This was originally posted under the Blog post thread, reposted it here in PvP :
Elachi Battleship / Cruiser :
- Below average hull, heck even a Destroyer has same amount of hull than a supposed cruiser
- No Lt. Commander Sci boff station possible, aka. impossible to do PSW or GW
- Impossible to do APO3 or CRF3
- No hangar
- Slow, impulse modifier of many 40K+ hull cruisers reach 0.18 while this one is only 0.15
- No Cloak
- Some Cruisers have higher shield modifier at 1.3+ while having more hull
- Some cruisers have more Tact console slots and more adept at being a Tactical vessel
Breaking this ship down, it's a hybrid that has gone wrong - average at everything and best at nothing.
Let's do a quick benchmark of the Elachi Escort :
- Hull Strength: 28,500 (Significantly below Escort Average)
- Shield Modifier: 1.3 (Much higher than Escort Average)
- Crew: 200 (Average hull repair speed)
- Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft (Standard Escort Set Up)
- Device Slots: 2 (Slightly below Average among Escorts as some have more than 2 slots and no less than 2)
- Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Commander Tactical, 1 Ensign Engineering, 1 Lieutenant Commander Science, 2 Lieutenant Universal (Sci focus tact escort, different set up, personal preference, not quantifiable)
- Console Modifications: 4 Tactical, 2 Engineering, 4 Science (Average Escort set up)
- Base Turn Rate: 16 degrees per second (About Average Escort set up, if not slightly below average among lock box ships)
- Impulse Modifier: 0.2 (Escort Average)
* +10 Weapon Subsystem, +5 Engine Subsystems (Escort Average)
- Can Load Cannons (Standard Escort capabilities)
As you can see, there are more red than blue, meaning more features which are below the average Escorts than above. This Escort is a piece of TRIBBLE considering it's a lock box ship with so many features which are below average. To compare, let's do the same test for another lock box Escort :
Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer
- Hull Strength: 39,000 (Significantly above average hull than average Escorts, Cruiser like)
- Shield Modifier: 1.1 (Above average shield modifier for Escorts)
- Crew: 1200 (Significantly above average hull repair rate due to high number of crew)
- Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft (Standard Escort Set Up)
- Device Slots: 3 (Above average of Escort device slots)
- Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Commander Tactical, 1 Ensign Tactical, 1 Lieutenant Commander Science, 2 Lieutenant Universal (Personal preference, impossible to quantify)
- Console Modifications: 4 Tactical, 3 Engineering, 3 Science (Standard Escort Set Up)
- Base Turn Rate: 11 degrees per second (Below Average Escort Turn rate, compensated by a Cloaking device however)
- Impulse Modifier: 0.18 (Slightly Below Average Impulse Modifier)
* +10 Weapon Subsystems, +5 Engine Subsystems, +5 Shield Subsystems (Above Average Bonus Power Output, comparable to Cruisers)
- Can Load Cannons (Standard Feature)
- Adapted Cloaking Device (Considered a Plus if Federation, as Fed Escorts do not have a built-in Cloak)
- Sensor Analysis (Feature unavailable to other Escorts, therefore, a major plus)
As you can see here, a lock box escort should have more blue features vs. red than average escorts.
The only sensible conclusion about the Elachi Escort, objectively speaking is that it's TRIBBLE, too many functions that are below average even compared to free ships. Naturally, some people will buy anything that is new & fancy.
You know, I can't find a constructive way to point out how bad that comparison of the S'golth is...I couldn't do it in the other thread and I still can't do it here. It's extremely biased to make the S'golth look worse. The comparison for the Mon Bosh is even worse. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the fundamentals of Cryptic math as well as blatant bias.
If you slot it that way, that leaves you "Ensign Eng"...and that's it.
Mobius had LTC Sci, and could run Lt Sci with 4 Sci console slots and is an escort, and could potentially slot backstep.
The fleet Dhelan can copy the Mobius, but also has 5 Tac consoles, Battlecloak and Singularity abilities.
Both are pretty close from a BOFF layout standpoint, and I really don't think I'd ever run the layout you suggested.
No, Mobius was 1.05.
Of course it also has 4500 more base hull, which after Structural Integrity + Items is more like 6,000 hull.
Really there is very little about this ship that could convince me to get out of a Warbird.
the nice thing about having a romulan character is not having any reason what so ever to use something thats not a warbird. the warbirds are the best, the lock box ships are for fed and kdf characters. i wouldn't even think to compare these ships to any warbirds, the warbirds are better, period.
the elatchi escort looks like a temporal destroyer alternative, or potentially a sci heavy heal boat with a commander tac. eh, its something different.
This was originally posted under the Blog post thread, reposted it here in PvP :
Elachi Battleship / Cruiser :
- Below average hull, heck even a Destroyer has same amount of hull than a supposed cruiser
- No Lt. Commander Sci boff station possible, aka. impossible to do PSW or GW
- Impossible to do APO3 or CRF3
- No hangar
- Slow, impulse modifier of many 40K+ hull cruisers reach 0.18 while this one is only 0.15
- No Cloak
- Some Cruisers have higher shield modifier at 1.3+ while having more hull
- Some cruisers have more Tact console slots and more adept at being a Tactical vessel
Breaking this ship down, it's a hybrid that has gone wrong - average at everything and best at nothing.
the nice thing about having a romulan character is not having any reason what so ever to use something thats not a warbird. the warbirds are the best, the lock box ships are for fed and kdf characters. i wouldn't even think to compare these ships to any warbirds, the warbirds are better, period.
You know, I'm curious about that...picturing a JHAS with +11.5% CrtH, +28.8% CrtD, and +12.5% Defense.
the nice thing about having a romulan character is not having any reason what so ever to use something thats not a warbird. the warbirds are the best, the lock box ships are for fed and kdf characters. i wouldn't even think to compare these ships to any warbirds, the warbirds are better, period.
Agreed.
Then I'll go a step further. :P
My tac that owns a JHAS and a JHHEC (same character) would use either of those ships instead.
One has the best turn rate in the game, and is easily the best designed "straight escort".
The other has one of the best Aux to Batts layouts you could hope for on an Escort/Destroyer (the other is the Mobius).
Speaking of the Mobius...my Fed Tac in a Mobius might keep the Elachi Escort as a second ship for running some different layouts. Otherwise, he'd probably stay in the mobius.
the elatchi escort looks like a temporal destroyer alternative, or potentially a sci heavy heal boat with a commander tac. eh, its something different.
Agreed.
It's lockbox level, it's not terrible, it's something different.
I disagree the Warbirds are better, they explode quite well and the main problem is the game was not design for Warbirds, their entire encounter mentality goes against Warbirds because there is no way to use their strengths.
Going to go out on a limb and say there is some user error going on here.
There is no point for Romulans to get Lock Box ships, not because Warbirds are better but rather because a Romulan is a inferior character outside a Warbird.
OK, now you must just be trolling.
You might want to scroll up, and read where Virusdancer just laid exactly why what you said is completely wrong.
You know, I'm curious about that...picturing a JHAS with +11.5% CrtH, +28.8% CrtD, and +12.5% Defense.
its called a dhlean, basically. might not have as many tac skills, but it can battle cloak and you can run a 2 AtB build on them. sure, its not the dog fighter a bug is, nothing is still, but its alpha potential is even better then the bug's.
I disagree the Warbirds are better, they explode quite well and the main problem is the game was not design for Warbirds, their entire encounter mentality goes against Warbirds because there is no way to use their strengths.
not designed for war birds? actually, you have that backward. theres no real limitations to battlecloak, like a time limit to or something. if theres not a built in stat disadvantage to the ship that has battle cloak, the ship is just better. the bops have that built in disadvantage, the warbirds dont, in fact they have better then fed escort stats. the problem is theres no advantage to being a non cloaker, your actually at a rather huge disadvantage without one.
Also to me the real issue is that instead of making Warp and Singularity equals they instead gone making Warbirds along with Singularity "balanced" against existing ships, the whole singularity powers are a mistake, rather they buffed Warp Cores, cut the base power of Warbirds and call it a day, there are issues with that because if you move from a Singularity Warbird to a Warp Core ship you lose out, Romulan Builds and consoles do not function on them and they lose skills, a Romulan outside a Warbird is a character with 8 and half traits.
i have mixed feelings about the singularity powers, mostly that they are overpowered for the 50 power you give up for them. luckally you can use all the ally faction consoles if you decide to use a warp core ship, the reverse is not the same for your ally faction.
There is no point for Romulans to get Lock Box ships, not because Warbirds are better but rather because a Romulan is a inferior character outside a Warbird.
its impossible to be an inferior character when you have a crue of superior boffs. even if you dont have a cloak and half the bonuses dont help you, you still have sky high defense and crit thanks to them. thats all part of the romulans are best at everything package.
with or without the boffs, warbirds are still the best ships, if you dont fly them wrong. high stats, very workable station setups with or without AtB use, BC, the incredibly useful sing jump and quant absorb, they make everything else look phoned in.
Torn to shred in your dream maybe, says the one who didn't even know Recluse exists or who didn't know Cruisers have an average hull of 43K+ :rolleyes:
Hrmm, here are the base hull values for the T5 (RA/VA/Fleet/Lockbox) Cruisers...
RA
39000
39000
39000
39000
39000
39500
VA
40000
40000
39000
42000
42000
42000
Fleet
36000
39600
42900
43450
44000
42900
42000
Lockbox
37500
There's only two Cruisers with over 43k hull...one with +450 and one with +1000.
People have tried to give you the opportunity to walk away gracefully, but if you insist on posting things like you are...well, people are just going to point at you and laugh.
edit: Btw, since the Mon Bosh can use DHCs - it's going to fall into the Battle Cruiser category which has an average base hull of 39197 or so.
Maybe he's calculating the base HP by also adding skill points in Starship Structural Integrity? Still, very silly of him to make all this erroneous claims.
Romulans are at the mercy of whatever the system decides to spew in their direction, there is supposed to be a rare assignment that allows to recruit Romulan Bridge Officers that I never see, you are not guaranteed Operative or Superior Operative, the ONLY one you get iis Sarta and Khev that have the basic one, Romulans get Subterfuge.
Romulans are not KDF or Fed that can just get BOFFs when they fell like, hell Feds can just run "Doomsday Device" and get Rares.
Mirror Event level alts...you'll have your Sub/Sup OP without any issue.
Meanwhile I can argue Rainier Cherries aren't really cherries because they aren't purple. Your narrow definition of what a cruiser is a laughable attempt to be obstinate. I will not play this game with you.
What game? cruisers are not carriers, neither are "Dreadnought Warbirds" that have Cmdr Tac
Uh...why are we comparing it to the non-fleet version? The non-fleet version has 9 consoles space, no people in their sound mind would use it for PvP knowing that an exact same ship is available with 10 consoles + upgrades? Let me guess? Because you can't win an argument when comparing apples to apples? :rolleyes: But here is the fleet version for your reference : http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Advanced_Heavy_Cruiser_Retrofit Uh why are we not comparing it to the non-fleet versions? STO is a F2P game, and while you will never see me in a free ship, you do still see them in pvp, they still are t5 ships.
Not all t5 ships get fleet upgrades either, such as the Gal-x, the Marauder Flight Deck Cruiser, and karfi. Also while lockbox ships get 10 console slots, they aren't fleet ships, they are lockbox ships, their hull or shields are often balanced differently from most fleet ships, in this case slightly lower hull and higher shield mod then most fleet cruisers.
Hull of 42,900
But hey, if we use the Fleet version, then you can't claim they have lower hull because they aren't? Such selective data mining can only fool idiots, not the vast majority of people reading this thread.
It appears, your zombie/super tank cruiser went Kabooom at the hands of my tricobalt. Wait, you probably forgot already. A Fleet Voquv is not a cruiser either:rolleyes:
and you only decloaked when I was already being ganged up on by 5 people, it happens when you roll around in kerrat with a HoBo tag, they feel so threatened the entire instance gangs up on me sometimes. Fortunatley for you I'm not petty enough to screenshot my kills but at least I can take you out on my own with a 3 tac console brel instead of always waiting for the gank squad to do the job for you. Funny how the screenshot is outside kerrat so you wouldn't have the gank squad in the screenshot and so you would be nowhere to be found afterwards when I came back.
also funny to see you run around kerrat with a stack of 39 jevonite, lol.
Iskan wants to have forum pvp in the blog thread so I'll reply here where more appropriate. Response in red.
Hrmm, here are the base hull values for the T5 (RA/VA/Fleet/Lockbox) Cruisers...
RA
39000
39000
39000
39000
39000
39500
VA
40000
40000
39000
42000
42000
42000
Fleet
36000
39600
42900
43450
44000
42900
42000
Lockbox
37500
There's only two Cruisers with over 43k hull...one with +450 and one with +1000.
People have tried to give you the opportunity to walk away gracefully, but if you insist on posting things like you are...well, people are just going to point at you and laugh.
edit: Btw, since the Mon Bosh can use DHCs - it's going to fall into the Battle Cruiser category which has an average base hull of 39197 or so.
uh...I didn't realize you have been elected the speaker of people, since when? Where are the basis of your numbers? Did you just plugin numbers as you see fit because I provided sources of my info :
So how did you get the 37500 number? Answer : Playing with the definition of what a Cruiser is and do so without even stating how defines a Cruiser.
Here is another false claim made by Virus by playing a game of words : "There's only two Cruisers with over 43k hull...one with +450 and one with +1000."
The DD at a hull of 44,500 is apparently not counted by Virus even though it is a Cruiser and quaks like one because it has the word "Battle" in front of a Cruiser.
Anyone can see you are being unjustifiably biased by playing such game of words and you can't even providing links to your numbers other than just listing them. If anyone has damaged their credibility, it's you and for no good reasons.
The Mobius Timeship is a Destroyer, but I don't see anyone claiming it isn't an Escort.
Maybe he's calculating the base HP by also adding skill points in Starship Structural Integrity? Still, very silly of him to make all this erroneous claims.
My claim was and is at 39K hull, it has below average hull in the cruiser category. Whatever the exact avg. number is open to debate. However, it is clear most ships that can be grouped as "Cruiser" with 10 consoles space have hull greater than 39K.
Virus has a long history of taking things personally and in this case, his numbers are completely without basis since there was not a single link in his post. Why? He can't. Nor did he explain the basis of his claims because he doesn't want to be challenged. When he listed lockbox : 37500. Did he state where the number come from? Nope. He didn't want you to know because it can't stand up to scrutiny.
If you feel my claims are wrong, please feel free to ignore them. I don't claim to hold the truths, you decide what you want to believe, no skin off my behind really. This is the pvp forum, not pvp arena. To be honest, I wish there is an ignore function in this BBB.
Virus has a long history of taking things personally and in this case, his numbers are completely without basis since there was not a single link in his post.
Virus has no history of taking a single thing personally. He does have a history of sometimes being extremely rude to people that are posting false information, but he's been working on that. Notice that Virus did you call you a complete idiot for the total TRIBBLE you've been posting. Virus has come a long way, eh?
The numbers Virus listed are separated by RA/VA/Fleet/Lockbox and are in order they are listed at STOwiki. A common source that anybody could check. No need to clutter up a post with pointless links.
Why is Virus replying to this post saying Virus instead of I/Me/etc? Virus would have to be a complete idiot to respond to such total TRIBBLE.
1) Not only the Elachi ship has no Cruiser in its name
and
2) It's classified as a... you guess : "Battle Cruiser"
I find it laughable all this time, the select few are arguing right and left it's Cruiser when it turned out to be classified as a Battle Cruiser, LMAO.
Oh wait, let me do a pre-emptive strike : "Well, the Wiki is wrong. It's unreliable."
Maybe so, but clearly, the hair splitting is so unnecessary, it's like trying to argue what the definition of "is" is.
Virus has no history of taking a single thing personally. He does have a history of sometimes being extremely rude to people that are posting false information, but he's been working on that. Notice that Virus did you call you a complete idiot for the total TRIBBLE you've been posting. Virus has come a long way, eh?
The numbers Virus listed are separated by RA/VA/Fleet/Lockbox and are in order they are listed at STOwiki. A common source that anybody could check. No need to clutter up a post with pointless links.
Why is Virus replying to this post saying Virus instead of I/Me/etc? Virus would have to be a complete idiot to respond to such total TRIBBLE.
Right, using the STOwiki which you hold up as bible, the said ship is listed as Battle Cruiser.
1) Not only the Elachi ship has no Cruiser in its name
and
2) It's classified as a... you guess : "Battle Cruiser"
I find it laughable all this time, the select few are arguing right and left it's Cruiser when it turned out to be classified as a Battle Cruiser, LMAO.
Oh wait, let me do a pre-emptive strike : "Well, the Wiki is wrong. It's unreliable."
Maybe so, but clearly, the hair splitting is so unnecessary, it's like trying to argue what the definition of "is" is.
OMFG, I think I wet myself.
Isk, I'm the one that's been saying it's a Battle Cruiser and that's why your Cruiser info was pointless. And here you are...making yourself look a bigger fool than everybody else combined probably could...
Torn to shred in your dream maybe, says the one who didn't even know Recluse exists or who didn't know Cruisers have an average hull of 43K+ :rolleyes:
swing and a miss, another post easily brushed aside, showing increasing levels of desperateness to prove me wrong. ive got a personal rule, i only type something if it cant be proven wrong.
Romulans are at the mercy of whatever the system decides to spew in their direction, there is supposed to be a rare assignment that allows to recruit Romulan Bridge Officers that I never see, you are not guaranteed Operative or Superior Operative, the ONLY one you get iis Sarta and Khev that have the basic one, Romulans get Subterfuge.
Romulans are not KDF or Fed that can just get BOFFs when they fell like, hell Feds can just run "Doomsday Device" and get Rares.
what crew? the 4 superior romulans and 1 superior reman i got, 3 of witch are from the exchange. me, and a proboly most of the posters here have similar quality of officers. it can be expensive sure, but theres no disputing this is romulans online after you have them
Right, using the STOwiki which you hold up as bible, the said ship is listed as Battle Cruiser.
LMAO!
So, wait, you posted a response where you compared the hull hp to Fed Cruisers and Kling Carriers, Dreadnought warbirds, etc (basically anything NOT a BC), then called out people who refuted those numbers by saying they don't apply because its actually a battle-cruiser (which a cursory glance at wiki confirms are generally even lower hp than what you were using)? Is that about right?
Well played sir. Nobody can beat your argument if you kill it yourself!
uh...I didn't realize you have been elected the speaker of people, since when? Where are the basis of your numbers? Did you just plugin numbers as you see fit because I provided sources of my info :
Everyone knows virus is the numbers guy in STO, also wiki is run by users so not exactly official in regards to how they classifly ships.
swing and a miss, another post easily brushed aside, showing increasing levels of desperateness to prove me wrong. ive got a personal rule, i only type something if it cant be proven wrong.
what crew? the 4 superior romulans and 1 superior reman i got, 3 of witch are from the exchange. me, and a proboly most of the posters here have similar quality of officers. it can be expensive sure, but theres no disputing this is romulans online after you have them
Watch out if you forum pvp with Iskandus to much he may come after you with a gank squad if he sees you in Kerrat so he can run outside afterwards to take a screenshot without the ganksquad and just of the combat logs to make it look like he did it himself :rolleyes:
Meh, I'm not the numbers guy - there are a bunch of numbers guys out there. Most of what I do is derivative of their work (and I usually remember to give them credit for that) or it's a case of regurgitating basic math or sharing info the devs provided or even just babbling raw data so the numbers guys can figure it out for me.
But yeah, I've posted a few things with enough numbers in them to make even my own eyes bleed when I go back and look at them...lol, total WTF was I doing moment sort of thing.
Besides, spreadsheet warrior stuff only goes so far. It can help with the theory and some of the understanding of stuff going on, but in the end - it's the players ability to apply that to real world (real STO world) scenarios where it matters. I just fly around going wheeeeee....
So, wait, you posted a response where you compared the hull hp to Fed Cruisers and Kling Carriers, Dreadnought warbirds, etc (basically anything NOT a BC), then called out people who refuted those numbers by saying they don't apply because its actually a battle-cruiser (which a cursory glance at wiki confirms are generally even lower hp than what you were using)? Is that about right?
Well played sir. Nobody can beat your argument if you kill it yourself!
Very well, let me re-do my calculation by including all T5 Battlecruisers that have 10 consoles space, excluding 9 consoles ships because they aren't comparable :
Here is my source of info using STO Wiki Spreadsheet for Battle Cruiser, excluding from the list are non T5 ships and ships with less than 10 consoles : http://sto.gamepedia.com/Battle_Cruiser
Comments
If you slot it that way, that leaves you "Ensign Eng"...and that's it.
Mobius had LTC Sci, and could run Lt Sci with 4 Sci console slots and is an escort, and could potentially slot backstep.
The fleet Dhelan can copy the Mobius, but also has 5 Tac consoles, Battlecloak and Singularity abilities.
Both are pretty close from a BOFF layout standpoint, and I really don't think I'd ever run the layout you suggested.
Nope it didn't, Mobius was 1.05.
Of course it also has 4500 more base hull, which after Structural Integrity + Items is more like 6,000 hull.
Really there is very little about this ship that could convince me to get out of a Warbird.
Elachi Battleship / Cruiser :
- Below average hull, heck even a Destroyer has same amount of hull than a supposed cruiser
- No Lt. Commander Sci boff station possible, aka. impossible to do PSW or GW
- Impossible to do APO3 or CRF3
- No hangar
- Slow, impulse modifier of many 40K+ hull cruisers reach 0.18 while this one is only 0.15
- No Cloak
- Some Cruisers have higher shield modifier at 1.3+ while having more hull
- Some cruisers have more Tact console slots and more adept at being a Tactical vessel
Breaking this ship down, it's a hybrid that has gone wrong - average at everything and best at nothing.
Let's do a quick benchmark of the Elachi Escort :
- Hull Strength: 28,500 (Significantly below Escort Average)
- Shield Modifier: 1.3 (Much higher than Escort Average)
- Crew: 200 (Average hull repair speed)
- Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft (Standard Escort Set Up)
- Device Slots: 2 (Slightly below Average among Escorts as some have more than 2 slots and no less than 2)
- Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Commander Tactical, 1 Ensign Engineering, 1 Lieutenant Commander Science, 2 Lieutenant Universal (Sci focus tact escort, different set up, personal preference, not quantifiable)
- Console Modifications: 4 Tactical, 2 Engineering, 4 Science (Average Escort set up)
- Base Turn Rate: 16 degrees per second (About Average Escort set up, if not slightly below average among lock box ships)
- Impulse Modifier: 0.2 (Escort Average)
* +10 Weapon Subsystem, +5 Engine Subsystems (Escort Average)
- Can Load Cannons (Standard Escort capabilities)
As you can see, there are more red than blue, meaning more features which are below the average Escorts than above. This Escort is a piece of TRIBBLE considering it's a lock box ship with so many features which are below average. To compare, let's do the same test for another lock box Escort :
Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer
- Hull Strength: 39,000 (Significantly above average hull than average Escorts, Cruiser like)
- Shield Modifier: 1.1 (Above average shield modifier for Escorts)
- Crew: 1200 (Significantly above average hull repair rate due to high number of crew)
- Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft (Standard Escort Set Up)
- Device Slots: 3 (Above average of Escort device slots)
- Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Commander Tactical, 1 Ensign Tactical, 1 Lieutenant Commander Science, 2 Lieutenant Universal (Personal preference, impossible to quantify)
- Console Modifications: 4 Tactical, 3 Engineering, 3 Science (Standard Escort Set Up)
- Base Turn Rate: 11 degrees per second (Below Average Escort Turn rate, compensated by a Cloaking device however)
- Impulse Modifier: 0.18 (Slightly Below Average Impulse Modifier)
* +10 Weapon Subsystems, +5 Engine Subsystems, +5 Shield Subsystems (Above Average Bonus Power Output, comparable to Cruisers)
- Can Load Cannons (Standard Feature)
- Adapted Cloaking Device (Considered a Plus if Federation, as Fed Escorts do not have a built-in Cloak)
- Sensor Analysis (Feature unavailable to other Escorts, therefore, a major plus)
As you can see here, a lock box escort should have more blue features vs. red than average escorts.
The only sensible conclusion about the Elachi Escort, objectively speaking is that it's TRIBBLE, too many functions that are below average even compared to free ships. Naturally, some people will buy anything that is new & fancy.
the nice thing about having a romulan character is not having any reason what so ever to use something thats not a warbird. the warbirds are the best, the lock box ships are for fed and kdf characters. i wouldn't even think to compare these ships to any warbirds, the warbirds are better, period.
the elatchi escort looks like a temporal destroyer alternative, or potentially a sci heavy heal boat with a commander tac. eh, its something different.
refer here if you would like to see this torn to shreds http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11913601&postcount=68
You know, I'm curious about that...picturing a JHAS with +11.5% CrtH, +28.8% CrtD, and +12.5% Defense.
No special Warp cores?
Can the battleship equip DHC's? With 10 turn rate base, that could be a little bit awesome no?
How does haywire work exactly?
Agreed.
Then I'll go a step further. :P
My tac that owns a JHAS and a JHHEC (same character) would use either of those ships instead.
One has the best turn rate in the game, and is easily the best designed "straight escort".
The other has one of the best Aux to Batts layouts you could hope for on an Escort/Destroyer (the other is the Mobius).
Speaking of the Mobius...my Fed Tac in a Mobius might keep the Elachi Escort as a second ship for running some different layouts. Otherwise, he'd probably stay in the mobius.
Agreed.
It's lockbox level, it's not terrible, it's something different.
It's certainly not a game changer.
It's great for dueling, it's still a great ship.
Going to go out on a limb and say there is some user error going on here.
OK, now you must just be trolling.
You might want to scroll up, and read where Virusdancer just laid exactly why what you said is completely wrong.
Romulans have access to the best of everything.
its called a dhlean, basically. might not have as many tac skills, but it can battle cloak and you can run a 2 AtB build on them. sure, its not the dog fighter a bug is, nothing is still, but its alpha potential is even better then the bug's.
not designed for war birds? actually, you have that backward. theres no real limitations to battlecloak, like a time limit to or something. if theres not a built in stat disadvantage to the ship that has battle cloak, the ship is just better. the bops have that built in disadvantage, the warbirds dont, in fact they have better then fed escort stats. the problem is theres no advantage to being a non cloaker, your actually at a rather huge disadvantage without one.
i have mixed feelings about the singularity powers, mostly that they are overpowered for the 50 power you give up for them. luckally you can use all the ally faction consoles if you decide to use a warp core ship, the reverse is not the same for your ally faction.
its impossible to be an inferior character when you have a crue of superior boffs. even if you dont have a cloak and half the bonuses dont help you, you still have sky high defense and crit thanks to them. thats all part of the romulans are best at everything package.
with or without the boffs, warbirds are still the best ships, if you dont fly them wrong. high stats, very workable station setups with or without AtB use, BC, the incredibly useful sing jump and quant absorb, they make everything else look phoned in.
Rebutted here : http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11914081&postcount=77
Torn to shred in your dream maybe, says the one who didn't even know Recluse exists or who didn't know Cruisers have an average hull of 43K+ :rolleyes:
Hrmm, here are the base hull values for the T5 (RA/VA/Fleet/Lockbox) Cruisers...
RA
39000
39000
39000
39000
39000
39500
VA
40000
40000
39000
42000
42000
42000
Fleet
36000
39600
42900
43450
44000
42900
42000
Lockbox
37500
There's only two Cruisers with over 43k hull...one with +450 and one with +1000.
People have tried to give you the opportunity to walk away gracefully, but if you insist on posting things like you are...well, people are just going to point at you and laugh.
edit: Btw, since the Mon Bosh can use DHCs - it's going to fall into the Battle Cruiser category which has an average base hull of 39197 or so.
Mirror Event level alts...you'll have your Sub/Sup OP without any issue.
Iskan wants to have forum pvp in the blog thread so I'll reply here where more appropriate. Response in red.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11914841&postcount=84
uh...I didn't realize you have been elected the speaker of people, since when? Where are the basis of your numbers? Did you just plugin numbers as you see fit because I provided sources of my info :
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Heavy_Cruiser_Retrofit : 39,600
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Star_Cruiser : 42,900
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Advan...uiser_Retrofit : 42,900
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Support_Cruiser_Retrofit : 43,450
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Explo...uiser_Retrofit : 44,000
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Odyssey_Star_Cruiser : 42,000
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Vo%27Quv_Carrier : 46,200
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Bortas_Battle_Cruiser : 43,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Negh%...Battle_Cruiser : 42,900
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_D%27d...uiser_Retrofit : 44,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Scimitar_Dreadnought_Warbird : 40,000
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tal_Shiar_A...Battle_Cruiser : 42,000
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tholian_Recluse_Carrier : 43,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Jem%E2%80%9...nought_Carrier : 45,000
For example : You said Lockbox
37500
However, here is a lockbox Cruiser : http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tal_Shiar_Adapted_Battle_Cruiser : 42,000
So how did you get the 37500 number? Answer : Playing with the definition of what a Cruiser is and do so without even stating how defines a Cruiser.
Here is another false claim made by Virus by playing a game of words : "There's only two Cruisers with over 43k hull...one with +450 and one with +1000."
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_D%27deridex_Warbird_Battle_Cruiser_Retrofit
The DD at a hull of 44,500 is apparently not counted by Virus even though it is a Cruiser and quaks like one because it has the word "Battle" in front of a Cruiser.
Anyone can see you are being unjustifiably biased by playing such game of words and you can't even providing links to your numbers other than just listing them. If anyone has damaged their credibility, it's you and for no good reasons.
The Mobius Timeship is a Destroyer, but I don't see anyone claiming it isn't an Escort.
I'm not going to pay 8-15m a pop for them on the Exchange. I think that's absurd when I can get them by just Mirror leveling an alt.
My claim was and is at 39K hull, it has below average hull in the cruiser category. Whatever the exact avg. number is open to debate. However, it is clear most ships that can be grouped as "Cruiser" with 10 consoles space have hull greater than 39K.
Virus has a long history of taking things personally and in this case, his numbers are completely without basis since there was not a single link in his post. Why? He can't. Nor did he explain the basis of his claims because he doesn't want to be challenged. When he listed lockbox : 37500. Did he state where the number come from? Nope. He didn't want you to know because it can't stand up to scrutiny.
If you feel my claims are wrong, please feel free to ignore them. I don't claim to hold the truths, you decide what you want to believe, no skin off my behind really. This is the pvp forum, not pvp arena. To be honest, I wish there is an ignore function in this BBB.
Virus has no history of taking a single thing personally. He does have a history of sometimes being extremely rude to people that are posting false information, but he's been working on that. Notice that Virus did you call you a complete idiot for the total TRIBBLE you've been posting. Virus has come a long way, eh?
The numbers Virus listed are separated by RA/VA/Fleet/Lockbox and are in order they are listed at STOwiki. A common source that anybody could check. No need to clutter up a post with pointless links.
Why is Virus replying to this post saying Virus instead of I/Me/etc? Virus would have to be a complete idiot to respond to such total TRIBBLE.
Vir, you know the difference between a Destroyer and an Escort...right? I mean, obviously you don't...but it was fun to ask
Oh wait, guess what I found : http://sto.gamepedia.com/Elachi_Monbosh_Battleship
1) Not only the Elachi ship has no Cruiser in its name
and
2) It's classified as a... you guess : "Battle Cruiser"
I find it laughable all this time, the select few are arguing right and left it's Cruiser when it turned out to be classified as a Battle Cruiser, LMAO.
Oh wait, let me do a pre-emptive strike : "Well, the Wiki is wrong. It's unreliable."
Maybe so, but clearly, the hair splitting is so unnecessary, it's like trying to argue what the definition of "is" is.
Right, using the STOwiki which you hold up as bible, the said ship is listed as Battle Cruiser.
LMAO!
OMFG, I think I wet myself.
Isk, I'm the one that's been saying it's a Battle Cruiser and that's why your Cruiser info was pointless. And here you are...making yourself look a bigger fool than everybody else combined probably could...
...I need to go change my shorts.
That was epic, Isk...thanks for that.
swing and a miss, another post easily brushed aside, showing increasing levels of desperateness to prove me wrong. ive got a personal rule, i only type something if it cant be proven wrong.
purly in the interest of makeing iskandus look bad, as if hes not doing a great job already, my next rebutal. im sure your all at the edge of your seat.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11915401&postcount=92
what crew? the 4 superior romulans and 1 superior reman i got, 3 of witch are from the exchange. me, and a proboly most of the posters here have similar quality of officers. it can be expensive sure, but theres no disputing this is romulans online after you have them
So, wait, you posted a response where you compared the hull hp to Fed Cruisers and Kling Carriers, Dreadnought warbirds, etc (basically anything NOT a BC), then called out people who refuted those numbers by saying they don't apply because its actually a battle-cruiser (which a cursory glance at wiki confirms are generally even lower hp than what you were using)? Is that about right?
Well played sir. Nobody can beat your argument if you kill it yourself!
Everyone knows virus is the numbers guy in STO, also wiki is run by users so not exactly official in regards to how they classifly ships.
Watch out if you forum pvp with Iskandus to much he may come after you with a gank squad if he sees you in Kerrat so he can run outside afterwards to take a screenshot without the ganksquad and just of the combat logs to make it look like he did it himself :rolleyes:
Meh, I'm not the numbers guy - there are a bunch of numbers guys out there. Most of what I do is derivative of their work (and I usually remember to give them credit for that) or it's a case of regurgitating basic math or sharing info the devs provided or even just babbling raw data so the numbers guys can figure it out for me.
But yeah, I've posted a few things with enough numbers in them to make even my own eyes bleed when I go back and look at them...lol, total WTF was I doing moment sort of thing.
Besides, spreadsheet warrior stuff only goes so far. It can help with the theory and some of the understanding of stuff going on, but in the end - it's the players ability to apply that to real world (real STO world) scenarios where it matters. I just fly around going wheeeeee....
Very well, let me re-do my calculation by including all T5 Battlecruisers that have 10 consoles space, excluding 9 consoles ships because they aren't comparable :
Here is my source of info using STO Wiki Spreadsheet for Battle Cruiser, excluding from the list are non T5 ships and ships with less than 10 consoles : http://sto.gamepedia.com/Battle_Cruiser
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_K%27t%27inga_Battle_Cruiser_Retrofit : 34,450
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Tor%27Kaht_Battle_Cruiser_Retrofit : 39,600
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Kamarag_Battlecruiser_Retrofit : 38,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Bortas_Battle_Cruiser : 43,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Bortasqu%27_Tactical_Cruiser : 43,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Negh%27Var_Heavy_Battle_Cruiser : 42,900
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Bortasqu%27_Command_Cruiser : 43,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Bortasqu%27_War_Cruiser : 43,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Cardassian_Galor_Class_Cruiser : 37,500
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Jem%E2%80%99Hadar_Dreadnought_Carrier : 45,000
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tal_Shiar_Adapted_Battle_Cruiser : 42,000
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ferengi_D%27Kora_Marauder : 39,000
Not in the list but should be included as well :
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_D%27deridex_Warbird_Battle_Cruiser_Retrofit : 44,500
Avg. without DD : 41,079
Avg. with DD : 41,342
All ships are T5 "Battle Cruisers" with 10 consoles. If I miss anything, please let me know.
9 of the 13 comparable ships found have higher hull than the Elachi "Battlecruiser"
The median hull strength of among the 13 ten consoles T5 Battle Cruisers = 42,900
Re-Stated:
Min : 34,450
Max: 44,500
Avg : 41,342
Median : 42,900
Sample size = 13
Claim : "Elachi Battleship has below average hull strength for its category at 39K."
You decide whether this is correct or not based on these facts.