so the best solution, is to make it still usefull in pve, without nerfing it to death to make it usefull/accepteble for pvp?
Here's the thing - it isn't very useful in PvE now. It just isn't. I can think of a few limited applications, but by and large NPCs don't use heals for survival, and thus won't really be killed any faster when under the effects of a power that prevents them from activating any abilities. At best, you're getting a reduction to enemy firepower from the perception debuff, but even then, in many cases, it's not making a significant difference.
Paradoxically, the fact that it already provides marginal PvE benefit should make it even easier to nerf for PvP play, as PvE players likely wouldn't notice the nerf if it wasn't pointed out to them.
In PvP, though, the effect is a killer. A ship that gets ganked with one of these in combination with some form of speed debuff is likely dead, with basically no recourse. Not only that, but they are dead in an incredibly un-fun way - they can't use any powers, so they can't even attempt to save themselves, they just have to sit and watch it happen. That's bad. Some players might not mind, because the feeling of helpless impotence in PvP is nothing new to them, but for many players, there is a big difference between "Shoot, I didn't get my heal off in time" and "ARGH! I just have to sit here and die?!". In both cases, you lose, but one of them is much more rewarding play than the other.
so keep it the way it is, or do private matches,its not far that a group of pvp players who cant handle a console thrown at them, gonna dictate the policy for everyone else, i havent seen a nerf this please cry out for it on the pve forums, so why this dictatorship from the pvp side??
so, why if so much pvpers dislike the use of the consle,why dont make a private pvp match, and make the agreement to not use it?
First of all, stop pretending PvPers have any kind of control over the game. If that were the case, PvP would not have languished on the back-burner basically from day one. Second, why is it fair that PvE players who likely won't ever be exposed to the effects of the power themselves get to decide that PvP players have to put up with it? Put simply, if you're not willing to give this power to NPCs to use against you, then you have no business talking about how its fair to expose other players to it.
Third, private matches simply further ghetto-ize the pvp community. It makes the barrier for new players even higher, as they have to either find an established group to play with, or the have to brave the cheese-infested queues.
if you go to kerrat, or the normal qeues, right after a new console is out, you just know you will get hit by it. and even if people know they will get hit, and they know that there is a solution aviable ( pri-vate qeue-s! ! ! ) but still refuse to use it, but instead complain on the forums,then i dont know where this is gonna end, how about no weapons no gear and console's, and just look to the screen, knowingly on the other end of the line another guy is doing the same?
thats no pvp, thats no game, there is a solution, why dont use it?
First, people don't stop using broken things just because they get old. If that were the case, we wouldn't see so many people still using GPG, TIF, etc. Yes, people spam new stuff when it comes out, but often that stuff is largely terrible, or terribly used, and so it goes away. Some stuff, however, is so obviously good that it becomes a new staple - it's early days, but I suspect I know which category this will fall into.
Second, the slippery slope argument has never been particularly good, unless you presuppose that people are unable to discern the difference between nerfing an obviously OP power and removing every ability from the game. And, honestly, if you aren't capable of that level of discernment, I'm not that interested in your opinion anymore.
Third, I do agree with you that a game where you can't use your powers (because they are greyed out) and you can't use your weapons (because you can only see your own ship) is no fun. Hence, resistance to this console.
its the same as with the stf leech problem, people keep complaining about it, and refuse to use the channels specially created for it, and whats the outcome? they are cutting in there own fingers.disabling youreself is more worse as being disabled by someone else.
No, actually, it's not the STF leech problem at all - STF leeches don't actively make my game un-fun. Second, see above for the reasons forcing PvP into private matches is a bad idea - if you want a distinction between the PvP world and the STF world, I can give you an easy one - population. If I want to do an STF, there are enough players that I can expect to reliably put a team together for that. PvP is not the same story, and your solution would only make that problem worse.
How can you and others call for this to be nerfed hard and not for a heavy nerf of TIF?
people group up in arena all the time and spam TIF like its going out of style - why not nerf that to hell and back?
Okay, so, I'm going to go full professor mode here. This is a simply terrible argument. It's not even an argument, it's a sham rhetorical device masquerading as one. If one of my students made this argument in class, I would call his/her parents and instruct them to love their child less.
The first answer to it is that you have no idea what my opinion on TIF is, since it didn't come up in the discussion, so please stop acting like there is any kind of hypocrisy here.
The second answer is even if I was being a hypocrite on that issue (and I'm not), that doesn't delegitimize my argument here, so its irrelevant.
The third answer is that there is a fairly significant difference between a power that increases cooldowns on powers once they activate, and one that prevents them from being activated in the first place, so it's not clear that the two powers are directly analogous.
The fourth answer is that I do, in fact, think TIF could use some tweaking, but bearing in mind the points above, I would say that it's not on the same order as this, nor is it germane to this discussion.
so the best solution, is to make it still usefull in pve, without nerfing it to death to make it usefull/accepteble for pvp?
so keep it the way it is, or do private matches,its not far that a group of pvp players who cant handle a console thrown at them, gonna dictate the policy for everyone else, i havent seen a nerf this please cry out for it on the pve forums, so why this dictatorship from the pvp side??
so, why if so much pvpers dislike the use of the consle,why dont make a private pvp match, and make the agreement to not use it?
if you go to kerrat, or the normal qeues, right after a new console is out, you just know you will get hit by it. and even if people know they will get hit, and they know that there is a solution aviable ( pri-vate qeue-s! ! ! ) but still refuse to use it, but instead complain on the forums,then i dont know where this is gonna end, how about no weapons no gear and console's, and just look to the screen, knowingly on the other end of the line another guy is doing the same?
thats no pvp, thats no game, there is a solution, why dont use it?
its the same as with the stf leech problem, people keep complaining about it, and refuse to use the channels specially created for it, and whats the outcome? they are cutting in there own fingers.disabling youreself is more worse as being disabled by someone else.
so, Opvp, or Td, are there both to make private matches, so go ahead and join it, or dont pvp until you find it in youreself to be a grown up men, and just play the game as it is, also, who does force you to login or pvp, no one, so more as 1 solution aviable, wait until the new console wave is gone.
i get hit aswell, i know what the console does, still, i pvp, why? cuz i dont care,and i know that this is the console of the moment,and that in a few weeks its old and people swap it for something else again. and, its not that big of a game breaker either, but yeah, the more people gonna cry about it, the worser it looks.
Well you don't care because you use all that stuff, I don't. I also don't want to only be restricted to private matches, I like being able to go to kerrat or queues whenever I want so I don't have to wait. So in order for the PVP there to be made more playable, I will use my right as a paying customer to leave my feedback on what it will take to ensure I remain a paying customer. I don't care if this console remains OP in pve, but it needs its effectiveness against players severely reduced for me to remain a paying customer.
Well if they are going to nerf this then they better nerf TIF to!!
And Grav Pulse and a few more consoles - and some super cheesy pets as well
Heck I won't except a nerf of this console until they nerf half the stuff in the game!!
PVP would be 10x better if all of those console abilities were nerfed, I support nerfs on those also, pvp should just be about weapons and boff abilities.
this is what i mean, i dont mind adjustments, i dont like nerf, with evasives and such still accesseble, the problem is solved, and indeed it did say boff power, nothing about captain powers, i think most people can agree,that this small adjustment/bug fix, would actueally be enough to let it still have its purpose in pvp, and pve. great solution, i vote for this one
What that guy said is pretty much the same as what we mean by a nerf. A bit of misunderstanding on your part earlier?
But like with using the Tholian Web Mines with 125 Aux and Dispersal Pattern Beta 3, I know I'd feel cheap if I ever used it in PvP.
DPB3 means giving up APO3...a loss of 10% damage on all your other attacks.
DPB3 drops 8 mines. DPB2 drops 6 mines. DPB1 drops 4 mines. No DBP is 2 mines.
Aux doesn't affect the damage directly. If you've got the T4 Nukara Passive Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense, then the boost to Starship Weapons Training will boost the damage. The boost to Starship Projectile Weapons will not boost it - Starship Projectile Weapons doesn't boost the Web Mine damage (SWP is +Kinetic, the mines are Physical). Likewise, Mine Consoles will not boost it. Even the 2pc T'varo +10% does not apply.
They are boosted by +15% if Cloaked.
They are boosted by +25% if you're doing a Romulan Ambush.
They are boosted by +50% if you're using APA3.
They are boosted by +15-25% if you're using APO1/3.
Base damage is 661.2 every 0.5s for 4s. 5289.6 Physical Damage every 4s per Mine. Again, a normal use is 2 Mines and the DPB3 is 8 Mines - so if all 8 Mines landed on the target, then you'd be looking at a base damage of 42316.8...which isn't taking into account the split between shields/hull.
Before looking at that though, let's buff them up some, eh? Compare the APO3/DPB2 vs. APO1/DPB3 along with some other boosts. Let's give the guy 99 Starship Weapon Training, the T2 Omega Passive - Omega Weapon Training (+30 Weapon Training), and that T4 Nukara Passive - Aux Power Config - Offense (+25 Weapon Training @125 Aux).
Okay, so then - APO1/DPB3 vs. APO3/DPB2.
w/ APO1 = 2223.57 * 8 * 8 = 142308.48
w/ APO3 = 2340.6 * 8 * 6 = 112348.8
So yes, DPB3 w/ APO1 obviously does more damage with the Mines than DPB2 w/ APO3 - it's just a question of if you want to lose out on the +10% additional damage on your other 6-7 weapons.
Get a chain Crit with 100% Crit Severity and double that damage.
Not sure how Res/non-Res shields treat the damage. Res shields take 90% of Energy Damage but they take 95% of Kinetic Damage...with Physical Damage? Hrmm...don't know. Then apply the 50% Shield Penetration like you would the 40% from Trans...yeah, suffice to say though - yep, you're looking at a lot of damage if all 8 mines land. If you're a Tac...doing a Rom Ambush...have the Passives...etc, etc, etc.
Yep, that number above - 142308.48 - is pretty big, even if it is over 4s.
My Sci guy that drops them? 97909.76 over 4s. 44398.72 less damage because he's not a Tac using APA3 or using the Rom Ambush to drop them.
The problem is not with the mines - the problem is with the way there is no scaling on Tac buffs to damage.
+50% on 1 point of damage takes it to 1.5...
+50% on 10000 points of damage takes it to 15000...
It's kind of like looking at DHCs vs. Beam Arrays. DHCs do 1.74:1 the damage of Beam Arrays. So at the base, that's 174:100. If your Arrays were doing 2000 damage, your DHCs would be doing 3480. If your Arrays crit for 4000, your DHCs would crit for 6960.
You went from a difference of +74 to +1480 to +2960. The ratio remains the same - but the value of the amount from that ratio will just keep growing and growing...creating a larger and larger disparity.
You're going to see the same thing with the Web Mines, if somebody's got APA3 or not. That ratio may remain the same...but yeah, the damage difference will be eye opening.
One could say then, well...one could ask, should a Tac feel cheap for being a Tac?
Well you don't care because you use all that stuff, I don't. I also don't want to only be restricted to private matches, I like being able to go to kerrat or queues whenever I want so I don't have to wait. So in order for the PVP there to be made more playable, I will use my right as a paying customer to leave my feedback on what it will take to ensure I remain a paying customer. I don't care if this console remains OP in pve, but it needs its effectiveness against players severely reduced for me to remain a paying customer.
qeustion, why does everyone here make false statements "all that stuff"i dont use "all thqat stuff" yes, i do have the console equipped , thats correct, if thats the qeustion?
ow wait, there was no qeustion asked, only statements,and "all" suggest more then 1, nope, i only have this console equipped, whats "all" if i may ask?
if you dont want to be restricted, and you dont want to be targeted with it, dont pvp,if you like going to kerrat do so, but the moment you warp in, you also kind of agree with being targeted with consoles, dont want being targeted with the console? dont go then.
if you steal a watch, and you get caught with it, do you also say "well, i want that watch, but not being caught, so let me go? " same thing.
if you choose something, you also choose the qonseqeunses with it.also, youre "paying customer" title doesnt give you the right to decide everything sure drop youre feedback, but, youre "paying" is nothing compared to what those console's bring into the pocket of cryptic, so they dont care.for you 10 others who arent so difficult like some people pretend to be here.
and kerrat is playeble, the normal qeue's aswell, but people make a big problem of this console, and a few others,and yeah, then you dont feel comfty in the qeue's, cuz they use it there, so what? youre free to leave youre feedback, everyone is, everyone is also free to pvp or not, just like i'm free to use that console as it is right now, like a lot of others.
As an aside, speaking of TIF...I don't remember seeing anything in the notes - but it stopped causing me to desync not that long ago - thanks, Cryptic. (I didn't change anything on my side, so I figure they had to have done something that changed it.)
qeustion, why does everyone here make false statements "all that stuff"i dont use "all thqat stuff" yes, i do have the console equipped , thats correct, if thats the qeustion?
ow wait, there was no qeustion asked, only statements,and "all" suggest more then 1, nope, i only have this console equipped, whats "all" if i may ask?
if you dont want to be restricted, and you dont want to be targeted with it, dont pvp,if you like going to kerrat do so, but the moment you warp in, you also kind of agree with being targeted with consoles, dont want being targeted with the console? dont go then.
if you steal a watch, and you get caught with it, do you also say "well, i want that watch, but not being caught, so let me go? " same thing.
if you choose something, you also choose the qonseqeunses with it.also, youre "paying customer" title doesnt give you the right to decide everything sure drop youre feedback, but, youre "paying" is nothing compared to what those console's bring into the pocket of cryptic, so they dont care.for you 10 others who arent so difficult like some people pretend to be here.
and kerrat is playeble, the normal qeue's aswell, but people make a big problem of this console, and a few others,and yeah, then you dont feel comfty in the qeue's, cuz they use it there, so what? youre free to leave youre feedback, everyone is, everyone is also free to pvp or not, just like i'm free to use that console as it is right now, like a lot of others.
Aren't you the one linking all the other elachi lockbox stuff in OPvP? So isn't it reasonable to assume you are using just about everything?
Have fun destroying whats left of pvp out of your own pure selfishness while I try to save it by using my feedback to help get things balanced. And I do spend a lot on everything else, just not this lockbox.
qeustion, why does everyone here make false statements "all that stuff"i dont use "all thqat stuff" yes, i do have the console equipped , thats correct, if thats the qeustion?
ow wait, there was no qeustion asked, only statements,and "all" suggest more then 1, nope, i only have this console equipped, whats "all" if i may ask?
if you dont want to be restricted, and you dont want to be targeted with it, dont pvp,if you like going to kerrat do so, but the moment you warp in, you also kind of agree with being targeted with consoles, dont want being targeted with the console? dont go then.
if you steal a watch, and you get caught with it, do you also say "well, i want that watch, but not being caught, so let me go? " same thing.
if you choose something, you also choose the qonseqeunses with it.also, youre "paying customer" title doesnt give you the right to decide everything sure drop youre feedback, but, youre "paying" is nothing compared to what those console's bring into the pocket of cryptic, so they dont care.for you 10 others who arent so difficult like some people pretend to be here.
and kerrat is playeble, the normal qeue's aswell, but people make a big problem of this console, and a few others,and yeah, then you dont feel comfty in the qeue's, cuz they use it there, so what? youre free to leave youre feedback, everyone is, everyone is also free to pvp or not, just like i'm free to use that console as it is right now, like a lot of others.
You know what has always been a compelling argument to me? "If she wasn't asking for it, why would she wear that skirt?"
No, playing PvP does not mean that I signed up to be griefed by people using OP powers, nor does it mean that I should have an obligation to try to win at all costs by using those selfsame powers.
I am curious, though - outside of PvP, what is the benefit of this console for players? If it did nothing at all except the fairly cool FX animation, how would that change its actual value in PvE?
I can get behind a nerf for the console. I call it the Baseball of Doom for a reason (one being that its icon looks like a baseball). I just got it today and 1v1ed a few people, here are the results.
I battled an engie in an assault cruiser, decloaked on him, and then proceeded to render him helpless with the Baseball + tractor beam while my Defiant ripped him to shreds.
I battled a sci in a Korath (might've been the Krenn... doesn't matter really). Decloaked on her, rendered her helpless with the Baseball + tractor beam, while my Defiant ripped her to shreds.
I battled a B'Rel retrofit, captain class I don't know. I started decloaked as he dropped torpedoes on me, and then I caught him in a tractor beam as he was firing, disabling his cloak. I proceeded to render him helpless with the Baseball, and my Defiant ripped him to shreds.
I battled a Scimitar, decloaked, rendered him helpless, while in a matter of seconds my Defiant ripped him to shreds.
And then I've been on the receiving end numerous times also, rendered helpless while a BoP or something pounds their cannons on me.
It was all very cheesey and just seemed like a cheap victory.
It's simply ridiculous that I can render you helpless for so long with this thing. There isn't much use in PvE, except that it cancels Donatra's thelaron while it's charging.
console is good as it is, so leave it the way it is..
its a once in 3 minute abbility, and the whole pvp community needs to fall over it again....
dont remember some of you are responseble for the disruptor nerf aswell???
easy, dont like it, make a premade that exclude's it.
you go to kerrat or the normal qeue's?
then youre asking to get it by the new console/abillity of the moment.
secondly:
fix the elachi torpedo, i dont know if its a tooltip bug or not, but hy and ts remove the 10% to disable a ship for the small 2,4 seconds. so fixx it pls so it works with ts and hy aswell.
I agree this gentlemen. Stop crying about it. Either get one or deal with it. It has a 3 minute cool down.
I agree this gentlemen. Stop crying about it. Either get one or deal with it. It has a 3 minute cool down.
And as others have said in this thread, that attitude destroys PvP. Using every cheap trick in the book destroys PvP, nobody cares if it's 'in the game, therefore meant to be used'. It will still drive people away.
When I was doing the Die25 in a Marauder (trying to find new and interesting ways to do that) - it was amazing how fast folks were obliterating one another. With most things, 1-2s is going to give folks time to do all sorts of things to deal with a potential vape. This though...they just pop.
Some folks even bragged about it being a fun new way for them to grief folks in Ker'rat. They don't even attack the person - they just wrap them in dark poo matter and let the Borg kill them.
And as others have said in this thread, that attitude destroys PvP. Using every cheap trick in the book destroys PvP, nobody cares if it's 'in the game, therefore meant to be used'. It will still drive people away.
You sir have stumbled upon something that has been in the works for awhile now - I suggest you keep quiet or the men in black suits will be knocking at your door - sshh.
Y'know, this console is really only 'that bad', not as much for the effects (not trying to downplay them, they are pretty damn bad), but more that...everyone is getting them. At least TIF has the courtesy of being behind a 600 lobi paywall.
I hate to say it, but...
...
...
...I wish the Feds had gotten AAs, and Klingons gotten some other console, instead of anybody getting this thing.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
AS if the Nukara mines when they came out weren't bad enough...TIF is still here and so is a bunch of other SPAM. This game has become ...
SPAM TREK ONLINE
before it was 'escorts online' but has now evolved into something more hideous.
nerf cant come soon enough...Maybe it SHOULDNT shut down your tray so at the very least you could defend yourself. Right now its a 20 second PSW and Jam Sensors combined with a gravity well all wrapped up into 1 console anyone can equip without being spec'd into anything. Literally who comes up with this TRIBBLE?
Someone who can't see the forest for the trees has typically become so focused on details that he or she begins to ignore the overall situation.
*
You know what has always been a compelling argument to me? "If she wasn't asking for it, why would she wear that skirt?"
No, playing PvP does not mean that I signed up to be griefed by people using OP powers, nor does it mean that I should have an obligation to try to win at all costs by using those selfsame powers.
I am curious, though - outside of PvP, what is the benefit of this console for players? If it did nothing at all except the fairly cool FX animation, how would that change its actual value in PvE?
it does at the end a fair amount of kinetic damage, so even if a npc doesnt have or use boff powers that can be disabled, it will still do kinetic damage to him on colapse,and it masks you and other allies for a couple seconds.also make's that most ships ( except donatra, filthy cheat can claock always XD ) cannot cloack,other then that, i cant come up with more,
but, why all the hate to the people using them? i mean, we didnt design it, we didnt ask for this console, cryptic make's it and brings it in the game, i dont mind its in there, but why hate people who use it, its like hating the gun, not the hired assassin. ( i know lockbox console's are some kind of secret, because they dont show 1 week before on the test server) without a "proper"test, and without a period some players can test it, i do think that next time a new console find its way t the game, that a certain amount of people, or prefereble everyone, can test it on tribble, this will make that less people qq when its online on holo, but that if needed, it can be adjusted before it come's over to holo.isnt that a solution?
Aren't you the one linking all the other elachi lockbox stuff in OPvP? So isn't it reasonable to assume you are using just about everything?
Have fun destroying whats left of pvp out of your own pure selfishness while I try to save it by using my feedback to help get things balanced. And I do spend a lot on everything else, just not this lockbox.
sure i have linked it sometime's, who doesnt linked it? aah yes right, people who doesnt use it, sorry my bad. i also indeed linked it a few time's for people who asked for a link, ignoring that is kinda rude yha know?so, grats on youre good memory.
i dont destroy pvp,it destroys its own.blaming me for the so called "destruction of pvp" is like blaming the jews for WW2.
i think that the only thing that destroys pvp is the people setting rules for others, i use this console, so i'm conciderd a "cheat", i have the need to defend myself against this false accusation, and we have a whole discussion here, with all this need to decide if people may or may not use a console or abbility,people generate splinter cells, and that,that destroys pvp.
you dont like this console, i dont like tif, another person doesnt like EWP, everyone like's or dislike's something, but people have free will and so people can make a choice, i choice to fight things regarding i dont like them or like them, others decide to set rules for others,i let who is right in the middle for a second.but thats how i feel about it.
solution is easy, so no need to worry:
stop deciding what people can use or not, so the pvp community doesnt splinter.
also, i dont feel the need to restrict myself from using abbility's and console's other people cant handle, they either take it like a men, or they dont pvp, easy enough.
At least if Feds did get AA, that would at least allow me to say, 'well, a lot of Feds won't know how to effectively use it aside from 'spam it every time it comes up''. *le sigh*
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The new Console is the closest thing I have seen to a "I Win" console. I have watched someone tank multiple enemy ships in Ker'rat with no trouble wile I was cloaked. I used this console wile Cloaked with a B"rel and the person dies quickly with those ships attacking him.
The new Console is the closest thing I have seen to a "I Win" console. I have watched someone tank multiple enemy ships in Ker'rat with no trouble wile I was cloaked. I used this console wile Cloaked with a B"rel and the person dies quickly with those ships attacking him.
There's a lot of active tanking (whether abilities or simple movement) - take that away - things pop pretty easy.
but, why all the hate to the people using them? i mean, we didnt design it, we didnt ask for this console, cryptic make's it and brings it in the game, i dont mind its in there, but why hate people who use it, its like hating the gun, not the hired assassin.
You've got your analogy completely upside-down. You made the choice to use the OP thing once it exists. Same thing as being in a wrestling match for fun, and then someone puts a gun on the mat. You are the player who makes the choice to pick up the gun and use it to win. It's not like Cryptic mandatorily puts the console on every ship and forces its use. You made the choice to use it. Therefore the hate. The fact is that you have a choice whether you care about the feelings of other players, and whether you don't care and just want to use some blatantly unbalanced tool to win.
You didn't ask for it, but you took it and used it anyway. And that is sufficient for culpability right there.
i dont destroy pvp,it destroys its own.blaming me for the so called "destruction of pvp" is like blaming the jews for WW2.
Another completely irrelevant analogy. Again, your choice, take the heat.
i think that the only thing that destroys pvp is the people setting rules for others, i use this console, so i'm conciderd a "cheat", i have the need to defend myself against this false accusation, and we have a whole discussion here, with all this need to decide if people may or may not use a console or abbility,people generate splinter cells, and that,that destroys pvp.
We're not setting any rules for you. We are not considering you a cheat. No one mentioned that. But we are sure as hell going to call you unsporting.
Furthermore, you make the choice to use something unbalanced. Newer PvPers may see you use the console and be driven out, due to blatant use of something unbalanced, reducing player population. Hence, you too receive some of the blame. Simple as that.
you dont like this console, i dont like tif, another person doesnt like EWP, everyone like's or dislike's something, but people have free will and so people can make a choice, i choice to fight things regarding i dont like them or like them, others decide to set rules for others,i let who is right in the middle for a second.but thats how i feel about it.
solution is easy, so no need to worry:
Free will? Yes, we too are exercising our free will and speech to deem your use of this tool to be unsporting.
stop deciding what people can use or not, so the pvp community doesnt splinter.
And if everyone just used whatever they wanted? The queues would be even deader than they are now. Can you imagine? All players, speccing into Graviton Pulse, this stupid beachball, TIF, doffed Scramble and using T'Varos with full Romulan crews. I'll take a splintered community over that scenario - because face it, even a splintered community is better than not having one at all.
also, i dont feel the need to restrict myself from using abbility's and console's other people cant handle, they either take it like a men, or they dont pvp, easy enough.
How about you take the criticism like a man instead? Simple logic - You use an unbalanced console - We see it as unsporting - We criticise you. Don't like people yelling at you for using something unbalanced? Well, take your own advice and man up.
No problem with this console? Don't you dare QQ if it gets used on you and you get killed every time. Because if I see someone using something I deem unbalanced, all the cheese in my inventory gets loaded up, BoFFs get switched out, and I go hunting. And that person is going to have very special attention. And we'll see how fun a fight like that is. If I lose? No prob, I'm not exactly used to using that stuff. But if this can show a player how unfun the unbalanced stuff is, mission complete.
Comments
Here's the thing - it isn't very useful in PvE now. It just isn't. I can think of a few limited applications, but by and large NPCs don't use heals for survival, and thus won't really be killed any faster when under the effects of a power that prevents them from activating any abilities. At best, you're getting a reduction to enemy firepower from the perception debuff, but even then, in many cases, it's not making a significant difference.
Paradoxically, the fact that it already provides marginal PvE benefit should make it even easier to nerf for PvP play, as PvE players likely wouldn't notice the nerf if it wasn't pointed out to them.
In PvP, though, the effect is a killer. A ship that gets ganked with one of these in combination with some form of speed debuff is likely dead, with basically no recourse. Not only that, but they are dead in an incredibly un-fun way - they can't use any powers, so they can't even attempt to save themselves, they just have to sit and watch it happen. That's bad. Some players might not mind, because the feeling of helpless impotence in PvP is nothing new to them, but for many players, there is a big difference between "Shoot, I didn't get my heal off in time" and "ARGH! I just have to sit here and die?!". In both cases, you lose, but one of them is much more rewarding play than the other.
First of all, stop pretending PvPers have any kind of control over the game. If that were the case, PvP would not have languished on the back-burner basically from day one. Second, why is it fair that PvE players who likely won't ever be exposed to the effects of the power themselves get to decide that PvP players have to put up with it? Put simply, if you're not willing to give this power to NPCs to use against you, then you have no business talking about how its fair to expose other players to it.
Third, private matches simply further ghetto-ize the pvp community. It makes the barrier for new players even higher, as they have to either find an established group to play with, or the have to brave the cheese-infested queues.
First, people don't stop using broken things just because they get old. If that were the case, we wouldn't see so many people still using GPG, TIF, etc. Yes, people spam new stuff when it comes out, but often that stuff is largely terrible, or terribly used, and so it goes away. Some stuff, however, is so obviously good that it becomes a new staple - it's early days, but I suspect I know which category this will fall into.
Second, the slippery slope argument has never been particularly good, unless you presuppose that people are unable to discern the difference between nerfing an obviously OP power and removing every ability from the game. And, honestly, if you aren't capable of that level of discernment, I'm not that interested in your opinion anymore.
Third, I do agree with you that a game where you can't use your powers (because they are greyed out) and you can't use your weapons (because you can only see your own ship) is no fun. Hence, resistance to this console.
No, actually, it's not the STF leech problem at all - STF leeches don't actively make my game un-fun. Second, see above for the reasons forcing PvP into private matches is a bad idea - if you want a distinction between the PvP world and the STF world, I can give you an easy one - population. If I want to do an STF, there are enough players that I can expect to reliably put a team together for that. PvP is not the same story, and your solution would only make that problem worse.
How can you and others call for this to be nerfed hard and not for a heavy nerf of TIF?
people group up in arena all the time and spam TIF like its going out of style - why not nerf that to hell and back?
We did. There's a reason why it's banned from most tournaments. Unfortunately, most of our complaints are for naught. We gave up.
Okay, so, I'm going to go full professor mode here. This is a simply terrible argument. It's not even an argument, it's a sham rhetorical device masquerading as one. If one of my students made this argument in class, I would call his/her parents and instruct them to love their child less.
The first answer to it is that you have no idea what my opinion on TIF is, since it didn't come up in the discussion, so please stop acting like there is any kind of hypocrisy here.
The second answer is even if I was being a hypocrite on that issue (and I'm not), that doesn't delegitimize my argument here, so its irrelevant.
The third answer is that there is a fairly significant difference between a power that increases cooldowns on powers once they activate, and one that prevents them from being activated in the first place, so it's not clear that the two powers are directly analogous.
The fourth answer is that I do, in fact, think TIF could use some tweaking, but bearing in mind the points above, I would say that it's not on the same order as this, nor is it germane to this discussion.
Well you don't care because you use all that stuff, I don't. I also don't want to only be restricted to private matches, I like being able to go to kerrat or queues whenever I want so I don't have to wait. So in order for the PVP there to be made more playable, I will use my right as a paying customer to leave my feedback on what it will take to ensure I remain a paying customer. I don't care if this console remains OP in pve, but it needs its effectiveness against players severely reduced for me to remain a paying customer.
PVP would be 10x better if all of those console abilities were nerfed, I support nerfs on those also, pvp should just be about weapons and boff abilities.
What that guy said is pretty much the same as what we mean by a nerf. A bit of misunderstanding on your part earlier?
DPB3 means giving up APO3...a loss of 10% damage on all your other attacks.
DPB3 drops 8 mines. DPB2 drops 6 mines. DPB1 drops 4 mines. No DBP is 2 mines.
Aux doesn't affect the damage directly. If you've got the T4 Nukara Passive Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense, then the boost to Starship Weapons Training will boost the damage. The boost to Starship Projectile Weapons will not boost it - Starship Projectile Weapons doesn't boost the Web Mine damage (SWP is +Kinetic, the mines are Physical). Likewise, Mine Consoles will not boost it. Even the 2pc T'varo +10% does not apply.
They are boosted by +15% if Cloaked.
They are boosted by +25% if you're doing a Romulan Ambush.
They are boosted by +50% if you're using APA3.
They are boosted by +15-25% if you're using APO1/3.
Base damage is 661.2 every 0.5s for 4s. 5289.6 Physical Damage every 4s per Mine. Again, a normal use is 2 Mines and the DPB3 is 8 Mines - so if all 8 Mines landed on the target, then you'd be looking at a base damage of 42316.8...which isn't taking into account the split between shields/hull.
Before looking at that though, let's buff them up some, eh? Compare the APO3/DPB2 vs. APO1/DPB3 along with some other boosts. Let's give the guy 99 Starship Weapon Training, the T2 Omega Passive - Omega Weapon Training (+30 Weapon Training), and that T4 Nukara Passive - Aux Power Config - Offense (+25 Weapon Training @125 Aux).
Base 661.2
+ (661.2 * (154 * 0.5) / 100) = 1170.3 (Starship Weapon Training)
+ (1170.3 * 0.5) = 1755.45 (APA3)
+ (1170.3 * 0.25) = 2048.025 (Romulan Ambush)
Okay, so then - APO1/DPB3 vs. APO3/DPB2.
w/ APO1 = 2223.57 * 8 * 8 = 142308.48
w/ APO3 = 2340.6 * 8 * 6 = 112348.8
So yes, DPB3 w/ APO1 obviously does more damage with the Mines than DPB2 w/ APO3 - it's just a question of if you want to lose out on the +10% additional damage on your other 6-7 weapons.
Get a chain Crit with 100% Crit Severity and double that damage.
Not sure how Res/non-Res shields treat the damage. Res shields take 90% of Energy Damage but they take 95% of Kinetic Damage...with Physical Damage? Hrmm...don't know. Then apply the 50% Shield Penetration like you would the 40% from Trans...yeah, suffice to say though - yep, you're looking at a lot of damage if all 8 mines land. If you're a Tac...doing a Rom Ambush...have the Passives...etc, etc, etc.
Yep, that number above - 142308.48 - is pretty big, even if it is over 4s.
My Sci guy that drops them? 97909.76 over 4s. 44398.72 less damage because he's not a Tac using APA3 or using the Rom Ambush to drop them.
The problem is not with the mines - the problem is with the way there is no scaling on Tac buffs to damage.
+50% on 1 point of damage takes it to 1.5...
+50% on 10000 points of damage takes it to 15000...
It's kind of like looking at DHCs vs. Beam Arrays. DHCs do 1.74:1 the damage of Beam Arrays. So at the base, that's 174:100. If your Arrays were doing 2000 damage, your DHCs would be doing 3480. If your Arrays crit for 4000, your DHCs would crit for 6960.
You went from a difference of +74 to +1480 to +2960. The ratio remains the same - but the value of the amount from that ratio will just keep growing and growing...creating a larger and larger disparity.
You're going to see the same thing with the Web Mines, if somebody's got APA3 or not. That ratio may remain the same...but yeah, the damage difference will be eye opening.
One could say then, well...one could ask, should a Tac feel cheap for being a Tac?
qeustion, why does everyone here make false statements "all that stuff"i dont use "all thqat stuff" yes, i do have the console equipped , thats correct, if thats the qeustion?
ow wait, there was no qeustion asked, only statements,and "all" suggest more then 1, nope, i only have this console equipped, whats "all" if i may ask?
if you dont want to be restricted, and you dont want to be targeted with it, dont pvp,if you like going to kerrat do so, but the moment you warp in, you also kind of agree with being targeted with consoles, dont want being targeted with the console? dont go then.
if you steal a watch, and you get caught with it, do you also say "well, i want that watch, but not being caught, so let me go? " same thing.
if you choose something, you also choose the qonseqeunses with it.also, youre "paying customer" title doesnt give you the right to decide everything sure drop youre feedback, but, youre "paying" is nothing compared to what those console's bring into the pocket of cryptic, so they dont care.for you 10 others who arent so difficult like some people pretend to be here.
and kerrat is playeble, the normal qeue's aswell, but people make a big problem of this console, and a few others,and yeah, then you dont feel comfty in the qeue's, cuz they use it there, so what? youre free to leave youre feedback, everyone is, everyone is also free to pvp or not, just like i'm free to use that console as it is right now, like a lot of others.
Have fun destroying whats left of pvp out of your own pure selfishness while I try to save it by using my feedback to help get things balanced. And I do spend a lot on everything else, just not this lockbox.
You know what has always been a compelling argument to me? "If she wasn't asking for it, why would she wear that skirt?"
No, playing PvP does not mean that I signed up to be griefed by people using OP powers, nor does it mean that I should have an obligation to try to win at all costs by using those selfsame powers.
I am curious, though - outside of PvP, what is the benefit of this console for players? If it did nothing at all except the fairly cool FX animation, how would that change its actual value in PvE?
I battled an engie in an assault cruiser, decloaked on him, and then proceeded to render him helpless with the Baseball + tractor beam while my Defiant ripped him to shreds.
I battled a sci in a Korath (might've been the Krenn... doesn't matter really). Decloaked on her, rendered her helpless with the Baseball + tractor beam, while my Defiant ripped her to shreds.
I battled a B'Rel retrofit, captain class I don't know. I started decloaked as he dropped torpedoes on me, and then I caught him in a tractor beam as he was firing, disabling his cloak. I proceeded to render him helpless with the Baseball, and my Defiant ripped him to shreds.
I battled a Scimitar, decloaked, rendered him helpless, while in a matter of seconds my Defiant ripped him to shreds.
And then I've been on the receiving end numerous times also, rendered helpless while a BoP or something pounds their cannons on me.
It was all very cheesey and just seemed like a cheap victory.
It's simply ridiculous that I can render you helpless for so long with this thing. There isn't much use in PvE, except that it cancels Donatra's thelaron while it's charging.
I agree this gentlemen. Stop crying about it. Either get one or deal with it. It has a 3 minute cool down.
And as others have said in this thread, that attitude destroys PvP. Using every cheap trick in the book destroys PvP, nobody cares if it's 'in the game, therefore meant to be used'. It will still drive people away.
When I was doing the Die25 in a Marauder (trying to find new and interesting ways to do that) - it was amazing how fast folks were obliterating one another. With most things, 1-2s is going to give folks time to do all sorts of things to deal with a potential vape. This though...they just pop.
Some folks even bragged about it being a fun new way for them to grief folks in Ker'rat. They don't even attack the person - they just wrap them in dark poo matter and let the Borg kill them.
Fleet B'rel...eh?
You sir have stumbled upon something that has been in the works for awhile now - I suggest you keep quiet or the men in black suits will be knocking at your door - sshh.
I hate to say it, but...
...
...
...I wish the Feds had gotten AAs, and Klingons gotten some other console, instead of anybody getting this thing.
It's the first of many...
it's amazing how many people still can't see the forest for the trees.
Someone who can't see the forest for the trees has typically become so focused on details that he or she begins to ignore the overall situation.
*
it does at the end a fair amount of kinetic damage, so even if a npc doesnt have or use boff powers that can be disabled, it will still do kinetic damage to him on colapse,and it masks you and other allies for a couple seconds.also make's that most ships ( except donatra, filthy cheat can claock always XD ) cannot cloack,other then that, i cant come up with more,
but, why all the hate to the people using them? i mean, we didnt design it, we didnt ask for this console, cryptic make's it and brings it in the game, i dont mind its in there, but why hate people who use it, its like hating the gun, not the hired assassin. ( i know lockbox console's are some kind of secret, because they dont show 1 week before on the test server) without a "proper"test, and without a period some players can test it, i do think that next time a new console find its way t the game, that a certain amount of people, or prefereble everyone, can test it on tribble, this will make that less people qq when its online on holo, but that if needed, it can be adjusted before it come's over to holo.isnt that a solution?
sure i have linked it sometime's, who doesnt linked it? aah yes right, people who doesnt use it, sorry my bad. i also indeed linked it a few time's for people who asked for a link, ignoring that is kinda rude yha know?so, grats on youre good memory.
i dont destroy pvp,it destroys its own.blaming me for the so called "destruction of pvp" is like blaming the jews for WW2.
i think that the only thing that destroys pvp is the people setting rules for others, i use this console, so i'm conciderd a "cheat", i have the need to defend myself against this false accusation, and we have a whole discussion here, with all this need to decide if people may or may not use a console or abbility,people generate splinter cells, and that,that destroys pvp.
you dont like this console, i dont like tif, another person doesnt like EWP, everyone like's or dislike's something, but people have free will and so people can make a choice, i choice to fight things regarding i dont like them or like them, others decide to set rules for others,i let who is right in the middle for a second.but thats how i feel about it.
solution is easy, so no need to worry:
stop deciding what people can use or not, so the pvp community doesnt splinter.
also, i dont feel the need to restrict myself from using abbility's and console's other people cant handle, they either take it like a men, or they dont pvp, easy enough.
At least if Feds did get AA, that would at least allow me to say, 'well, a lot of Feds won't know how to effectively use it aside from 'spam it every time it comes up''. *le sigh*
There's a lot of active tanking (whether abilities or simple movement) - take that away - things pop pretty easy.
You've got your analogy completely upside-down. You made the choice to use the OP thing once it exists. Same thing as being in a wrestling match for fun, and then someone puts a gun on the mat. You are the player who makes the choice to pick up the gun and use it to win. It's not like Cryptic mandatorily puts the console on every ship and forces its use. You made the choice to use it. Therefore the hate. The fact is that you have a choice whether you care about the feelings of other players, and whether you don't care and just want to use some blatantly unbalanced tool to win.
You didn't ask for it, but you took it and used it anyway. And that is sufficient for culpability right there.
Another completely irrelevant analogy. Again, your choice, take the heat.
We're not setting any rules for you. We are not considering you a cheat. No one mentioned that. But we are sure as hell going to call you unsporting.
Furthermore, you make the choice to use something unbalanced. Newer PvPers may see you use the console and be driven out, due to blatant use of something unbalanced, reducing player population. Hence, you too receive some of the blame. Simple as that.
Free will? Yes, we too are exercising our free will and speech to deem your use of this tool to be unsporting.
And if everyone just used whatever they wanted? The queues would be even deader than they are now. Can you imagine? All players, speccing into Graviton Pulse, this stupid beachball, TIF, doffed Scramble and using T'Varos with full Romulan crews. I'll take a splintered community over that scenario - because face it, even a splintered community is better than not having one at all.
How about you take the criticism like a man instead? Simple logic - You use an unbalanced console - We see it as unsporting - We criticise you. Don't like people yelling at you for using something unbalanced? Well, take your own advice and man up.
No problem with this console? Don't you dare QQ if it gets used on you and you get killed every time. Because if I see someone using something I deem unbalanced, all the cheese in my inventory gets loaded up, BoFFs get switched out, and I go hunting. And that person is going to have very special attention. And we'll see how fun a fight like that is. If I lose? No prob, I'm not exactly used to using that stuff. But if this can show a player how unfun the unbalanced stuff is, mission complete.