I never said they do not. I said, it is questionable if they should reach so high turn rate numbers. And if the dmg bonus for 45 degree arc weapons reflects this. it was adjusted once already with the cooldown changes made by Snix. I'm not the judge on this, I'm just saying it's not right when one console has 4x more the benefit for one ship class than enother.
Oh and please stop with that premade preaching. It's true you are making decent acolyte for Jorf's premade religion, and while amusing to read it few times, it gets rather repeatitve after a while.
Obviously we can agree that we disagree about this subject, and I would let it at this.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Actually not. I do not see the point why escorts should reach so high turn rates using RCS consoles. I'm not sure the original intention was that they can stay 100% on their target with 45 degree weapons (it makes the whole dmg bonus for narrow arc weapons pointless). RCS with flat bonus are completely fine. Consoles should be equally strong for all ships. But I understand it's a hot topic and there probably never will be a consensus :P
We don't need a consensus. They're wrong and we're right.
If they want to fly fighters, then let them fly fighters. Inertial Dampeners wouldn't prevent the crew from becoming meat pancakes with the turn they're currently capable of...meh.
They found that % bonuses did not work with the Subterfuge Trait for BOFFs...odds are they're finally realizing that it doesn't work for Turn either.
Almost every balancing "disadvantage" given for all of the "advantages" is no longer a balancing "disadvantage"...tada, the state of things.
They've got the basis for some decent ships here, an opportunity to set things right for a new tomorrow and the future of STO.
60s recharge after the use of one of these skills... is beyond painful.
As I see it you have 2 choices in the higher range of ships.
1) never use any of the singularity powers... cause loosing the power bonus for 60s is dumb and completely not worth it.
2) if you do choose to use a skill... its going to be the heal and nothing else ever... cause again going 60s with no power is dumb.
For a cost of 40 power this is a terrible mechanic.
My suggestion would be this.
1) Keep the -40 power... However
2) make it worth the trade...
I would do it this way myself.
Remove the singularity power lockout... if you burn it you start to rebuild it right away. This will remove the thinking of I can't burn my 5 levels cause I am going to loose to much power.
I would then add cool downs to the individual skills.... 60s each.
This will mean in the later ships with muliple skills they will in fact come into play... with out being spammed. It will also be much much easier to tune each skill for balance.... if one seems to powerful to be on a 60s... increase the cool down on it.
Frankly this mechanic is so terrible that if it stays as it is right now... if we had the option to slot a regular core I would.
the turning console change sounds great, but the D'deridex, and ALL otehr cruiser like ships still need the turning floor raised, you still have to give up several console slots to get the ship to turn as well as a negvar would with none, for example.
i went into detail what a proper fix for base turn rates would be, you REALLY should care that out as well.
looking forward to seeing what the adjusted staion setup is, something like the ody or ambassador has might make sense. you know, since it turns like a carrier, maybe it should have a carrier like 2 LTC stations. it doesn't even have hangers yet moves like a carrier, that sounds more then fair
Hrmm, I've found the three abilities available so far to have their uses depending on the situation. I've used all three in different scenarios - and - I've even forgone using them when they were not called for at the time.
If there's a bunch of small ships - them bam - damage!
If I'm getting hammered, but not too hammered - then bam - heal!
If I think I'm going to get too hammered - then bam - shadows!
If none of that - then bam - power!
It's oddly more in line with how I would have thought so many more of the other powers would work - it's definitely got a more Star Trek feel to it...rather than the FPS/TPS shooter feel that so much of the game does.
I have to think, I have to weight my options, I have to deal with that opportunity cost of my choice...it's not just a case of having my cake and eating it (while having pie at the same time which is what STO generally gives us).
the turning console change sounds great, but the D'deridex, and ALL otehr cruiser like ships still need the turning floor raised, you still have to give up several console slots to get the ship to turn as well as a negvar would with none, for example.
i went into detail what a proper fix for base turn rates would be, you REALLY should care that out as well.
looking forward to seeing what the adjusted staion setup is, something like the ody or ambassador has might make sense. you know, since it turns like a carrier, maybe it should have a carrier like 2 LTC stations. it doesn't even have hangers yet moves like a carrier, that sounds more then fair
There is 2 simple fixes for turn rate issues in this game.
1) change the RCS to be a flat base turn rate Bump... White mk xii being 3.0... purple being something like 3.8. (or some number they can make logical for lower - higher level gear)
2) bump all cruisers 3 points on base (including the battle cruisers) bump all sci 1-2 points... and bump all escorts/warbirds/bops 1 point minus the bug... which can stay as it is.
Hrmm, I've found the three abilities available so far to have their uses depending on the situation. I've used all three in different scenarios - and - I've even forgone using them when they were not called for at the time.
If there's a bunch of small ships - them bam - damage!
If I'm getting hammered, but not too hammered - then bam - heal!
If I think I'm going to get too hammered - then bam - shadows!
If none of that - then bam - power!
It's oddly more in line with how I would have thought so many more of the other powers would work - it's definitely got a more Star Trek feel to it...rather than the FPS/TPS shooter feel that so much of the game does.
I have to think, I have to weight my options, I have to deal with that opportunity cost of my choice...it's not just a case of having my cake and eating it (while having pie at the same time which is what STO generally gives us).
Perhaps your right there... I am normaly a fan of having options.
As far as pvp goes anyway though... I would have to say using anything other then the heal seems very unwise.
Perhaps a better solution would be something like
30s Cool down on Singularity build.
with a
60s cool down on each skill... so they can't be chained...
Still seems to me that with the higher end cores being locked out of having any charge at all for 60s... seems hardly worth using any of the skills.
Maybe they should add new skill for romulan captains, that improves the cooldown of singularity power. But Then again I could imagine something more special for all factions in skill trees.
Something like Starfleet Training, Klingon academy training, Romulan training, that would give unique bonuses for faction related skills.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Maybe they should add new skill for romulan captains, that improves the cooldown of singularity power. But Then again I could imagine something more special for all factions in skill trees.
Something like Starfleet Training, Klingon academy training, Romulan training, that would give unique bonuses for faction related skills.
Something like that can make sense.
I admit I havn't gotten all that far on tirbble at this point... I am level 12 or so now with the second warbird... but watching my shield power go from 23 to 15 for 60s... seems just plain bad. It makes no difference at this level. However later in the game if unless these skills are super OP I can't understand why I would want to gimp my ship for 60s at a time. That is the issue I see... cool powers that no one ever uses is sort of silly. Or get slaughtered 10s after the power runs out. With perhaps the exception of the shield heal skill.
There is 2 simple fixes for turn rate issues in this game.
1) change the RCS to be a flat base turn rate Bump... White mk xii being 3.0... purple being something like 3.8. (or some number they can make logical for lower - higher level gear)
2) bump all cruisers 3 points on base (including the battle cruisers) bump all sci 1-2 points... and bump all escorts/warbirds/bops 1 point minus the bug... which can stay as it is.
I would rather bumb fed cruisers by 2, bumb battlecruisers by 1, leave sci ships, reduce escorts by 1, bug by 2
Perhaps your right there... I am normaly a fan of having options.
As far as pvp goes anyway though... I would have to say using anything other then the heal seems very unwise.
Perhaps a better solution would be something like
30s Cool down on Singularity build.
with a
60s cool down on each skill... so they can't be chained...
Still seems to me that with the higher end cores being locked out of having any charge at all for 60s... seems hardly worth using any of the skills.
The PvP angle is kind of rough - not actually being able to test it. Sure, my gal's level 30 - I've tooled around the universe fighting things here and there...but no PvP with her.
I'm curious what the Warp Shadows do in PvP. Does it break target? It appears to break target in PvE. The combination of the teleport and bonus stealth - it could be a nifty escape mechanic in PvP.
You're uncloaked - whacking on somebody - somebody decloaks to whack on you - bam, Warp Shadows. They lose target - they have to find you again - while you've got the chance to cloak again and move in on them.
The PvP angle is kind of rough - not actually being able to test it. Sure, my gal's level 30 - I've tooled around the universe fighting things here and there...but no PvP with her.
I'm curious what the Warp Shadows do in PvP. Does it break target? It appears to break target in PvE. The combination of the teleport and bonus stealth - it could be a nifty escape mechanic in PvP.
You're uncloaked - whacking on somebody - somebody decloaks to whack on you - bam, Warp Shadows. They lose target - they have to find you again - while you've got the chance to cloak again and move in on them.
Really wish they'd let Romulans in Ker'rat...meh.
Warp Shadow ? Is that the stuff that creates several of your copies around ? I did a duel with one mogai on tribble and i just ignored the copies and shot on the player ships. It reminds me of that fed console from rhode island. You can always tell what is a npc spawn because of the name.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I would rather bumb fed cruisers by 2, bumb battlecruisers by 1, leave sci ships, reduce escorts by 1, bug by 2
Reducing anyone makes people annoyed. Seriously though you can't reduce escorts... there turn isn't the problem. Frankly all the escorts are just fine exactly as they are... The bug we can debate which is why I suggested we simply exclude it from the bump every ship would get including all the other escorts. All the escorts minus the bug don't have more turn then they deserve imo.
I would also be annoyed if fed cruisers started turning as well as my battle cruiser with out getting a bump to my battle cruisers specs.
Still ya in general I think most people will agree... a flat bump to most ships wouldn't be so bad..
Warp Shadow ? Is that the stuff that creates several of your copies around ? I did a duel with one mogai on tribble and i just ignored the copies and shot on the player ships. It reminds me of that fed console from rhode island. You can always tell what is a npc spawn because of the name.
ya this is my point... all the powers except the heal seem 100% pointless in pvp. I wouldn't trade even 7.5 power for them.
Which gets me thinking a bit....
What about a singularity overload skill... that simply returns 20-30 of the system power the core gives up for 60s. lmao
Warp Shadow ? Is that the stuff that creates several of your copies around ? I did a duel with one mogai on tribble and i just ignored the copies and shot on the player ships. It reminds me of that fed console from rhode island. You can always tell what is a npc spawn because of the name.
Hrmm, that's something they may want to address then...
edit: Though, how they would address that - could become very complicated.
What about a singularity overload skill... that simply returns 20-30 of the system power the core gives up for 60s. lmao
Well we obviously didn't see all the cores variants. I could image a core variant that simply turns off the special powers and gives you regular power back. for people not interested in the feature.
But it got me thinking.
I would love to see a federation warp core feature, that would replace the emergency power stuff :P
Also the romulan core tech could be used for stuff like phaser capacitor from starfleet command. So all in all, it's good they have it for the future. Imagine it used for phaser beam array or something. Would be great. Charge up and boom.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Thank you all for the feedback. We're still reading this thread and the others on the forum.
A few quick notes:
-We have some changes coming to the Singularity mechanic soon. After testing that more, we'll evaluate if the power level penalties feel to harsh. Note that there are some higher level abilities to cut cooldowns and such that might make the Singularity feel more effective, but we're aware that it needs to feel worthwhile at low levels when only the Plasma Shockwave is available.
-We've discussed renaming the Plasma Shockwave, but we're probably going to stick with the name and just make some tooltip updates to Plasma Consoles, Particle Generators skill, and the Shockwave itself to make it clearer how these abilities interact.
-For those of you who are concerned with the D'deridex Retrofit's bridge officers seating and such, this is another reminder that all the higher level stuff is unfinished. Our test build already has different seating.
-On the subject of the turn rate for the D'deridex, it will most likely retain a 5.5 base turn rate to keep it slower than the Galaxy. That being said, I recently made a change to RCS Consoles that is currently in internal testing. This change significantly improves the benefit that slower ships like the D'deridex and the Galaxy Retrofit receive from using these consoles. (Roughly doubling the benefit in the case of the D'deridex, in our current tests.) Some players do enjoy flying a slow, tanky ship - but this should allow you to customize for higher turn rates if you choose to. You're still not going to be flying like an escort in a gigantic ship like that, but there will be more flexibility.
Moreover, please keep in mind that Battle Cloak provides a significant turn rate boost, Singularity Jump can provide added mobility, and that the D'ridthau's Molecular Phase Inverter console can also be used to increase your turn rate (in addition to the console's other functions).
These aren't the only changes we're making based on feedback, just some ones I've already had a chance to address personally and/or discuss with the rest of the team.
R-really? Ch-changes RCS consoles? They'll...be more useful on cruisers?
That...that is probably one of the greatest dev posts I've ever read.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Thank you all for the feedback. We're still reading this thread and the others on the forum.
A few quick notes:
-We have some changes coming to the Singularity mechanic soon. After testing that more, we'll evaluate if the power level penalties feel to harsh. Note that there are some higher level abilities to cut cooldowns and such that might make the Singularity feel more effective, but we're aware that it needs to feel worthwhile at low levels when only the Plasma Shockwave is available.
-We've discussed renaming the Plasma Shockwave, but we're probably going to stick with the name and just make some tooltip updates to Plasma Consoles, Particle Generators skill, and the Shockwave itself to make it clearer how these abilities interact.
-For those of you who are concerned with the D'deridex Retrofit's bridge officers seating and such, this is another reminder that all the higher level stuff is unfinished. Our test build already has different seating.
-On the subject of the turn rate for the D'deridex, it will most likely retain a 5.5 base turn rate to keep it slower than the Galaxy. That being said, I recently made a change to RCS Consoles that is currently in internal testing. This change significantly improves the benefit that slower ships like the D'deridex and the Galaxy Retrofit receive from using these consoles. (Roughly doubling the benefit in the case of the D'deridex, in our current tests.) Some players do enjoy flying a slow, tanky ship - but this should allow you to customize for higher turn rates if you choose to. You're still not going to be flying like an escort in a gigantic ship like that, but there will be more flexibility.
Moreover, please keep in mind that Battle Cloak provides a significant turn rate boost, Singularity Jump can provide added mobility, and that the D'ridthau's Molecular Phase Inverter console can also be used to increase your turn rate (in addition to the console's other functions).
These aren't the only changes we're making based on feedback, just some ones I've already had a chance to address personally and/or discuss with the rest of the team.
Yes! More turn rate! You just made my day, Archon!
(I wonder if anybody got the SWRC reference... )
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Indeed. The Galaxy has the option of the saucer separate at least which turns it into a near escort, but giving RCS console a boost is a very welcome change. As I found out some time ago, giving a flat percentage of a turn rate is almost useless to a cruiser. 10% of 5 is a lot worse than 10% of 25, so escorts will benefit far more from one. I'll have to ditch a resistance console on my fleet Galaxy to fit an RCS, but I will gladly do it. You have just made this prospective D'Deridex pilot very happy.
Regarding the singularity, I was frustrated with them initially, but receiving the second singularity in the third mission clued my into the fact that later versions would have better cooldowns and such, which made sense. You of, course are, flying the crappier version in the low end of the game, so later versions will solve all the frustrations of the first one. So I can put my stamp of approval on leaving singularities the way they are.
I also think the low power of the singularities will be be alleviated somewhat by the power skills. I always 6 those anyway so its not a big deal. And frankly its not a huge reduction for such a unique system.
Some connets on various quotes from this thread.
I'm curious what the Warp Shadows do in PvP. Does it break target?
Yep, it causes the player to fade out and in so you stop shooting him while he can flack away happily at you. Seriously annoying. Or actually I'm thinking of a Doff ability.
I would love to see a federation warp core feature, that would replace the emergency power stuff
The only thing a fed warp core can do is Breach
Reducing anyone makes people annoyed. Seriously though you can't reduce escorts...
Dude, if you had suffered though the 3 years of constant nerfing Sci's and to a slightly lesser extent engis have had to suffer through because of escort players crying their eyes out at actually getting hurt, "annoyed" wouldn't even come close to describing your mood. How come everyone else can be reduced and screwed over but your most holy escorts can't?
I'm sorry that a reduction in 2 turn rate has you keeling over with a heart attack, but this would be pretty much the first nerf that Escorts have suffered ever in Escorts online and would not really hurt them at all. I;m sorry that the thought of actually having to work in maneuvering to avoid facing 6 beams instead of 3 has you sweating in self righteous indignation. But then I'll be here playing the actual game and avoiding the pointlessness of PVP with with sobbing PVPers like 90% of the playerbase.
Seriously, nothing ruins a game like listening to PVPers, ans all pvpers care about cookie cutter DPS and HP builds, not actual fun. And sorry about being snarky, but 3 years of sci nerfs yo.
Okay, I tried reading through the whole thread before posting and stopped half-way. I got one Romulan character into a Mogai, the other is still in the Dhelan. So....
1) It would be awesome if we'd get to test the C-Store ships, their new consoles, the interactions with the singularity mechanic etc.
2) Since I could not test it myself and the model doesn't have those red glowing hardpoints on the hull in the vendor window I had to fly in front of them to be sure but it really seems like the dual beam banks/heavy cannons hard points of the T'varo light warbird are at the tips of the nacelles. It would IMHO look a lot better if they were on the saucer like on the T'liss. And I'd like to know where those for the dual cannons are. (d'oh, I just realized that you have a picture of one firing a dual beam bank in the latest devblog http://images-cdn.perfectworld.com/www/23/05/2305681fc63463185665f7c75270b8ac1366395340.jpg )
3) At the moment I'm unsure about the singularity core. Healing yourself with 15 Aux is painful, you are more susceptible to energy drain attacks, you do less damage, have less shields etc. With T2 you at least get a singularity fueled shield heal, and you have a battlecloak to quickly disengage... On the other hand this low levels. I know how much you can push power levels with skills and consoles later on, so maybe it won't be as bad.... However for my play style it would be best if I could replace the singularity with a standard warp core (shouldn't be completely alien to the Romulans, they got them with the D7 from the Klingons). I tend to save my high cooldown abilities for when I need them, unfortunately that happens rarely in STO and the singularity level drops in combat pauses...
4) D7 with Romulan TOS skin. A must-be.:D
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Ok so having flown the Warbirds up to the Mogai mostly seem good, the tac/sci combo they have going is an interesting change. That being said the Sinuglarity Core whilst useful isn't useful enough to justify the current power debuff, the 1 minute cooldown really hurts given that its wait 1 minute then start to charge again (the system is also tracking ability cooldowns which are shorter than the minute which strikes me as added hassle for no return.), I'd say drop the core cooldown to 20-30 seconds and put the ability cooldowns on 45-60 seconds, or drop the ability cooldowns altogether and place the core on a 30-45second cooldown.
I'm looking at something of a jaring situation coming up when you move from a Mogai to a D'deridex you go from a high mobility tac/sci setup into a slow cruiser style setup the sudden change in flight style is going to annoy people, honestly not sure how to handle it, shifting to a double science BOFF layout would keep it in line with the previous warbirds and I'd be more inclined to try split the warbirds into two lines a cruiser/sci line and the escort/sci line.
Tierage as follows Both lines
Tier 1 T'liss,
Tier 2 Romulan Scout Ship
Tier 3 Tac/Sci Dhelan, Eng/Sci D7 with singularity core
Tier 4 Tac/Sci Mogai, Eng/Sci D'Deridex
Not sure what to do with tier 5 without having to design another ship but with the c-store ships theres options for captains.
Thank you all for the feedback. We're still reading this thread and the others on the forum.
-We have some changes coming to the Singularity mechanic soon. After testing that more, we'll evaluate if the power level penalties feel to harsh. Note that there are some higher level abilities to cut cooldowns and such that might make the Singularity feel more effective, but we're aware that it needs to feel worthwhile at low levels when only the Plasma Shockwave is available.
My concern with this is that making the singularity core "useful" enough to overcome its disadvantages should not cost anything. The singularity core is not an advantage that needs a counter, it already comes with a counter at least in its current form that we have access to. Basically the Core mechanics need to be equal-but-different right out of the box, otherwise people flying warbirds are being punished; either because the Core isn't useful, or because to make it useful requires giving up other traits/skills that non-warbird players will take.
please keep in mind that Battle Cloak provides a significant turn rate boost, Singularity Jump can provide added mobility, and that the D'ridthau's Molecular Phase Inverter console can also be used to increase your turn rate (in addition to the console's other functions).
I have not seen this console. Maybe it's amazing. And you're already working on singularity mechanics so I guess wait and see on that one. But the problem with relying on Battle Cloak (which I always thought was +10%, not +10, so thanks) is that in order to use it your shields must be taken down. Which in PVP is an invitation for the guy riding your six to use every damage buff he has in those seconds before you turn invisible, and in PVE is an invitation for the half dozen ships shooting at you to all use their torpedoes. Granted big ships with more hitpoints and more armor are more likely to survive this than Klingon BOPs are, but still: the vast majority of damage mitigation comes from shields, not hull. Because of this, I don't really see "cloak turning" as being the preferred strategy over Evasive, Pattern Omega, Aux2Dampener, engine batteries, deuterium, etc.
What momaw said, plus if you don't get out of their sight soon, you'll be a sitting duck.
I've caught overconfident BoP captains on several occasions, trying to escape me by cloaking when they could probably defeat me if they don't cloak. Probably.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
My concern with this is that making the singularity core "useful" enough to overcome its disadvantages should not cost anything.
I have to disagree, in that the core is NOT useless off the bat; what Miranda comes with a potent shield-bypassing AoE DoT? From the section you highlighted, you seem to be suggesting that it's useless until you "pay" something (in the sense of consoles, cores, DOffs, BOff abilities, etc) to make it useful, and that's simply not the case. The "costs" we WILL be paying will be a tradeoff in improvements; do I make my core ability more potent, or do I reduce the cooldown, or speed up the charge time, etc.. But there's nothing more satisfying than setting off my Plasma Shockwave in the middle of a group of enemies and watching the core collapses pile up.
I think my biggest problem with the T'Liss was the fact that, like EVERY existing T1 ship....they all suck, compared to the T5 powerhouses I'm used to. And that's going to be my problem with ANY new T1 ship, I bet the vets who roll new Klingons will also find their T1 starting ship (whatever it is with the new 1-20 Klingon progression) to be horribly slow and underpowered compared to what they're used to.
I think we're not given a lot of early opportunities to use the shockwave to its best advantages, but man, if I ever need to roll another non-Rom character, I'd wager that there'll be plenty of times when I'm chugging around in my Miranda that the thought "man, I wish could pull a Plasma Shockwave right here" will cross my mind.
Devs, I take back anything bad I might have said about the T'Liss; it seems balanced as it is, compared in pain to what I remember of going back to a T1 fed ship on a new alt.
(Oh, and a belated note on the Battle Cloak and turn rate, yeah, I checked the numbers and it is indeed +10 and not +10%, meaning it will almost triple the turn rate of the D'Deridex...but 3x almost nothing is still...) :P
-On the subject of the turn rate for the D'deridex, it will most likely retain a 5.5 base turn rate to keep it slower than the Galaxy. That being said, I recently made a change to RCS Consoles that is currently in internal testing. This change significantly improves the benefit that slower ships like the D'deridex and the Galaxy Retrofit receive from using these consoles. (Roughly doubling the benefit in the case of the D'deridex, in our current tests.) Some players do enjoy flying a slow, tanky ship - but this should allow you to customize for higher turn rates if you choose to. You're still not going to be flying like an escort in a gigantic ship like that, but there will be more flexibility.
Will these consoles also benefit more to ships with less than 15 or 15 turnrate? They are quite frustrating escorts and destroyers to fly, especially the Romulan ones. Those things barely turn, even with a high power to engines.
Since this is also the official ship feedback thread, let me just say that I'm not a huge fan of the Dhelan Warbird artwork.
The hull is okay. It's more squat than other Romulan ships, but it has an interesting muscled sort of style. But the wings... no. All the newer Romulan ships are sleek and curvey, and so is the Dhelan except for the broken upper wings which have a razor-sharp 85 degree kink in them.
Ship would look better if there was only one set of wings, basically following the middle of the two we have now: Slope up forming "shoulders" near the main hull, rounded top, then curve down.
Having reached level 24 in 3 different warbirds, my feeling is that the singularity abilities are definitely not worth losing 40 power for. They are too weak/situational to be decisive, and they cannot be used in an opening strike.
In PvP I suspect that warbirds are just not going to be viable with the enormous power penalty.
Personally, I would remove the penalty entirely, OR have it temporarily hit you after using one of the singularity powers.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this: I'm pretty sure it is a bug because the same problem happens on holodeck from time to time.
When I was a independant romulan at levels 1-9, when I warped out my nacelles glowed green (as they should). Now that I've chosen to ally with the federation, more often than not my warp animation has my nacelles glowing blue. This really breaks immersion and looks bad.
(When I said it happens on holodeck I mean occasionally my KDF character in a galor gets the blue nacelle glow too)
I too concur with the thought that the power hit is too steep, ok the Feds and Klingon get warp cores which boast their max power by 5, singularity cores don't have this and nor should they. But 40 less power over all is horrid, either modify the amount of boasted power from the ships, or lower the difference, or just do what others have suggested at max charge it would 50 across the board, but goes back to 0 at the use of a ability gaining 2 power across the board every charge level.
In find it a little odd that the Plasma Shockwave benefits from Particle Generators but the Absorption heal type one doesn't seem to benefit from hull repair or shield emitters.
I imagine it's supposed to be a pseudo miracle worker type power, so it should surely gain from the character specs in the same way.
The charge seems a little long and a little arbitrary. Perhaps limiting the different levels of charge but have it take longer to do so?
The Level 10 Warbird is described as having a high turn rate, but in practice seems to turn very slowly, if it does turn quickly, it doesn't seem right from the model and if it doesn't, why does mine have a turn of ~20 with very little engine power?
Comments
Oh and please stop with that premade preaching. It's true you are making decent acolyte for Jorf's premade religion, and while amusing to read it few times, it gets rather repeatitve after a while.
Obviously we can agree that we disagree about this subject, and I would let it at this.
We don't need a consensus. They're wrong and we're right.
If they want to fly fighters, then let them fly fighters. Inertial Dampeners wouldn't prevent the crew from becoming meat pancakes with the turn they're currently capable of...meh.
They found that % bonuses did not work with the Subterfuge Trait for BOFFs...odds are they're finally realizing that it doesn't work for Turn either.
Almost every balancing "disadvantage" given for all of the "advantages" is no longer a balancing "disadvantage"...tada, the state of things.
They've got the basis for some decent ships here, an opportunity to set things right for a new tomorrow and the future of STO.
Its terrible.
60s recharge after the use of one of these skills... is beyond painful.
As I see it you have 2 choices in the higher range of ships.
1) never use any of the singularity powers... cause loosing the power bonus for 60s is dumb and completely not worth it.
2) if you do choose to use a skill... its going to be the heal and nothing else ever... cause again going 60s with no power is dumb.
For a cost of 40 power this is a terrible mechanic.
My suggestion would be this.
1) Keep the -40 power... However
2) make it worth the trade...
I would do it this way myself.
Remove the singularity power lockout... if you burn it you start to rebuild it right away. This will remove the thinking of I can't burn my 5 levels cause I am going to loose to much power.
I would then add cool downs to the individual skills.... 60s each.
This will mean in the later ships with muliple skills they will in fact come into play... with out being spammed. It will also be much much easier to tune each skill for balance.... if one seems to powerful to be on a 60s... increase the cool down on it.
Frankly this mechanic is so terrible that if it stays as it is right now... if we had the option to slot a regular core I would.
i went into detail what a proper fix for base turn rates would be, you REALLY should care that out as well.
looking forward to seeing what the adjusted staion setup is, something like the ody or ambassador has might make sense. you know, since it turns like a carrier, maybe it should have a carrier like 2 LTC stations. it doesn't even have hangers yet moves like a carrier, that sounds more then fair
If there's a bunch of small ships - them bam - damage!
If I'm getting hammered, but not too hammered - then bam - heal!
If I think I'm going to get too hammered - then bam - shadows!
If none of that - then bam - power!
It's oddly more in line with how I would have thought so many more of the other powers would work - it's definitely got a more Star Trek feel to it...rather than the FPS/TPS shooter feel that so much of the game does.
I have to think, I have to weight my options, I have to deal with that opportunity cost of my choice...it's not just a case of having my cake and eating it (while having pie at the same time which is what STO generally gives us).
There is 2 simple fixes for turn rate issues in this game.
1) change the RCS to be a flat base turn rate Bump... White mk xii being 3.0... purple being something like 3.8. (or some number they can make logical for lower - higher level gear)
2) bump all cruisers 3 points on base (including the battle cruisers) bump all sci 1-2 points... and bump all escorts/warbirds/bops 1 point minus the bug... which can stay as it is.
Perhaps your right there... I am normaly a fan of having options.
As far as pvp goes anyway though... I would have to say using anything other then the heal seems very unwise.
Perhaps a better solution would be something like
30s Cool down on Singularity build.
with a
60s cool down on each skill... so they can't be chained...
Still seems to me that with the higher end cores being locked out of having any charge at all for 60s... seems hardly worth using any of the skills.
Something like Starfleet Training, Klingon academy training, Romulan training, that would give unique bonuses for faction related skills.
Something like that can make sense.
I admit I havn't gotten all that far on tirbble at this point... I am level 12 or so now with the second warbird... but watching my shield power go from 23 to 15 for 60s... seems just plain bad. It makes no difference at this level. However later in the game if unless these skills are super OP I can't understand why I would want to gimp my ship for 60s at a time. That is the issue I see... cool powers that no one ever uses is sort of silly. Or get slaughtered 10s after the power runs out. With perhaps the exception of the shield heal skill.
I would rather bumb fed cruisers by 2, bumb battlecruisers by 1, leave sci ships, reduce escorts by 1, bug by 2
The PvP angle is kind of rough - not actually being able to test it. Sure, my gal's level 30 - I've tooled around the universe fighting things here and there...but no PvP with her.
I'm curious what the Warp Shadows do in PvP. Does it break target? It appears to break target in PvE. The combination of the teleport and bonus stealth - it could be a nifty escape mechanic in PvP.
You're uncloaked - whacking on somebody - somebody decloaks to whack on you - bam, Warp Shadows. They lose target - they have to find you again - while you've got the chance to cloak again and move in on them.
Really wish they'd let Romulans in Ker'rat...meh.
Warp Shadow ? Is that the stuff that creates several of your copies around ? I did a duel with one mogai on tribble and i just ignored the copies and shot on the player ships. It reminds me of that fed console from rhode island. You can always tell what is a npc spawn because of the name.
Reducing anyone makes people annoyed. Seriously though you can't reduce escorts... there turn isn't the problem. Frankly all the escorts are just fine exactly as they are... The bug we can debate which is why I suggested we simply exclude it from the bump every ship would get including all the other escorts. All the escorts minus the bug don't have more turn then they deserve imo.
I would also be annoyed if fed cruisers started turning as well as my battle cruiser with out getting a bump to my battle cruisers specs.
Still ya in general I think most people will agree... a flat bump to most ships wouldn't be so bad..
ya this is my point... all the powers except the heal seem 100% pointless in pvp. I wouldn't trade even 7.5 power for them.
Which gets me thinking a bit....
What about a singularity overload skill... that simply returns 20-30 of the system power the core gives up for 60s. lmao
Hrmm, that's something they may want to address then...
edit: Though, how they would address that - could become very complicated.
Well we obviously didn't see all the cores variants. I could image a core variant that simply turns off the special powers and gives you regular power back. for people not interested in the feature.
But it got me thinking.
I would love to see a federation warp core feature, that would replace the emergency power stuff :P
Also the romulan core tech could be used for stuff like phaser capacitor from starfleet command. So all in all, it's good they have it for the future. Imagine it used for phaser beam array or something. Would be great. Charge up and boom.
R-really? Ch-changes RCS consoles? They'll...be more useful on cruisers?
That...that is probably one of the greatest dev posts I've ever read.
I just need to say this....
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes! More turn rate! You just made my day, Archon!
(I wonder if anybody got the SWRC reference...
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Regarding the singularity, I was frustrated with them initially, but receiving the second singularity in the third mission clued my into the fact that later versions would have better cooldowns and such, which made sense. You of, course are, flying the crappier version in the low end of the game, so later versions will solve all the frustrations of the first one. So I can put my stamp of approval on leaving singularities the way they are.
I also think the low power of the singularities will be be alleviated somewhat by the power skills. I always 6 those anyway so its not a big deal. And frankly its not a huge reduction for such a unique system.
Some connets on various quotes from this thread.
Yep, it causes the player to fade out and in so you stop shooting him while he can flack away happily at you. Seriously annoying. Or actually I'm thinking of a Doff ability.
The only thing a fed warp core can do is Breach
Dude, if you had suffered though the 3 years of constant nerfing Sci's and to a slightly lesser extent engis have had to suffer through because of escort players crying their eyes out at actually getting hurt, "annoyed" wouldn't even come close to describing your mood. How come everyone else can be reduced and screwed over but your most holy escorts can't?
I'm sorry that a reduction in 2 turn rate has you keeling over with a heart attack, but this would be pretty much the first nerf that Escorts have suffered ever in Escorts online and would not really hurt them at all. I;m sorry that the thought of actually having to work in maneuvering to avoid facing 6 beams instead of 3 has you sweating in self righteous indignation. But then I'll be here playing the actual game and avoiding the pointlessness of PVP with with sobbing PVPers like 90% of the playerbase.
Seriously, nothing ruins a game like listening to PVPers, ans all pvpers care about cookie cutter DPS and HP builds, not actual fun. And sorry about being snarky, but 3 years of sci nerfs yo.
1) It would be awesome if we'd get to test the C-Store ships, their new consoles, the interactions with the singularity mechanic etc.
2) Since I could not test it myself and the model doesn't have those red glowing hardpoints on the hull in the vendor window I had to fly in front of them to be sure but it really seems like the dual beam banks/heavy cannons hard points of the T'varo light warbird are at the tips of the nacelles. It would IMHO look a lot better if they were on the saucer like on the T'liss. And I'd like to know where those for the dual cannons are. (d'oh, I just realized that you have a picture of one firing a dual beam bank in the latest devblog http://images-cdn.perfectworld.com/www/23/05/2305681fc63463185665f7c75270b8ac1366395340.jpg )
3) At the moment I'm unsure about the singularity core. Healing yourself with 15 Aux is painful, you are more susceptible to energy drain attacks, you do less damage, have less shields etc. With T2 you at least get a singularity fueled shield heal, and you have a battlecloak to quickly disengage... On the other hand this low levels. I know how much you can push power levels with skills and consoles later on, so maybe it won't be as bad.... However for my play style it would be best if I could replace the singularity with a standard warp core (shouldn't be completely alien to the Romulans, they got them with the D7 from the Klingons). I tend to save my high cooldown abilities for when I need them, unfortunately that happens rarely in STO and the singularity level drops in combat pauses...
4) D7 with Romulan TOS skin. A must-be.:D
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
I'm looking at something of a jaring situation coming up when you move from a Mogai to a D'deridex you go from a high mobility tac/sci setup into a slow cruiser style setup the sudden change in flight style is going to annoy people, honestly not sure how to handle it, shifting to a double science BOFF layout would keep it in line with the previous warbirds and I'd be more inclined to try split the warbirds into two lines a cruiser/sci line and the escort/sci line.
Tierage as follows Both lines
Tier 1 T'liss,
Tier 2 Romulan Scout Ship
Tier 3 Tac/Sci Dhelan, Eng/Sci D7 with singularity core
Tier 4 Tac/Sci Mogai, Eng/Sci D'Deridex
Not sure what to do with tier 5 without having to design another ship but with the c-store ships theres options for captains.
My concern with this is that making the singularity core "useful" enough to overcome its disadvantages should not cost anything. The singularity core is not an advantage that needs a counter, it already comes with a counter at least in its current form that we have access to. Basically the Core mechanics need to be equal-but-different right out of the box, otherwise people flying warbirds are being punished; either because the Core isn't useful, or because to make it useful requires giving up other traits/skills that non-warbird players will take.
I have not seen this console. Maybe it's amazing. And you're already working on singularity mechanics so I guess wait and see on that one. But the problem with relying on Battle Cloak (which I always thought was +10%, not +10, so thanks) is that in order to use it your shields must be taken down. Which in PVP is an invitation for the guy riding your six to use every damage buff he has in those seconds before you turn invisible, and in PVE is an invitation for the half dozen ships shooting at you to all use their torpedoes. Granted big ships with more hitpoints and more armor are more likely to survive this than Klingon BOPs are, but still: the vast majority of damage mitigation comes from shields, not hull. Because of this, I don't really see "cloak turning" as being the preferred strategy over Evasive, Pattern Omega, Aux2Dampener, engine batteries, deuterium, etc.
I've caught overconfident BoP captains on several occasions, trying to escape me by cloaking when they could probably defeat me if they don't cloak. Probably.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I have to disagree, in that the core is NOT useless off the bat; what Miranda comes with a potent shield-bypassing AoE DoT? From the section you highlighted, you seem to be suggesting that it's useless until you "pay" something (in the sense of consoles, cores, DOffs, BOff abilities, etc) to make it useful, and that's simply not the case. The "costs" we WILL be paying will be a tradeoff in improvements; do I make my core ability more potent, or do I reduce the cooldown, or speed up the charge time, etc.. But there's nothing more satisfying than setting off my Plasma Shockwave in the middle of a group of enemies and watching the core collapses pile up.
I think my biggest problem with the T'Liss was the fact that, like EVERY existing T1 ship....they all suck, compared to the T5 powerhouses I'm used to. And that's going to be my problem with ANY new T1 ship, I bet the vets who roll new Klingons will also find their T1 starting ship (whatever it is with the new 1-20 Klingon progression) to be horribly slow and underpowered compared to what they're used to.
I think we're not given a lot of early opportunities to use the shockwave to its best advantages, but man, if I ever need to roll another non-Rom character, I'd wager that there'll be plenty of times when I'm chugging around in my Miranda that the thought "man, I wish could pull a Plasma Shockwave right here" will cross my mind.
Devs, I take back anything bad I might have said about the T'Liss; it seems balanced as it is, compared in pain to what I remember of going back to a T1 fed ship on a new alt.
(Oh, and a belated note on the Battle Cloak and turn rate, yeah, I checked the numbers and it is indeed +10 and not +10%, meaning it will almost triple the turn rate of the D'Deridex...but 3x almost nothing is still...) :P
Will these consoles also benefit more to ships with less than 15 or 15 turnrate? They are quite frustrating escorts and destroyers to fly, especially the Romulan ones. Those things barely turn, even with a high power to engines.
The hull is okay. It's more squat than other Romulan ships, but it has an interesting muscled sort of style. But the wings... no. All the newer Romulan ships are sleek and curvey, and so is the Dhelan except for the broken upper wings which have a razor-sharp 85 degree kink in them.
Ship would look better if there was only one set of wings, basically following the middle of the two we have now: Slope up forming "shoulders" near the main hull, rounded top, then curve down.
In PvP I suspect that warbirds are just not going to be viable with the enormous power penalty.
Personally, I would remove the penalty entirely, OR have it temporarily hit you after using one of the singularity powers.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
When I was a independant romulan at levels 1-9, when I warped out my nacelles glowed green (as they should). Now that I've chosen to ally with the federation, more often than not my warp animation has my nacelles glowing blue. This really breaks immersion and looks bad.
(When I said it happens on holodeck I mean occasionally my KDF character in a galor gets the blue nacelle glow too)
I imagine it's supposed to be a pseudo miracle worker type power, so it should surely gain from the character specs in the same way.
The charge seems a little long and a little arbitrary. Perhaps limiting the different levels of charge but have it take longer to do so?
The Level 10 Warbird is described as having a high turn rate, but in practice seems to turn very slowly, if it does turn quickly, it doesn't seem right from the model and if it doesn't, why does mine have a turn of ~20 with very little engine power?