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Sela ~ What's Likely, What's Not

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  • edited March 2013
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  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    chooch99a wrote: »
    The JJ verse is pretty much an "alternate universe" now, not an alternate timeline,. Alternate timelines can be undone. They never called it an alternate "Timeline" in the film. Uhura referred to "alternate universe".

    It became a fixed parallel universe, not a dynamic alterable timeline.

    Essentially if you examine the Kelvin, you can only come to the conclusion that this was already an alternate timeline that Nero intruded into (it's happened before, when the TOS Defiant travelled to the past and into the mirror universe).

    So the only real change would be that Vulcan doesn't implode and Kirk will get a command when he actually deserves it.
    Everybody wins.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    chooch99a wrote: »
    The JJ verse is pretty much an "alternate universe" now, not an alternate timeline,. Alternate timelines can be undone. They never called it an alternate "Timeline" in the film. Uhura referred to "alternate universe".

    It became a fixed parallel universe, not a dynamic alterable timeline.

    M-theory blows that idea out of the water.
  • chooch99achooch99a Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    If it was just an un-doable alt timeline, the JJ changes would have overridden the prime timeline as in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

    So the explanation has to pretty much default to it is a divergent, alternate universe who's creation was the result of the blackhole sending Nero not just back in time, but to a parallel reality that then got altered.
    Essentially if you examine the Kelvin, you can only come to the conclusion that this was already an alternate timeline that Nero intruded into (it's happened before, when the TOS Defiant travelled to the past and into the mirror universe).

    So the only real change would be that Vulcan doesn't implode and Kirk will get a command when he actually deserves it.
    Everybody wins.

    Yes exactly. it doesn't matter if it follows quantum mechanics to the T; it's techno babble for a Sci Fi series to allow 2 timelines that do not effect one another.
  • alanburchalanburch Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    chooch99a wrote: »
    Like B5, the major players were offered something by agents of an ancient, mysterious dark empire, to set the powers against one another and weaken them in prep for the clean up Invasion to come.

    That summary is how I see this Great Galactic War of 2409. It only makes sense that there should be a Romulan Civil War since all of the other major factions have been manuevered into fighting by some unseen force.

    Everyone keeps pointing to the Iconians...why? Something else more terrible may be going on. It's almost like the whole galaxy is going through one long episode of Day of the Dove.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    chooch99a wrote: »
    If it was just an un-doable alt timeline, the JJ changes would have overridden the prime timeline as in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

    So the explanation has to pretty much default to it is a divergent, alternate universe who's creation was the result of the blackhole sending Nero not just back in time, but to a parallel reality that then got altered.

    Or...it's one of an infinite number of "alternate" universes being constantly created at every decision point of every event across the universe at every moment.

    To put it simply: JJ stays on that side of the multiverse, Prime stays over here. Everybody wins.
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You know, with the recent talk about Sela and her Iconian connection, as well as Babylon 5 parallels. Well, this also got me thinking about the Tholians as well.

    As I proposed in another thread recently, that the Tholians are like the Vorlon, being a mysterious race that appears to be Xenophobia and just happens to be getting involved with certain events. (Maybe even the ancient enemy of the Iconians?) Like in Enterprise they were determined to stop Archer from learning about the Time Pod, and prevented the Suliban from gaining it as well. But we never found out why. Were they trying to keep that technology out of the hands of the 22nd Century humans? Or were they preserving the timeline?

    After all the Suliban were working for Future guy, who was supposed to be a Romulan. Whom very well could be wanting to prevent the Hobus event and prevent the founding of the Federation. (Or maybe in an ironic twist, purposely pushing to encourage the formation of the Federation). Because it's interesting he provided information about the Xindi, whom were working for the Sphere Builders, who in modern times could very well end up collaborating with the Iconians to destroy the Earth.


    Anyhow, I digress - back to the Tholians. Just interesting that the Tholians are investigating Iconian technology and all of a sudden we have them capturing the Enterprise C. Was that accident or on purpose? If the Enterprise C doesn't go back in time, Sela wouldn't be born and so would her involvement with the Iconians. So maybe opted an alternate future was better to stop the Iconians?

    And people talk about T'nae, if you think about it, maybe she ends up being a Tholian agent and she ends up helping us to defeat the Iconians from within? Maybe she ends up the one who left us those secret recordings that alerted us to the Tal'Shair's actions?


    Such an interesting plot this is really starting to be. A puzzle to be solved or a just one massive conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    You know what? Taking this one little bit completely out of context from everything else you wrote? If Cryptic somehow used T'Nae going back in time, being captured by the Romulans, and informing them of Romulus' destruction to ultimately UNDO everything J.J. Trek did to the prime universe????...

    Love. Absolute love. I would not only bow at Cryptic's feet, but I think most Trekkies would too, and if CBS does indeed believe "It's canon if enough people believe it," I think you'd have an ARMY of Trekkies arguing that Star Trek Online is canon because of how FREAKIN AWESOME of a solution this would be for J.J. ruining a beloved faction of the series.

    No. This is a terrible idea. It would totally shut the door on all the great storytelling avenues opened up by the disaster, and would cheapen any future tragedy by setting the precedent that even large-scale events can simply be reset.
  • chooch99achooch99a Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Or...it's one of an infinite number of "alternate" universes being constantly created at every decision point of every event across the universe at every moment.

    To put it simply: JJ stays on that side of the multiverse, Prime stays over here. Everybody wins.

    That's why JJ did this. Hate him or love him, he wasn't going to step on the toes of what came before, he wanted a clean slate so he would not offend Trekkies, he couldn't win no matter how he did it. If he kept it in the Prime Uni, rabid fans would have torn his film apart anyways with not respecting canon to the precise letter.

    He was creatively "cornered".
  • alanburchalanburch Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    You know what? Taking this one little bit completely out of context from everything else you wrote? If Cryptic somehow used T'Nae going back in time, being captured by the Romulans, and informing them of Romulus' destruction to ultimately UNDO everything J.J. Trek did to the prime universe????...

    Love. Absolute love. I would not only bow at Cryptic's feet, but I think most Trekkies would too, and if CBS does indeed believe "It's canon if enough people believe it," I think you'd have an ARMY of Trekkies arguing that Star Trek Online is canon because of how FREAKIN AWESOME of a solution this would be for J.J. ruining a beloved faction of the series.

    NEVER going to happen pal...
  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    alanburch wrote: »
    That summary is how I see this Great Galactic War of 2409. It only makes sense that there should be a Romulan Civil War since all of the other major factions have been manuevered into fighting by some unseen force.

    Everyone keeps pointing to the Iconians...why? Something else more terrible may be going on. It's almost like the whole galaxy is going through one long episode of Day of the Dove.

    Obviously it's Reapers.
    They blew up Romulus in order to eliminate the chance that someone may blow up Romulus.
  • chooch99achooch99a Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Anyhow, I digress - back to the Tholians. Just interesting that the Tholians are investigating Iconian technology and all of a sudden we have them capturing the Enterprise C. Was that accident or on purpose? If the Enterprise C doesn't go back in time, Sela wouldn't be born and so would her involvement with the Iconians. So maybe opted an alternate future was better to stop the Iconians?

    I could be wrong, but it felt to me like they just wanted to make more use of the Tholian assets and make the FE more interesting.
  • felderburgfelderburg Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    chooch99a wrote: »
    Hav, did you even read the path to 2409? She was pretty clearly working with Iconians.

    I thought that was the Hirogen? The Path to 2409 says she offers them free hunting in exchange for help, which is why there have been many people hoping the Romulan faction would include Romulans, Remans, and Hirogen.
  • dastahldastahl Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You know, with the recent talk about Sela and her Iconian connection, as well as Babylon 5 parallels. Well, this also got me thinking about the Tholians as well...

    Your theory would make this scene a little more interesting...
    Senate Scene from Nemesis (YouTube)
  • thehavrahathehavraha Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Star Trek has treated timelines differently from different episodes.

    JJ-Trek definitely seems to be going off M-Theory, that there are infinite universes of possibility and changing something ends up branching into a different timeline.

    However, The City on the Edge of Forever argued that the timeline is fixed. If you go back in time and change one thing, you've altered the entire course of the timeline. The Enterprise's crew was protected from this by the Guardian itself, which allowed them the capability to go back in time and stop Bones.

    Star Trek: First Contact was similar in the sense that the Borg's time traveling antics affected the prime universe. The Enterprise-E's warp field, supposedly, protected it from the affects, allowing them to devise a way to travel back in time and correct it.

    I think if you were going to go off M-Theory has JJ would, and argue that T'Nae gave the Romulans fore-knowledge of its destruction, allowing them the capability to stop Taris and the Hobus explosion in affect, then you would essentially be making yet another timeline ... a timeline where Romulus is intact.

    You could also argue that this is a fixed timeline thing, and upon T'Nae informing the Romulan's about the threat, they prevent it, undoing the destruction of Romulus. What affect would this have on the J.J. timeline? Logic would dictate it would no longer exist.

    Hmm, does anyone else have any ideas on this?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am a Cheestah.
    Check out my Foundry missions
    Fed: "To Helna and Back", "Rema Donna", "Animations with Helna", "Mudd's Weapons", "Waiting for Wednesday", "Monolith"
    KDF: "Time the Enemy", "Time the Ally", "Time the Traitor"
  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    Star Trek has treated timelines differently from different episodes.

    JJ-Trek definitely seems to be going off M-Theory, that there are infinite universes of possibility and changing something ends up branching into a different timeline.

    However, The City on the Edge of Forever argued that the timeline is fixed. If you go back in time and change one thing, you've altered the entire course of the timeline. The Enterprise's crew was protected from this by the Guardian itself, which allowed them the capability to go back in time and stop Bones.

    Star Trek: First Contact was similar in the sense that the Borg's time traveling antics affected the prime universe. The Enterprise-E's warp field, supposedly, protected it from the affects, allowing them to devise a way to travel back in time and correct it.

    I think if you were going to go off M-Theory has JJ would, and argue that T'Nae gave the Romulans fore-knowledge of its destruction, allowing them the capability to stop Taris and the Hobus explosion in affect, then you would essentially be making yet another timeline ... a timeline where Romulus is intact.

    You could also argue that this is a fixed timeline thing, and upon T'Nae informing the Romulan's about the threat, they prevent it, undoing the destruction of Romulus. What affect would this have on the J.J. timeline? Logic would dictate it would no longer exist.

    Hmm, does anyone else have any ideas on this?

    I see no contradictions actually, it all has to do with point of view.
    It's entirely possible that the timeline protection of the Guardian and the Borg sphere's wake, etc. is actually a burden, and if they weren't "protected" they'd simply carry on in their original universe (though in the first case, McCoy would probably be lost for good).

    The timeline is "fixed" from their perspective, as they have returned to their own, or another alternate universe that's the closest approximation (and now has a history of the Borg bombing some shacks in Montana).
  • thegreendragoon1thegreendragoon1 Member Posts: 1,872 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    ...You could also argue that this is a fixed timeline thing, and upon T'Nae informing the Romulan's about the threat, they prevent it, undoing the destruction of Romulus. What affect would this have on the J.J. timeline? Logic would dictate it would no longer exist...

    If they did do that in STO, can we call it, "The Prime Universe Strikes Back?" :P
  • alanburchalanburch Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    Star Trek has treated timelines differently from different episodes.

    JJ-Trek definitely seems to be going off M-Theory, that there are infinite universes of possibility and changing something ends up branching into a different timeline.

    However, The City on the Edge of Forever argued that the timeline is fixed. If you go back in time and change one thing, you've altered the entire course of the timeline. The Enterprise's crew was protected from this by the Guardian itself, which allowed them the capability to go back in time and stop Bones.

    Star Trek: First Contact was similar in the sense that the Borg's time traveling antics affected the prime universe. The Enterprise-E's warp field, supposedly, protected it from the affects, allowing them to devise a way to travel back in time and correct it.

    I think if you were going to go off M-Theory has JJ would, and argue that T'Nae gave the Romulans fore-knowledge of its destruction, allowing them the capability to stop Taris and the Hobus explosion in affect, then you would essentially be making yet another timeline ... a timeline where Romulus is intact.

    You could also argue that this is a fixed timeline thing, and upon T'Nae informing the Romulan's about the threat, they prevent it, undoing the destruction of Romulus. What affect would this have on the J.J. timeline? Logic would dictate it would no longer exist.

    Hmm, does anyone else have any ideas on this?

    The writers for ST-2009 debated this and came up with the word-pair "alternate timeline" so that fans could envision it either way. Most, however, agree that they are referring to the multi-verse theory as established in TOS Mirror Mirror and expanded on in TNG Parallels.
  • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    alanburch wrote: »
    The writers for ST-2009 debated this and came up with the word "alternate timeline" so that fans could envision it either way. Most, however, agree that they are referring to the multi-verse theory as established in TOS Mirror Mirror and expanded on in TNG Parallels.

    Wait.

    JJ Trek had writers?
  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    JJ-Trek definitely seems to be going off M-Theory, that there are infinite universes of possibility and changing something ends up branching into a different timeline.

    That's not what M-Theory is... M-Theory is an extension of string theory.
    http://mmo-economics.com - analysing the economic interactions in MMOs.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dastahl wrote: »
    Your theory would make this scene a little more interesting...
    Senate Scene from Nemesis (YouTube)

    Are you insinuating that the planet is the picture which looks like hell had a thalaron weapon used on it?

    Two can play this game :P
    GwaoHAD.png
  • thehavrahathehavraha Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lizwei wrote: »
    I see no contradictions actually, it all has to do with point of view.
    It's entirely possible that the timeline protection of the Guardian and the Borg sphere's wake, etc. is actually a burden, and if they weren't "protected" they'd simply carry on in their original universe (though in the first case, McCoy would probably be lost for good).

    The timeline is "fixed" from their perspective, as they have returned to their own, or another alternate universe that's the closest approximation (and now has a history of the Borg bombing some shacks in Montana).

    First Contact, I'm pretty sure, had a shot showing a completely assimilated Earth. It's what caused the Enterprise-E to figure out what had happened, and why they weren't effected.

    It's quite different from M-Theory.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am a Cheestah.
    Check out my Foundry missions
    Fed: "To Helna and Back", "Rema Donna", "Animations with Helna", "Mudd's Weapons", "Waiting for Wednesday", "Monolith"
    KDF: "Time the Enemy", "Time the Ally", "Time the Traitor"
  • thehavrahathehavraha Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    walshicus wrote: »
    That's not what M-Theory is... M-Theory is an extension of string theory.

    You're right. I should be saying the "Many Worlds Interpretation of String Theory".
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am a Cheestah.
    Check out my Foundry missions
    Fed: "To Helna and Back", "Rema Donna", "Animations with Helna", "Mudd's Weapons", "Waiting for Wednesday", "Monolith"
    KDF: "Time the Enemy", "Time the Ally", "Time the Traitor"
  • chooch99achooch99a Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The bottom line though, is again that if the JJ verse was a simple alternate timeline like the one in "Yesterday's Enterprise", it would have overridden the prime universe timeline.

    But it didn't.

    So to entertain the "chance" you could undo it is a bit far fetched. Not to mention the fact that outside the in story explanations, it just isn't happening, it's the most profitable set of films the franchise has had (so far).

    Trek will always have it's own set of physics, we need to apply M-theory to THAT and say "okay in the Trek physics this is how this works.."

    Which translates into "It works whatever way the writers dictate".
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    Hmm, does anyone else have any ideas on this?

    Actually.... actually, yes.

    Write it so that T'Nae saving Romulus turns out to be bad for everyone, and they have to go back and fix it, restoring the timeline of STO to its proper, Prime-canon-influenced course.

    Okay so. T'Nae manages to convince the Romulans the disaster is coming, and somehow it is averted. Romulus is at full strength. Then the Iconians come knocking, stirring up the war in pretty much the same way as in the correct timeline. This leaves the Federation at war with everyone again, but there's two critical differences; the Federation and Klingons have no ceasefire agreement to deal with the Borg, and the Romulans are actively involved. The result? The Federation is on the verge of defeat; the Borg are spreading like gangrene through the Federation's weakened defenses; the Cardassian government is struggling after DS9 was abandoned in favor of shoring up defenses elsewhere, leaving the True Way to run rampant; the Klingons have pushed all the way to Risa, stopping only because the Borg have begun picking on them; and the Romulans are similarly encroaching as they open hostilities on their weakened Klingon enemies as well.

    The player is sent to study an unusual micronebula at the start of the mission. The properties of the nebula interact with some aspect of the scan being performed, inadvertently creating a temporal shield that protects the ship from the changes to the universe. The player must find out what changed. Then, when the player realizes that the impending destruction of every race in the quadrant hinges on the deaths of billions anyway... They have no choice but to correct the timeline, but whether the player justifies it in their mind or is torn apart inside by the choice is determined via dialog.

    It's perfect. Massive moral quandary, but neither choice being optimal. It's Trek through and through.
  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    thehavraha wrote: »
    You're right. I should be saying the "Many Worlds Interpretation of String Theory".

    It's not really a String Theory thing either; it predates it and is one of the earlier interpretations of Quantum Mechanics' implication. :)
    http://mmo-economics.com - analysing the economic interactions in MMOs.
  • thehavrahathehavraha Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    chooch99a wrote: »
    The bottom line though, is again that if the JJ verse was a simple alternate timeline like the one in "Yesterday's Enterprise", it would have overridden the prime universe timeline.

    But it didn't.

    So to entertain the "chance" you could undo it is a bit far fetched. Not to mention the fact that outside the in story explanations, it just isn't happening, it's the most profitable set of films the franchise has had (so far).

    Trek will always have it's own set of physics, we need to apply M-theory to THAT and say "okay in the Trek physics this is how this works.."

    Which translates into "It works whatever way the writers dictate".

    This is true, although I'm not so eager to destroy JJ-Verse so much as I am eager to repair the damage HE did to the Prime Universe. He didn't need to destroy Romulus in it. According to Al Rivera, the writers of it were trying to destroy pretty much everything, including the TNG cast by killing them off.

    I'm eager to find a way to get this to repair the destruction of Romulus. JJ-Verse can exist for all I care, I think it needs to just not TRIBBLE with the Prime Universe. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am a Cheestah.
    Check out my Foundry missions
    Fed: "To Helna and Back", "Rema Donna", "Animations with Helna", "Mudd's Weapons", "Waiting for Wednesday", "Monolith"
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  • chooch99achooch99a Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    This is true, although I'm not so eager to destroy JJ-Verse so much as I am eager to repair the damage HE did to the Prime Universe. He didn't need to destroy Romulus in it. According to Al Rivera, the writers of it were trying to destroy pretty much everything, including the TNG cast by killing them off.

    I'm eager to find a way to get this to repair the destruction of Romulus. JJ-Verse can exist for all I care, I think it needs to just not TRIBBLE with the Prime Universe.

    You would like the fan series "Star Trek Odyssey", by the final ep they save Romulus and you realize it was a alternate universe all along. :D
  • alanburchalanburch Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lizwei wrote: »
    Wait.

    JJ Trek had writers?

    < coughs >
  • thehavrahathehavraha Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jexsamx wrote: »
    It's perfect. Massive moral quandary, but neither choice being optimal. It's Trek through and through.

    Well, you have to realize I'm bias and I want Romulus back permanently, not back for a while before we destroy it again, so to me this just isn't compelling.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am a Cheestah.
    Check out my Foundry missions
    Fed: "To Helna and Back", "Rema Donna", "Animations with Helna", "Mudd's Weapons", "Waiting for Wednesday", "Monolith"
    KDF: "Time the Enemy", "Time the Ally", "Time the Traitor"
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