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  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    This wasn't a stealth nerf; this was emergency maintenance. The mail system was being broken, and that breaking was affecting other things.

    And those of you who were abusing the mail system for free item storage KNEW you were doing something unintended, and thus knew eventually the free ride would come to a stop. There is an easy solution to the "problem" of having too many white doffs:

    Lower your Exchange prices for them. They'll sell, prices will come down, and people won't feel the need to store them anymore because they'll be plentiful in the Exchange. Put the EC in your fleet bank, and let your officers use it to buy the doffs they need for the fleet projects. Or keep the EC yourself, and buy the doffs for your fleet.

    This will work if there's a limit on storage, which there now is. Now the market needs to adjust, which will take time. It'll take less time if you help it instead of fighting it.

    That's hogwash ghost, this 'fix' came as part of LoR and NOT part of any emergency maintenance done to the system. As well NO official confirmation that this was done at all nor any patch notes is even more disturbing as the company seems to be trying to slip this by us hoping we wont notice. ONLY an unofficial twitter post confirms this 'nerf' is by design. I don't know what Cryptics game is here but as an IT guy I can assure you it's not to address server space used by their mail system unless their mail system is that poorly written.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • syberghostsyberghost Member Posts: 1,711 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I'm surprised. Some of you have been here long enough to remember what they did last time the mail system was getting into this state; they purged people's mail.

    How quickly folks forget.
    Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
  • l0cutus359l0cutus359 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    I'm surprised. Some of you have been here long enough to remember what they did last time the mail system was getting into this state; they purged people's mail.

    How quickly folks forget.

    Geez

    I guess you cant fix stupid.

    I would get fired for such a rash move.
    Locutus

    Delirium Tremens
    Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
    http://dtfleet.com/
  • gamarethgamareth Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The Solution for the so called problem makes no sence.

    If you want to prevent mail be?ng used as a bank make sure items wil be automatically deteled after 30 day's or something. You don't go like hmm let cap the number of items someone can recieve. Because you will still allow (small) longe time storage space while at the same time limit players who have a big mail item flow.

    So don't sove a problem by creating another...and think before you act.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    I'm surprised. Some of you have been here long enough to remember what they did last time the mail system was getting into this state; they purged people's mail.

    How quickly folks forget.

    Heh, why stop there ? Eliminate the mail system completely, and while your at it eliminate the exchange. Then you'll be FORCED to buy a subscription if you want to give one of your other toons a shield if he doesn't already have one. Both use the same asset tag for items and by eliminating both systems their supposed server storage issues disappear overnight.

    :D

    Go big or go home.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • suiksagasuiksaga Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    I'm surprised. Some of you have been here long enough to remember what they did last time the mail system was getting into this state; they purged people's mail.

    How quickly folks forget.


    All I can do with this is facepalm.......
  • bootybootsbootyboots Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    why do I feel like they had I community moderator respond so this thread would not show up on the DEV tracker?

    I'll have to re-edit my original post yet again, before a 'white knight' comes and says this guy doesnt work for cryptic


    Meaning: we still have no official reply on this topic by cryptic except a single twitter
    House of Sigma (channel KDFdefera for PvE requiring only KDF teams) List of KDF issues [my in-game handle @bootymcboots] (channel KDF Empire for KDF orientated discussion - still in development/growing)
  • leod198leod198 Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Yes, Mail should not be use as unlimited storage. But You forcing us to do this. I have All of my characters maxed out on both bank, inventory and doff space. You not letting me purchase more. I have to open 400 fleet science boxes to get 90 Medical Doffs. It is 310 DOFF slots i do not have anymore and it only for ONE project.
    Then it is Data samples. For some of us who still craft ( yes i know). Why 250 stock ? Why Defera data samples stock only to 99?
    Why Regenerations, hypos, charges, batteries stock to 20? You have to keep stocks and stocks of them in bank or go back to Vendors/exchange all the time.
    This is complex game much more complex,than it was even two years ago. You are creating more and more staff for us to collect and use . Do not get me wrong we are grateful for this, but You adding staff on one side and not creating enough storage space, instead you took it away.

    Solutions
    Remove mail attachment limit.
    Create Storage bin for DOFFs/Pets. Increase stock size of everything. Let us purchase more bank space/inventory/doff slots.
  • sussethraisussethrai Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    If you REALLY (REALLY??) had to cap the number of things in a character's mail, it is grossly unfair to do it when we are unable to delete and claim things out of the mail. I have about a dozen officers in the mail that I can't pick up, not due to lack of doff space, and I have tried with all my toons, they are stuck. They are buried under item sold notices, expired sale notices, and stuff that makes a grocery store bulletin board look organized. The haphazard way the mail works now needs to be fixed before you try to implement any other changes, THEN we'll discuss the "abuse of the mail system for storage".
    "Susse-thrai" had been the name bestowed upon her, half in anger, half in affection, by her old crew on Bloodwing; the keen-nosed, cranky, wily old she-beast, never less dangerous than when you thought her defenseless, and always growing new teeth far back in her throat to replace the old ones broken in biting out the last foe's heart.
    Romulans: left one homeworld, lost another, third time's the charm?
  • carcharodon1975carcharodon1975 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    I'm surprised. Some of you have been here long enough to remember what they did last time the mail system was getting into this state; they purged people's mail.

    How quickly folks forget.

    What do you think will happen if they do?Do you think it will go over well with existing players?Do you think that potential player/customers will invest in a game that at random will delete things they worked hard for or bought with Zen a.k.a money?

    A very dangerous statement....
    The PWE/Cryptic sweatshop...not where the game is made,but where the game is played!

    Take back your home,end the grind!


    Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
  • felderburgfelderburg Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    I'm surprised. Some of you have been here long enough to remember what they did last time the mail system was getting into this state; they purged people's mail.

    How quickly folks forget.

    I honestly don't remember anything like this. And even if my memory is faulty, I don't think there's anywhere that any rule explicitly states "Thou shalt not store items in the mail system." If there is, I would like to see it, because I have TONS of BOffs that I got from DOff missions or wherever, and I simply don't have room for them in my inventory (let alone the laughably small 12-BO storage in the roster). I also don't really see much point in selling blue BOffs on the exchange, since they tend to go for super cheap.
  • talientalien Member Posts: 712 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    I'm surprised. Some of you have been here long enough to remember what they did last time the mail system was getting into this state; they purged people's mail.

    How quickly folks forget.

    If an ISP with unlimited serverside email storage purged it because people were using it to store files that they had no room on their hard drive for, what do you think would happen?

    Cryptic doing that would be even worse in a way, because as so many people have correctly pointed out, cryptic itself caused the main underlying issue with the unbalanced distribution from doff packs. I could easily see that resulting in people reversing charges due to losing items they paid real money for.
  • williamjanewaywilliamjaneway Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    This wasn't a stealth nerf; this was emergency maintenance. The mail system was being broken, and that breaking was affecting other things.

    And those of you who were abusing the mail system for free item storage KNEW you were doing something unintended, and thus knew eventually the free ride would come to a stop. There is an easy solution to the "problem" of having too many white doffs:

    Lower your Exchange prices for them. They'll sell, prices will come down, and people won't feel the need to store them anymore because they'll be plentiful in the Exchange. Put the EC in your fleet bank, and let your officers use it to buy the doffs they need for the fleet projects. Or keep the EC yourself, and buy the doffs for your fleet.

    This will work if there's a limit on storage, which there now is. Now the market needs to adjust, which will take time. It'll take less time if you help it instead of fighting it.

    Please may I direct your attention to the features matrix that specifies gold members unlimited access to in game mail, if you would be so kind to redirect me to a link that defines unlimited. In the dictionary to 100 I will gladly amend the post appropriately but to me. 100 seems like a limit.

    http://sto.perfectworld.com/about/freetoplay/features-matrix
  • koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Please may I direct your attention to the features matrix that specifies gold members unlimited access to in game mail, if you would be so kind to redirect me to a link that defines unlimited. In the dictionary to 100 I will gladly amend the post appropriately but to me. 100 seems like a limit.

    http://sto.perfectworld.com/about/freetoplay/features-matrix


    Unlimited often means 'We don't actually expect you to use TOO MUCH', see telco's unlimited data for an example.

    In any case...
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Unlimited often means 'We don't actually expect you to use TOO MUCH', see telco's unlimited data for an example.

    In any case...

    There has always been an attachment limit but few have reached that limit. This new limit is 4% of the old limit but nobody in an official capacity will admit that anything was changed, so we have no way to start a meaningful conversation about it, nor have any recourse if we lose everything.

    ...But a purge of the mail will start a chain reaction Cryptic may not recover from.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • daemonhelddaemonheld Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Please may I direct your attention to the features matrix that specifies gold members unlimited access to in game mail, if you would be so kind to redirect me to a link that defines unlimited. In the dictionary to 100 I will gladly amend the post appropriately but to me. 100 seems like a limit.

    http://sto.perfectworld.com/about/freetoplay/features-matrix

    Please, may I .. redirect your attention *back* to the Features Matrix...

    If you actually read the portion on "Unlimited Mail" you'd have noticed the "limit" isn't in regard to how many emails you can house, but rather who you can mail to.

    You (and others) have been knowingly (or unknowingly) taking advantage of an unintended benefit of code the mail system had. They have now "plugged the hole" on that "exploit".

    Also, take note of the bottom of the matrix list where it explicitly states, "NOTE: Subject to Change."

    Jolan'tru
  • williamjanewaywilliamjaneway Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Unlimited often means 'We don't actually expect you to use TOO MUCH', see telco's unlimited data for an example.

    In any case...

    I appreciate the unlimited ' fair usage' policy but the former 500 mails 2500 items was the fair usage data package. This current option is the 'basic no frills' package.

    And again if they implement this then surely that should be the silver option and the original option should be gold members. Thus encouraging subscribers that benefit from that feature. Win win for users and cryptic.

    I will echo other posts. The intentional lack of publicising and recognising this change is poor management. Customers, paying or otherwise should be treated with dignity respect and courtesy otherwise they no longer stay customers. There are people paid to monitor these forums and keep in touch with the user base. They should seek the information from whoever the appropriate person is and feed that back to us, head in the sand attitude or dictatorship attitude is poor business practice.

    Once the 'delete' mail issue is fixed the limit won't affect me but that said I don't agree with the change. It's restricting the game to other users and taking out another area of enjoyment, this is a game, not a career. Unfortunately they nerf things to force you into career mode. And to prolong achievements and progression.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    daemonheld wrote: »

    Please, may I .. redirect your attention *back* to the Features Matrix...

    If you actually read the portion on "Unlimited Mail" you'd have noticed the "limit" isn't in regard to how many emails you can house, but rather who you can mail to.

    You (and others) have been knowingly (or unknowingly) taking advantage of an unintended benefit of code the mail system had. They have now "plugged the hole" on that "exploit".

    Also, take note of the bottom of the matrix list where it explicitly states, "NOTE: Subject to Change."

    Jolan'tru

    You seem to be under the mistaken notion that our use of the mail system somehow affects your gameplay. If you quit drinking their kool-aid for a second and think about how e-mail attachments actually work you'll realize the attachment limit has nothing at all to do with game or server performance and is only a way to channel users into another pay-to-use system authored by your game creators.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • williamjanewaywilliamjaneway Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    daemonheld wrote: »

    Please, may I .. redirect your attention *back* to the Features Matrix...

    If you actually read the portion on "Unlimited Mail" you'd have noticed the "limit" isn't in regard to how many emails you can house, but rather who you can mail to.

    You (and others) have been knowingly (or unknowingly) taking advantage of an unintended benefit of code the mail system had. They have now "plugged the hole" on that "exploit".

    Also, take note of the bottom of the matrix list where it explicitly states, "NOTE: Subject to Change."

    Jolan'tru

    The subject to change is anything with the [?] in game mail is not one of them for gold members and if you look at the exemptions on the limited access, having any of those exemptions puts you under the gold mail category. Yes it doesn't specify anything further to item limits. Hence why it should be assumed under fair usage there arnt any restricted limits

    I will also point out my mail isn't used for excessive storage as knowingly or unknowingly exploiting. Again with the exploiting. What states that this is an unintended benefit, they may have plugged a hole, but not due to it being an exploit but a shift in the way thy want to operate the mail, it doesn't mean the previous system is an exploit it merely means some manager has made the decision to change the process, in this case not positively and obviously causing some players to suffer.

    Ill give an example, you currently can wear any shoes to work you like, for the last 5 years, you get a new boss and they specify thst all staff wear black smart shoes at all time, does that mean you have been exploiting your opportunity to wear any type/colour of shoe previously, of course not, it just means there's been a policy shift through a management decision.

    Sometimes things change knowingly for the better/worse, sometimes unknowingly and sometimes because the person making the decision has no idea how that decision makes an impact and thus cannot weigh up proportional options. And either way doesn't care.
  • daemonhelddaemonheld Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    You seem to be under the mistaken notion that our use of the mail system somehow affects your gameplay. If you quit drinking their kool-aid for a second and think about how e-mail attachments actually work you'll realize the attachment limit has nothing at all to do with game or server performance and is only a way to channel users into another pay-to-use system authored by your game creators.


    This is most likely completely true. However, it's their game. It's their rules. They have disclaimers all over the place basically telling you "if you don't like it, tough tukkis."

    The mail issue is something the powers-that-be feel is an exploit. They've plugged the hole.

    How is any of that supposed to be take in a way you feel I'm "drinking the koolaid"? If anyone is under any unreal expectation on them reverting things back the way they were, it isn't me.

    Jolan'tru
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    daemonheld wrote: »
    This is most likely completely true. However, it's their game. It's their rules. They have disclaimers all over the place basically telling you "if you don't like it, tough tukkis."

    The mail issue is something the powers-that-be feel is an exploit. They've plugged the hole.

    How is any of that supposed to be take in a way you feel I'm "drinking the koolaid"? If anyone is under any unreal expectation on them reverting things back the way they were, it isn't me.

    Jolan'tru

    They're wording was 'it's being used differently that how we imagined it should be used'. They built the system, we used it within the limits they put in.

    Remember those words next time they change something and don't tell you about it, perhaps it's something that you use ingame, and if you don't like it, tuff tukkis.
    ;)
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • daedalus27daedalus27 Member Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    You seem to be under the mistaken notion that our use of the mail system somehow affects your gameplay. If you quit drinking their kool-aid for a second and think about how e-mail attachments actually work you'll realize the attachment limit has nothing at all to do with game or server performance and is only a way to channel users into another pay-to-use system authored by your game creators.


    Thats all well and good, except there is presently no substitute mechanism (pay or otherwise) replacing this storage method. They killed doff and long term storage which is absolutely needed due to starbase construction and the way items stack/bind without an adequate substitute. I can understand they want to monitize what they can to pay for the game and make some money, but this seems more like an arbitrary unintended change by developers who do not understand how many utilize their game. There are solutions here, but first we need the developers to acknowledge the issue.

    There have been many suggestions in this thread on how to alter the storage situation and allow them to make money at it. People aren't against a game they enjoy from profiting so that it can continue to exist. The problem here is an unannounced change without any stated reason which alters how people are forced to play due to design decisions without any adequate alternative means to adjust gameplay.

    There have been many suggestions in this thread on how to deal with this. Some of these highly workable and profitable solutions include; unlimiting storage purchase options, changing how doffs are used in starbases in to tokens used for projects, a doff storage bank, chaning so that starbase projects can use any catagory of doff, allowing the purchase of mail attachment slots, etc. There are solutions out there, but making an announced change without any plan to provide the needed storage capacity shows that the developers either don't know their players and how they deal with the games limits, or simply don't care. Either case is disturbing.

    TL/DR: Changes are fine, just make sure there are solutions in place (pay or otherwise) so players can continue to use the game.
  • shaltorshaltor Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    This whole mail thing reminds me of another Cryptic "change" for City of Heroes....Enhancement Diversification.


    "Enhancement Diversification," or ED imposed a point of sharply diminished returns on how far each individual aspect of each power could be improved; prior to ED, a player could focus all enhancements on only one of a power's aspects and receive fully cumulative benefits.

    Cryptic's stated reason behind ED was "to promote the use of more different types of Enhancements in powers." Critics derided ED, saying that its universal reduction of the maximum possible effectiveness of all characters made it a global nerf; that many defensive powers had now been significantly weakened for two issues in a row, frustrating especially those who specialize in such powers and invalidating many of their existing tactics; that some powers cannot legally or usefully accept more than one type of enhancement and thus cannot be "diversified"; that it was deceitful to enact such a severe change less than a month after officially announcing "we're [Cryptic] finished making large changes to the power sets," and that ED was too fundamental a change to implement so long after the original launch.

    ED also received strong negative feedback from the player community; the response thread to ED on the official City of Heroes message forum exceeded 3,500 replies in the first 36 hours, and soon after grew so large that a second thread was required due to forum software limits"

    Along with that, the player base only became aware of this change because a beta tester broke NDA to tell everyone what was coming down the road. It seemed apparent that Cryptic decided to change this mechanic w/o any feedback whatsoever.

    I guess some habits never die.
  • koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited June 2013

    I resent your false accusation that me or anyone else "knew" we were "doing something unintended" and therefore "abusing" anything. You're doing something wrong by accusing us of this, and you should apologize. This is quite literally adding insult to injury, syberghost.

    I also want to you to explain to me in detail how the hundreds of dollars I paid for a lifetime subscription for which one of the advertised benefits was "unlimited" mail access means I was taking any kind of "free ride."

    I am fairly certain that "insulting subscribers on the forums" is not part of your responsibilities as a community moderator and I would like to ask for the contact information of your supervisor so that I can make a complaint against you
    .

    That.. isn't insulting you. Also if they agree..
    (Besides, speaking as someone who hears that all the time..)

    Also: Yes, people holding more mail and items actually does take up more space. I imagine it's not as huge as an actual mailstore, but there's a reason why a lot of corporations have mail limits and attachment limits. A good one.
  • koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    It is insulting to accuse paid subscribers, the game's customers, of knowingly abusing the mail system.

    The advertised feature matrix for paid subscription lists unlimited access to mail as a feature provided in return for payment.

    It is therefore also insulting to accuse paying customers of taking a "free ride" for making use of the features they paid for.

    I have emailed customer service with this, and also emailed the community moderator "syberghost" on his gmail account asking him for the contact information of his supervisor so that I can file a complaint about his conduct.

    I believe it would be appropriate for him to apologize in this thread to me and others he has insulted with these remarks.

    :rolleyes: You're assuming a bit much, but go ahead.
  • robdmcrobdmc Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Whats going to happen is not people are going to create alt accounts just to hold mail.
  • syberghostsyberghost Member Posts: 1,711 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Hi,

    This thread has now most definitely run its course, and isn?t providing any constructive feedback, so due to this as well as the high number of flaming/trolling posts and/or reported posts in this thread, I'm closing this thread down.


    1. For future reference please remember that it helps a great deal when posts which violate the PWE Community Rules and Policies are not responded to and are reported via submitting a Forums and Website Ticket (click here).

    2. If you think any of your posts within a thread have violated the PWE Community Rules and Policies, please edit your posts before a moderator takes action.

    3. If you feel you need to get in touch with PWE BranFlakes to discuss the actions taken by any Community Moderator, you can do so by submitting a Forums and Website ticket (click here).

    Cheers, :)

    syberghost
    Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
This discussion has been closed.