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Marine / MACO uniform ranks
stohanson
Member Posts: 106 Arc User
This request may seem strange, but I'd like to put it out there anyway. There are a lot of fleets that utilize MACO (or Marine) Squads and task forces, but currently there are no costume options for MACO (marine) officers.
I'd like to request that additional rank insignia be added to fall in line with the non navy side of the Starfleet.
I'd like to request that additional rank insignia be added to fall in line with the non navy side of the Starfleet.
Post edited by stohanson on
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Just one problem: there is no "non-navy" side of Starfleet. Personnel may fulfill different roles, but they all share the same rank structure.
Youre correct about a 'non-navy' side of Starfleet. But according to Memory Alpha M.A.C.Os were not affiliated with Starfleet and were under the command of Major J. Hayes aboard the Enterprise NX-01.
M.A.C.Os were assumed to be 'deactivated' as a unit once the Federation was formed. But since this game has reintroduced the M.A.C.O. as apart of this game. Also in the book 'Needs of the Many' a M.A.C.O. soldier is questioned about the Dominion War. So according to the canon of Star Trek Online. M.A.C.O.s do exist and sense they are a ground force and not a naval force. They would fall in under a ground force ranking structure.
And with Major. J. Hayes being sited as an officer. It can be noted that Major is not a Naval Officer rank but instead a Marine/Army rank and this denotes a difference in rank and structuring.
So in closing I support this addition to the uniforms. As long as the rank of Captain on M.A.C.O.s is denoted as such and not equal to a StarShip Captain.
How the Earth government structured its military 230 years prior to STO is entirely irrelevant.
A MACO unit existing within Starfleet does not in any way shape or form denote a divergent command structure. Both the novel you're citing, and in-game examples of named MACO officers, clearly state that they are Starfleet officers first.
Additionally, there exist countless entities under the Starfleet umbrella, none of which have their own ranks.
Once again, anachronistic ranks two centuries out of date are utterly meaningless.
Piece of trivia: the costume folks for DS9 actually worked up the entire non-com rank progression for Starfleet personnel. O'Brien's Senior Chief Petty Officer was the only one to ever show up on screen.
Or variations of O'Brien's senior chief petty officer neck badge with varying numbers of stripes.
Bleed Green and Gold
I would really like to see more of the canon rank features added somehow and also all the known TOS and Enterprise service patches, for Foundry missions. (And maybe if Thomas could design patches for Drozana, that would be nice.)
What ranks the M.A.C.O/Omega/KHG would use is a bit unclear to me, but it would not be unreasonable that they would be using some form of ranking system...
Then how do you explain the current ranking system for Starfleet? They are a direct reflection of current Western Naval Ranking Structure are they not? Thats right. They are. So If 230 years from now theyre still using our Naval ranking structure....Chances are theyre also going to use the same method for a ground branch..
Theres already direct evidence of M.A.C.O.s using a different rank structure in the series introducing them. It makes no sense to change that..Only evidence that it would infact be used. There is no canon evidence of any of this not being the case.
The book also adds further evidence to the ranking structure of the M.A.C.O.s being different from that of Starfleet itself. As the individual being 'interviewed' was of a different enlisted rank then that of an enlisted member of Starfleet. What I believe youre mixing up is the fact that the individual was a Starfleet officer before resigning his commission to join M.A.C.O.
As for in-game. The reason they hold Starfleet rank (and the actual reason behind this thread....that they want that changed to better reflect the actual ranking structure) is because Cryptic slapped M.A.C.O. on some stuff thinking it would draw in sales and didnt think it through enough to add the obvious. A different ranking structure that applies to this new line of Officers/Enlisted members.
And once again youre failing to recognize the fact that the ranking structure of 2409 Starfleet Naval Personnel is the exact same of the current 2013 U.S./British Navies.
And now that I look back Im under the impression youre just playing devils advocate or you get a kick out of arguing peoples proposals because youve made no solid arguements against the proposal other then an assertion that those ranks are out of date while arguing to keep current ranks that are....from the same time period.
I always kinda wanted Voyager's provisional rank insignia in the game, maybe if Voyager wins the vote we can see a Voyager pack with various items including the provisional ranks?
You do realize you're making my point for me right? Starfleet, despite deploying in space, on land and everywhere in between, is effectively a single service branch. There is no "Groundfleet".
Please continue to wilfully ignore that the government that operated the first MACO unit and the one that operates Starfleet are two completely different entities.
Only one noncommisioned rank has ever been codified by Trek for the "modern" era: Senior Chief Petty Officer (courtesy of everyone's favorite fair-haired spanner chucker). The rest of the enlisted rank progression varies mightily depending on whose books or comics you read, and quite often they heavily clash. Needs of the Many included.
Secondly, taking a reduction in rank to swap positions is far from unheard of, especially in the realm of fictional militaries.
EDIT: or is she actually Omega Force? I can't recall...
You've answered your own question. Roxy is a Commander, but give that she's wearing Omega Force gear her rank is likely a reflection of her naval rank. Her rank in Whatever command structure Task Force Omega uses to wrangle both Fed and KDF officers is likely Operative, since she's wearing complete MK XII gear.
As for the MACO rank question, I'd like to think that MACOs are no longer a separate distinct military unit like they were in Enterprise, but rather that MACO is more of a certification, like going through specialized training and earning a special designation. In this case, any officer who's put in his work with Task Force Omega and earned the spiffy gear is qualified to be MACO, and so on. That makes sense both in the way that the MACO gear is acquired and within the greater Starfleet structure.
Think of it like the Hazard Team from Star Trek elite Force. The HT members had specialized gear and duties, but there was no questioning that they were first and foremost members of their ship's crew. Hazard Team was just their job.
That would be an explanation that makes sense. The fact that player characters can be MACO operatives is proof that, at least in STO "canon", MACO exists as part of Starfleet and uses the same rank structure or, more likely, that MACO is some sort of certification. After all, player characters are not transferred out of commanding starships when they become MACO operatives.
No Im not..Typing 'Youre making my point for me' does not mean youve essentially won the debate. Again you CLAIM M.A.C.O. rank is out of date yet reference a rank structure from the same time period....You cant have it both ways. Get me?
I not willfully ignoring anything. Star Trek Online had a book published with relative information about this topic in regards to the time period were playing in! Ive made my references. You can find them at the bottom of this post. You on the other hand have decided to ignore them and toss them out the airlock because you wont admit your argument is invalid.
This all depends on your idea of what is and isnt 'Trek'...Considering the fact youre brushing off M.A.C.O. rank observed in Enterprise. And youve made no attempts to site or reference anything useful to give your argument legs. Im just going to go ahead and come to the conclusion you didnt like Enterprise and wish everything involved with it to be wiped from Trek Lore. This would explain your lack of accurate information regarding M.A.C.O.s, their rank, their position within the Federation and if they even exist in this time period (2409) of Star Trek.
What does this comment have to do with what I was presenting? Nothing. You claimed the individual was still a Starfleet Officer (this individual is sited in the book as being alive YEARS beyond 2409 which places him, the M.A.C.O.s and their differentiating rank during 2409 and the time surrounding it) I stated that this is not entirely true. He WAS a Starfleet Officer, resigned and then joined the M.A.C.O.s as an enlisted member.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Military_Assault_Command_Operations
This gives evidence of the ranks 'Major' and 'General' which are not used by Starfleet (Pre-Federation or After)
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Paul_Stiles
While I prefer not to use Memory-beta all too often it does site the character from the book Paul Stiles. This character, according to the book The Needs of the Many, is described and interviewed in regards to the 'Long War' that involves Undine and other events in this games Timeline. His interview sheds light on the M.A.C.O.s and somewhat of their differentiating rank from that of Starfleet.
Google Preview of Star Trek Online: Needs of the Many - Paul Stiles MACO Interview
Here is the actual interview with a handful of pages not included. The Interview starts on Page 7 and continues on to Page 30. I doubt youll read it as you have yet to make any serious attempt to cement your side of the argument.
Page 5 Jake Sisko mentions in his Pre-Interview write up that Paul Stiles left Starfleet as an Ensign and joined the MACOs as a Private. A Private in 2409...I think we just found that outdated ranking system 230 years beyond what you claim. Privates are not enlisted in Starfleet. Crewman are....
Page 11 Jake Siskos question apologizes for asking questions about things 'That nobody whod served in Starfleet or with the MACO would have to ask.'. If youre having a hard time understanding where Im going with this comment. It directly implies they are of two different functioning Military Branches.
Page 17 At the bottom of the page marked with an Asterisk symbol. "*Semper Fidelis was the official Latin motto of the United States Marine Corps, while Semper Invictus was the Latin phrase similarly adopted by its twenty second century successor, the MACO (Military Assault Command Organization), which IS STILL IN EXTANT TO THIS DAY.'
This remark left at the bottom of the page references the beginning of the MACOs and the fact that they and their motto still exist to this day..
Just so were clear what extant means.
Extant - Adjective
(esp. of a document) Still in existence; surviving.
Synonyms
existing - existent - in existence - present
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Enlisted
This link describes multiple enlisted ranks within Star Trek and Starfleet. Most of them are cited from Star Trek Encyclopedia and further establishes theres a difference between the MACO ranks and Starfleet.
UPDATED: Evidence Colonel and Corporal used by Starfleet or possibly other Military Branches using the Starfleet style uniform.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks
More then 3/4ths of the way down the page. Youll find a Colonel West and a Corporal Askwith cited. Its also left open whether or not there is a seperate section of Starfleet (MACO possibly?) that would utilize such rank.
Bad idea is bad...
The whole RP of Star Trek: Online is that you are 'captain' of a ship, a commissioned officer. I don't think Cryptic should cater to a few fleets who have chosen to implement their own non-commissioned rank structure, that's on them.
Who said anything about catering to 'a few' fleets? How about instead of making stuff up to brush off ideas, you actually come up with some legitimate reasons why it wouldnt work.
Cryptic has made numerous moves to 'cater' to the RP crowd..Thats why theres so many choices in the Appearance Section of the C-Store. RPers will actually buy this stuff up so that they can RP whatever they can possibly imagine and then create thru the Character Creator/Tailor.
These Uniform Ranks will have no effect on general gameplay. Just like right now my character is a Vice Admiral, is referred to as a Vice Admiral by NPCs and when someone clicks on me...my ingame rank is shown as Vice Admiral..But I dont wear VA pips I wear Commander pips. I also have my title set to Commander and not VA.
No one was asking for the actual ranking system to be thrown out. The OP was asking for pips and possibly titles to use to denote he wasnt a VA but instead a Major or Lance Corporal. It would have had no effect on you or anyone elses gameplay.
The Game has numerous different types of pips for different uniforms. No one was banging the drums against those being added. This is nothing more then a prime example of people on the forums looking for nothing more then a fight to take part in. They come running and screaming against the idea of some MACO ranks and titles being added to the game. Suddenly thats just out of the question compared to Starfleet Captains flying Cardassian Galors, Tholian Orb Reavers and Jem'Hadar Attack ships....now all of that is acceptable...but the buck stops with MACO rank...
The OP did...:(
No character in Star Trek has ever been a 'Lance Corporal' or a 'Sergeant Major' or a 'Specialist'. If you want to play Battefield or HALO, go play Battlefield or HALO.
Actually this is canon. There are numerous examples of main characters (which you are in this game) piloting ships from other factions ranging from Dukat's Klingon Bird of Prey to Kira and Co. stealing a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship. So yeah, MACO rank in the context of STO: not really acceptable but the end-all-be-all isn't up to me.
Do you have the numbers on how many fleets utilize the MACO structuring? Cause if you do...instead of insinuating that you have unknown knowledge that the rest of this community doesnt have access too...Then please provide a link or evidence. Otherwise Im going to stick with my original retort to your claim of 'a few fleets'. In general adding these ranks and uniforms will give RPers and anyone else looking to add to their Tailor options the ability to do so. It has no direct effect on you.
Ive already cited information debunking this idea that there arent other ranks outside of Starfleet. Paul Stiles is a Star Trek Online: Needs of the Many character. A book endorsed and advertised by Star Trek Online.
And claiming people should go play Battlefield and Halo if they want to RP different ranks or jobs in this game just shows that the real reason youre against this is because you have something against the RPers in this game. So Ill turn this argument against you.
Cryptic has already committed resources to adding MACO style gear and equipment to this game. If they didnt want that in their version of Star Trek they would of never added it.
So if you DONT WANT MACO in your gameplay....Go play Star Trek Legacy or something. K?
First off, no its not. Not EVERY Starship Captain in canon Star Trek is flying WHATEVER ship he wants. Hes also not dictating the uniform, its colors and appearance of which nacelles look better on his ship. If you want to go the 'canon' way. Theres plenty of canon that establishes that all of this flying around in whatever you want, wearing whatever you want and blasting away whoever you want is against Starfleet Regulations. Spock could probably cite numerous Regs for you. Theres also no evidence in canon of Romulans being allowed, in mass, onto the very last line of defense between the galaxy and Earth.
Again. MACO rank in this game is not going to effect you. The fact that people can change their rank in game to Chief and still Captain a Starship is another direct example of why rank, chosen to be worn by the player, has nothing to do with the actual game mechanic.
I don't have numbers and neither do you. I'm willing to go all-in and bet it's the minority however. And it does have a direct effect on me, I can view it through my client in a game where you are the Captain. Captain, not squad leader.
You can cite information until you are blue in the face but it doesn't change the fact that the main overlying RP in STO is that you are the captain of your vessel. I'm not arguing that there aren't different ranks, just that these ranks were never seen on a main character in any form of Star Trek, and you RP a main character commissioned officer in this game.
I'm fine with MACO style gear, but you are still a commissioned officer whether you like it or not.
No. And it sounds like you should go play Star Trek: Voyager - Elite Force "or something". K?
You got this right. So my question is what makes you think you should wear WHATEVER you want and dictate your uniform and nacelles? And while there is no canon evidence of Romulans being allowed to Earth, it does fit the game's story and RP. There is no canon evidence of junior grade lieutenants captaining their own ship either, but it fits the game's story and RP. Non-commissioned MACO ranks? Doesn't fit the game's story or RP.
What makes you think you have the right to tell me what effects me and what doesn't? Sounds to me like you just want to throw a temper tantrum because you want your way. How early 21st Century of you.
Doesnt make a difference you seem to believe that citing canon and then dismissing it when you choose too as if it only exists to aid you. But thats not how it works. Trolls use this kind of warped logic when they believe theyre getting up on someone.
None of my argument is 'childish'. A child wouldnt bother to put in the work to cite useful points of why it fits. As well Ive cited Star Trek Online information showing its existance.
I dont have to explain how it would work because there is no need to do so. Player X wants to play as a MACO Major...So Player X dons the pips and the title. End of story. Somehow you are under the misconception that it is you that I have to get this past before getting this approved. You have no say or weight on the matter. If Cryptic takes notice of this and decides to add it...You and your opinions on it wouldnt matter. So here and now it doesnt matter.
Namecalling? Youre a troll. There I said it. Now scamper off an report me.
There are no cookies in Star Trek Online and I strongerly stand against it being added. I know ridiculous..much like you.
As for answering my own question. Im pretty sure I didnt ask any questions that I inturn answered for myself... First sign of a failing argument is creating things that didnt happen.
As for effecting you. If it really is effecting you. TOO DAMN BAD. If I want something in game. And Cryptic decides to give it to me. You deal with it. Again your opinion has no weight in whether it would make it in game or not.
And Again I dont have to explain it to you. Youre not making the call on it here. And its pretty obvious how they work. From your perspective your RPing a commissioned officer in Starfleet. To other RPers they can and are whatever they want to RP they are. Dont like it..TOO DAMN BAD.
Wrong. I used it to explain how it fits into the current story of the game, something you have yet to be able to do sadly enough.
It's all childish, too include the mockery and name calling. A child can cite sources but apparently you believe it makes you semi-intelligent. I thought you had to be at least 18 to play this game? I guess I'm wrong.
No I don't have to get this worked out and I've acknowledged that, but it appears as if reading comprehension isn't one of your strong suits. You can't support your thesis which means the whole thing is garbage. You seem to think pretty highly of yourself saying you have to get this passed (not past) before it is approved. Self-infatuated, big-headed and immature. Not exactly flattering qualities. I'm truly sorry for anyone who has to deal with you IRL.
Once again showing how enlightened and articulate we are I see. You go scamper off to whatever hole you crawled out of. I'm sure it is cold, dark and dismal in there.
Good, well thought out comeback (for a kindergartener). I strongerly believe that. LMAO.
Umm it did happen.
See? You indirectly answered your own question. Too bad you are not brilliant enough to understand that. I get it, why don't you?
I don't have to deal with anything, again that's my choice. You seem to think you have some sort of influence in how other people should think. How sad. And Cryptic is going to give it to YOU?! LMAO! Wow! Sounds like you need to stick to playing single-player games as you have no regard for your fellow players.
I suggest Hooked On Phonics for one as you have typos everywhere. Second and once again, the main RP in the game is that you are the captain of your own starship. There is no denying this. Anyone can RP whatever they want but if you choose to ignore the main plot of the game, you are doing yourself a disservice which is unfortunate as it is a really good story. Standupguy? I think not.
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Does anyone really believe that hordes of Vice Admirals are running around on New Romulus tagging Epohhs? Does anyone really think that is what Vice Admirals do with their time?