You are basing your analysis on the fact what someone has said / wrote "The Negh'Var Warship", just as someone might say "The Valdore Warbird" or "The Starship Enterprise".
If a Class is ever specifically named, it's done so by saying "A Cardassian Galor Class Cruiser" or "A Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbird". Each person to have ever stated the class of vessel has in fact, stated class in their quote. Nobody has ever put that word in with the Valdore or Negh'Var on screen. Ever.
If that wasn't the case, then every time someone mentioned "The Starship Enterprise" (and by your argument) they'd be insinuating that the ship in question was the Enterprise Class when we all know it's the Constitution/Excelsior/Ambassador/Galaxy/Sovereign Class.
Thus, as far as any of us are should be concerned, neither ship has an official class. We know only a select number of actual ship names, not class names.
...there are two Romulans standing in ESD atm who look out the window and say "the stars look so different in the Alpha Quadrant."
eh...you were almost certainly born in the Alpha Quadrant...the entire Romulan Star Empire and the new Republic not to mention the Klingon Empire, The Cardassian Union, The Breen Confederacy, The Tholian Assembly and even The Ferengi Alliance are ALL in the Alpha Quadrant...WTF are talking about ?!
what happened did you sack the one guy in the office who actually knew anything about Star Trek ?
oh gawd you've hired jj haven't you ? *runs for the hills*
You are basing your analysis on the fact what someone has said / wrote "The Negh'Var Warship", just as someone might say "The Valdore Warbird" or "The Starship Enterprise".
If a Class is ever specifically named, it's done so by saying "A Cardassian Galor Class Cruiser" or "A Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbird". Each person to have ever stated the class of vessel has in fact, stated class in their quote. Nobody has ever put that word in with the Valdore or Negh'Var on screen. Ever.
If that wasn't the case, then every time someone mentioned "The Starship Enterprise" (and by your argument) they'd be insinuating that the ship in question was the Enterprise Class when we all know it's the Constitution/Excelsior/Ambassador/Galaxy/Sovereign Class.
Thus, as far as any of us are should be concerned, neither ship has an official class. We know only a select number of actual ship names, not class names.
Problem with your theory is "Negh'Var Warship" has appeared on screen on the MSD of the Defiant and Voyager. The MSD is a technical display. Not once has an MSD displayed "The Starship Enterprise", it will always display the ship class.
eh...you were almost certainly born in the Alpha Quadrant...the entire Romulan Star Empire and the new Republic not to mention the Klingon Empire, The Cardassian Union, The Breen Confederacy, The Tholian Assembly and even The Ferengi Alliance are ALL in the Alpha Quadrant...WTF are talking about ?!
You're actually wrong. Both the Romulan and Klingon Empires are in the Beta Quadrant.
The Cardassians and Breen are in the Alpha, I can't remember about the Ferengi.
Problem with your theory is "Negh'Var Warship" has appeared on screen on the MSD of the Defiant and Voyager. The MSD is a technical display. Not once has an MSD displayed "The Starship Enterprise", it will always display the ship class.
We've already established what someone might have said about the ship off screen. What we're trying to determine is the class of ship on screen (which yet, has no actual class name).
Things aren't considered canon unless they're specifically seen or heard via the screen to be.
apparently "only Mike Okuda would know" but he surmises yes.
He might believe this to be so, but it doesn't present the case when the "Valdore Class" hasn't been mentioned on screen. If there was genuine authentication anywhere, then nobody would be using the names Mogai or Norexan.
Dude, I already gave you a picture. Here it is again, in the right side margin. The ship is not the IKS Negh'Var either if you watch the episode.
The picture on the right actually says "Sternbach's redesign sketch of the Vor'Cha-class" so that's wrong either way.
As per the episode, I'm pretty sure Sisko actually says "Ah, the new Klingon Flagship the Negh'Var" or something to that extent. Sisko DOES call the ship by name, and that name is Negh'Var. I can assure you of that.
That still doesn't give your argument any more credit though, and I've already addressed the Warship status.
All that image proves is that the ship (not the class) is a Warship, and is named the Negh'Var. This doesn't mean (by any definition) that it is the class of a vessel.
That still doesn't give your argument any more credit though, and I've already addressed the Warship status.
All that image proves is that the ship (not the class) is a Warship, and is named the Negh'Var. This doesn't mean (by any definition) that it is the class of a vessel.
Nope. I already stated in another post that it is not the IKS Negh'Var. I suggest you try to do less forum PvP and more watching of the actual show.
The subtext to the image even says that this MSD was displayed on Voyager. How many appearances according to Memory Alpha did the IKS Negh'Var make on Voyager? 0. Check and mate my friend.
The subtext to the image even says that this MSD was displayed on Voyager. How many appearances according to Memory Alpha did the IKS Negh'Var make on Voyager?
Could it not be that Voyager had records of the Negh'Var because it was the only Klingon ship (of an unknown class) that the Federation were aware of?
It's no different from Voyager loading up the MSD of the Keldon Cruiser Koranak simply because they knew that specific ship existed.
Your argument is still baseless. You're picking things apart and placing them as fact.
And you know this how? Because of a small little picture that could have come from anywhere?
I suggest you piece together a valid argument before asserting your claims.
Could it not be that Voyager had records of the Negh'Var because it was the only Klingon ship (of an unknown class) that the Federation were aware of?
It's no different from Voyager loading up the MSD of the Keldon Cruiser Koranak simply because they knew that specific ship existed.
Your argument is still baseless. You're picking things apart and placing them as fact.
Once again: less talky, more watchy. Had you actually watched the episode you'd know. Going outside now, its too nice out on this July 4th to sit around and play forum PvP.
For me it is simply this in English Law if there is an Offence committed that no current Statute covers then Judges have to look either forward at what the law was intended to achive or backwards to see what "Mischief" the law was meant to outlaw. I propose that it is Logical to use a similar approach to canon discussions. If there is no Canon, and it is not disputed that only things that appear on TV or Film are established canon. Then you must look backwards or forwards to discover the canon. Looking forwards there is nothing that disputes the name Valdore in established canon. Therefore we must look backwards and there is also no established canon so we must apply the closest to canon we can find and What the designer intended and called in development the ship that appeared on screen then it must apply as Canon.
Also and this will be my last post on the matter it is Star Trek Tradition that the first ship in a class carries the same name as that class. The Defiant Class, NX/USS Defiant. Constitution Class, USS Constitution. Excelsior Class (The Great Experiment), NX/USS Excelsior. Galaxy Class, USS Galaxy. Prometheus Class, NX Prometheus and the list could go on. Even if it were to be argued that these are all Federation ships and that the Romulans and Klingons may follow different traditions it would be more than reasonable assert that when Federation ships encountered these ships they would classify them as the first ship they encountered in that class. Ie The valdore would be classified as Valdore Class. On that note there is one more ship class whose first incarnation carried the class name. The Scimitar, Scimitar Class.
So there are two logical reasons why Valdore class can be the ONLY! acceptable canon name. Unless someone can dispute them using canon and a similar level of logic then there can be no reasonable argument!
The graphic's designer's decision to call it Valdore has NO bearing on Canon. as far as what was on screen, we have IRW Valdor and that was it.
What they intend to do and what we get are two diffrent things.
The USS Sao Palo was supposed to have been given not only Defiant's name, but her regestry as well, as NCC-74205-A, (if you hover close to the defiant during the 2800 missions, she's got a -C suffix) but the production crew never got around to it, so canon wise we get 75633.
The bird of Prey in Star Trek 3 was ment as a stolen Romulan ship. That was canceled out by "Enterprise".
If it was "Warship Neg'var" that's one thing, but if the name precedes it, it's intened as a type or class name.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
I propose that it is Logical to use a similar approach to canon discussions. If there is no Canon, and it is not disputed that only things that appear on TV or Film are established canon. Then you must look backwards or forwards to discover the canon. Looking forwards there is nothing that disputes the name Valdore in established canon. Therefore we must look backwards and there is also no established canon so we must apply the closest to canon we can find and What the designer intended and called in development the ship that appeared on screen then it must apply as Canon.
Such doesn't make it true though. You can't find things that are close to canon, but you can't just come along and say "this is canon because we've got nothing better to work with". It just don't work that way mate.
So there are two logical reasons why Valdore class can be the ONLY! acceptable canon name. Unless someone can dispute them using canon and a similar level of logic then there can be no reasonable argument!
Well, from my perspective, if either of those two Warbirds (from Nemesis) were the prototype, it would have been the Brown one. Donatra commanded the Green one. My reasons for believing this are quite simple; we've only ever seen Green Warbirds before, and it's a fair theory to think that the Brown Warbird was indeed the prototype and put into service prematurely to combat Shinzon.
On a side note, I'd love to know the origins of the Mogai and Norexan name.
Therefore we must look backwards and there is also no established canon so we must apply the closest to canon we can find and What the designer intended and called in development the ship that appeared on screen then it must apply as Canon.
This is a fine way to work if you're the one coming up with things for a CBS-licensed enterprise like STO, but canon doesn't automatically work that way. Things are either canon (seen on TV or film), or not. Certainly some properties try to be consistent with things in other books or games. But things that don't take backstage intention into account aren't violating canon. There's no canon name for the Valdore's class, so both the backstage 'Valdore-class' is only as valid as any of the other card game or novel-based names.
Canon isn't like laws. Laws need to be interpreted to fit with any circumstance that arises, but canon doesn't 'need' to exist or have an answer for every problem. So there can be no 'default' that automatically becomes canon in the absence of any on-screen information. Until an on-screen source establishes a class name for the Valdore's type of ship, there will be NO canon name, and licensed properties will be relatively free to use their own names or adopt a name used in other properties.
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
On a side note, I'd love to know the origins of the Mogai and Norexan name.
I don't know Norexan, but the origin of Mogai is, like about 75% of random Romulan words and lore, from the Rihannsu series. It's a "a Rihannsu-sized carnivorous bird native to ch'Rihan".
When it was firsted used for the ship class, I dunno, but its an appropriate name.
Apparently no one in this thread is willing to be persuaded by any of the arguments put forward. So why keep this alive? Bottom line: Cryptic isn't going to rename a ship that's been in game since Day 1.
Apparently no one in this thread is willing to be persuaded by any of the arguments put forward. So why keep this alive? Bottom line: Cryptic isn't going to rename a ship that's been in game since Day 1.
that could be said for 99% of all threads on here lol
Apparently no one in this thread is willing to be persuaded by any of the arguments put forward. So why keep this alive? Bottom line: Cryptic isn't going to rename a ship that's been in game since Day 1.
We know this man, it's just friendly banter. No harm in sharing an opinion or having a discussion on something that we'd like changed; even if we know it isn't likely to become.
Comments
I'm glad we agree.
huh? /10chars
If a Class is ever specifically named, it's done so by saying "A Cardassian Galor Class Cruiser" or "A Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbird". Each person to have ever stated the class of vessel has in fact, stated class in their quote. Nobody has ever put that word in with the Valdore or Negh'Var on screen. Ever.
If that wasn't the case, then every time someone mentioned "The Starship Enterprise" (and by your argument) they'd be insinuating that the ship in question was the Enterprise Class when we all know it's the Constitution/Excelsior/Ambassador/Galaxy/Sovereign Class.
Thus, as far as any of us are should be concerned, neither ship has an official class. We know only a select number of actual ship names, not class names.
eh...you were almost certainly born in the Alpha Quadrant...the entire Romulan Star Empire and the new Republic not to mention the Klingon Empire, The Cardassian Union, The Breen Confederacy, The Tholian Assembly and even The Ferengi Alliance are ALL in the Alpha Quadrant...WTF are talking about ?!
what happened did you sack the one guy in the office who actually knew anything about Star Trek ?
oh gawd you've hired jj haven't you ? *runs for the hills*
Problem with your theory is "Negh'Var Warship" has appeared on screen on the MSD of the Defiant and Voyager. The MSD is a technical display. Not once has an MSD displayed "The Starship Enterprise", it will always display the ship class.
The Cardassians and Breen are in the Alpha, I can't remember about the Ferengi.
Pictures Please.
http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/art-of-the-romulan-warbird-valdore-day-one/#comment-10992
Things aren't considered canon unless they're specifically seen or heard via the screen to be.
it not links to a direct comment on the issue by its creator
apparently "only Mike Okuda would know" but he surmises yes.
Both the Star Trek Encyclopedia and the Star Trek Star Charts list the Klingon Empire and Romulan Empire in the Beta Quadrant.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_quadrant_%28Star_Trek%29 under Alpha & Beta Quadrants, 2nd Paragraph.
http://vanguard.wdfiles.com/local--files/map%3Aklingon-2/klingon2.jpg
http://starfleet.unblog.fr/files/2009/04/beta.jpg
http://www.rigilkent-online.com/GalaxyMap.html
What are your sources?
Dude, I already gave you a picture. Here it is again, in the right side margin. The ship is not the IKS Negh'Var either if you watch the episode.
meh i defer
yours is the superior intellect (bet that made you smile
i'm just a fan not a Trekkie
i though the John Eaves links might add something to the discussion.
i was reading that blog just the other day...
As per the episode, I'm pretty sure Sisko actually says "Ah, the new Klingon Flagship the Negh'Var" or something to that extent. Sisko DOES call the ship by name, and that name is Negh'Var. I can assure you of that.
Indeed it did.
Oh it does, I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the name of the vessel class based upon what I know. That's all.
Did you even bother to scroll up a little bit or does everybody have to do everything for you? :rolleyes:
Here
All that image proves is that the ship (not the class) is a Warship, and is named the Negh'Var. This doesn't mean (by any definition) that it is the class of a vessel.
Nope. I already stated in another post that it is not the IKS Negh'Var. I suggest you try to do less forum PvP and more watching of the actual show.
The subtext to the image even says that this MSD was displayed on Voyager. How many appearances according to Memory Alpha did the IKS Negh'Var make on Voyager? 0. Check and mate my friend.
I suggest you piece together a valid argument before asserting your claims.
Could it not be that Voyager had records of the Negh'Var because it was the only Klingon ship (of an unknown class) that the Federation were aware of?
It's no different from Voyager loading up the MSD of the Keldon Cruiser Koranak simply because they knew that specific ship existed.
Your argument is still baseless. You're picking things apart and placing them as fact.
Once again: less talky, more watchy. Had you actually watched the episode you'd know. Going outside now, its too nice out on this July 4th to sit around and play forum PvP.
Sounds like you quittin' :P
For me it is simply this in English Law if there is an Offence committed that no current Statute covers then Judges have to look either forward at what the law was intended to achive or backwards to see what "Mischief" the law was meant to outlaw. I propose that it is Logical to use a similar approach to canon discussions. If there is no Canon, and it is not disputed that only things that appear on TV or Film are established canon. Then you must look backwards or forwards to discover the canon. Looking forwards there is nothing that disputes the name Valdore in established canon. Therefore we must look backwards and there is also no established canon so we must apply the closest to canon we can find and What the designer intended and called in development the ship that appeared on screen then it must apply as Canon.
Also and this will be my last post on the matter it is Star Trek Tradition that the first ship in a class carries the same name as that class. The Defiant Class, NX/USS Defiant. Constitution Class, USS Constitution. Excelsior Class (The Great Experiment), NX/USS Excelsior. Galaxy Class, USS Galaxy. Prometheus Class, NX Prometheus and the list could go on. Even if it were to be argued that these are all Federation ships and that the Romulans and Klingons may follow different traditions it would be more than reasonable assert that when Federation ships encountered these ships they would classify them as the first ship they encountered in that class. Ie The valdore would be classified as Valdore Class. On that note there is one more ship class whose first incarnation carried the class name. The Scimitar, Scimitar Class.
So there are two logical reasons why Valdore class can be the ONLY! acceptable canon name. Unless someone can dispute them using canon and a similar level of logic then there can be no reasonable argument!
What they intend to do and what we get are two diffrent things.
The USS Sao Palo was supposed to have been given not only Defiant's name, but her regestry as well, as NCC-74205-A, (if you hover close to the defiant during the 2800 missions, she's got a -C suffix) but the production crew never got around to it, so canon wise we get 75633.
The bird of Prey in Star Trek 3 was ment as a stolen Romulan ship. That was canceled out by "Enterprise".
If it was "Warship Neg'var" that's one thing, but if the name precedes it, it's intened as a type or class name.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Well, from my perspective, if either of those two Warbirds (from Nemesis) were the prototype, it would have been the Brown one. Donatra commanded the Green one. My reasons for believing this are quite simple; we've only ever seen Green Warbirds before, and it's a fair theory to think that the Brown Warbird was indeed the prototype and put into service prematurely to combat Shinzon.
On a side note, I'd love to know the origins of the Mogai and Norexan name.
This is a fine way to work if you're the one coming up with things for a CBS-licensed enterprise like STO, but canon doesn't automatically work that way. Things are either canon (seen on TV or film), or not. Certainly some properties try to be consistent with things in other books or games. But things that don't take backstage intention into account aren't violating canon. There's no canon name for the Valdore's class, so both the backstage 'Valdore-class' is only as valid as any of the other card game or novel-based names.
Canon isn't like laws. Laws need to be interpreted to fit with any circumstance that arises, but canon doesn't 'need' to exist or have an answer for every problem. So there can be no 'default' that automatically becomes canon in the absence of any on-screen information. Until an on-screen source establishes a class name for the Valdore's type of ship, there will be NO canon name, and licensed properties will be relatively free to use their own names or adopt a name used in other properties.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I don't know Norexan, but the origin of Mogai is, like about 75% of random Romulan words and lore, from the Rihannsu series. It's a "a Rihannsu-sized carnivorous bird native to ch'Rihan".
When it was firsted used for the ship class, I dunno, but its an appropriate name.
that could be said for 99% of all threads on here lol
system Lord Baal is dead