All abilities should have some down time; you should not be able to run two copies of any power for 100% benefit time... NO other powers in game are able to do this, so I am happy with the EPtS changes.
You are wrong, ATB, ATD and ATS can have 100% up time. and so does BETA
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
But EPTA is now useful, and EPTW gives a much better bonus.
Are you certain the change to EPtW is a buff and not a nerf? I don't think anyone has test data yet, but my guess is that longer duration of the damage bonus won't compensate for the shorter duration of the weapon power bonus.
You know the devs are on the right track, when so many complain about the change. I agree that Emergency Power abilities should be used in, an emergency situation. Not something that is permanently applied.
In most other MMOs, tanks don't have "permanent survivability skills" with 100% uptime. Why should STO be different in this regard?
STO should be vastly different in truth. Adhering to the trinity approach of other MMOs was a critical mistake which led to this situation. The different ship types aren't different for different people's gameplay with variability, so much as shoehorned into a pre-made role that you either accept or abandon ship.
And I'm sure other MMOs balance things so you're not a virtual sitting duck without your buffs active.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The more I think about these changes, the more I think about mothballing the cruiser if they come out. The cruiser needs high power levels constantly for its pressure damage, 10s of EPtW downtime is unacceptable, 10s of EPtS downtime is making my threat control skill a major major liability.
It basically means I can't rely on power anymore, so I need to fly my cruiser like an escort. A really terribly bad escort.. so why would I fly it at all?
It'd make more sense to flip the naming of the powers from Emergency Power to X and Aux to X to be more in line, but it'd be confusing as hell for everyone. Game mechanics need to trump naming conventions.
When you dump EPtS for 10s thats a good 3 plasma torps per enemy you are going to be taking to non reinforced shields in elite STFs, which means that escorts are going to be one hit from boss types, cruisers might survive single enemies. Cruisers in Hive Onslaught with threat control will be deader than dead could be.
AS soon as ppl start using it, ppl who are using stealth to sneak up on you will put effort in stealth. And again for pve it is pointless anyways.
Of course the StealthSight is pointless for PvE currently. Not everything need be useful in every situation though. There should actually be opportunity cost in most situations where you simply can't run around with everything you need for every situation.
Currently, my Snooper is not as effective in FvF as he is FvK. There just aren't that many cloaked ships to have justified 9 in Sensors as well as the various gearing choices made. That's an opportunity cost - a sacrifice for X to be better for Y. And yeah, maybe I did the respec after they announced we'd be getting F-Roms and K-Roms instead of Roms.
Nope, just makes it easier to balance for pvp when ppl figure out some combinations that get op. That way you don?t have to take care of the pvp content when you want to balance pve and the other way round.
Design the PvE content with PvP in mind. Test it. You won't have to make any changes for one without having had to make them for the other. There's no PvE folks complaining about changes they believe are because of PvP and no PvP folks complaining about changes they believe are because of PvE.
But maybe we have a different sight on pvp. Fair pvp equipmentwise, would mean everyone has equal equipment. In pve it doesn?t matter if someone has equipment that is way better then yours, in pvp it does.
It doesn't matter in PvE? Well, I suppose if you just play by yourself or with a group of people that do not care. Generally speaking though, in my experience, it's what makes the PvE crowd that much worse than the PvP crowd - the elitism surrounding gear.
Even STO offers a prime example of this, eh? Consider the ESTF that can be completed in 10 minutes by Group X. How often is there going to be a member of said Group X that is going to send tells to other members of that group complaining...because that particular member feels that it should be done in 5 minutes...and those other members are wasting 5 minutes of that member's life by being there.
I dunno how it is with you, but where is the challenge if you beat someone, cause you have way better equipment? That just means you spend more time in grinding/money, not that you are better. It is kinda like using cheats that are allowed.
If I notice that I've outgeared somebody - I'll usually try to pick up more of them. Yes, I've tanked 4-5 people in a Hegh'ta without TT/EPtS...no Tac/Eng BOFFs at all. Likewise, I've been vaped by a Defiant decloaking while I should have been paying better attention.
It's a MMO. It's not a FPS/TPS. It's not twitch. It's a combination of elements - there are various ways to compensate for shortcomings. That Hegh'ta, I noticed a serious lack of serious Sci on the KDF side as I was pugging about. That often resulted in Fed Cruisers acting a little too haughty for my tastes. Tada, the Sci Hegh'ta w/ 4 Sci BOFFs.
People always talk about the Bug being the best ship...I love fighting them in my Chel. Yep, I love fighting the Tac Bug w/ DHCs/Turrets in my Eng Chel w/ Beams. It's almost guaranteed that I'm going to be outgeared...but I'm not stuck with 45 degree arcs, losing bonus defense while trying to maintain those arcs, having my Captain innate abilities wasted because of the loss of those arcs, etc, etc, etc. At the same time, mind you, somebody in a Time Ship/Temporal Destroyer can destroy me if they're as good as me or better equipped. Again, it's that opportunity cost sort of thing, eh?
When I say that separating PvE and PvP is a bad idea...is because there will never be balance. You'll have two separate games...you'd need to have two completely separate games. And then...well, you'd just have your RPG and your FPS. What would be the point? You might as well go play two games where they're focusing all the resources on what you want to do than waste time where the resources are split between two games...no?
Common warp cores give +5 maximum power to one subsystem. This increases the cap from 125 to 130; it doesn't actually give you any power. Warp cores can have modifiers that increase power to one subsystem based on the power level of another subsystem; for example, [W->S] increases your shield power based on your weapon power. However, people in other threads are reporting that the largest increase in power you can get is around +6. Each unit of shield power grants 0.28% shield resistance. So +6 shield power will give you +1.68% shield resistance; this is rather small.
You keep saying this, but I've not seen you justify it once. Don't just say that the +20 power to each subsystem will increase your shield resistance, speed, turn rate, and healing. What are your numbers exactly?
Elite fleet shield = free and always up 20 (if you're doing it wrong) to 35% innate shield resist. It's like a free EPTS 3 and it's always up.
Let's assume our cruiser has 90 shield power level, that makes roughly +10% base resist. If we add the new warp cores it's even more. Add batteries, the new space trait, a fleet support quatermaster doff... And you have a major heal every 90s if you need it (miracle worker). It's up more frequently than the tac alpha strike abilities. Add armor consoles to make sure your hull is ok with 20 to 45% resists to most energy types.
So we have a major heal available every 1'30, at least 45-50 shield base resistances and you keep complaining that a 10s gap will ruin your game. Lol'd. :P
I'm sorry i don't play with an excel sheet but if you enjoy that kind of stuff feel free to provide more precise figures. I'm sure 2-3% will make a huge difference.
Of course i'm assuming that I'm not using powers like APD, EM, RSP, TSS, HE, Aux to SIF (the second major tanking power, it's almost always up), aux to dampeners, RSF... :rolleyes:
I am sorry, but regardless to the arguments to the contrary, this really is a nerf to the role (that most insist upon) of an Engineer in a Cruiser as a Tank/Healer.
With the changes to EPtS, I think there will be a lot less cross-healing going on. The heals that the Tank/Healer would give to teammates will, more times than naught, be held in reserve for those 10 seconds of downtime.
But with the changes to EPtW, everyone that uses it will see an increase in DPS. More Escort pilots will take it and see an even greater boost thanks to their DHCs. More DPS for the Escorts, will mean more threat generated... meaning more of a need for teammates to heal them. Unfortunately, the Tank/Healer will be too busy healing themselves.
While the above does not promote good teamwork; I believe it will happen.
And now for something constructive:
The more I thought about the changes in duration; the more I came to realize that they seem more similar to Batteries. If these changes are set in stone; how about a compromise?
I have no idea how difficult this would be to code. Starship Electro-Plasma Systems already has an effect on EPtX abilities. What if it would also increase the duration of the EPtX abilities? Currently like Starship Batteries affects the duration of batteries. If fully trained, it could also grant a maximum +10 seconds to duration.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
Those matches are due to cross-healing and top teams going head to head.
I've been in many more arena matches vs. PUG players who didn't have EPTS or TT or Shield Distribution only to watch them pop in mere seconds as if they didn't have any shields on at all.
Now there is a 33% gap in the most basic of all shield resistances.
So basically, for an extremely short period of time, you'll be almost as vulnerable as PUG players. What a shame.
You're very correct with this statement, but wrong with everything you didn't say. From a PvP point of view (that sadly, 99% of cryptic devs don't even know it exists, or at least have no clue how to play it and balance it), you do make super-tanks less tanky, but compare how much an escort is losing versus a cruiser/sci... an escort is also going to have a 10 sec gap between ep2s, which can be compensated by a tss for example. Agree, escort is going to feel less tanky, but timing an attack to an opponent in that 10 sec gap will be all it needs. Think a cruiser would be an escort opponent. At best case scenario, TT will cover some of the gap fro cruiser, but not all of it, since in theory, under heavy fire in pvp you can't afford to hold on your tt till your eps 20 sec effect will end, just to make sure those 10 secs will be covered. Without a tt, even eps3 @125 power will get a face pierced fast... Heck, that?s valid in Elite STFs too. Also, even if you can afford having a TSS, it would be a pain to cycle it with EPS since they don?t use same global cooldown (I am referring to binding them to same key, eps with tss, so you will have an active shield resist all time). So at least this ep2s change is not a good one, it has some good sides but overall is worse than what it is now in the current game.
Regarding zombie cruisers, whoever does that, you know it has no value in pvp? or pve for that reason. Just because you don?t die easy it doesn't mean you have a contribution to your team. Just because you can throw couple heals doesn't make you more useful. Most people will ignore you in pvp, will try to separate you as a healer (tbr works great 99% situations) and in pve you still can?t do any damage, so any other player that does more damage would be more useful.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Atm I hate how you must have epts# up and running 100% or you will explode in the next 3 seconds in high difficulty's or even more so PvP. I would like epts not to be a must absolutely have. And atm it is not because the others suck which they did, but because if you dont you die pitifully.
They won't be fixing that, they've made it worse.
You still need to have EPTS running 100% of the time it's available, the only difference now is that you can't actually do this.
Unfortunately the devs do not test for PvP, it's not really on their general radar outside of the pity that Bort seems to have for the PvP community in this game (and which the vast majority of really, really appreciate).
So nothing has changed. All EPTx abilities have been simultaneously buffed and nerfed at the same time.
Powers that were designed to be continuously cycled, this is unavoidable due to how the shared and global cooldowns function.
Now we have a buff cycle that pushes you towards NOT cycling them and holding them in reserve.
EXCEPT YOU CAN'T hold them in reserve when you have multiple EPTx abilities (Like Cruisers) because of how shared and global cooldowns work.
On top of this, and I apologize to arbiterhawk for harping on it but it must be done, it seems these changes were made with the mindset that you could reduce the coverage gap to 2.5s with "micromanagement" - when in fact you can't do ANYTHING to cover that gap at all - a gap that is actually 10s. (A 33% nerf in coverage)
The devs most likely did this because they have this philosophy of "always on = boring" and "dynamic use is more fun".
The problem with this philosophy is that combat in this game is ALWAYS ON.
They need to go back to the drawing board on this, they need to either rebrand this entire power line to not be "emergency to", and re-evaluate these changes and what kind of massive yo-yo effect having a sudden gap in shield resistances for a full 10s (Rapid fire) cycle will mean.
The hysterical part in all of this is that CRUISERS, a ship class that has as it's main benefit (and only realistic option) the ability to slot 2 copies of 2 different EPTx powers now gets hit the worst.
You can't cycle
T = 0s EPTS
T = 15s EPTW
T = 30.1s EPTS
T = 45.1s EPTW
With out creating an easily exploitable window in your shield coverage.
On top of that, several other posters have made the excellent observation that having a higher boost and then a sudden drop off for 33% of the cycle is actually a bigger nerf to abilities like EPTW.
Of course the StealthSight is pointless for PvE currently. Not everything need be useful in every situation though. There should actually be opportunity cost in most situations where you simply can't run around with everything you need for every situation.
Currently, my Snooper is not as effective in FvF as he is FvK. There just aren't that many cloaked ships to have justified 9 in Sensors as well as the various gearing choices made. That's an opportunity cost - a sacrifice for X to be better for Y. And yeah, maybe I did the respec after they announced we'd be getting F-Roms and K-Roms instead of Roms.
Didn?t said it should be useful in every situation, imo the overall usefullness doesn?t justify using it. But ok taht is more or less a question of personal preferences.
Design the PvE content with PvP in mind. Test it. You won't have to make any changes for one without having had to make them for the other. There's no PvE folks complaining about changes they believe are because of PvP and no PvP folks complaining about changes they believe are because of PvE.
Wish Cryptic would have done that. And as i already said in pve you will hardly recognize the change anyways, cause for that the npc?s are just to easy and predictable.
It doesn't matter in PvE? Well, I suppose if you just play by yourself or with a group of people that do not care. Generally speaking though, in my experience, it's what makes the PvE crowd that much worse than the PvP crowd - the elitism surrounding gear.
Even STO offers a prime example of this, eh? Consider the ESTF that can be completed in 10 minutes by Group X. How often is there going to be a member of said Group X that is going to send tells to other members of that group complaining...because that particular member feels that it should be done in 5 minutes...and those other members are wasting 5 minutes of that member's life by being there.
It doesn?t matter in that way that you loose against someone cause of it, hard to loose in pve anyways. I am not talking aboutthe dps centered ppl which would prefer to take only ppl with them which have all gear maxed. If you want that you can do ESTF in premades with ppl that have the right setup/gear in your opinion.
If I notice that I've outgeared somebody - I'll usually try to pick up more of them. Yes, I've tanked 4-5 people in a Hegh'ta without TT/EPtS...no Tac/Eng BOFFs at all. Likewise, I've been vaped by a Defiant decloaking while I should have been paying better attention.
It's a MMO. It's not a FPS/TPS. It's not twitch. It's a combination of elements - there are various ways to compensate for shortcomings. That Hegh'ta, I noticed a serious lack of serious Sci on the KDF side as I was pugging about. That often resulted in Fed Cruisers acting a little too haughty for my tastes. Tada, the Sci Hegh'ta w/ 4 Sci BOFFs.
People always talk about the Bug being the best ship...I love fighting them in my Chel. Yep, I love fighting the Tac Bug w/ DHCs/Turrets in my Eng Chel w/ Beams. It's almost guaranteed that I'm going to be outgeared...but I'm not stuck with 45 degree arcs, losing bonus defense while trying to maintain those arcs, having my Captain innate abilities wasted because of the loss of those arcs, etc, etc, etc. At the same time, mind you, somebody in a Time Ship/Temporal Destroyer can destroy me if they're as good as me or better equipped. Again, it's that opportunity cost sort of thing, eh?
So basically you gave your team a big advantage cause of your gear. And btw, why do ppl always say pvp in a MMO would be so different then in FPS/TPS ?
PvP just means you are competing with another Person and not the computer. Even a strategic game is pvp if you play it agains someone other.
If someone is better as you or just did the right thing when you made a mistake they deserve to win. Id they just win cause of better gear, not so much.
When I say that separating PvE and PvP is a bad idea...is because there will never be balance. You'll have two separate games...you'd need to have two completely separate games. And then...well, you'd just have your RPG and your FPS. What would be the point? You might as well go play two games where they're focusing all the resources on what you want to do than waste time where the resources are split between two games...no?
That you won?t have 100% balance is normal, but you can get pretty close to it unless the ppl find something different. True the skills could be the same then in pve, but at least all should have access to equal gear for pvp. And access means you can get it from the start. Then you wouldn?t have to put any resources into grinding them.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
Add batteries, the new space trait, a fleet support quatermaster doff... And you have a major heal every 90s if you need it. It's up more frequently than the tac alpha strike abilities.
If the Tac is cooperating with the schedule you've outlined for them to follow for your benefit...well, let us know - I'm sure a bunch of us would like to fight that Tac.
Add armor consoles to make sure your hull is ok with 20 to 45% resists to most energy types.
45.7% resists requires a magnitude of 90. A VR Mk XII Neut provides 20 DRM for Energy/Kinetic. You can get 40 DRM for 2 energy types (3 different consoles) that does nothing for Kinetic. You can get 26.2 DRM for 4 energy types (2 different consoles) that do nothing for Kinetic. Some of it of course can be covered by skills.
So we have a major heal available every 1'30, at least 45-50 shield base resistances and you keep complaining that a 10s gap will ruin your game. Lol'd. :P
I'm sorry i don't play with an excel sheet but if you enjoy that kind of stuff feel free to provide more precise figures. I'm sure 2-3% will make a huge difference.
On my Fed Eng, the 10s gap on EPtS1 is a loss of ~23-24% shield damage reduction. It's a loss of the +18% from the EPtS1 as well as the 7% from the +25 Shield Power (again, notice it was 23-24% and not 25% - the math doesn't work that way).
Of course i'm assuming that I'm not using powers like APD, EM, RSP, TSS, HE, Aux to SIF (the second major tanking power, it's almost always up), aux to dampeners, RSF... :rolleyes:
As I mentioned in the other thread...what's actually shooting at you? If it's folks that thought they were queuing up for some ERP on Drozana and ended up in a CnH by accident...that's not the same as people with a clue to what they're doing in trying to kill you.
And btw, why do ppl always say pvp in a MMO would be so different then in FPS/TPS ?
Typical FPS/TPS - all that may differ between players may be the weapon they have.
Typical MMO - all sorts of classes, all sorts of gear, all sorts of powers.
With the first, it's far easier to base it on "skill" - "twitch" - than it is with the second - where that "skill" will no doubt have it's place, but there will also be "skill" - "knowledge"...just such a depth of complexity.
It tends to result in more than a few arguments on various forums.
Much like Player #1 having X-Gun and Player #2 having Y-Gun...where the X-Gun provides an advantage over the Y-Gun...MMOs do that with potentially hundreds of variables.
Typical FPS/TPS - all that may differ between players may be the weapon they have.
Typical MMO - all sorts of classes, all sorts of gear, all sorts of powers.
With the first, it's far easier to base it on "skill" - "twitch" - than it is with the second - where that "skill" will no doubt have it's place, but there will also be "skill" - "knowledge"...just such a depth of complexity.
It tends to result in more than a few arguments on various forums.
Much like Player #1 having X-Gun and Player #2 having Y-Gun...where the X-Gun provides an advantage over the Y-Gun...MMOs do that with potentially hundreds of variables.
The general idea is still the same. They "just" have more variables to balance, which is basically the problem of the developers. And knowing when to use which character ability is then part of the player skill.
But ok, i guess we should end this little discussion here anyways, it is already going way off topic. Which was also my fault.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
The gap is 5 seconds out of 45, for 11% - I'm not seeing where you're coming up with a 33% gap in coverage.
T=0 - Use first copy of EPtS 1
T=15 - Global Emergency Power cooldown finishes
T=20 - EPtS buff falls off
T=20.01 - Use second copy of EPtS 1
T=30 - Global Emergency Power cooldown finishes again
T=40 - EPtS buff falls off
T=45 - First copy of EPtS finshes recharging
T=45.1 - Go to T=0
You can also spread the downtime into two 2.5 second chunks on either side of the second EPtS rotation. It's really very marginal - just requires slightly more micromanagement/player finesse to keep up at the right times. We didn't want to increase the duration of EPtW's damage bonus up to 30 seconds, and we definitely wanted all of the Emergency Power buffs to last the same duration. 20 seconds is just the sweet spot of long enough duration to be noticeable, but short enough not to quite be 100% uptime.
Not trying to be funny or anything, but did you guys had those cooldowns in mind when you changed how ep2x powers? Because it would make perfect sense why you thought it that way (and I am ironic now, sorry? but you guys deserve it)!
Those changes will bring havoc to PvP. And I am not talking about premades, I am mainly referring to pugs. Pve will also be affected, but to a much lower scale. There were many opinions stated on why this would bring havoc, and whoever sais otherwise, that this changes are good, with all respect, doesn?t know what is talking about and it is not a true and real pvp-er.
How do you guys plan on bringing back the pvp crowds when all you do is adding imbalance? Really guys, this is a real question without irony. Before addressing anything in this game, other than visual items, you MUST have a deep knowledge with PvP. Because every minor error you introduce can have major effects in pvp. There is a difference though when you introduce an error by mistake, vs purposely, by not knowing/understanding the full implications. Best thing for this case is Rumsfeld?s quote:
(1)As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know.
(2)We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
(3)But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.
I think the changes to Ep2X were made under scenario (3), what the pvp community and the pve people that understand the game mechanics are trying do is to make you guys aware of the situation so you will move into(2), where you realize that you need more knowledge, and through some pvp practice, which is required to properly understand and be able to address issues in this game without introducing unwanted bugs/behavior, move to (1).
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Elite fleet shield = free and always up 20 (if you're doing it wrong) to 35% innate shield resist. It's like a free EPTS 3 and it's always up.
Let's assume our cruiser has 90 shield power level, that makes roughly +10% base resist. If we add the new warp cores it's even more. Add batteries, the new space trait, a fleet support quatermaster doff... And you have a major heal every 90s if you need it. It's up more frequently than the tac alpha strike abilities. Add armor consoles to make sure your hull is ok with 20 to 45% resists to most energy types.
So we have a major heal available every 1'30, at least 45-50 shield base resistances and you keep complaining that a 10s gap will ruin your game. Lol'd. :P
I'm sorry i don't play with an excel sheet but if you enjoy that kind of stuff feel free to provide more precise figures. I'm sure 2-3% will make a huge difference.
Of course i'm assuming that I'm not using powers like APD, EM, RSP, TSS, HE, Aux to SIF (the second major tanking power, it's almost always up), aux to dampeners, RSF... :rolleyes:
I think you misunderstood. I am arguing against your assertion that the new warp cores and battery trait compensate for the 10-second gap in EPtS. I don't know why you are bringing up elite fleet shields, quartermaster doffs, etc. As far as I know, those have not changed.
The battery trait grants +20 power for 10 seconds. People have been reporting at most +6 power from the warp cores. Each unit of shield power grants 0.28% resistance. At most, you will get (6 + 20) * 0.28% = 7.28% shield resistance. When the battery trait is not active, you will only get 6 * 0.28% = 1.68% shield resistance. In comparison, EtPS1 grants 18% shield resistance in addition to 22.4 * 0.28% = 6.27% shield resistance from the extra shield power.
I keep telling you that the battery trait is not as good as you think it is. You only see the +20 power, but don't consider how much that +20 power actually improves your ship's performance. For example, on a cruiser, +20 engine power only increases turn rate by 0.6 to 1 degree per second.
This is what my cruiser does. I'd like a dev explain to me how this will be possible after this "fix" because the room for tolerance here is very very low. Minimally effecting cruiser tanking is a total BS statement, do they test this TRIBBLE in normal difficulty fleet actions?
The general idear is still the same. They "just" have more variables to balance, which is basically the problem of the developers. And knowing when to use which character ability is then part of the player skill.
But ok, i guess we should end this little discussion here anyways, it is already going way off topic. Which was also my fault.
i really hope your spelling of "idear" was a typo, the way you may pronounce it (im in NJ i pronounce it this way) is not how it is spelled. smh
Why is no one talking about power to weapons? With the new power to weapons 2 I lose over 2000dps with the new change. So crusiers now deal less DPS and tank less. Just tested on tribble and the new power to weapons is much worse.
Really not liking the Emergency Power to Shields nerf.
Would it be possible to make the Resitance Buff - ONLY - last 30 seconds and the power boost and other parts 20 secs? This would help attenuate the constant rotation issue while still giving a res buff that could be backed by another non res buffing shield buff like TSS or Rotate Shield Frequency.
Many builds rely heavily on 2 x EPtS.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Why is no one talking about power to weapons? With the new power to weapons 2 I lose over 2000dps with the new change. So crusiers now deal less DPS and tank less. Just tested on tribble and the new power to weapons is much worse.
Sorry for the double post, but ^^^this also. We do not need to be punishing cruisers more. For engineers and science captains EPtW is one of the few options to boost damage and keep them competative.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
As I mentioned in the other thread...what's actually shooting at you? If it's folks that thought they were queuing up for some ERP on Drozana and ended up in a CnH by accident...that's not the same as people with a clue to what they're doing in trying to kill you.
I wouldn't assume kdfs are mostly bad pvp players, since i mostly do this for the lulz with my fed engineer in kerrat/c&h when i'm bored. I even see some of the pvp forums "omgnerfanythingbutme" dwellers when i do that.
And yes, shields resists do stack. Don't be dumb. That's how most people tank. :rolleyes: I know there are cryptic defensive layers mechanics at work here but I musn't be far from the exact stats anyway.
Guys please stop saying they're nerfing cruisers. They're nerfing your current builds. And mine. But there are MANY new toys planned for LoR, like the 90s miracle worker, the +20 to subsystems when you use a battery (just pick a battery CD reduction doff), warp cores, more tanking for tacs...
Everyone will need some time to find a new balance but in no way it's a "nerf of cruisers". Mine has a 40-50% base resistance to most energy types. Just buy more armor consoles and you're safe. I guess we'll get specific warp cores allowing everyone to get more power to shields and increase resistance anyway. I'm not sure yet about how this is going to work but no, engineers are about to get a massive buff and the best space traits with the expansion. So, why not?
I actually honestly agree with you and I'm a cruiser engi captian I don't run 2xemergancy to shields, but guess what I barely ever die in pve or pvp(with out tact team mind you) in full aux mode or weapons, and if I went full shields my survivability goes through the roof...
I of course have doffs which lower cool down of all the emergency powers as well as chance to power boast, these changes will encourage more people to use other EPX___
I might even change my auxtobat build to a include a higher level EP to weapons. There are other shield res buffs besides EPXS, a cruiser captian should also invest in hull resistance abilities and heals...
And yes, shields resists do stack. Don't be dumb. That's how most people tank. :rolleyes: I know there are cryptic defensive layers mechanics at work here but I musn't be far from the exact stats anyway.
He isn't saying that shield resistances don't stack; he's saying they don't stack additively. You are far from correct if you think the gain in shield resistance due to extra power from warp cores and the battery trait compensates for the loss in shield resistance during the 10-second gap in EPtS.
Why is no one talking about power to weapons? With the new power to weapons 2 I lose over 2000dps with the new change. So crusiers now deal less DPS and tank less. Just tested on tribble and the new power to weapons is much worse.
A few of us did mention this, but you may have missed it among all the other posts.
I actually honestly agree with you and I'm a cruiser engi captian I don't run 2xemergancy to shields, but guess what I barely ever die in pve or pvp(with out tact team mind you) in full aux mode or weapons, and if I went full shields my survivability goes through the roof...
Without Tac team at all, I guarantee you won't stand more than 10-20 secs to a fully buffed DECENT (not great, or best or whatever, just decent) escort pilot. Unless 10 sec of that time you use rsp. but after rsp is over, you will die. When you have a moment and mood for a quick test, please let me know, I can prove what I just said (in a very friendly and non-cocky way of course ).
I of course have doffs which lower cool down of all the emergency powers as well as chance to power boast, these changes will encourage more people to use other EPX___
with doffs for eptox cooldown or aux2batt build (w 3 purple tech), why would you ever run 2 copies of the same ep2x? That would be silly...
I might even change my auxtobat build to a include a higher level EP to weapons. There are other shield res buffs besides EPXS, a cruiser captian should also invest in hull resistance abilities and heals...
Once shield is gone, so are you, 2-5 secs later, depending on how many buffs the escort that hits you has.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
And yes, shields resists do stack. Don't be dumb. That's how most people tank. :rolleyes: I know there are cryptic defensive layers mechanics at work here but I musn't be far from the exact stats anyway.
Except you don't seem to understand how they stack, and Virusdancer does.
Here's an example formula using 125 Shield Power (35% res), EPTS 3 (30% res), Res A (15% Res) + [ADAPT]x10 stacks (20% res) vs. Phasers:
Except you don't seem to understand how they stack, and Virusdancer does.
Here's an example formula using 125 Shield Power (35% res), EPTS 3 (30% res), Res A (15% Res) + [ADAPT]x10 stacks (20% res) vs. Phasers:
=1-((1-0.35)*(1-0.3)*(1-0.15)*((1-0.02)^10))*0.9
I use to think Math was our friend...
Now, after seeing this...
I'm not so sure...
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Comments
You are wrong, ATB, ATD and ATS can have 100% up time. and so does BETA
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
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Are you certain the change to EPtW is a buff and not a nerf? I don't think anyone has test data yet, but my guess is that longer duration of the damage bonus won't compensate for the shorter duration of the weapon power bonus.
STO should be vastly different in truth. Adhering to the trinity approach of other MMOs was a critical mistake which led to this situation. The different ship types aren't different for different people's gameplay with variability, so much as shoehorned into a pre-made role that you either accept or abandon ship.
And I'm sure other MMOs balance things so you're not a virtual sitting duck without your buffs active.
It basically means I can't rely on power anymore, so I need to fly my cruiser like an escort. A really terribly bad escort.. so why would I fly it at all?
It'd make more sense to flip the naming of the powers from Emergency Power to X and Aux to X to be more in line, but it'd be confusing as hell for everyone. Game mechanics need to trump naming conventions.
When you dump EPtS for 10s thats a good 3 plasma torps per enemy you are going to be taking to non reinforced shields in elite STFs, which means that escorts are going to be one hit from boss types, cruisers might survive single enemies. Cruisers in Hive Onslaught with threat control will be deader than dead could be.
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Of course the StealthSight is pointless for PvE currently. Not everything need be useful in every situation though. There should actually be opportunity cost in most situations where you simply can't run around with everything you need for every situation.
Currently, my Snooper is not as effective in FvF as he is FvK. There just aren't that many cloaked ships to have justified 9 in Sensors as well as the various gearing choices made. That's an opportunity cost - a sacrifice for X to be better for Y. And yeah, maybe I did the respec after they announced we'd be getting F-Roms and K-Roms instead of Roms.
Design the PvE content with PvP in mind. Test it. You won't have to make any changes for one without having had to make them for the other. There's no PvE folks complaining about changes they believe are because of PvP and no PvP folks complaining about changes they believe are because of PvE.
It doesn't matter in PvE? Well, I suppose if you just play by yourself or with a group of people that do not care. Generally speaking though, in my experience, it's what makes the PvE crowd that much worse than the PvP crowd - the elitism surrounding gear.
Even STO offers a prime example of this, eh? Consider the ESTF that can be completed in 10 minutes by Group X. How often is there going to be a member of said Group X that is going to send tells to other members of that group complaining...because that particular member feels that it should be done in 5 minutes...and those other members are wasting 5 minutes of that member's life by being there.
If I notice that I've outgeared somebody - I'll usually try to pick up more of them. Yes, I've tanked 4-5 people in a Hegh'ta without TT/EPtS...no Tac/Eng BOFFs at all. Likewise, I've been vaped by a Defiant decloaking while I should have been paying better attention.
It's a MMO. It's not a FPS/TPS. It's not twitch. It's a combination of elements - there are various ways to compensate for shortcomings. That Hegh'ta, I noticed a serious lack of serious Sci on the KDF side as I was pugging about. That often resulted in Fed Cruisers acting a little too haughty for my tastes. Tada, the Sci Hegh'ta w/ 4 Sci BOFFs.
People always talk about the Bug being the best ship...I love fighting them in my Chel. Yep, I love fighting the Tac Bug w/ DHCs/Turrets in my Eng Chel w/ Beams. It's almost guaranteed that I'm going to be outgeared...but I'm not stuck with 45 degree arcs, losing bonus defense while trying to maintain those arcs, having my Captain innate abilities wasted because of the loss of those arcs, etc, etc, etc. At the same time, mind you, somebody in a Time Ship/Temporal Destroyer can destroy me if they're as good as me or better equipped. Again, it's that opportunity cost sort of thing, eh?
When I say that separating PvE and PvP is a bad idea...is because there will never be balance. You'll have two separate games...you'd need to have two completely separate games. And then...well, you'd just have your RPG and your FPS. What would be the point? You might as well go play two games where they're focusing all the resources on what you want to do than waste time where the resources are split between two games...no?
Elite fleet shield = free and always up 20 (if you're doing it wrong) to 35% innate shield resist. It's like a free EPTS 3 and it's always up.
Let's assume our cruiser has 90 shield power level, that makes roughly +10% base resist. If we add the new warp cores it's even more. Add batteries, the new space trait, a fleet support quatermaster doff... And you have a major heal every 90s if you need it (miracle worker). It's up more frequently than the tac alpha strike abilities. Add armor consoles to make sure your hull is ok with 20 to 45% resists to most energy types.
So we have a major heal available every 1'30, at least 45-50 shield base resistances and you keep complaining that a 10s gap will ruin your game. Lol'd. :P
I'm sorry i don't play with an excel sheet but if you enjoy that kind of stuff feel free to provide more precise figures. I'm sure 2-3% will make a huge difference.
Of course i'm assuming that I'm not using powers like APD, EM, RSP, TSS, HE, Aux to SIF (the second major tanking power, it's almost always up), aux to dampeners, RSF... :rolleyes:
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
With the changes to EPtS, I think there will be a lot less cross-healing going on. The heals that the Tank/Healer would give to teammates will, more times than naught, be held in reserve for those 10 seconds of downtime.
But with the changes to EPtW, everyone that uses it will see an increase in DPS. More Escort pilots will take it and see an even greater boost thanks to their DHCs. More DPS for the Escorts, will mean more threat generated... meaning more of a need for teammates to heal them. Unfortunately, the Tank/Healer will be too busy healing themselves.
While the above does not promote good teamwork; I believe it will happen.
And now for something constructive:
The more I thought about the changes in duration; the more I came to realize that they seem more similar to Batteries. If these changes are set in stone; how about a compromise?
I have no idea how difficult this would be to code. Starship Electro-Plasma Systems already has an effect on EPtX abilities. What if it would also increase the duration of the EPtX abilities? Currently like Starship Batteries affects the duration of batteries. If fully trained, it could also grant a maximum +10 seconds to duration.
So basically, for an extremely short period of time, you'll be almost as vulnerable as PUG players. What a shame.
You're very correct with this statement, but wrong with everything you didn't say. From a PvP point of view (that sadly, 99% of cryptic devs don't even know it exists, or at least have no clue how to play it and balance it), you do make super-tanks less tanky, but compare how much an escort is losing versus a cruiser/sci... an escort is also going to have a 10 sec gap between ep2s, which can be compensated by a tss for example. Agree, escort is going to feel less tanky, but timing an attack to an opponent in that 10 sec gap will be all it needs. Think a cruiser would be an escort opponent. At best case scenario, TT will cover some of the gap fro cruiser, but not all of it, since in theory, under heavy fire in pvp you can't afford to hold on your tt till your eps 20 sec effect will end, just to make sure those 10 secs will be covered. Without a tt, even eps3 @125 power will get a face pierced fast... Heck, that?s valid in Elite STFs too. Also, even if you can afford having a TSS, it would be a pain to cycle it with EPS since they don?t use same global cooldown (I am referring to binding them to same key, eps with tss, so you will have an active shield resist all time). So at least this ep2s change is not a good one, it has some good sides but overall is worse than what it is now in the current game.
Regarding zombie cruisers, whoever does that, you know it has no value in pvp? or pve for that reason. Just because you don?t die easy it doesn't mean you have a contribution to your team. Just because you can throw couple heals doesn't make you more useful. Most people will ignore you in pvp, will try to separate you as a healer (tbr works great 99% situations) and in pve you still can?t do any damage, so any other player that does more damage would be more useful.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
They won't be fixing that, they've made it worse.
You still need to have EPTS running 100% of the time it's available, the only difference now is that you can't actually do this.
Unfortunately the devs do not test for PvP, it's not really on their general radar outside of the pity that Bort seems to have for the PvP community in this game (and which the vast majority of really, really appreciate).
So nothing has changed. All EPTx abilities have been simultaneously buffed and nerfed at the same time.
Powers that were designed to be continuously cycled, this is unavoidable due to how the shared and global cooldowns function.
Now we have a buff cycle that pushes you towards NOT cycling them and holding them in reserve.
EXCEPT YOU CAN'T hold them in reserve when you have multiple EPTx abilities (Like Cruisers) because of how shared and global cooldowns work.
On top of this, and I apologize to arbiterhawk for harping on it but it must be done, it seems these changes were made with the mindset that you could reduce the coverage gap to 2.5s with "micromanagement" - when in fact you can't do ANYTHING to cover that gap at all - a gap that is actually 10s. (A 33% nerf in coverage)
The devs most likely did this because they have this philosophy of "always on = boring" and "dynamic use is more fun".
The problem with this philosophy is that combat in this game is ALWAYS ON.
They need to go back to the drawing board on this, they need to either rebrand this entire power line to not be "emergency to", and re-evaluate these changes and what kind of massive yo-yo effect having a sudden gap in shield resistances for a full 10s (Rapid fire) cycle will mean.
The hysterical part in all of this is that CRUISERS, a ship class that has as it's main benefit (and only realistic option) the ability to slot 2 copies of 2 different EPTx powers now gets hit the worst.
You can't cycle
T = 0s EPTS
T = 15s EPTW
T = 30.1s EPTS
T = 45.1s EPTW
With out creating an easily exploitable window in your shield coverage.
On top of that, several other posters have made the excellent observation that having a higher boost and then a sudden drop off for 33% of the cycle is actually a bigger nerf to abilities like EPTW.
Didn?t said it should be useful in every situation, imo the overall usefullness doesn?t justify using it. But ok taht is more or less a question of personal preferences.
Wish Cryptic would have done that. And as i already said in pve you will hardly recognize the change anyways, cause for that the npc?s are just to easy and predictable.
It doesn?t matter in that way that you loose against someone cause of it, hard to loose in pve anyways. I am not talking aboutthe dps centered ppl which would prefer to take only ppl with them which have all gear maxed. If you want that you can do ESTF in premades with ppl that have the right setup/gear in your opinion.
So basically you gave your team a big advantage cause of your gear. And btw, why do ppl always say pvp in a MMO would be so different then in FPS/TPS ?
PvP just means you are competing with another Person and not the computer. Even a strategic game is pvp if you play it agains someone other.
If someone is better as you or just did the right thing when you made a mistake they deserve to win. Id they just win cause of better gear, not so much.
That you won?t have 100% balance is normal, but you can get pretty close to it unless the ppl find something different. True the skills could be the same then in pve, but at least all should have access to equal gear for pvp. And access means you can get it from the start. Then you wouldn?t have to put any resources into grinding them.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
The math doesn't work that way. The 20 from the Adapt and the 15 from the ResA/ResB does not equal 35.
Would be 25.2% base shield damage reduction at 90 shield power (not taking into account anything else).
The +6 from a W->S would take you to 26.9% shield damage reduction.
That 26.9% is not added to the 20% from Adapt nor 15% from ResA/ResB. You're not at 61.9% at this point.
If the Tac is cooperating with the schedule you've outlined for them to follow for your benefit...well, let us know - I'm sure a bunch of us would like to fight that Tac.
45.7% resists requires a magnitude of 90. A VR Mk XII Neut provides 20 DRM for Energy/Kinetic. You can get 40 DRM for 2 energy types (3 different consoles) that does nothing for Kinetic. You can get 26.2 DRM for 4 energy types (2 different consoles) that do nothing for Kinetic. Some of it of course can be covered by skills.
On my Fed Eng, the 10s gap on EPtS1 is a loss of ~23-24% shield damage reduction. It's a loss of the +18% from the EPtS1 as well as the 7% from the +25 Shield Power (again, notice it was 23-24% and not 25% - the math doesn't work that way).
As I mentioned in the other thread...what's actually shooting at you? If it's folks that thought they were queuing up for some ERP on Drozana and ended up in a CnH by accident...that's not the same as people with a clue to what they're doing in trying to kill you.
Typical FPS/TPS - all that may differ between players may be the weapon they have.
Typical MMO - all sorts of classes, all sorts of gear, all sorts of powers.
With the first, it's far easier to base it on "skill" - "twitch" - than it is with the second - where that "skill" will no doubt have it's place, but there will also be "skill" - "knowledge"...just such a depth of complexity.
It tends to result in more than a few arguments on various forums.
Much like Player #1 having X-Gun and Player #2 having Y-Gun...where the X-Gun provides an advantage over the Y-Gun...MMOs do that with potentially hundreds of variables.
The general idea is still the same. They "just" have more variables to balance, which is basically the problem of the developers. And knowing when to use which character ability is then part of the player skill.
But ok, i guess we should end this little discussion here anyways, it is already going way off topic. Which was also my fault.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
Not trying to be funny or anything, but did you guys had those cooldowns in mind when you changed how ep2x powers? Because it would make perfect sense why you thought it that way (and I am ironic now, sorry? but you guys deserve it)!
Those changes will bring havoc to PvP. And I am not talking about premades, I am mainly referring to pugs. Pve will also be affected, but to a much lower scale. There were many opinions stated on why this would bring havoc, and whoever sais otherwise, that this changes are good, with all respect, doesn?t know what is talking about and it is not a true and real pvp-er.
How do you guys plan on bringing back the pvp crowds when all you do is adding imbalance? Really guys, this is a real question without irony. Before addressing anything in this game, other than visual items, you MUST have a deep knowledge with PvP. Because every minor error you introduce can have major effects in pvp. There is a difference though when you introduce an error by mistake, vs purposely, by not knowing/understanding the full implications. Best thing for this case is Rumsfeld?s quote:
(1)As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know.
(2)We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
(3)But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.
I think the changes to Ep2X were made under scenario (3), what the pvp community and the pve people that understand the game mechanics are trying do is to make you guys aware of the situation so you will move into(2), where you realize that you need more knowledge, and through some pvp practice, which is required to properly understand and be able to address issues in this game without introducing unwanted bugs/behavior, move to (1).
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I think you misunderstood. I am arguing against your assertion that the new warp cores and battery trait compensate for the 10-second gap in EPtS. I don't know why you are bringing up elite fleet shields, quartermaster doffs, etc. As far as I know, those have not changed.
The battery trait grants +20 power for 10 seconds. People have been reporting at most +6 power from the warp cores. Each unit of shield power grants 0.28% resistance. At most, you will get (6 + 20) * 0.28% = 7.28% shield resistance. When the battery trait is not active, you will only get 6 * 0.28% = 1.68% shield resistance. In comparison, EtPS1 grants 18% shield resistance in addition to 22.4 * 0.28% = 6.27% shield resistance from the extra shield power.
I keep telling you that the battery trait is not as good as you think it is. You only see the +20 power, but don't consider how much that +20 power actually improves your ship's performance. For example, on a cruiser, +20 engine power only increases turn rate by 0.6 to 1 degree per second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQZFFqrmBqM
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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Visit our Youtube channel
i really hope your spelling of "idear" was a typo, the way you may pronounce it (im in NJ i pronounce it this way) is not how it is spelled. smh
Yep another typo , already erased the r.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
Would it be possible to make the Resitance Buff - ONLY - last 30 seconds and the power boost and other parts 20 secs? This would help attenuate the constant rotation issue while still giving a res buff that could be backed by another non res buffing shield buff like TSS or Rotate Shield Frequency.
Many builds rely heavily on 2 x EPtS.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
Sorry for the double post, but ^^^this also. We do not need to be punishing cruisers more. For engineers and science captains EPtW is one of the few options to boost damage and keep them competative.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
I wouldn't assume kdfs are mostly bad pvp players, since i mostly do this for the lulz with my fed engineer in kerrat/c&h when i'm bored. I even see some of the pvp forums "omgnerfanythingbutme" dwellers when i do that.
And yes, shields resists do stack. Don't be dumb. That's how most people tank. :rolleyes: I know there are cryptic defensive layers mechanics at work here but I musn't be far from the exact stats anyway.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
eptx 1 = 10 seconds duration
eptx 2 = 20 seconds duration
eptx 3 = 30 seconds duration
I actually honestly agree with you and I'm a cruiser engi captian I don't run 2xemergancy to shields, but guess what I barely ever die in pve or pvp(with out tact team mind you) in full aux mode or weapons, and if I went full shields my survivability goes through the roof...
I of course have doffs which lower cool down of all the emergency powers as well as chance to power boast, these changes will encourage more people to use other EPX___
I might even change my auxtobat build to a include a higher level EP to weapons. There are other shield res buffs besides EPXS, a cruiser captian should also invest in hull resistance abilities and heals...
He isn't saying that shield resistances don't stack; he's saying they don't stack additively. You are far from correct if you think the gain in shield resistance due to extra power from warp cores and the battery trait compensates for the loss in shield resistance during the 10-second gap in EPtS.
A few of us did mention this, but you may have missed it among all the other posts.
Without Tac team at all, I guarantee you won't stand more than 10-20 secs to a fully buffed DECENT (not great, or best or whatever, just decent) escort pilot. Unless 10 sec of that time you use rsp. but after rsp is over, you will die. When you have a moment and mood for a quick test, please let me know, I can prove what I just said (in a very friendly and non-cocky way of course
with doffs for eptox cooldown or aux2batt build (w 3 purple tech), why would you ever run 2 copies of the same ep2x? That would be silly...
Once shield is gone, so are you, 2-5 secs later, depending on how many buffs the escort that hits you has.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Except you don't seem to understand how they stack, and Virusdancer does.
Here's an example formula using 125 Shield Power (35% res), EPTS 3 (30% res), Res A (15% Res) + [ADAPT]x10 stacks (20% res) vs. Phasers:
=1-((1-0.35)*(1-0.3)*(1-0.15)*((1-0.02)^10))*0.9
I use to think Math was our friend...
Now, after seeing this...
I'm not so sure...
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion