Okay I'm not reading 10 pages but most of the "plot holes" can be explained with theories that are logical.
For instance Praxis... seemingly exploded prematurely? Did it not also do the same thing and leave the Klingon Empire desperate leading to peace?
Lets not forget the Klingons did capture Niro and his crew in the first movie (well, that part isn't really shown but it happened). They had access to a LOT of Romulans. Some of them HAD to know the history.
This is my guess. The Klingons were able to get the information about their moon exploding from the Romulans from the future. They then dealt with it. Meaning they might have safely "dismantled" or intelligently blew it up in a not so damaging way THEMSELVES to avoid their future plight which forced them into peace with the Federation.
At this point in history war did seem inevitable. Those era of Klingons probably would have started something had their moon not exploded. It forced them into a peace. It would be interesting to see how this development of possibly having that event NOT happen affects this dimension's future.
Then there are a few more things that are harder to explain. Why a shuttle can't handle a volcano from way above but their tiny suits can from freakin' directly in it I'll never know. Transwarp Transporters strike again (I'm going to assume their discovering by scotty was made after TNG and DS9 by a really old Mr. Scott). Kronos being so incredibly close to Earth (well, to be fair this has been hugely inconsistent in ALL of Star Trek).
Okay I'm not reading 10 pages but most of the "plot holes" can be explained with theories that are logical.
For instance Praxis... seemingly exploded prematurely? Did it not also do the same thing and leave the Klingon Empire desperate leading to peace?
Lets not forget the Klingons did capture Niro and his crew in the first movie (well, that part isn't really shown but it happened). They had access to a LOT of Romulans. Some of them HAD to know the history.
This is my guess. The Klingons were able to get the information about their moon exploding from the Romulans from the future. They then dealt with it. Meaning they might have safely "dismantled" or intelligently blew it up in a not so damaging way THEMSELVES to avoid their future plight which forced them into peace with the Federation.
At this point in history war did seem inevitable. Those era of Klingons probably would have started something had their moon not exploded. It forced them into a peace. It would be interesting to see how this development of possibly having that event NOT happen affects this dimension's future.
Then there are a few more things that are harder to explain. Why a shuttle can't handle a volcano from way above but their tiny suits can from freakin' directly in it I'll never know. Transwarp Transporters strike again (I'm going to assume their discovering by scotty was made after TNG and DS9 by a really old Mr. Scott). Kronos being so incredibly close to Earth (well, to be fair this has been hugely inconsistent in ALL of Star Trek).
But still. Good movie. Not as good as the first.
it wasnt the heat that was affecting the shuttles...it was the soot/smoke that was damaging the engines
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Okay I'm not reading 10 pages but most of the "plot holes" can be explained with theories that are logical.
For instance Praxis... seemingly exploded prematurely? Did it not also do the same thing and leave the Klingon Empire desperate leading to peace?
If you remember Star Trek 6, some Klingons wanted to go to war. So maybe the destruction of Praxis forced their hand, to start a war to gain new planets and resources.
Lets not forget the Klingons did capture Niro and his crew in the first movie (well, that part isn't really shown but it happened). They had access to a LOT of Romulans. Some of them HAD to know the history.
If I remember right, Nero's crew was like in the 30s. Not exactly "A lot".
And even if they did know the history, I doubt they would've revealed it to the Klingons. After all, the Klingons would not know, so they couldn't interograte it out of them. Or maybe Nero purposely let out some information about Praxis in tricking the Klingons to speed up their production and destroy Praxis decades sooner. That way another threat to Romulus would've been handled.
This is my guess. The Klingons were able to get the information about their moon exploding from the Romulans from the future. They then dealt with it. Meaning they might have safely "dismantled" or intelligently blew it up in a not so damaging way THEMSELVES to avoid their future plight which forced them into peace with the Federation.
Sorry, but that is a really illogical explaination. Klingons aren't stupid enough to purposely destroy their moon. Especially with the ecological disater it ended up causing.
At this point in history war did seem inevitable. Those era of Klingons probably would have started something had their moon not exploded. It forced them into a peace. It would be interesting to see how this development of possibly having that event NOT happen affects this dimension's future.
Hints at war was eluding to the events in TOS. Klingons were expanding, which was stopped due to Kirk and the Organians. In JJverse, the Klingons faced a disaster and being agressive for a reason - to expand.
Transwarp Transporters strike again (I'm going to assume their discovering by scotty was made after TNG and DS9 by a really old Mr. Scott). Kronos being so incredibly close to Earth (well, to be fair this has been hugely inconsistent in ALL of Star Trek).
Who knows with the Prime Universe, there was a definite longer use of transporters and the ability to transport to ships at warp because of Mr. Scott, but I'll never understand the Transwarp Beaming since there is no evidence it was used in the Prime Universe outside of Iconian Gateways.
As for Earth to Qo'nos, its commonly called "speed of story". :rolleyes:
If you remember Star Trek 6, some Klingons wanted to go to war. So maybe the destruction of Praxis forced their hand, to start a war to gain new planets and resources.
If I remember right, Nero's crew was like in the 30s. Not exactly "A lot".
And even if they did know the history, I doubt they would've revealed it to the Klingons. After all, the Klingons would not know, so they couldn't interograte it out of them. Or maybe Nero purposely let out some information about Praxis in tricking the Klingons to speed up their production and destroy Praxis decades sooner. That way another threat to Romulus would've been handled.
The point is it's possible. There are any number of reasons. They could have gotten then info from a Romulan from Nero's ship or any other number of logical explanations. I can't say it's unrealistic that a Romulan might have betrayed Nero or for whatever reason revealed a lot.
Sorry, but that is a really illogical explaination. Klingons aren't stupid enough to purposely destroy their moon. Especially with the ecological disater it ended up causing.
I disagree. If the damage was severe enough the Klingons might have figured it was inevitable. Maybe even stopping their mining and TRIBBLE on that moon would just delay the planet from exploding. We don't know. Perhaps doing it themselves in a "controlled" way was an option. It's logical and possible.
Hints at war was eluding to the events in TOS. Klingons were expanding, which was stopped due to Kirk and the Organians. In JJverse, the Klingons faced a disaster and being agressive for a reason - to expand.
I don't see how your second part isn't an assumption. And the first part just delayed war. It didn't stop it. Heck, time is changed enough the Organians might not even do that.
Who knows with the Prime Universe, there was a definite longer use of transporters and the ability to transport to ships at warp because of Mr. Scott, but I'll never understand the Transwarp Beaming since there is no evidence it was used in the Prime Universe outside of Iconian Gateways.
As for Earth to Qo'nos, its commonly called "speed of story". :rolleyes:
My best guess here is that Mr. Scott invented the calculations at a ripe old age, retired, post-Voyager. I cannot fathom any other possibility.
Maybe someone here can explain this to me...why the hate for the JJ-verse
The short answer is JJ is a no talent hack, and it's only because of the "New" Hollywood mindset that he still gets work.
Yes, Hollywood has always been about the vapid, vacuous, sycophantic and the problem children of America, but there was a time, when at least when these people made a movie, they sloughed off the slop and made a good movie, before going back to their hookers, booze and blow.
But it's the this new hollywood mindset, where nobody cares to make a good movie, or even a decent movie anymore, they figure they can slap whatever together and bam, sell it to the masses. Quantity not Quality is the buzzword in Hollywood now days, and while I can't put all of it on Abrams shoulders, he is definitely the poster boy for that attitude.
the fact ALL of his movies have been considered derivative to the point where it passes Homage to just plain Rip-off, and STILL decides to work with the moron twins (Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci) tells me that not only is he a no talent hack of a director, he's a hack of a producer and writer, that he can't recognize that his "friends" are just TRIBBLE. This is why they say "Never work with Family, Friends, Animals or Children if you can avoid it."
If Abrams was smart he would distance himself from the moron twins, however I feel that as bad as they are, Abrams knows he's worse. So in his mind, it's better to have sucky ideas and be able to blame someone else vs, having truly TRIBBLE ideas and having no one to blame.
Why do you think that Abrams is trying to attach himself to the two biggest scifi franchises ever like a Lamprey, because if you look, every attempt to make something "original" has always been a rip off of something else Cloverfield = Godzilla, Super8 = Every Spielberg movie ever made. so he realizes, he can't be original, so leech off of already established franchises. But he can't even do that well.
So if he can't be original, and can't at least be entertainingly derivative, what use is he?
As far as into darkness is concerned, it was better slightly then the first movie. At the very least he limited the physics canon breaking to about 2 times, and I ignored the historical canon breakages because I kept telling myself, this is an alternate universe, so it doesn't matter.
So what we have left to critique is the fact that Abrams now contradicts himself, his whole reason, his BIG explanation as to why he changed the time line was to create a new timeline in which to create new stories and not be limited to what has already been established, a reboot.
Yet, what is the very first thing he does out the gate of that reboot???? He rehashes previous movies, and blatantly rips them off, not 'homages' because that requires subtlety.
If you want to understand what a properly executed homage looks like, please look at the works of Quentin Tarantino, who love em or hate em, at least has mastered the art of the homage. Homage is a subtle thing, in fact in some cases so subtle you might not see them the first time seeing the movie, thats the point
Abrams has all the subtlety of a Urinary Tract Infection. Which at least the tract infection can be gotten rid of with enough antibiotics. When abrams does an "homage" it's so in your face, and many cases line for line, shot for shot copies, that's not homage that's theft, that's ripping off.
So long story short, what is "Into Darkness" and what should you expect. First, the Standard Abramsian fare of lens flash and super saturated color from the first film, the dialogue was a bit better, Abrams at least managed to provide the classic Startrek "Elevator talk" scenes, which allowed for breaks in the scene pieces. The plot is essentially Space Seed, with a several bits of Wrath of Kahn dusted in for good measure, a few blatant historical inaccuracies to make it seem like Abrams has been paying attention to the franchise as a whole, shake it up, mix and serve over ice.
when your not paying attention to the plot, which don't worry your not missing anything, you will get a couple of kicks out of the 'references' to other works, which when it comes to blatantly passing the artistic buck in terms of writing, Abrams has in spades. There are numerous references and easter eggs peppered through out this film, which that will be part of the fun, since a good story certainly won't be in your focus by about the 40 minute mark.
So don't go in expecting something original and new, and mindblowing, you not watching the right director for that, realize that. But if your looking for something with a semi coherent plot, and lots of blowing stuff up with LAZORS, and 'references' out the butt then you got the right movie jack.
umm...maybe you should watch TMP again....that JJ monstrosity looks NOTHING like the Enterprise from TMP to ST VI. JJ is simply converting the ST IP into a SW or GQ knock-off. Just say the new movie and it was complete and utter TRIBBLE.
I honestly don't believe you've seen the new movie...
You strike me more as some internet anon that just likes to spew hate
believe what you may, but I saw the movie earlier this afternoon, and while yes, it is better then the first, more trek in it's writing it's still far off from what good trek writing is.
at least they had the fare sense of encountering the trek writers conundrum head on, you'll know it when you see it. And kept the Trek Canon Physics breaking to a minimum. I said a minimum, they still say a couple of nonsensical things, but at least it's only about 2 times they do it.
BTW, You can't be an anon when you identify yourself, I don't need to be anon, I stand by what I say.
I liked JJ Trek and I don't find it vapid or shallow at all. I thought he did great reintroducing Star Trek to a new generation.
I'm getting really tired of people who claim to be 'true trekkies' start bashing anything new. It reinforces the stereotype that Trekkies are unpleasing uber-nerds that complain about the littlest things and then forget that their precious bible of old shows and movies weren't exactly perfect either.
You people who complain that Hollywood is vapid or shallow or claim that Abrams was a talentless hack...well, that's your opinion and I respect that. But while you sit in your corners dreaming up about the good ol' days which probably didn't exist, the new Star Trek films has brought in new blood to the franchise and you know what? It's good. It's reimagined, it's fun, it's extravagant, and it's still reasonably faithful to the past. Abrams did what Hollywood sent him out to do: bring Star Trek back to the mainstream.
I've known people who wouldn't dare touch Star Trek with a ten foot pole before actually become interested. They've even gone back to purchase the old movies and watch the shows. All because the reboot was an easy introduction into the Star Trek universe.
So I'm going to kick back and rewatch Into Darkness again with my newly converted friends because it's awesome. Simply awesome. And haters? Well, they're always gonna hate!
Okay I'm not reading 10 pages but most of the "plot holes" can be explained with theories that are logical.
For instance Praxis... seemingly exploded prematurely? Did it not also do the same thing and leave the Klingon Empire desperate leading to peace?
Lets not forget the Klingons did capture Niro and his crew in the first movie (well, that part isn't really shown but it happened). They had access to a LOT of Romulans. Some of them HAD to know the history.
This is my guess. The Klingons were able to get the information about their moon exploding from the Romulans from the future. They then dealt with it. Meaning they might have safely "dismantled" or intelligently blew it up in a not so damaging way THEMSELVES to avoid their future plight which forced them into peace with the Federation.
At this point in history war did seem inevitable. Those era of Klingons probably would have started something had their moon not exploded. It forced them into a peace. It would be interesting to see how this development of possibly having that event NOT happen affects this dimension's future.
Then there are a few more things that are harder to explain. Why a shuttle can't handle a volcano from way above but their tiny suits can from freakin' directly in it I'll never know. Transwarp Transporters strike again (I'm going to assume their discovering by scotty was made after TNG and DS9 by a really old Mr. Scott). Kronos being so incredibly close to Earth (well, to be fair this has been hugely inconsistent in ALL of Star Trek).
But still. Good movie. Not as good as the first.
Maybe with the destruction of one of their fleets by the Narada forced them to over-mine Praxis. Also with the destruction of Vulcan they would see it as the perfect time to invade the Federation which would also encourage them over-mine when gearing up for war.
I think Praxis being destroyed so early would only hasten their desire for expansion. Section 31 knew this, hence Marcus being so convinced that war is coming.
I wouldn't call it a joke, but I laughed at it as well. In fact, I bet if you watch Trekkies watching the movie, half the time, we're just smiling idiots with all of the "homages."
You people who complain that Hollywood is vapid or shallow or claim that Abrams was a talentless hack
Well first off, Hollywood IS vapid and shallow, that's a fact, try visiting there once and you will see what I mean, ask anyone who lives in CA, Hollywood is....a different kind of animal, let's just say that.
Abrams IS a talentless hack, the man entire movie repertoire is completely derivative. I don't understand why people defend this man, if this was ANY other director, ANY OTHER person, the same people who defend him would be critical of that person.
You call me a hater, fine, but a least I'm not a hypocrite. Trekkies don't hate new things, they don't even hate Abrams because he tried to introduce a new thing, they are angry that a TRIBBLE director and his TRIBBLE writers, who the only reason they get work is because they follow Abrams around, it's because those people were allowed to work on something like star trek, and now star wars.
If trekkies would of heard that say Jon Favreau or Joss Whedon were working on Star Trek, there wouldn't of been a problem, no 'Hate' as your call it, because those guys know their stuff and have actual talent.
Let me put it this way, look at how Abrams scored the Star Wars directorship, Disney went through NINE that's 9, directors who said No BEFORE they even got to Abrams.
That means Disney went through 9 different directors, even Guillermo del Toro for christ sake, and THEN contacted abrams, I mean if they doesn't tell you they were scraping the bottom of the barrel I don't know what to tell you.
But hey, don't want to believe me, think it's just "trekkie rage", ok, fine. And when they mess up star wars, I'm sure the subsequent rage from Star Wars fans will also be just "geek rage".
Because apparently standards have gone out the window and having standards just means your what?
"your just closed minded"
a "hater"
"you just don't get it."
I absolutely LOVE the last one, because it's as if they are saying that abrams work is akin to Plato's Dialogues or Socrates' invention of the scientific method. As if it's some deep, thought provoking provoking work when anyone with a brain and at least some 1st year film school knowledge can see that Abrams is more transparent then Wonder Woman's Jet.
and if your detecting anger in my and any other "haters" posts, it's because the anger comes from the fact that Abrams is in a position that he does not deserve, and that there are others, MANY others who deserve the recognition and opportunity to shine brighter then Abrams ever could. People who have talent that is wasted because they refuse to fit into Hollywood's box of pop culture and TRIBBLE.
Why do you think the most popular form of television show is "Reality TV", which reenforce the stereotypes that men are to be these stupid cave men and women are vapid, insecure, vacuous TRIBBLE, and that these qualities are desirable in people today. Going beyond just Trek, we don't have though provoking TV and Movies anymore. People by and large don't THINK Critically for themselves.
And people with talent, who do have thought provoking ideas are left by the wayside, while those who have no talent but are simply well connected have all the power, not by virtue of their ability but by the people they know. And THAT's why people are pissed that Abrams has been helming this thing.
Because there are many other directors who would and could do a better job. even just from a sheer pride in their work aspect.
And this sentiment is apparently hitting hollywood, because one of the reasons you see things like Ender's Game finally being made into a movie, or Neil Blomkamp's new entry Elisium, is because that is what people want, they want smart as well as action.
And it's getting there, better then it was a few years ago. But basically if the trend continues, and the bar is set higher and higher, Abrams and those like him will be out of a job.
And to be honest the idea makes me happy, that people are having standards again, and that there is only so much that people will put up with.
So what we have left to critique is the fact that Abrams now contradicts himself, his whole reason, his BIG explanation as to why he changed the time line was to create a new timeline in which to create new stories and not be limited to what has already been established, a reboot.
Yet, what is the very first thing he does out the gate of that reboot???? He rehashes previous movies, and blatantly rips them off, not 'homages' because that requires subtlety. -
I have to agree whole heartedly here. With the infinite story lines that could have been created I am disappointed that everyone involved with the franchise is recycling story lines. It defeated the point of the first movie. Don't get me wrong, I liked both movies but admittedly the sequel just mashed up too many of the original TOS movies into one for my liking.
But this trend isn't new. Hollywood seems to be experiencing writers block in general. The majority of films that have been coming out have either been remakes or rein-visioning traditional story lines. Very little new and innovative material has come out with only a handful of exceptions imho.
Why do you think the most popular form of television show is "Reality TV", which reenforce the stereotypes that men are to be these stupid cave men and women are vapid, insecure, vacuous TRIBBLE, and that these qualities are desirable in people today. Going beyond just Trek, we don't have though provoking TV and Movies anymore. People by and large don't THINK Critically for themselves.
This is actually very true! I see it first hand, whereby my students have difficulty thinking outside the box, let alone reading an article or chapter and being able to discuss it critically. Like it or not, it's actually all inter-related.
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." - Rocky Balboa (2006)
Maybe with the destruction of one of their fleets by the Narada forced them to over-mine Praxis. Also with the destruction of Vulcan they would see it as the perfect time to invade the Federation which would also encourage them over-mine when gearing up for war.
I think Praxis being destroyed so early would only hasten their desire for expansion. Section 31 knew this, hence Marcus being so convinced that war is coming.
No No no, Praxis was their main energy production facility, without it they can not maintain the Imperial Warmachine.
Without it they would be NO war, they wouldn't be able to maintain it. Also depending on if you consider the books canon, Praxis destruction was also the failure of the Klingons attempt to (re)create their own Genesis Device.
Basically, If they WAS Praxis, again we are assuming it is, Admiral Marcus' concerns are not valid, for without energy no war machine.
I have to agree whole heartedly here. With the infinite story lines that could have been created I am disappointed that everyone involved with the franchise is recycling story lines. It defeated the point of the first movie. Don't get me wrong, I liked both movies but admittedly the sequel just mashed up too many of the original TOS movies into one for my liking.
But this trend isn't new. Hollywood seems to be experiencing writers block in general. The majority of films that have been coming out have either been remakes or rein-visioning traditional story lines. Very little new and innovative material has come out with only a handful of exceptions imho.
As I mentioned in another thread, I think of JJ-trek as the equivalent of Marvel's Ultimate comics line - which basically recycles existing characters and storylines, but updates the characters for contemporary audiences and raises the stakes on the stories. That is pretty much a nutshell description of Star Trek Into Darkness. JJ seems to be treating TOS as though it were a comic book property rather than a TV series.
Just my opinion here, but I think several of the folks here who are so upset by the "fact" that movies have suddenly gotten shallow and derivative have a distorted view of film history.
This isn't some disturbing new trend. This has been the norm since the invention of the motion picture. In the 50s, for every "Maltese Falcon" you had a hundred cheap ripoffs. For every great sci-fi adventure, you had a hundred "It Came From Out Space" style ripoffs.
The same was true of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. For every great zombie film, you have a hundred horrible zombie films. For every great vampire film, you have a hundred horrible vampire films. There isn't some downturn in film quality. What it's like now is what it has always been like.
And (again, in my opinion) I think you might not be giving popcorn flicks enough credit. I loved Schindler's List, but I also loved all the Hammer films from the 70s. Good, simple fun has value in movies. If all movies had to teach us some sort of lesson or bring light to some social atrocity, I think I'd stop watching movies. Sometimes, we just want to munch popcorn and go on a ride.
For me, the new Star Trek movies do a spectacular job of that.
And let's not overstate the greatness of Trek. Yes, Wrath of Khan was a truly great movie. But its themes weren't exactly new or mind-blowing. Wrath of Khan was essentially a reboot of TMP. Its themes were totally derivative of TMP.
Kirk is dealing with getting older and is having a tough time in his role as an administrator, so when a crisis happens and the Enterprise is the only ship in range to deal with it, Kirk uses the crisis to get the Enterprise back. The existing captain gets demoted to first officer, then - in the climax of the film - that first officer dies, leaving Kirk to command the Enterprise.
Which movie am I talking about there, WoK or TMP?
So let's not pretend Abrams is the only director to completely re-use themes from previous Trek movies. Wok did it to TMP. And you know what WoK added to TMP's themes? Action. It added explosions and firefights. Which is precisely what Abrams did.
Bottom line, Abrams turned Star Trek into popcorn flicks. You might not like that, and that's fine. You absolutely have the right to hate it, and anybody who bashes you for hating it is just wrong. But we shouldn't act like there's some inherent evil going on here.
There's a place for popcorn flicks. I personally love them. Whether Trek should be one is up for debate, but it's not indicative of some deep Hollywood downturn. This is how it has always been.
No No no, Praxis was their main energy production facility, without it they can not maintain the Imperial Warmachine.
Without it they would be NO war, they wouldn't be able to maintain it. Also depending on if you consider the books canon, Praxis destruction was also the failure of the Klingons attempt to (re)create their own Genesis Device.
Basically, If they WAS Praxis, again we are assuming it is, Admiral Marcus' concerns are not valid, for without energy no war machine.
Compare it to history. In the second world war, the German military needed more oil than what it could produce. Most of it was already coming from Russia. With the increased likelyhood of the Americans coming into the war and the inability to invade Britain, it hastened their plans to invade Russia for its oil before a second front could be opened up.
It's a similar situation the Klingons face with the destruction of Praxis. Gorkon was more amicable and open to peace, but imagine if the Klingons in this timeline have a more warmongering chancellor, someone more like General Chang for example. Invasion of the Federation would be seen as the most attractive solution.
Well first off, Hollywood IS vapid and shallow, that's a fact, try visiting there once and you will see what I mean, ask anyone who lives in CA, Hollywood is....a different kind of animal, let's just say that.
You describe it as new hollywood. Which means that your point can easily be ignored. Not much has changed about the business of getting motion pictures made throughout its history.
I love hearing that the new films had TRIBBLE writers, blah blah, bad directors, blah blah, production crew who were not fans, blah blah.
This is these last two Trek films are the first to acknowledge Trek novel and comics, in fact this last film acknowledges two off-screen references that are in fact from the tie-in video game and the tie-in comics. Here's the biggest nod to fans, Uhura's first name.
The script writers are very much Trek fans and the director doesn't have to be, but at least he acknowledges the fandom. Haters tend to overlook a lot of things in their hatred pursuit of a target. Yes, Praxis was messed up, what does that have to do with the story? The yelling of Khan by Spock felt a little cring-worthy, but given the story context and what Spock went through up to that point, very appropriate.
I enjoyed the movie despite the fact that I had reservations about spoilers of TWOK remakes, but it wasn't a TWOK remake, it had elements of that movie, just like it had elements of Space Seed, and to me it felt very much like the novel, Dreadnought, which I enjoyed immensely, its the only Diane Carey book that I liked.
I watched the movie just five days from watching Iron Man 3 and its nice twist, so I liked that aspect of it. Overall, I enjoyed the movie and enjoyed the new additions to the Trek universe.
Fresh after watching movie. And I just want to puke scene after scene. ST 2009 was way better in terms of common sense about Star Trek. Here? This movie would be complete fiasco if wasnt name Star Trek.
Secret base in Sol System, shuttle aproach it, no **** were given Didnt know that Klingon Home World didnt have any ships around it to protect it. Guess all where somewhere else. Hand Com of Scotty have range from Sol to Kronos?
I can go on and on. Thanks God JJ is out and SW will now have to endure his ideas.
I really want to rip my eyes after this movie.
Positive sides? Typical american movie with big flashes no bang. Nice for eyes but your mind will scream
So basically it was more forgettable than the 2009 film.
So yeah, that really makes me more confused with bermanator's commentary. The Klingons definitely do seem a-OK wearing masks. Honor intact.
Those Klingon's could have been from some sort of force/order that wear helmets for some unknown reason; such as a group that actively puts the honor of the Empire above their own by making it hard to distinguish one from another or some sort.
So basically it was more forgettable than the 2009 film.
I didn't think that was possible.
It could be worse. Robotech fans waited for 20 years to get new stories only to get a half-baked movie and a (so far) 7 year unfulfilled promise for more.
It could be worse. Robotech fans waited for 20 years to get new stories only to get a half-baked movie and a (so far) 7 year unfulfilled promise for more.
Now that Carl Macek is dead, I doubt Robotech will be better than what we have. No point in waiting for disappointment.
The Klingons had ridges, even though in TOS, they had no ridges. It's like JJ ignored the two Enterprise episodes which explain the reason there were ridgeless Klingons.
Praxius was destroyed. "Interesting since it should not of done that until much later." But ty for throwing that in there for the fans. Looks like Qo'noS was going threw a nuclear winter because of it.
I guessed it became the Borg testing facility for the Empire, the Klingons took apart the Nerarda in the deleted scenes in the last film, and the D-4's looked rather enhanced, so maybe Praxis blew up early due to experiments on Borg stuff, a nice parallel with Hobus.
I also noticed that Spocks volcano suit was very similar to Kirks skydiving one from Generations.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
In my opinion it was a joke.
The Abrams Films are great... but they are such bad Trek that it can't logically be Canon, theres just so many holes in the stories and Abrams just threw Trek-Law out the window.
Trek-Law and the better-ment of mankind was the back bone of Star Trek, I have yet to see that in Abrams rubbish.
STAR TREK CONTINUES
Episode One - A Single MomentEpisode Two - InfancyEpisode Three - Unto the Breach Episode Four - Head Of A NeedleEpisode Five: The Duality of MenEpisode Six - Redemption Earned Episode Seven - Shattered UniverseEpisode Eight - The Gepetto ConditionEpisode Nine - One Room, Two Officers Episode Ten - Beyond The Farthest StarEpisode Eleven - It's OK, It Won't HurtEpisode Twelve - A Protracted Officer Episode Thirteen - SomewhenEpisode Fourteen - The Boy Who LivedEpisode Fifthteen - Empathy
Where was the betterment of Mankind in TMP, WOK, Search for Spock, Voyage Home, Final Frontier, Undiscovered Country, Generations, First Contact, Nemesis....?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Trek-Law and the better-ment of mankind was the back bone of Star Trek, I have yet to see that in Abrams rubbish.
You're actually ignoring Kirk's message in the end of the film? Also, you're ignoring the fact that this film actually tackled the militarist approach of section 31 and presented it as an antithesis of what starfleet was supposed to be. which was what scotty said.
It's only as deep as you permit it to be. if someone has pride and pre-conceived notions of hate, then it'll be easy to say it's shallow
It could be worse. Robotech fans waited for 20 years to get new stories only to get a half-baked movie and a (so far) 7 year unfulfilled promise for more.
Now that Carl Macek is dead, I doubt Robotech will be better than what we have. No point in waiting for disappointment.
Actually Robotech still lives, providing you go back to the Original Macross series it was based off. You will find at least 4 more series, plus movies and OVAs.
Those Klingon's could have been from some sort of force/order that wear helmets for some unknown reason; such as a group that actively puts the honor of the Empire above their own by making it hard to distinguish one from another or some sort.
Perhaps. But to me, they were wearing helmets to hide their dishonor. You know, this was the time they were recovering from the Retrovirus from Enterprise, that was prevalent in TOS. That or their different apperance is that they found a cure decades earlier.
I guessed it became the Borg testing facility for the Empire, the Klingons took apart the Nerarda in the deleted scenes in the last film, and the D-4's looked rather enhanced, so maybe Praxis blew up early due to experiments on Borg stuff, a nice parallel with Hobus.
This is the part I have no idea what Abrams was doing. The D4 was shown on Enterprise as the precursor to the D7. Yet in the JJverse, they are suddenly like Mini BoPs.
Comments
For instance Praxis... seemingly exploded prematurely? Did it not also do the same thing and leave the Klingon Empire desperate leading to peace?
Lets not forget the Klingons did capture Niro and his crew in the first movie (well, that part isn't really shown but it happened). They had access to a LOT of Romulans. Some of them HAD to know the history.
This is my guess. The Klingons were able to get the information about their moon exploding from the Romulans from the future. They then dealt with it. Meaning they might have safely "dismantled" or intelligently blew it up in a not so damaging way THEMSELVES to avoid their future plight which forced them into peace with the Federation.
At this point in history war did seem inevitable. Those era of Klingons probably would have started something had their moon not exploded. It forced them into a peace. It would be interesting to see how this development of possibly having that event NOT happen affects this dimension's future.
Then there are a few more things that are harder to explain. Why a shuttle can't handle a volcano from way above but their tiny suits can from freakin' directly in it I'll never know. Transwarp Transporters strike again (I'm going to assume their discovering by scotty was made after TNG and DS9 by a really old Mr. Scott). Kronos being so incredibly close to Earth (well, to be fair this has been hugely inconsistent in ALL of Star Trek).
But still. Good movie. Not as good as the first.
it wasnt the heat that was affecting the shuttles...it was the soot/smoke that was damaging the engines
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
If you remember Star Trek 6, some Klingons wanted to go to war. So maybe the destruction of Praxis forced their hand, to start a war to gain new planets and resources.
If I remember right, Nero's crew was like in the 30s. Not exactly "A lot".
And even if they did know the history, I doubt they would've revealed it to the Klingons. After all, the Klingons would not know, so they couldn't interograte it out of them. Or maybe Nero purposely let out some information about Praxis in tricking the Klingons to speed up their production and destroy Praxis decades sooner. That way another threat to Romulus would've been handled.
Sorry, but that is a really illogical explaination. Klingons aren't stupid enough to purposely destroy their moon. Especially with the ecological disater it ended up causing.
Hints at war was eluding to the events in TOS. Klingons were expanding, which was stopped due to Kirk and the Organians. In JJverse, the Klingons faced a disaster and being agressive for a reason - to expand.
Who knows with the Prime Universe, there was a definite longer use of transporters and the ability to transport to ships at warp because of Mr. Scott, but I'll never understand the Transwarp Beaming since there is no evidence it was used in the Prime Universe outside of Iconian Gateways.
As for Earth to Qo'nos, its commonly called "speed of story". :rolleyes:
beep boop beep
The short answer is JJ is a no talent hack, and it's only because of the "New" Hollywood mindset that he still gets work.
Yes, Hollywood has always been about the vapid, vacuous, sycophantic and the problem children of America, but there was a time, when at least when these people made a movie, they sloughed off the slop and made a good movie, before going back to their hookers, booze and blow.
But it's the this new hollywood mindset, where nobody cares to make a good movie, or even a decent movie anymore, they figure they can slap whatever together and bam, sell it to the masses. Quantity not Quality is the buzzword in Hollywood now days, and while I can't put all of it on Abrams shoulders, he is definitely the poster boy for that attitude.
the fact ALL of his movies have been considered derivative to the point where it passes Homage to just plain Rip-off, and STILL decides to work with the moron twins (Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci) tells me that not only is he a no talent hack of a director, he's a hack of a producer and writer, that he can't recognize that his "friends" are just TRIBBLE. This is why they say "Never work with Family, Friends, Animals or Children if you can avoid it."
If Abrams was smart he would distance himself from the moron twins, however I feel that as bad as they are, Abrams knows he's worse. So in his mind, it's better to have sucky ideas and be able to blame someone else vs, having truly TRIBBLE ideas and having no one to blame.
Why do you think that Abrams is trying to attach himself to the two biggest scifi franchises ever like a Lamprey, because if you look, every attempt to make something "original" has always been a rip off of something else Cloverfield = Godzilla, Super8 = Every Spielberg movie ever made. so he realizes, he can't be original, so leech off of already established franchises. But he can't even do that well.
So if he can't be original, and can't at least be entertainingly derivative, what use is he?
As far as into darkness is concerned, it was better slightly then the first movie. At the very least he limited the physics canon breaking to about 2 times, and I ignored the historical canon breakages because I kept telling myself, this is an alternate universe, so it doesn't matter.
So what we have left to critique is the fact that Abrams now contradicts himself, his whole reason, his BIG explanation as to why he changed the time line was to create a new timeline in which to create new stories and not be limited to what has already been established, a reboot.
Yet, what is the very first thing he does out the gate of that reboot???? He rehashes previous movies, and blatantly rips them off, not 'homages' because that requires subtlety.
If you want to understand what a properly executed homage looks like, please look at the works of Quentin Tarantino, who love em or hate em, at least has mastered the art of the homage. Homage is a subtle thing, in fact in some cases so subtle you might not see them the first time seeing the movie, thats the point
Abrams has all the subtlety of a Urinary Tract Infection. Which at least the tract infection can be gotten rid of with enough antibiotics. When abrams does an "homage" it's so in your face, and many cases line for line, shot for shot copies, that's not homage that's theft, that's ripping off.
So long story short, what is "Into Darkness" and what should you expect. First, the Standard Abramsian fare of lens flash and super saturated color from the first film, the dialogue was a bit better, Abrams at least managed to provide the classic Startrek "Elevator talk" scenes, which allowed for breaks in the scene pieces. The plot is essentially Space Seed, with a several bits of Wrath of Kahn dusted in for good measure, a few blatant historical inaccuracies to make it seem like Abrams has been paying attention to the franchise as a whole, shake it up, mix and serve over ice.
when your not paying attention to the plot, which don't worry your not missing anything, you will get a couple of kicks out of the 'references' to other works, which when it comes to blatantly passing the artistic buck in terms of writing, Abrams has in spades. There are numerous references and easter eggs peppered through out this film, which that will be part of the fun, since a good story certainly won't be in your focus by about the 40 minute mark.
So don't go in expecting something original and new, and mindblowing, you not watching the right director for that, realize that. But if your looking for something with a semi coherent plot, and lots of blowing stuff up with LAZORS, and 'references' out the butt then you got the right movie jack.
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I honestly don't believe you've seen the new movie...
You strike me more as some internet anon that just likes to spew hate
believe what you may, but I saw the movie earlier this afternoon, and while yes, it is better then the first, more trek in it's writing it's still far off from what good trek writing is.
at least they had the fare sense of encountering the trek writers conundrum head on, you'll know it when you see it. And kept the Trek Canon Physics breaking to a minimum. I said a minimum, they still say a couple of nonsensical things, but at least it's only about 2 times they do it.
BTW, You can't be an anon when you identify yourself, I don't need to be anon, I stand by what I say.
-AE
I'm getting really tired of people who claim to be 'true trekkies' start bashing anything new. It reinforces the stereotype that Trekkies are unpleasing uber-nerds that complain about the littlest things and then forget that their precious bible of old shows and movies weren't exactly perfect either.
You people who complain that Hollywood is vapid or shallow or claim that Abrams was a talentless hack...well, that's your opinion and I respect that. But while you sit in your corners dreaming up about the good ol' days which probably didn't exist, the new Star Trek films has brought in new blood to the franchise and you know what? It's good. It's reimagined, it's fun, it's extravagant, and it's still reasonably faithful to the past. Abrams did what Hollywood sent him out to do: bring Star Trek back to the mainstream.
I've known people who wouldn't dare touch Star Trek with a ten foot pole before actually become interested. They've even gone back to purchase the old movies and watch the shows. All because the reboot was an easy introduction into the Star Trek universe.
So I'm going to kick back and rewatch Into Darkness again with my newly converted friends because it's awesome. Simply awesome. And haters? Well, they're always gonna hate!
Maybe with the destruction of one of their fleets by the Narada forced them to over-mine Praxis. Also with the destruction of Vulcan they would see it as the perfect time to invade the Federation which would also encourage them over-mine when gearing up for war.
I think Praxis being destroyed so early would only hasten their desire for expansion. Section 31 knew this, hence Marcus being so convinced that war is coming.
In your/Vulcan words, fascinating. I would've thought that Klingon's wouldn't be a-OK wearing masks, but I'm not a Klingon expert...
Well first off, Hollywood IS vapid and shallow, that's a fact, try visiting there once and you will see what I mean, ask anyone who lives in CA, Hollywood is....a different kind of animal, let's just say that.
Abrams IS a talentless hack, the man entire movie repertoire is completely derivative. I don't understand why people defend this man, if this was ANY other director, ANY OTHER person, the same people who defend him would be critical of that person.
You call me a hater, fine, but a least I'm not a hypocrite. Trekkies don't hate new things, they don't even hate Abrams because he tried to introduce a new thing, they are angry that a TRIBBLE director and his TRIBBLE writers, who the only reason they get work is because they follow Abrams around, it's because those people were allowed to work on something like star trek, and now star wars.
If trekkies would of heard that say Jon Favreau or Joss Whedon were working on Star Trek, there wouldn't of been a problem, no 'Hate' as your call it, because those guys know their stuff and have actual talent.
Let me put it this way, look at how Abrams scored the Star Wars directorship, Disney went through NINE that's 9, directors who said No BEFORE they even got to Abrams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sequel_trilogy#Episode_VII
That means Disney went through 9 different directors, even Guillermo del Toro for christ sake, and THEN contacted abrams, I mean if they doesn't tell you they were scraping the bottom of the barrel I don't know what to tell you.
But hey, don't want to believe me, think it's just "trekkie rage", ok, fine. And when they mess up star wars, I'm sure the subsequent rage from Star Wars fans will also be just "geek rage".
Because apparently standards have gone out the window and having standards just means your what?
"your just closed minded"
a "hater"
"you just don't get it."
I absolutely LOVE the last one, because it's as if they are saying that abrams work is akin to Plato's Dialogues or Socrates' invention of the scientific method. As if it's some deep, thought provoking provoking work when anyone with a brain and at least some 1st year film school knowledge can see that Abrams is more transparent then Wonder Woman's Jet.
and if your detecting anger in my and any other "haters" posts, it's because the anger comes from the fact that Abrams is in a position that he does not deserve, and that there are others, MANY others who deserve the recognition and opportunity to shine brighter then Abrams ever could. People who have talent that is wasted because they refuse to fit into Hollywood's box of pop culture and TRIBBLE.
Why do you think the most popular form of television show is "Reality TV", which reenforce the stereotypes that men are to be these stupid cave men and women are vapid, insecure, vacuous TRIBBLE, and that these qualities are desirable in people today. Going beyond just Trek, we don't have though provoking TV and Movies anymore. People by and large don't THINK Critically for themselves.
And people with talent, who do have thought provoking ideas are left by the wayside, while those who have no talent but are simply well connected have all the power, not by virtue of their ability but by the people they know. And THAT's why people are pissed that Abrams has been helming this thing.
Because there are many other directors who would and could do a better job. even just from a sheer pride in their work aspect.
And this sentiment is apparently hitting hollywood, because one of the reasons you see things like Ender's Game finally being made into a movie, or Neil Blomkamp's new entry Elisium, is because that is what people want, they want smart as well as action.
And it's getting there, better then it was a few years ago. But basically if the trend continues, and the bar is set higher and higher, Abrams and those like him will be out of a job.
And to be honest the idea makes me happy, that people are having standards again, and that there is only so much that people will put up with.
-AE
I have to agree whole heartedly here. With the infinite story lines that could have been created I am disappointed that everyone involved with the franchise is recycling story lines. It defeated the point of the first movie. Don't get me wrong, I liked both movies but admittedly the sequel just mashed up too many of the original TOS movies into one for my liking.
But this trend isn't new. Hollywood seems to be experiencing writers block in general. The majority of films that have been coming out have either been remakes or rein-visioning traditional story lines. Very little new and innovative material has come out with only a handful of exceptions imho.
This is actually very true! I see it first hand, whereby my students have difficulty thinking outside the box, let alone reading an article or chapter and being able to discuss it critically.
No No no, Praxis was their main energy production facility, without it they can not maintain the Imperial Warmachine.
Without it they would be NO war, they wouldn't be able to maintain it. Also depending on if you consider the books canon, Praxis destruction was also the failure of the Klingons attempt to (re)create their own Genesis Device.
Basically, If they WAS Praxis, again we are assuming it is, Admiral Marcus' concerns are not valid, for without energy no war machine.
As I mentioned in another thread, I think of JJ-trek as the equivalent of Marvel's Ultimate comics line - which basically recycles existing characters and storylines, but updates the characters for contemporary audiences and raises the stakes on the stories. That is pretty much a nutshell description of Star Trek Into Darkness. JJ seems to be treating TOS as though it were a comic book property rather than a TV series.
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This isn't some disturbing new trend. This has been the norm since the invention of the motion picture. In the 50s, for every "Maltese Falcon" you had a hundred cheap ripoffs. For every great sci-fi adventure, you had a hundred "It Came From Out Space" style ripoffs.
The same was true of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. For every great zombie film, you have a hundred horrible zombie films. For every great vampire film, you have a hundred horrible vampire films. There isn't some downturn in film quality. What it's like now is what it has always been like.
And (again, in my opinion) I think you might not be giving popcorn flicks enough credit. I loved Schindler's List, but I also loved all the Hammer films from the 70s. Good, simple fun has value in movies. If all movies had to teach us some sort of lesson or bring light to some social atrocity, I think I'd stop watching movies. Sometimes, we just want to munch popcorn and go on a ride.
For me, the new Star Trek movies do a spectacular job of that.
And let's not overstate the greatness of Trek. Yes, Wrath of Khan was a truly great movie. But its themes weren't exactly new or mind-blowing. Wrath of Khan was essentially a reboot of TMP. Its themes were totally derivative of TMP.
Kirk is dealing with getting older and is having a tough time in his role as an administrator, so when a crisis happens and the Enterprise is the only ship in range to deal with it, Kirk uses the crisis to get the Enterprise back. The existing captain gets demoted to first officer, then - in the climax of the film - that first officer dies, leaving Kirk to command the Enterprise.
Which movie am I talking about there, WoK or TMP?
So let's not pretend Abrams is the only director to completely re-use themes from previous Trek movies. Wok did it to TMP. And you know what WoK added to TMP's themes? Action. It added explosions and firefights. Which is precisely what Abrams did.
Bottom line, Abrams turned Star Trek into popcorn flicks. You might not like that, and that's fine. You absolutely have the right to hate it, and anybody who bashes you for hating it is just wrong. But we shouldn't act like there's some inherent evil going on here.
There's a place for popcorn flicks. I personally love them. Whether Trek should be one is up for debate, but it's not indicative of some deep Hollywood downturn. This is how it has always been.
Compare it to history. In the second world war, the German military needed more oil than what it could produce. Most of it was already coming from Russia. With the increased likelyhood of the Americans coming into the war and the inability to invade Britain, it hastened their plans to invade Russia for its oil before a second front could be opened up.
It's a similar situation the Klingons face with the destruction of Praxis. Gorkon was more amicable and open to peace, but imagine if the Klingons in this timeline have a more warmongering chancellor, someone more like General Chang for example. Invasion of the Federation would be seen as the most attractive solution.
You describe it as new hollywood. Which means that your point can easily be ignored. Not much has changed about the business of getting motion pictures made throughout its history.
This is these last two Trek films are the first to acknowledge Trek novel and comics, in fact this last film acknowledges two off-screen references that are in fact from the tie-in video game and the tie-in comics. Here's the biggest nod to fans, Uhura's first name.
The script writers are very much Trek fans and the director doesn't have to be, but at least he acknowledges the fandom. Haters tend to overlook a lot of things in their hatred pursuit of a target. Yes, Praxis was messed up, what does that have to do with the story? The yelling of Khan by Spock felt a little cring-worthy, but given the story context and what Spock went through up to that point, very appropriate.
I enjoyed the movie despite the fact that I had reservations about spoilers of TWOK remakes, but it wasn't a TWOK remake, it had elements of that movie, just like it had elements of Space Seed, and to me it felt very much like the novel, Dreadnought, which I enjoyed immensely, its the only Diane Carey book that I liked.
I watched the movie just five days from watching Iron Man 3 and its nice twist, so I liked that aspect of it. Overall, I enjoyed the movie and enjoyed the new additions to the Trek universe.
So basically it was more forgettable than the 2009 film.
I didn't think that was possible.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Those Klingon's could have been from some sort of force/order that wear helmets for some unknown reason; such as a group that actively puts the honor of the Empire above their own by making it hard to distinguish one from another or some sort.
It could be worse. Robotech fans waited for 20 years to get new stories only to get a half-baked movie and a (so far) 7 year unfulfilled promise for more.
Now that Carl Macek is dead, I doubt Robotech will be better than what we have. No point in waiting for disappointment.
Looked like the Mayflower type from the last film.
Not all Klingons were affected by the virus.
I guessed it became the Borg testing facility for the Empire, the Klingons took apart the Nerarda in the deleted scenes in the last film, and the D-4's looked rather enhanced, so maybe Praxis blew up early due to experiments on Borg stuff, a nice parallel with Hobus.
I also noticed that Spocks volcano suit was very similar to Kirks skydiving one from Generations.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The Abrams Films are great... but they are such bad Trek that it can't logically be Canon, theres just so many holes in the stories and Abrams just threw Trek-Law out the window.
Trek-Law and the better-ment of mankind was the back bone of Star Trek, I have yet to see that in Abrams rubbish.
Episode Four - Head Of A Needle Episode Five: The Duality of Men Episode Six - Redemption Earned
Episode Seven - Shattered Universe Episode Eight - The Gepetto Condition Episode Nine - One Room, Two Officers
Episode Ten - Beyond The Farthest Star Episode Eleven - It's OK, It Won't Hurt Episode Twelve - A Protracted Officer
Episode Thirteen - Somewhen Episode Fourteen - The Boy Who Lived Episode Fifthteen - Empathy
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
You're actually ignoring Kirk's message in the end of the film? Also, you're ignoring the fact that this film actually tackled the militarist approach of section 31 and presented it as an antithesis of what starfleet was supposed to be. which was what scotty said.
It's only as deep as you permit it to be. if someone has pride and pre-conceived notions of hate, then it'll be easy to say it's shallow
Actually Robotech still lives, providing you go back to the Original Macross series it was based off. You will find at least 4 more series, plus movies and OVAs.
Perhaps. But to me, they were wearing helmets to hide their dishonor. You know, this was the time they were recovering from the Retrovirus from Enterprise, that was prevalent in TOS. That or their different apperance is that they found a cure decades earlier.
This is the part I have no idea what Abrams was doing. The D4 was shown on Enterprise as the precursor to the D7. Yet in the JJverse, they are suddenly like Mini BoPs.