The median hull strength of among the 13 ten consoles T5 Battle Cruisers = 42,900
Re-Stated:
Min : 34,450
Max: 44,500
Avg : 41,342
Median : 42,900
Sample size = 13
Claim : "Elachi Battleship has below average hull strength for its category at 39K."
You decide whether this is correct or not based on these facts.
And what, exactly, is the median shield mod of those boats? 1.1? 1.0? vs 1.2 as VD would eh? eh? EH?
*edit addon*
Here is how the formula works. You have three variables they consider for 'defense' with the hull.
1) Shield Mod
2) Hull HP
3) Turn Rate
If one goes up above normal, another must go down. You will likely notice that most KDF BCs have 10ish turn rate, 1.1ish shield mod, and more hull than the new ship. You will likely also notice the adapted BC while having both a higher shield mod and hull than the new ship, has a terribad turn rate.
Now the question of is +2 turn rate worth spending 5k ish hull or +.1 shield mod worth 5k ish hull would be valid and should be asked.
And what, exactly, is the median shield mod of those boats? 1.1? 1.0? vs 1.2 as VD would eh? eh? EH?
*edit addon*
Here is how the formula works. You have three variables they consider for 'defense' with the hull.
1) Shield Mod
2) Hull HP
3) Turn Rate
If one goes up above normal, another must go down. You will likely notice that most KDF BCs have 10ish turn rate, 1.1ish shield mod, and more hull than the new ship. You will likely also notice the adapted BC while having both a higher shield mod and hull than the new ship, has a terribad turn rate.
Now the question of is +2 turn rate worth spending 5k ish hull or +.1 shield mod worth 5k ish hull would be valid and should be asked.
Yeah, Elachi enemy ships have better shields and weaker hulls than other enemy ships of their levels.
As mentioned earlier, the battle cruiser having lower hull for its class is not really relevant, rendering the discussion irrelevant. It's the combination of turnrate, shield mod, and hull. It's hardly fair to compare the hull rating of a ship with turnrate of 5/6 with one of turnrate 10. (I really wonder why no one mentioned this to shut the argument down earlier)
In fact, the closest comparison would be the Galor. Same turnrate, but it trades some shield mod for hull (relative value debatable). Also, the Monbosh gets to run DHCs, and comes with the nifty console, instead of the Galor's beam weaponry. It also comes with an extra Tac console. Therefore, I can say that the Monbosh is equal to, if not superior to the Galor. And it's kinda agreed that the Galor is a rather impressive ship, all told. Therefore, rationally, the Monbosh is also a very good ship.
In fact, compare it to the D'Kora. Same hull, superior turnrate, superior shield mod, same impulse mod, more tac consoles. Pretty obviously better, isn't it?
Elachi Battleship / Cruiser :
- Below average hull, heck even a Destroyer has same amount of hull than a supposed cruiser
- No Lt. Commander Sci boff station possible, aka. impossible to do PSW or GW
- Impossible to do APO3 or CRF3
- No hangar
- Slow, impulse modifier of many 40K+ hull cruisers reach 0.18 while this one is only 0.15
- No Cloak
- Some Cruisers have higher shield modifier at 1.3+ while having more hull
- Some cruisers have more Tact console slots and more adept at being a Tactical vessel
Breaking this ship down, it's a hybrid that has gone wrong - average at everything and best at nothing.
Having a Lt Commander Sci boff station is quite a subjective measure. Different roles.
APO3 and CRF3 are Tac commander abilities. And few are capable of that.
No hangar? Of course, it's not a flight-deck cruiser/carrier.
Impulse modifier - rebutted earlier, only the Adapted Battle Cruiser has better
Higher shield mod and hull - yes, but they sacrifice turnrate instead.
Tac console slots - very few. Only the Scimitar Tac (if you were to take it as a cruiser, which I don't) and the Bortas'qu Tac.
In reality, shield mod, turnrate and number of tac consoles are above average. Hull is below average. While impulse mod may be slightly below the mean, it is certainly the mode among battlecruisers. With 3 'blue' stats, as you put it, two 'red' (hull and cloak) and one average, it's actually a great ship in the battlecruiser category (excluding ships with hangars)
Let's do a quick benchmark of the Elachi Escort :
- Hull Strength: 28,500 (Significantly below Escort Average)
- Shield Modifier: 1.3 (Much higher than Escort Average)
- Crew: 200 (Average hull repair speed)
- Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft (Standard Escort Set Up)
- Device Slots: 2 (Slightly below Average among Escorts as some have more than 2 slots and no less than 2)
- Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Commander Tactical, 1 Ensign Engineering, 1 Lieutenant Commander Science, 2 Lieutenant Universal (Sci focus tact escort, different set up, personal preference, not quantifiable)
- Console Modifications: 4 Tactical, 2 Engineering, 4 Science (Average Escort set up)
- Base Turn Rate: 16 degrees per second (About Average Escort set up, if not slightly below average among lock box ships)
- Impulse Modifier: 0.2 (Escort Average)
* +10 Weapon Subsystem, +5 Engine Subsystems (Escort Average)
- Can Load Cannons (Standard Escort capabilities)
As you can see, there are more red than blue, meaning more features which are below the average Escorts than above. This Escort is a piece of TRIBBLE considering it's a lock box ship with so many features which are below average. To compare, let's do the same test for another lock box Escort :
Hull strength vs Shield mod tradeoff. That's debateable.
Device slots - 2 is the mode among escorts - all fleet raptors and fleet escorts have 2. So do the Mobius and the JHAS.
Turnrate is certainly not below average among lockbox escorts, or even ships. Mobius has 15, Adapted Destroyer has 11, JHAS has 20, JHHEC (if this is an escort) has 13. Average is 14.75, or 15.3 without JHHEC. The JHAS is the only ship with a turnrate that exceeds the S'Golth.
Most everything else is average.
In fact, try using your metric on the Mobius. Median or below median hull (among fleet escorts), slightly above average shield mod, below average device slots, 15 turnrate (below average, by your measurement). Everything else is average. Using your metric, the Mobius is as much a 'piece of TRIBBLE' as the S'Golth is.
In essence, it's not overpowered or anything. The Elachi escort is a very interesting sidegrade instead of an upgrade. And that's, in my opinion, a good thing.
Very well, let me re-do my calculation by including all T5 Battlecruisers that have 10 consoles space, excluding 9 consoles ships because they aren't comparable..
Your assumption here is questionable at best - why are 9 console ships 'not comparable'? Lacking a console slot is probably not going to create a bigger difference in performance than things like having a built-in cloak or launch bays versus ships that don't. Again, you were spot on earlier when you argued that it is bad practice to cherry-pick data points because they prove your point. So, again, please stop doing it. At the very least, please at least acknowledge that you are assuming the Monbosh's category to be "Fleet/lockbox Battlecruisers who may or may not have launch bays or (battle) cloaks, may have wildly different Boff setups, may have different numbers of weapons, and may have singularity cores or M/AM cores, but which all have 10 console slots, so it's fine"
Put another way - If the Jem Dread and the Fleet DD make the cut, it's tough to argue that the non-fleet 9 console Battlecruisers you are choosing to exclude are MORE dis-similar to the Monbosh then they are, so they should probably be included too.
Claim : "Elachi Battleship has below average hull strength for its category at 39K."
You decide whether this is correct or not based on these facts.
Your facts are insufficient to address the stated claim. Looking at the data including the ships I feel you have arbitrarily excluded, the claim is confirmed.
Put another way, I consider my definition of the Monbosh's classification to be superior to yours, and thus I prefer my data set to yours.
I will also say that if you wanted to really examine the Monbosh's capabilities, it might be more helpful to rely on a less objective but probably more accurate standard of "ships that are actually similar in role and capabilities", but whatever, I certainly don't feel like putting that much work into proving that one internet spaceship is mathematically slightly better than another internet spaceship. In actual practice differences in player skill will play a much more massive role than a minor variance in absolute ideal power.
As mentioned earlier, the battle cruiser having lower hull for its class is not really relevant. It's the combination of turnrate, shield mod, and hull. It's hardly fair to compare the hull rating of a ship with turnrate of 5/6 with one of turnrate 10. (I really wonder why no one mentioned this to shut the argument down earlier)
i did, in the other thread. these are the only cruisers that are fair to compare it too, because they are ether TRIBBLE turn beam boats or low turn battle cruisers in name only. these all actually turn well, and have DHC use. these are the only cruisers that can really say that
elatchi battle cruiser- turn 10, 39000 hull, shield mod 1.2 <- best station setup as well
Fleet K't'inga- turn 11, hull 34,450, shield mod 1.1
Fleet Kamarag- turn 10.5, hull 38500, shield mod 1.1
Fleet Tor'Kaht- turn 10, hulll 39600, shield mod 1.1
Fleet Neg'var- turn 9, hull 42900, shield mod 1.1
eh, i suppose i'll throw these in too. not exactly good turning or battle cruisers necessarily, but they are close to the same concept.
Ferengi D'Kora- turn 7, hull 39000, shield mod 1.1
Scimitar- turn 7, hull 40000, shield mod 1.1
average, including elatchi= 39037.5, shield mods all obviously lower at 1.1.
the elatchi battle cruiser is the best battle cruiser in the game. these are the facts, they are irrefutable
Have to say, have definitely reached that point of not having enough console slots - lol...have you tried to build out a Mon Bosh? Painful..it almost begs to be flown by a Rom to get the +CrtH/CrtD from the BOFFs instead of consoles.
what crew? the 4 superior romulans and 1 superior reman i got, 3 of witch are from the exchange. me, and a proboly most of the posters here have similar quality of officers. it can be expensive sure, but theres no disputing this is romulans online after you have them
Exactly.
That guy is living in foo-foo land.
My main RomTac currently has several sets of Superior Ops so I can swap out between specific BOFF loadouts and maintain maximum crit.
any1 else notice the Romulan temporal ships were new for like a couple of days?
release new money grab stuff and still sell inferior items to sucker ppl outa currencies, Boooo
but in all honesty ill probably try it, i just HATE elachi. the starbase episode is just so stupid, so not startrek. noxious gas butt blast. thanks in advance cryptic.
In fact, compare it to the D'Kora. Same hull, superior turnrate, superior shield mod, same impulse mod, more tac consoles. Pretty obviously better, isn't it?
Damn...never thought I'd see the day another lockbox ship would be a better tac cruiser than the D'kora, but it is what it is. Though it is gonna be hard to give up the D'kora simply because of the non-combat stuff it gains, but then again...I have a Tuffli (and maybe one day, a Cell Ship) for that.
Makes me tempted to want to buy it. I'm quite the cruiser jockey anyways (and by extension, a TRIBBLE for being one). Anybody wanna donate to help me with that? I promise not to suck in it. :P
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Makes me tempted to want to buy it. I'm quite the cruiser jockey anyways (and by extension, a TRIBBLE for being one). Anybody wanna donate to help me with that? I promise not to suck in it. :P
I'm not sure any amount of financial support will cure you of such a perverse affliction, Mim :P
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I'm not sure any amount of financial support will cure you of such a perverse affliction, Mim :P
Ok, fair point. Then want to help me buy the new ship? If going to CUA (Cruiser-Users Anonymous) won't help, then some folks should at least help me get my fix! :P
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
It's funny, thinking about the issue I mentioned with trying to pick consoles for the Monbosh - but that same issue would apply to any ship. Cause have to figure that 2pc bonus (secondary set, not the ship sets) is going to include that +7.6% Disruptor Damage (like 2pc Jem for Polaron, 2pc Rom for Plasma, 2pc Nukara for Tetryon). So it will be a case of looking at what other bonuses that Bioneural console has to see if it and one of the weapons gets added for that bonus.
It's funny, thinking about the issue I mentioned with trying to pick consoles for the Monbosh - but that same issue would apply to any ship. Cause have to figure that 2pc bonus (secondary set, not the ship sets) is going to include that +7.6% Disruptor Damage (like 2pc Jem for Polaron, 2pc Rom for Plasma, 2pc Nukara for Tetryon). So it will be a case of looking at what other bonuses that Bioneural console has to see if it and one of the weapons gets added for that bonus.
From the FAQ for this lock box
Console - Universal - Bioneural Infusion Circuits - This console provides a boost to Hull Hitpoints, Improves your Hold and Disable abilities (including those of the Subspace Torpedo) and increases your Critical Severity.
Console - Universal - Bioneural Infusion Circuits - This console provides a boost to Hull Hitpoints, Improves your Hold and Disable abilities (including those of the Subspace Torpedo) and increases your Critical Severity.
eek
Thanks for that. So that with "Equipping any two of this set will enhance your Shields and Disruptor Damage," from Blog#37...hrmm.
Have to wonder if it's a +Structural Integrity boost or a direct boost. Likely a +SI boost.
...that complicates things further, because that possibly makes it a console for non-Disruptor boats. Picturing a Sci looking to boost what they feel might be a squishy boat, get more annoying with their Decomps, and add some severity to damage of their targets that are grabbing their ankles. Hrmmm...
Sounds good to me - with some sci abilities having been nerfed, this will help make sci ships a little more viable again.
You mean nerfing sci into the ground and then releasing a lobi console that makes them work again makes sci viable again?
They could have just released consoles that emulate the sci abilities without needing the borked skills, now that would be aweso... oh wait. Nevermind.:o
Console - Universal - Bioneural Infusion Circuits - This console provides a boost to Hull Hitpoints, Improves your Hold and Disable abilities (including those of the Subspace Torpedo) and increases your Critical Severity.
eek
That's a shame. The only thing that interests me in this console is the critical severity and hull hit point increase. I do run phasers, but I suspect that it won't increase the disable for a significant amount of time.
I wouldn't give up my leech, cloaking device, or RCS console for it. Definitely wouldn't give up my Assimilated Module or Tachyokinetic Converter for it.
Guess I'll save my Lobi crystals for the next Lobi set.
Heh, if anybody was wondering how Cryptic could afford to give away over 7500 Zen worth of stuff to each account this week...don't think they need to wonder anymore.
Yup, explains why Science ships are the gift today.
It looks like Haywire is an always on 15% chance to reflect 50% of damage received with 100% shield pen...Or 60% chance to reflect damage received if equipped on an elachi ship...
The universal console gives +15% to crit damage :O
It looks like Haywire is an always on 15% chance to reflect 50% of damage received with 100% shield pen...Or 60% chance to reflect damage received if equipped on an elachi ship...
The universal console gives +15% to crit damage :O
Comments
And what, exactly, is the median shield mod of those boats? 1.1? 1.0? vs 1.2 as VD would eh? eh? EH?
*edit addon*
Here is how the formula works. You have three variables they consider for 'defense' with the hull.
1) Shield Mod
2) Hull HP
3) Turn Rate
If one goes up above normal, another must go down. You will likely notice that most KDF BCs have 10ish turn rate, 1.1ish shield mod, and more hull than the new ship. You will likely also notice the adapted BC while having both a higher shield mod and hull than the new ship, has a terribad turn rate.
Now the question of is +2 turn rate worth spending 5k ish hull or +.1 shield mod worth 5k ish hull would be valid and should be asked.
My character Tsin'xing
As mentioned earlier, the battle cruiser having lower hull for its class is not really relevant, rendering the discussion irrelevant. It's the combination of turnrate, shield mod, and hull. It's hardly fair to compare the hull rating of a ship with turnrate of 5/6 with one of turnrate 10. (I really wonder why no one mentioned this to shut the argument down earlier)
In fact, the closest comparison would be the Galor. Same turnrate, but it trades some shield mod for hull (relative value debatable). Also, the Monbosh gets to run DHCs, and comes with the nifty console, instead of the Galor's beam weaponry. It also comes with an extra Tac console. Therefore, I can say that the Monbosh is equal to, if not superior to the Galor. And it's kinda agreed that the Galor is a rather impressive ship, all told. Therefore, rationally, the Monbosh is also a very good ship.
In fact, compare it to the D'Kora. Same hull, superior turnrate, superior shield mod, same impulse mod, more tac consoles. Pretty obviously better, isn't it?
Having a Lt Commander Sci boff station is quite a subjective measure. Different roles.
APO3 and CRF3 are Tac commander abilities. And few are capable of that.
No hangar? Of course, it's not a flight-deck cruiser/carrier.
Impulse modifier - rebutted earlier, only the Adapted Battle Cruiser has better
Higher shield mod and hull - yes, but they sacrifice turnrate instead.
Tac console slots - very few. Only the Scimitar Tac (if you were to take it as a cruiser, which I don't) and the Bortas'qu Tac.
In reality, shield mod, turnrate and number of tac consoles are above average. Hull is below average. While impulse mod may be slightly below the mean, it is certainly the mode among battlecruisers. With 3 'blue' stats, as you put it, two 'red' (hull and cloak) and one average, it's actually a great ship in the battlecruiser category (excluding ships with hangars)
Hull strength vs Shield mod tradeoff. That's debateable.
Device slots - 2 is the mode among escorts - all fleet raptors and fleet escorts have 2. So do the Mobius and the JHAS.
Turnrate is certainly not below average among lockbox escorts, or even ships. Mobius has 15, Adapted Destroyer has 11, JHAS has 20, JHHEC (if this is an escort) has 13. Average is 14.75, or 15.3 without JHHEC. The JHAS is the only ship with a turnrate that exceeds the S'Golth.
Most everything else is average.
In fact, try using your metric on the Mobius. Median or below median hull (among fleet escorts), slightly above average shield mod, below average device slots, 15 turnrate (below average, by your measurement). Everything else is average. Using your metric, the Mobius is as much a 'piece of TRIBBLE' as the S'Golth is.
In essence, it's not overpowered or anything. The Elachi escort is a very interesting sidegrade instead of an upgrade. And that's, in my opinion, a good thing.
Your assumption here is questionable at best - why are 9 console ships 'not comparable'? Lacking a console slot is probably not going to create a bigger difference in performance than things like having a built-in cloak or launch bays versus ships that don't. Again, you were spot on earlier when you argued that it is bad practice to cherry-pick data points because they prove your point. So, again, please stop doing it. At the very least, please at least acknowledge that you are assuming the Monbosh's category to be "Fleet/lockbox Battlecruisers who may or may not have launch bays or (battle) cloaks, may have wildly different Boff setups, may have different numbers of weapons, and may have singularity cores or M/AM cores, but which all have 10 console slots, so it's fine"
Put another way - If the Jem Dread and the Fleet DD make the cut, it's tough to argue that the non-fleet 9 console Battlecruisers you are choosing to exclude are MORE dis-similar to the Monbosh then they are, so they should probably be included too.
Your facts are insufficient to address the stated claim. Looking at the data including the ships I feel you have arbitrarily excluded, the claim is confirmed.
Put another way, I consider my definition of the Monbosh's classification to be superior to yours, and thus I prefer my data set to yours.
I will also say that if you wanted to really examine the Monbosh's capabilities, it might be more helpful to rely on a less objective but probably more accurate standard of "ships that are actually similar in role and capabilities", but whatever, I certainly don't feel like putting that much work into proving that one internet spaceship is mathematically slightly better than another internet spaceship. In actual practice differences in player skill will play a much more massive role than a minor variance in absolute ideal power.
i did, in the other thread. these are the only cruisers that are fair to compare it too, because they are ether TRIBBLE turn beam boats or low turn battle cruisers in name only. these all actually turn well, and have DHC use. these are the only cruisers that can really say that
elatchi battle cruiser- turn 10, 39000 hull, shield mod 1.2 <- best station setup as well
Fleet K't'inga- turn 11, hull 34,450, shield mod 1.1
Fleet Kamarag- turn 10.5, hull 38500, shield mod 1.1
Fleet Tor'Kaht- turn 10, hulll 39600, shield mod 1.1
Fleet Neg'var- turn 9, hull 42900, shield mod 1.1
eh, i suppose i'll throw these in too. not exactly good turning or battle cruisers necessarily, but they are close to the same concept.
Ferengi D'Kora- turn 7, hull 39000, shield mod 1.1
Scimitar- turn 7, hull 40000, shield mod 1.1
average, including elatchi= 39037.5, shield mods all obviously lower at 1.1.
the elatchi battle cruiser is the best battle cruiser in the game. these are the facts, they are irrefutable
It's a stupid and horrible tactic but people keep buying the keys so they are simply following the money.
Exactly.
That guy is living in foo-foo land.
My main RomTac currently has several sets of Superior Ops so I can swap out between specific BOFF loadouts and maintain maximum crit.
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=957771
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=957771
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=957771
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=957771
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=957771
any1 else notice the Romulan temporal ships were new for like a couple of days?
release new money grab stuff and still sell inferior items to sucker ppl outa currencies, Boooo
but in all honesty ill probably try it, i just HATE elachi. the starbase episode is just so stupid, so not startrek. noxious gas butt blast. thanks in advance cryptic.
Damn...never thought I'd see the day another lockbox ship would be a better tac cruiser than the D'kora, but it is what it is. Though it is gonna be hard to give up the D'kora simply because of the non-combat stuff it gains, but then again...I have a Tuffli (and maybe one day, a Cell Ship) for that.
Makes me tempted to want to buy it. I'm quite the cruiser jockey anyways (and by extension, a TRIBBLE for being one). Anybody wanna donate to help me with that? I promise not to suck in it. :P
I'm not sure any amount of financial support will cure you of such a perverse affliction, Mim :P
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Ok, fair point. Then want to help me buy the new ship? If going to CUA (Cruiser-Users Anonymous) won't help, then some folks should at least help me get my fix! :P
From the FAQ for this lock box
Console - Universal - Bioneural Infusion Circuits - This console provides a boost to Hull Hitpoints, Improves your Hold and Disable abilities (including those of the Subspace Torpedo) and increases your Critical Severity.
eek
Thanks for that. So that with "Equipping any two of this set will enhance your Shields and Disruptor Damage," from Blog#37...hrmm.
Have to wonder if it's a +Structural Integrity boost or a direct boost. Likely a +SI boost.
+X Structural Integrity
+X Subspace Decompiler
+X Critical Severity
Wonder how much of each of those it gives...
...that complicates things further, because that possibly makes it a console for non-Disruptor boats. Picturing a Sci looking to boost what they feel might be a squishy boat, get more annoying with their Decomps, and add some severity to damage of their targets that are grabbing their ankles. Hrmmm...
I'm picturing a R'Mor in a whole different light now...
You mean nerfing sci into the ground and then releasing a lobi console that makes them work again makes sci viable again?
They could have just released consoles that emulate the sci abilities without needing the borked skills, now that would be aweso... oh wait. Nevermind.:o
I wouldn't give up my leech, cloaking device, or RCS console for it. Definitely wouldn't give up my Assimilated Module or Tachyokinetic Converter for it.
Guess I'll save my Lobi crystals for the next Lobi set.
Which only makes it almost as silly as the scimitar.
thats nice. how about that inertia score? lol
Oh, hate to break it to you, but the cloak is bug, and will be removed soon. Yes, I saw Branflakes say that.
Yup, explains why Science ships are the gift today.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
For a minute there I thought that poster had lost his marbles. :P
So apparently it was released with a battlecloak on accident? :eek:
The universal console gives +15% to crit damage :O
Wow, just wow...
Could you list the +Structural Integrity and +Subspace Decompiler it gives as well by any chance? Pretty please.
Just have to decide what to get rid of...Leech (which I was going to use for the AMP warp core) or Cloak...
http://i.imgur.com/1rXzzEu.jpg