in particular tryng to implement something effective in my build) but my adapt abilit midst match is pretty good.
I was going to say 'It took me 2 years to fully get the grasp on PvP and all ots mechanics' but reconsidering that im still learning stuff every day.
What is the learning curve?
i think that can both be on a personal level as it can be materialistic.
However, Long term PVEers might already have repped up the rep sys, got the gear they need in order to start at least. Id say that softens the curve a bit.
The idea that having a specific ship or pay2win gear is always a necessity in order to be competitive is only partly true. Dedication and broad minded views will get you a whole bunch farther.
Did i say motivation and no ignorance? What im saying is that people need to learn to adjust and adapt instead of cry about the latest new OP ability. Tweak your builds, observe what others are doing. If you realise and accept that something someone else is using works alot better then what you're doing, you are getting there.
Now you need to go a step ahead and actually try it yourself. If you are simply stubborn and simply dont want to adapt you will probably keep yourself on the crying tour.
I've learned to stop crying way before f2p and p2w got into th picture. I remember i dispised siphon drain builds, and i still do. But back in the day i cried about it, i will admit without hestitation, but now I could care less.
Another personal experience is probably the one that still so many bug players thinking their ship should be godly for a tac. It might very well be, but the other fact of the matter is that within a few months new bug ships will get re released and those will sad but true more Powerful then their fed/kdf predecessors. (Romulan increased crit boffs)
See my point? Sure, lamest way to get people to play romulan and open their new little bug ship in a romulan, i couldnt agree more. Its foul play.
But again, the necessity to adapt is probably a better course of action to take then sit back, wait and whine.
Lets face it , since the release of LoR a whole bunch of ships/builds have become redundant whether you like that or not.
To the OP Zenith has already mentioned that you should join a few of the PvP chat channels.
Please join
OrganizedPvP
and Please join
Tyler Durden
In the TD channel we arrange 5v5 challenge matches where we try our best to balance the sides ourselves before a match. We do have a handful of pretty new players that come along... just let us know where your at be honest and we will try to balance the sides so everyone has some fun... and of course you will learn much faster playing in those types of games.
People in TD will I am sure be willing to give you some pvp advice as well... OrganizedPvP can also help you there. Just be prepared to get 10 different points of view all the time... 9 of which will be pretty much bad advice.
Hope you try again... trust me most of us understand where you are coming from even if we are not new. Cryptic has a bad habit of releasing things that are terrible for PvP balance at every step... it has gotten to the point where vets don't have good games either unless they spend 10 min before every game trying to balance things out before playing.
a.k.a. power creep -- you MUST move beyond standard loot and ships to compete
...which means for players like me, we must stop what we love (PvP) in order to go grind more TRIBBLE (i.e. rep levels etc) to remain competitive.
I wish ships could stand on their own without all these abilities, doff skills, boff skills, console skills etc..
I wish it were a a real strategical combat based upon player tactics, cleverness, wits, wisdom, etc... Instead, we play in STO:Disney World.
Cryptic, why do you believe the Starfleet Command Series of games lived for over a decade even after it was abandoned by it's creators? SFC3 itself, was abandoned even before the first patch due to a lawsuit and it still lasted 7 years. It is because it was not based on being subnuked every 3 minutes, or having a rupture produced every 3 minutes. It was about pure tactics, strategy and where the "real captains" met up to become another Kirk/Picard, Kahless, etc...
Its not like that here.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
So you thought PvP was as unchallenging and skill less as PvE ?
Silly wabbit
Nerfing the PvP players isn't the answer
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
It's the item earning curve that makes the difference between being effective in PvP or not, not the skill learning curve.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
The problem with this game is primarily the curve, not the difficulty curve necessarily, as this game is actually incredibly easy compared to other games, but its more the GEAR curve.
You absolutely must have great gear to pvp seriously at all, the only exception being if you have a group of friends similarly geared, but thats a completely different thing entirely.
The reason why this gear curve is so bad is because you have to do some monumental grinding to get it, and meanwhile you can't really sharpen your pvp skills because you can't be certain the way you died was because of pilot error or because your opponent was using the latest cheese that you don't have yet.
It's the reason I quit, the gear race is ridiculous and a large percentage (not everyone) of people who brag and boast about being a turbo-pro at the game would be worthless without their favorite ship, doffs, and mk xii fleet gear.
Me and my friend tested this theory ALOT, we frequently sparred to test builds and as an experiment, I asked him to mirror my build.
The only difference between him and me in our duel was that his weapons were like 1 MK lower, and he didn't have the doffs that I did.
I wrecked him, and I was untouched, and before you ask yes we are equal on skill level.
THAT is whats wrong.
These days I just get my PvP fix from Dark Souls.
Sadly since returning to this game after a very long layoff I have to agree with you. I remember the good old days where it took an actual skilled pilot to fly a sci ship and a engy cruiser could actually do his job. Escorts took a variety of moves and piloting awareness to stay alive and get his kills as fast as he could. While the part about escorts is still somewhat true for the most part it has become a "total build and gear" thing or bust. I find it comical when I run into these noob bug ship pilots that think they are so good. If you were to pit these same pilots in "fleet" escorts back in season 2 they would get totally stomped and bounced back and forth between spawn points. But for them let ignorance be bliss while our old guard looks back and rolls their eyes at them in pity.
Yeah I already know this game will never be balanced or what it once was blah blah blah. My point is the real pilots have their place in history and nothing can be taken away from them in that regard. I really miss leading and carrying my teams to victory in my old "fleet" escort. Even being able to crossheal and do lead dmg and kills is always the best of both worlds. And keep in mind this was back in a day when tact team didn't even balance shields. LOL! RIP SKILLED STO PVP! And to those long gone pilots who where the best there ever was I salute you!
----=====It's simple! All things being equal I am just hands down better than you!=====----
Life is not fair.
You do what you can with what you got earning the tools to make you better and succeed over others.
Why should a game be any different
The problem with society today people are ego centric if they cant win, they ask mother (complex) to fix everything to their needs instead of investing in knowledge and free thinking and tools to succeed in/within themselves.
Many game have simplified game for these people. To a point where its a one button and no builds, and LAME, Boring, monkey button pusher
What is skill
Simplistic
How fast you can click your button?
or
Having the knowledge to make something different unique giving your self the advantage and knowledge to know your disadvantage. Watching buffs, anticipating, waiting, disabling, running, devastating others. Being unique!
Sto allow you to do option two; it allow you the tool to succeed with your own will to grow. Allowing the true alpha to rain and the children to QQ. The game is more real than other because you never know what can come at anytime but with hard work and knowledge you can overcome any scenario.
Real gratification comes from this everything else is a lie, an illusion.
But
Who wants to learn, work and to succeed anymore?
When everything is handed to you.
true
PVP is not dead because of balance its dead because we have got nothing in 3 yrs.
We need 1 open world map and a mentor program and we will be fine.
Ranking and mentor program would help everyone.
+2 I do agree rep is BS and should be account wide this limits player to one character which is just plain stupid
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate
Speak for yourself. We only go into the queues in any great number when there are no other teams online to fight as a group.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Too many (rookie?) players in the old days (S6ish) would get hit with a SB followed up by an alpha and evaporate. So in their wisdom cryptic decided to add the STF set shields along with the fleet shields plus all the other stupid high sustain and what happened?
Rookie players still explode in seconds. Decent players can tank nearly anything plus the kitchen sink while half asleep in a Tac Escort.
Beam energy drain far too high you say? No worries cryptic added in the rommie beam and the omega weapon set. Now your Tac Cruiser can FaW to his hearts delight in an ESTF and keep pace with or surpass the escorts while the rookie still can't break 2k DPS and the engineer became even more worthless.
EPtS is so stupidly powerful everyone takes it you say? Did I mention it was stupidly powerful...it is OP beyond belief, thats ok Cryptic will make all the other EPtX powers really strong too but don't worry thanks to powercreep everyone gets to rotate a pair! Aux2Batt and/or Doffs FTW! Plus we now have spheres that act as if they did bath salts for added pleasure...
Sadly those rookies are still nearly exactly at the performance level they were at F2P launch but instead of the decent players being capable of out performing two of them now they can outperform five or ten of them combined.
PS my list of stupidly OP since F2P launch that should have been fixed directly and might have prevented us from being in this state. PvE perspective btw (I know wrong forum)
1) Attack Pattern Alpha - it is the cause of all those free tanky additions we have seen.
2) Emergency Power to Shields - reason all those tanky additions have become stupid strong.
3) Dual Heavy Cannons - all upsides no downsides typically speaking.
3 examples of Cryptic refusing to walk anything back. There's some kind of complex where they think once it's in the game they refuse to acknowledge that it might need to be adjusted. Do they feel like that's admitting they're wrong? IDK. Whatever it is, once it's live they're bound to it. I wish they felt bound in the same way by their word.
Welcome to virtually every PvP implementation in every MMO I've ever played. (Yes, someone will always pop in and claim "MMO 'X'" got it right - followed by other PvPers in MMO 'X' that disagree.) There's also players who will believe STO PvP is really screwed because they are a top PvPer in MMO 'X' <--- Thus somehow their PvP experience nand prowess in MMO 'X' should directly translate to STO.
Every PvP implementation in any MMO requires you to learn the tactics that work for you in a particular MMO - as well as the build/power layout that best fits your style. You can try and copy other successful PvPers - and start enjoying some improvement (IE you die less, get some kills); but until you tweak it to a point that really works for you, you may still encounter disappointment - and you may also never really find a build/setup you like which again, will color how you look at STO PvP.
I've been PvPing in MMOs since EQ; and I've yet to find one that really came close to the mythical 'balanced PvP' (and don't get me started on WoW over the years - although I haven't been in WoW since 2008; so I have no clue what its PvP is like post Cataclysm.)
Now, this isn't to say STO PvP doesn't have it issues - it has plenty - and further, Cryptic as a company hasn't really provided that much of a full PvP experience in any of their MMOs going all the way back to their "City pf Hero" days.
That said, in any MMO PvP system like STO, you need to find what works for you, and allows you to enjoy STO PvP as it exists (and if you like, definitely give feedback; but don't expect them to act quickly unless it's a really obvious exploit; and not a mechanic they are wanting to see pushed into PvP for whatever reason, good or bad.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Why? Well, player attack damage in the game tended to be ridiculously high compared to most enemy attacks. Obviously there were exceptions where enemies were just absurdly scary, but as a general rule enemies couldn't dish out more than a quarter what well equipped players could. Enemies also have stupidly high HP compared to players. (does this sound familiar?)
These two things put together made it so that most players could, in early versions, one-shot each other in PvP.... Sorceresses were particularly feared since a cold Sorc could, if they got lucky, one-shot or 2-3 shot the entire enemy team. Also cold Sorcs had the additional benefit of a passive that reduced enemy damage resists. This meant that they did a lot more damage than most magic based builds to enemies with high resists and players almost always had high resists. This isn't to say that Sorcs were OP, just an explanation of why that particular class did well in pvp.
My character Tsin'xing
PvP can be maddening frustrating... i have more than once wanted to throw s**t at the monitor. You can go from being on a run, thinking your s**t don't stink, to 2 days of constant losses.
There are some poor sportsman in the game... to be certain, but trust me when I say... we are not all like that... many want to see PvP Improve. Many want to see more people come to PvP... unfortunately many first timers, or those venturing into PvP for the first time are put off by the very things you mention here. This game doesn't prepare the new pvp'er... its a totally different game...
I was once exactly where you are today... but a good friend convinced me to stay at it... and I've met some incredible people... had some good battles, and some not so good battles... but mostly... i have a lot of laughs, and continue to improve... (btw I still die... a lot)...
Of the channels mentioned, I'd recommend TD as where to find matches. Generally the host sets some ground rules that cuts back on the broken and OP stompfest that can be the queues. But that is not to say that members of oPvP won't help... many will... although sometimes those who enjoy the stomp will try and speak over those wishing to help...
If ya want, you can PM me... I am no PvP God... but am willing to share what little I have.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
The games PVP quality does still suffer from a lack of good instruction towards how the PVP is compared to the fairly easy PVE. (said from experience and understanding of abilities to a moderate point thanks to PVP ironically)
I've said for years I wished that the PVE was a bit more PVP like. And the Romulan Elachi combats actually kind of are. I find those fights to be some of the more difficult battles in those lower levels and wonder why the rest of the PVE isn't more like that. At least in space. Ground.. well.. to be fair I don't do to well with shooters, even with the RPG controls turned on and typically get lost and killed frequently during the Elachi encounters.. A lot of it feels more like a spam fest of weird stuff then true combat. But they are more difficult to fight on the ground it feels then even the Borg.
But yes, the game needs better ways to teach its players proper offense and defense techniques as a player gets higher level to help prepare them for PVP. Yes, PVP Bootcamp is a great resource. I'm sure if used right, the foundry could be used as a PVP teaching tool as well. It would just be nice if at the higher levels some things became mandatory for survival. Just like how in other games some things are important, but taught to you.. Such as a Tank being able to understand how to use his "Tanky" abilities properly. Or a healer understanding how his heals will work.. Or a damage dealer understanding how to deal the best damage. It all feels, in STO, like something that you have to learn from other players because the Devs don't want to teach you that stuff.
Now am I saying it is wrong for the community to be as involved in teaching PVP to the newer generation? Not at all. But some things that feel so basic to a PVPer now a adays are some things that should be used in general PVE survival tactics. Such as Emergency power to shields and Tactical Team 1. Hazard Emitters vs. Plasma Dots. Batteries vs. Subsystem Disables.
Some of the romulan tutorial and later missions do inform some nice basic things.. Like how to use your cloak. Or gives some advice concerning power settings. (I almost consider all missions on the romulan side up till the late 20's to be Tutorial some times) But there are some basic things that players don't always get to experience in the later levels in the normal game play from older missions they might need to learn as well.. such as how to use SNB as a Sci. When to use EPS or Nadion if your an Engineer. How effective speed can be in survival as an Escort, or squishy ship. (like the Shuttles)
All of which are important for PVP. And gateways to avoiding situations that start threads like these. After which is going to be the flavor of the month rants, tirades, and bashing. Such as the new Subspace Integration Circuit, or Gravimetric Pulse for example. Both examples of which could use some tuning to bring the game balance down slightly from must haves, to useful, if not annoying, tools.
What I'm trying to say, after all of the above information, is that I agree the game's PVP can be difficult to get into. Obvious reasoning behind threads like these popping up occasionally. But who is really to blame here? The player for never having experienced how PVP can be because of what was experienced in PVE, or the Development for never having given the Players the understanding of their own game while continuing to introduce more and more ways to cause that confusing and frustration to build?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I think you misunderstand. I have done plenty of other ground missions..
(Hell I remember when Infected wasn't 2 Queue missions, but one long and honestly fun mission. If you couldn't jump in the final ground boss fight.. you died :P)
The newest ones with the Elachi I die more often due to the newest ways their attacks work thanks to Neverwinter. I some times forget to look for the Red cones of doom from some attacks from Turrets or some boss effects. Or I'll get caught in the plasma blasts of one of their weird Walking Flame turrets. Other PVE, including the BORG I have an easier time with, because they were created much earlier.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku