You Really Don't Get It Do You? A Cruiser Will Never Kill A Properly Built Escort. And It's More Likely Than Not That The Cruiser Will Probably Die To The Escort. And It's Not A False Problem. You Just Can't Accept That You Could Possibly Be Wrong.
Try Looking At This From A Point Of View Other Than Your Own. An Escort Has -20% Hull And -15% Shields Of A Cruiser. But What Does It Get In Return? 2-300% Turn Rate And 4-500% Damage.
On The Flipside, A Cruiser Has 125% Hull Of An Escort And 120% The Shields. But What Does It Sacrifice For This Tiny Gain? It Is Afflicted 33% Turn Rate Of An Escort And Maybe 25% Damage. But If You See That As Balanced, Then I Give Up. Your Ignorance And Close-minded Way Of Thinking Is Blinding You To An Obvious And Easily Proven Truth.
Any Escorts You've Killed With A Cruiser Are Probably Incompetent And Don't Know How To Build Correctly. I Can Guarantee You Any Escort Flown By An Actually Semi-decent Player Will Slap Around All The Other Ship Classes With Impunity. A Cruiser Can Possibly Survive For A While, And Probably Will Last For A Long Time, But In The End, It Will Be A Burning Wreck Left Behind.
A Properly Built Escort Will Never Die To A Cruiser In A 1v1. Probably Not Even In A 2v1. 3v1, Possibly, It Depends On The Cruisers And The Escort. 4v1, Probably. 5v1... Well Let's Just Say If 5 Cruisers Can't Kill A Single Escort, Then Those Pilots Are Idiots.
On The Flipside, 2v1 Escort Vs Cruiser, It's Very Likely The Cruiser Will Die. 3v1, It's Still Very Likely, If Not A Guarantee. 4v1, The Cruiser Is Boned. 5v1, I Feel Sorry For The Guy.
So Unless You Can Provide Combat Logs, Screen Shots, Anything, You Can't Prove Your Point. And I Don't Need To Prove Mine, Since There Are 2 Years Of Threads, Combat Logs, Screen-shots, Posts, Etc Of Commentary On How Powerful Escorts Are Compared To Every Other Ship Class.
Pfffffft, cruiser heals should be nerfed. It took 3 escorts almost a full minute to knock down some lone fed cruiser drivers shields last night in kerrat.
My main an Engineer flies only Science ships..... I've never felt left behind by escorts....
Engi in a Nebula, here.
You must be flying with some terrible escorts, because even my best runs hardly beat the worst runs of escorts. I can hit 7k raw dps sometimes, but it doesn't compare to the 8-9k dps an escort can pump out while doing just as well at CC as I do. Try again.
@lordmalak: That's because the dev's have constantly buffed healing powers and resists, so of course the tankiest ships in the universe are going to benefit. The problem is that escorts get this buff as well, meaning they can tank better than they should for all content...making a dedicated tank nigh-worthless with a team of escorts who actually know what to do.
All the "cruisers are OK!" posts appear focused on PvP. Even if the three ship types are balanced in PvP, that just means they're balanced in a small minority of content.
In PvE, DPS is rewarded. Cruisers have excess (that is, unnecessary) survivability.
Never having flown a science ship besides the Vesta, I really have no idea how well it does. I flew the Vesta as an escort with a Grav Well 3, and that worked alright.
So you're making a conscious choice about what your priorities are, and how you go about following such priorities. That actually sounds like a good system to me. Personally I use both.
1) Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word in my post?
2) Why (or more accurately, HOW) was I proven wrong? You have provided no evidence other than your word, which after reading a lot of your posts, I equate to nothing more than deluded ramblings.
You know the rules of the net: screen shot or it didn't happen.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
So you're making a conscious choice about what your priorities are, and how you go about following such priorities. That actually sounds like a good system to me. Personally I use both.
The point I was making was that it makes all the sci skills that remain semi-worth having completely useless...
Tractor Beam? AP:O...
Grav well? AP:O...
TBR? AP:O...
The Bortas teleport then death (set combo) thing? AP:O...
3 primary escort weaknesses all rendered completely useless by one skill... And if in realising this you try to get rid of said escort oh look same skill again!
And on top of this they can tank through everything else as per a cruiser (Been there, done that, got the debris field) so there goes that argument...
I refuse to run the borg set because I would rather not die out of skill than be saved by an insta-heal proc and if I do die... So? The other guy was more skilled and/or I made an error.big deal...
But AP:O is simply stupid, its the only word for having 1 skill that removes all the weaknesses of one class (which also happens to be the class with the most ships that are able to equip it), while directly rendering another classes life a complete misery...
1) Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word in my post?
2) Why (or more accurately, HOW) was I proven wrong? You have provided no evidence other than your word, which after reading a lot of your posts, I equate to nothing more than deluded ramblings.
You know the rules of the net: screen shot or it didn't happen.
Its not worth arguing with the guy anymore, he knows he's wrong, he just wont admit he's lost and everyone reading this thread can see that...
Having never seen the phaser lance in action, I have to ask... is the damage that it does really enough to let the Gal-X match a Fleet Defiant decloaking with Attack Pattern Omega, Cannon: Rapid Fire, and all the other buffs a Tac-escort can pull off?
A tactical captain can fly a Galaxy X. So yeah. It can do the same 5 second alpha strike and use the lance and do big damage. In a 5 second alpha strike from decloaking.
It's what both ships can do AFTER that which differentiates them.
Pfffffft, cruiser heals should be nerfed. It took 3 escorts almost a full minute to knock down some lone fed cruiser drivers shields last night in kerrat.
...Seems somebody is doing something right.
No doubt. I see that happen all the time in Kerrat, and not just with Cruisers.
It makes one think that only some know how to defend properly and only some know how to apply DPS properly and all the rest just dont know.
1) Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word in my post?
2) Why (or more accurately, HOW) was I proven wrong? You have provided no evidence other than your word, which after reading a lot of your posts, I equate to nothing more than deluded ramblings.
You know the rules of the net: screen shot or it didn't happen.
the whole thing should be in caps, darn forum. My friend had a very good build yet we ended in tie. I see STF layouts being split half escort half cruiser, or cruiser carrier. All of this proves the idea is wrong.
No doubt. I see that happen all the time in Kerrat, and not just with Cruisers.
It makes one think that only some know how to defend properly and only some know how to apply DPS properly and all the rest just dont know.
Everytime I visit gankland it's a risk, but this cruiser was a sight to behold- shield up, then weak, then up again, and again, and again for almost a minute, well worth the risk of a visit just to watch. I think my gravatic anchor caught me instead because I stopped dead in my tracks and stopped firing as he pranced away with the other 2 escorts on his tail before I could rejoin the fight.
Course I'd forgotten how good the loot drops can be there.
the whole thing should be in caps, darn forum. My friend had a very good build yet we ended in tie. I see STF layouts being split half escort half cruiser, or cruiser carrier. All of this proves the idea is wrong.
Ok... Um... You still didn't answer why my post should have been in caps?
As for your second comment... I really feel sorry for you now. Which can complete an STF faster, 5 escorts or any other ship combo? That's right. 5 escorts. Which combination is more effective at destroying NPCs? 5 escorts or any other ship combo? That's right. 5 escorts.
A varied team will take on average 9-12 minutes to finish an STF (15-17 if Donatra is being a pain). A full 5 tacscort team will take on average 6-8 minutes to finish an STF (10-12 if Donatra is being a pain). I have logs and screenshots of both, and I don't even need to use mine, there are dozens of them already up on the forums.
You bring pugs into this? Allow me to tell you something... the best teams in STFs and PvP aren't bloody pugs. I give absolutely NO craps about pugs. Whatsoever. At all. Pugs are the incompetent regular players with a few diamonds (aka actually good players that for some reason like pugging) that fill this game. You cannot use them to back up an argument simply because most pugs don't have the in-game knowledge needed to be able to do things as best as can be done. So you cannot use them to tell me that cruisers are equal to escorts. Because most pug escorts are terrible, most pug cruisers are worse.
As for your friend and yourself having a good build? You keep on saying this, and we (as in everyone reading your posts, myself included) are still waiting for you to tell us what these "good builds" are. Put up your builds that you and your friend were using, SHOW US THAT THEY AREN'T TERRIBLE (which tbh I am guessing the escort's was), and THEN claim victory. Until then, it's put up, or shut up.
You know the rules. Screen shot or it didn't happen.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Ok... Um... You still didn't answer why my post should have been in caps?
As for your second comment... I really feel sorry for you now. Which can complete an STF faster, 5 escorts or any other ship combo? That's right. 5 escorts. Which combination is more effective at destroying NPCs? 5 escorts or any other ship combo? That's right. 5 escorts.
A varied team will take on average 9-12 minutes to finish an STF (15-17 if Donatra is being a pain). A full 5 tacscort team will take on average 6-8 minutes to finish an STF (10-12 if Donatra is being a pain). I have logs and screenshots of both, and I don't even need to use mine, there are dozens of them already up on the forums.
You bring pugs into this? Allow me to tell you something... the best teams in STFs and PvP aren't bloody pugs. I give absolutely NO craps about pugs. Whatsoever. At all. Pugs are the incompetent regular players with a few diamonds (aka actually good players that for some reason like pugging) that fill this game. You cannot use them to back up an argument simply because most pugs don't have the in-game knowledge needed to be able to do things as best as can be done. So you cannot use them to tell me that cruisers are equal to escorts. Because most pug escorts are terrible, most pug cruisers are worse.
As for your friend and yourself having a good build? You keep on saying this, and we (as in everyone reading your posts, myself included) are still waiting for you to tell us what these "good builds" are. Put up your builds that you and your friend were using, SHOW US THAT THEY AREN'T TERRIBLE (which tbh I am guessing the escort's was), and THEN claim victory. Until then, it's put up, or shut up.
You know the rules. Screen shot or it didn't happen.
I have stated my build on here tons of times. but one last time here.in that duel Star Cruiser, pre S7 borg set minus shield, Covariant sheild. Mk11 borg antiproton beams and turrets, mk 11 quantum torps. Point defense phaser. and various hull armors and sheild bootsers to cover most types. My friend of what I know is MK12 antiproton beams and tuurests, quad cannon I think?, Point defense, Antimatter spread, MVAM Prommie. And note not all of my fleet is on at the same time so I have to pug. ANd the pug teams I see, hybrid escort/cruisers/carriers. Never see and all escort since S& launch. ANd note do to graphics card dying on me can't give you a screen shot nor can I attach one yet on the forum.
I have stated my build on here tons of times. but one last time here.in that duel Star Cruiser, pre S7 borg set minus shield, Covariant sheild. Mk11 borg antiproton beams and turrets, mk 11 quantum torps. Point defense phaser. and various hull armors and sheild bootsers to cover most types. My friend of what I know is MK12 antiproton beams and tuurests, quad cannon I think?, Point defense, Antimatter spread, MVAM Prommie. And note not all of my fleet is on at the same time so I have to pug. ANd the pug teams I see, hybrid escort/cruisers/carriers. Never see and all escort since S& launch. ANd note do to graphics card dying on me can't give you a screen shot nor can I attach one yet on the forum.
Wow. No wonder that ended in a draw. Your build... no comment. Your opponent's build... just... fail... Yeah. Based on what I can see, you cannot make any claims. Fight an actual PvP build, come back and say that.
If you have BOff layouts, that would be nice too. No wonder that ended in a draw. Your opponent doesn't have any of the huge burst damage that most escorts can achieve. Not with that setup. So you have not faced a true face-removing escort. Face a fleet level escort properly equipped, and if you pull that one to a draw, I will commend you recant my statement about anything you say being deluded hot air. However, you will still need screen-shots for proof.
As for pugging? You don't have to pug. Ever heard of any of the STF channels? Hm... what a novel concept.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I'm a balanced build. More than one person has commented on my ablility to last. For it's not the build alone it's the skill. and Make fun of that build if you want but it works and well. Only one person has ever decidedly beat me without contest was a guy in a breen ship with a very good build and the knowhow to use it.
The point I was making was that it makes all the sci skills that remain semi-worth having completely useless...
Hm, I understand now. You're looking at it from a PvP perspective this time.
I gave up on PvP on any Cryptic game a long time ago. I PvP now and then but I understand that its just something that exists because at release Cryptic needed features to list on the sale boxes and is just a vestige from more hopeful times.
The unbelievably resilient PvP crowd has managed to keep some semblance of PvP alive through sheer force of will and a few sympathetic ears at Cryptic; my own experiences with CO have taught me that PvP is the last thing Cryptic Management wants to do in their games and therefore PvP is ultimately doomed in any tittle released by Cryptic.
Their own recent actions make it more than clear that even this new Cryptic that has "doubled" the STO dev team is still not even bothering to consider balance in their push to get players on the latest grinds and items for sale. On another thread it was mentioned that some Rom boffs are getting a defensive buff... clearly an effort to make climbing up the Embassy rep more attractive, just like the Kumari's mold breaking weapon setup. Expect more of this sooner rather than later.
I try to stay away from these things but i think people just love to argue.
Anyhow, i don't understand why or what people are complaining about. This is op that is op... nothing is op we all made our choices. Before we started this game if you were smart you could have easily read the forums and found out what you were in for. If you chose FED or KDF your faith was sealed. If you chose Sci, Eng, tac, your faith was sealed, if you fly sci, cruiser, escort, you faith was sealed.
You knew what you were getting, it was not like it was a surprise, you knew or you had no interest in finding out. Guys op arguments is always about PVP if you are not pvping then why the heck does it matter? And if you do pvp then you know in one on one unless the person is more talented then you or has a better build or generally just an elite you stand a chance in any battle with any ship.
"I'm tired of seeing escorts." Well close your god dam eyes. I see these bulbous cruisers flying around taking up space and moving like their flying Mrs. Daisy and you do not see me complaining. I zoom by, giving them the finger and put it on all hailing frequencies and keep it moving. You can' tell someone else what to do to fit your model of what you think YOUR version of Star Trek is, canon or not, this is not yours, your mothers, your brothers, our sisters or your fathers star trek, this is fan fiction star trek. How do you have the nerve to tell a writer what to write? if that was the case then captain, you would be a tactical officer. I did not ever see any other types of captains leading ships other then tacs... problem solved everyone become tacs! If you don't want to be a tac, then get on a console and refer to someone else as captain.
There is only one skill, one skill that each class has that you cannot have. All the rest all the rest everyone else can have. So whats the point with all this complaining? Ask someone to train your boffs and bam, problem solved, on to the next one.
You can't buff cruisers, because all you will see is cruisers, you can't buff scis because all you will see is scis. And speaking of buffing, have you fought any of these classes in one on one pvp action? If anything escorts get it handed to them or it's a draw.
I hate discussions like these because they are self serving and who the heck elects the people who say they speak for the community? No you don't you speak for yourself. YOU want this, YOU need this, everyone is just wants to play and live it up in their minds as stars of their own tv show.
An escort is just a SHIP, a small maneuverable ship with 15.... can i bold that 15!+ weapons, that's nothing! I can remake 15+ in a heartbeat, hell i have 15+ everything on my ship atm so i am a sci and a cruiser all in one handy dandy little CAPTAIN AND CREW not SHIP!
"It speed Tanks" Of course it's going to out maneuver the big guns, of course torps are going to miss and so are beams, it's moving at 24+ parsecs, that ***** is zooming. It's working the way it should.
If it's pve it does not matter, you can throw soggy teady bears and used socks at an enemy and it will die eventually in pve, but in pvp you're talking a whole other level of nasty ad escorts are not king. some sci ships can do it and cruisers... well... hmm... sucks that you are that slow... maybe evasive captain might help.
Now as i wrap this up because i would like some milk and cookies atm to wash away the sadness of reading this entire thread with red mards on my forehead from all the face palming I will say this. You guys are shooting the messenger, you're yelling hang the beast kill the beast at the horse and letting the horseman walk away scotch free. These captains took DHC's and ran with it, it's not the ships fault or the classes fault this was the captains choice as you have your choice as well. There is no justification for scis (well maybe scis since them TRIBBLE are fruit loops) To make more damage then a tac or even to be better, technically you should be on someones ship not running it. So unless they rebuff beams then let it go. It's sooo easy and watch how fast escorts vanish, it's an easy fix. Buff beams and escorts die out. That is what we want right? For our choices to matter more then the choices others made. We don't care if they are unhappy or not we only care about our own happiness since no one buys ships but you. No one makes builds but you, no one has buyers remorse but you. So self serving.
Oh and one last thing. This is Rome boys and girls. Not Sparta, not America, not even earth. If you cannot beat it, then you join it, if you don't want to join it then you have to take a number and go to the back of the class and sit quietly. Because in the end you made your choices knowing full well what you were in store for and now you want to change the world so that your choices aren't as bad as you thought they would be. Tough apples kids. You were a poor life planner and thus this is the life you have. Congrats. Cryptic will not change their ways. To them they do not have to spend man hours and money for you to make another character to fit the needs you want. To them the fix is easy. You need to make another character and shut the hell up. Thats how they feel, because that's how i feel.
I'm a balanced build. More than one person has commented on my ablility to last. For it's not the build alone it's the skill. and Make fun of that build if you want but it works and well. Only one person has ever decidedly beat me without contest was a guy in a breen ship with a very good build and the knowhow to use it.
I never said anything was wrong with your build. Your escort opponent though, that's an entirely different story. There is no excuse for the level of fail I saw in that build. It's no wonder you think the way you do if that's what you're constantly up against. And I feel sorry that you haven't been exposed to the true power available to escorts. Therefore in your limited experience, escorts are not overpowered. However I again challenge you to take your cruiser and fight a properly built and specced escort.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
If anything escorts get it handed to them or it's a draw.
My Tac/scort would beg to differ...
"It speed Tanks" Of course it's going to out maneuver the big guns, of course torps are going to miss and so are beams, it's moving at 24+ parsecs, that ***** is zooming. It's working the way it should.
Who needs to speed tank when you have Emergency power to shields?
If you want proof feel free to throw me a message @adamkafei I'd be happy to prove my points
Aaaaand you've missed the point. If science and engineering were worthwhile to have on a consistent basis, of course you'd see more--that's because they're no longer worthless! Honestly, no one is asking for science ships or cruisers to be ridiculous, but the power creep has allowed escorts to take the place of both in most aspects. I ignore Hive, because not only do most people not run it, it is an anomaly in regards to the rest of the game.
So let's run through this slowly, and hope you don't decide to write up another wall of text insulting everyone in the thread.
Escorts should be limited by their ability to counter CC and long-term damage. This means low hull and shield heals, including resists. Speed is there for a reason, and there should be a choice, like that in cruisers and sci's, between utility and damage. Currently, a damage-increasing skill acts as an anti-CC and tanking ability, thereby rending all the T3 abilities used by cruiser and sci's useless. Between passive reputation and set procs, escorts are able to withstand much more long-term damage than they should. But this is pvp, and since Cryptic doesn't care about pvp, let's focus on pve.
Everything is about damage, and when it stops being about damage for a few seconds, escorts can step in with universal consoles or low-lvl science powers to delay/debuff the enemy. But after seeing a Kumari face-melt a cube in seconds, it's a little hard to see why a science or cruiser is even wanted in an STF. Enemies need to be much harder, and I'd say all ESTFs should have tac cubes and elite enemies...on top of an AI ability overhaul.
This, of course, ignores the ability for tac captains to fly science vessels better than anyone due to Cryptic's sheer incompetence at allowing them to buff science power damage. It also ignores that all the claims of making high-powered cruisers requires a tac captain's touch, while not losing much in the way of tanking. There has been an insane amount of power creep in this game, rendering any previous balance redundant. This is the problem, and damn straight I'm going to complain about it. I hardly play the game anymore, and the Kumari debacle didn't help. People whined and complained about weak consoles, which was changed in a matter of days. There is a whole slew of Fed and KDF consoles in the CStore that are broken beyond belief, but we just get crickets.
I never said anything was wrong with your build. Your escort opponent though, that's an entirely different story. There is no excuse for the level of fail I saw in that build. It's no wonder you think the way you do if that's what you're constantly up against. And I feel sorry that you haven't been exposed to the true power available to escorts. Therefore in your limited experience, escorts are not overpowered. However I again challenge you to take your cruiser and fight a properly built and specced escort.
ok heres an idea ...just throwing it out there if the problems are so jacked up why not do what they did in guild wars? make a guild wars 2 with les problems? is it time for a STO2?
ok heres an idea ...just throwing it out there if the problems are so jacked up why not do what they did in guild wars? make a guild wars 2 with les problems? is it time for a STO2?
Cryptic is a small company. And most of its development resources are already being used to create Neverwinter Online. It's not all that likely they'll get the licensing, chance or have the money to make a sequel to Star Trek Online anytime soon.
Im sorry but you guys are blaming the ship / captain class. Look at your builds first. My fleet has sci's in sci ships that pull 11k dps in stfs. We have engineers in cruisers that pull 10k. We have escorts that break 13k. Ok yeah its higher. But at that level does it even matter? Were talking about a group of blended classes and ships that regularly knocks out infected elite in 4-5 minutes. We generally are under 1/3 of the time the optional gives you.
If you say sci's and eng's captains and ships are TRIBBLE its because YOU arent using them correctly.
To many people put the blame of their inadequate builds on their ships and class they chose. Im sorry but its the build pure and simple. Yes you probably wont get 11k out of an intrepid but you wont get 13k out of a patrol escort either. Each ship has its limitations and advantages and for sure some are better than others but each class and each ship type has its stand outs. Maybe put the work in and stop complaining that YOU cant do what someone else is.
Ive probably respeced my captain 20 times to get the build that I run now. I change the boff skills weekly looking for an edge. Ive put the time in to get where Im at and Im sick to death of people complaining that as soon as they hit level 50 that someone else is OP.
Read this post and you can start to see just how little your ship or gear means. Learn to spend your captain points properly and set up your boffs properly. Then get gear that synergizes with what you have.
Read this post and you can start to see just how little your ship or gear means. Learn to spend your captain points properly and set up your boffs properly. Then get gear that synergizes with what you have.
I'm sorry but your use of a carrier invalidates your solo-ing of ISE as an argument when discussing Fed cruisers... do the same in a fed cruiser and I will acknowledge your point.
I think what is being missed is that it is not entire classes of ships that are unbalanced, it's particular console and BOff layouts of ships across the ship classes, on top of the minor differences in hull and shield strength that are normal variables from ship to ship. Exacerbating this is the lack of Engineering and Science consoles that truly boost damage (there really isn't anything wrong with the game lacking the so-called MMO Holy Trinity--if every class is self-reliant in different ways, it's a win for everyone).
For instance, the Jem'Hadar Bug just so happens to have an excellent console and BOff layout on top of solid (for an Escort) hull strength. There's no real downside to the ship. Compare that to the poor Aquarius, which doesn't seem to have an upside (other than it kinda looks neat).
Similarly, some well-built Cruisers (I for one really enjoy the way I've built my Assault Cruiser Refit, and will even more when I get my Fleet version) benefit from their particular combinations of layouts compared to others (such as the Refit Galaxy). However, this is only really because there are no consoles that fit into Engineering or Science slots that make a large impact on damage production.
The same goes for Science ships. Hands down, my Vesta (Tactical) is the most damaging Science ship I've ever flown, and alongside the Wells, there aren't really any reasons to fly other Science ships beyond aesthetics or personal challenge.
The imbalances in this game aren't class wide, but make themselves most known with particular ships within each class: there is really only one real problem with balancing ships:
Consoles.
Tactical consoles are far and away more useful to have in abundance/i] than Engineering or (and especially) Science consoles. While having a few consoles to boost shields and BOff powers do have an impact, it is much smaller than loading on a bunch of matching Tactical consoles for your chosen damage type. Why? Because of the stated self-reliance of all classes of ships. When all ships can be self-reliant to a certain threshold of survivability (defense), then deciding factor is offense. While this may inherently seem to give only Escorts an advantage, that's not necessarily true. It only gives Escorts that meet this threshold of survivability, yet have the ability to expand upon their offense an advantage. The same goes for Cruisers and Science vessels. However, Cruisers and Science vessels often have less of an ability to expand upon their offense due to usually having a smaller number of Tactical consoles and nothing more.
For a Cruiser or Science vessel to be able to build up enough damage, they have to be able to stack damage bonuses on top of their class-specific bonuses (Cruisers have their large number of weapon slots, as well as an overall power boost, Science ships mainly have their ability to debuff enemies on top of their slow-gaining single-target Sensor Analysis buff). Barring all console boosts, Escorts, Cruisers, and Science ships really only run a gamut of burst versus sustained damage, none of which is particularly overwhelming.
What players have learned are some of the vitals of what makes a good build, and one unwritten law is to grab 3 or more Tactical consoles that boost the primary damage type of your ship. While this is trivial for any Escort to do, Most Cruisers and Science Vessels are lucky to have 3 Tactical slots total. Many only have 2.
One of the simplest ways to give back some balance across ships is to have consoles in all categories that boost damage. The only downside to this is that will give very little reason for any ships to use any consoles beyond a very small set (assuming all players want to min/max for damage).
One more possible suggestion only affects Science vessels: I think Aux power should affect Sensor Analysis, not so much in the total buff it provides, but in how quickly the curve ramps up (it is a currently linear 3.33% maxing out at 33.3%). This is to help counter the fact that the other Science inherent ability of Subsystem Targetting does little to improve overall damage.
Comments
My main an Engineer flies only Science ships..... I've never felt left behind by escorts....
Once Again Proven Wrong
My engi cruiser uses AP:O, if its so good why doesn't yours?
...Seems somebody is doing something right.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I could but I find AP:B is better for DPS...
Engi in a Nebula, here.
You must be flying with some terrible escorts, because even my best runs hardly beat the worst runs of escorts. I can hit 7k raw dps sometimes, but it doesn't compare to the 8-9k dps an escort can pump out while doing just as well at CC as I do. Try again.
@lordmalak: That's because the dev's have constantly buffed healing powers and resists, so of course the tankiest ships in the universe are going to benefit. The problem is that escorts get this buff as well, meaning they can tank better than they should for all content...making a dedicated tank nigh-worthless with a team of escorts who actually know what to do.
In PvE, DPS is rewarded. Cruisers have excess (that is, unnecessary) survivability.
Never having flown a science ship besides the Vesta, I really have no idea how well it does. I flew the Vesta as an escort with a Grav Well 3, and that worked alright.
So you're making a conscious choice about what your priorities are, and how you go about following such priorities. That actually sounds like a good system to me. Personally I use both.
Two questions.
1) Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word in my post?
2) Why (or more accurately, HOW) was I proven wrong? You have provided no evidence other than your word, which after reading a lot of your posts, I equate to nothing more than deluded ramblings.
You know the rules of the net: screen shot or it didn't happen.
The point I was making was that it makes all the sci skills that remain semi-worth having completely useless...
Tractor Beam? AP:O...
Grav well? AP:O...
TBR? AP:O...
The Bortas teleport then death (set combo) thing? AP:O...
3 primary escort weaknesses all rendered completely useless by one skill... And if in realising this you try to get rid of said escort oh look same skill again!
And on top of this they can tank through everything else as per a cruiser (Been there, done that, got the debris field) so there goes that argument...
I refuse to run the borg set because I would rather not die out of skill than be saved by an insta-heal proc and if I do die... So? The other guy was more skilled and/or I made an error.big deal...
But AP:O is simply stupid, its the only word for having 1 skill that removes all the weaknesses of one class (which also happens to be the class with the most ships that are able to equip it), while directly rendering another classes life a complete misery...
Its not worth arguing with the guy anymore, he knows he's wrong, he just wont admit he's lost and everyone reading this thread can see that...
A tactical captain can fly a Galaxy X. So yeah. It can do the same 5 second alpha strike and use the lance and do big damage. In a 5 second alpha strike from decloaking.
It's what both ships can do AFTER that which differentiates them.
No doubt. I see that happen all the time in Kerrat, and not just with Cruisers.
It makes one think that only some know how to defend properly and only some know how to apply DPS properly and all the rest just dont know.
R.I.P
the whole thing should be in caps, darn forum. My friend had a very good build yet we ended in tie. I see STF layouts being split half escort half cruiser, or cruiser carrier. All of this proves the idea is wrong.
Everytime I visit gankland it's a risk, but this cruiser was a sight to behold- shield up, then weak, then up again, and again, and again for almost a minute, well worth the risk of a visit just to watch. I think my gravatic anchor caught me instead because I stopped dead in my tracks and stopped firing as he pranced away with the other 2 escorts on his tail before I could rejoin the fight.
Course I'd forgotten how good the loot drops can be there.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Ok... Um... You still didn't answer why my post should have been in caps?
As for your second comment... I really feel sorry for you now. Which can complete an STF faster, 5 escorts or any other ship combo? That's right. 5 escorts. Which combination is more effective at destroying NPCs? 5 escorts or any other ship combo? That's right. 5 escorts.
A varied team will take on average 9-12 minutes to finish an STF (15-17 if Donatra is being a pain). A full 5 tacscort team will take on average 6-8 minutes to finish an STF (10-12 if Donatra is being a pain). I have logs and screenshots of both, and I don't even need to use mine, there are dozens of them already up on the forums.
You bring pugs into this? Allow me to tell you something... the best teams in STFs and PvP aren't bloody pugs. I give absolutely NO craps about pugs. Whatsoever. At all. Pugs are the incompetent regular players with a few diamonds (aka actually good players that for some reason like pugging) that fill this game. You cannot use them to back up an argument simply because most pugs don't have the in-game knowledge needed to be able to do things as best as can be done. So you cannot use them to tell me that cruisers are equal to escorts. Because most pug escorts are terrible, most pug cruisers are worse.
As for your friend and yourself having a good build? You keep on saying this, and we (as in everyone reading your posts, myself included) are still waiting for you to tell us what these "good builds" are. Put up your builds that you and your friend were using, SHOW US THAT THEY AREN'T TERRIBLE (which tbh I am guessing the escort's was), and THEN claim victory. Until then, it's put up, or shut up.
You know the rules. Screen shot or it didn't happen.
I have stated my build on here tons of times. but one last time here.in that duel Star Cruiser, pre S7 borg set minus shield, Covariant sheild. Mk11 borg antiproton beams and turrets, mk 11 quantum torps. Point defense phaser. and various hull armors and sheild bootsers to cover most types. My friend of what I know is MK12 antiproton beams and tuurests, quad cannon I think?, Point defense, Antimatter spread, MVAM Prommie. And note not all of my fleet is on at the same time so I have to pug. ANd the pug teams I see, hybrid escort/cruisers/carriers. Never see and all escort since S& launch. ANd note do to graphics card dying on me can't give you a screen shot nor can I attach one yet on the forum.
Wow. No wonder that ended in a draw. Your build... no comment. Your opponent's build... just... fail... Yeah. Based on what I can see, you cannot make any claims. Fight an actual PvP build, come back and say that.
If you have BOff layouts, that would be nice too. No wonder that ended in a draw. Your opponent doesn't have any of the huge burst damage that most escorts can achieve. Not with that setup. So you have not faced a true face-removing escort. Face a fleet level escort properly equipped, and if you pull that one to a draw, I will commend you recant my statement about anything you say being deluded hot air. However, you will still need screen-shots for proof.
As for pugging? You don't have to pug. Ever heard of any of the STF channels? Hm... what a novel concept.
Hm, I understand now. You're looking at it from a PvP perspective this time.
I gave up on PvP on any Cryptic game a long time ago. I PvP now and then but I understand that its just something that exists because at release Cryptic needed features to list on the sale boxes and is just a vestige from more hopeful times.
The unbelievably resilient PvP crowd has managed to keep some semblance of PvP alive through sheer force of will and a few sympathetic ears at Cryptic; my own experiences with CO have taught me that PvP is the last thing Cryptic Management wants to do in their games and therefore PvP is ultimately doomed in any tittle released by Cryptic.
Their own recent actions make it more than clear that even this new Cryptic that has "doubled" the STO dev team is still not even bothering to consider balance in their push to get players on the latest grinds and items for sale. On another thread it was mentioned that some Rom boffs are getting a defensive buff... clearly an effort to make climbing up the Embassy rep more attractive, just like the Kumari's mold breaking weapon setup. Expect more of this sooner rather than later.
Anyhow, i don't understand why or what people are complaining about. This is op that is op... nothing is op we all made our choices. Before we started this game if you were smart you could have easily read the forums and found out what you were in for. If you chose FED or KDF your faith was sealed. If you chose Sci, Eng, tac, your faith was sealed, if you fly sci, cruiser, escort, you faith was sealed.
You knew what you were getting, it was not like it was a surprise, you knew or you had no interest in finding out. Guys op arguments is always about PVP if you are not pvping then why the heck does it matter? And if you do pvp then you know in one on one unless the person is more talented then you or has a better build or generally just an elite you stand a chance in any battle with any ship.
"I'm tired of seeing escorts." Well close your god dam eyes. I see these bulbous cruisers flying around taking up space and moving like their flying Mrs. Daisy and you do not see me complaining. I zoom by, giving them the finger and put it on all hailing frequencies and keep it moving. You can' tell someone else what to do to fit your model of what you think YOUR version of Star Trek is, canon or not, this is not yours, your mothers, your brothers, our sisters or your fathers star trek, this is fan fiction star trek. How do you have the nerve to tell a writer what to write? if that was the case then captain, you would be a tactical officer. I did not ever see any other types of captains leading ships other then tacs... problem solved everyone become tacs! If you don't want to be a tac, then get on a console and refer to someone else as captain.
There is only one skill, one skill that each class has that you cannot have. All the rest all the rest everyone else can have. So whats the point with all this complaining? Ask someone to train your boffs and bam, problem solved, on to the next one.
You can't buff cruisers, because all you will see is cruisers, you can't buff scis because all you will see is scis. And speaking of buffing, have you fought any of these classes in one on one pvp action? If anything escorts get it handed to them or it's a draw.
I hate discussions like these because they are self serving and who the heck elects the people who say they speak for the community? No you don't you speak for yourself. YOU want this, YOU need this, everyone is just wants to play and live it up in their minds as stars of their own tv show.
An escort is just a SHIP, a small maneuverable ship with 15.... can i bold that 15!+ weapons, that's nothing! I can remake 15+ in a heartbeat, hell i have 15+ everything on my ship atm so i am a sci and a cruiser all in one handy dandy little CAPTAIN AND CREW not SHIP!
"It speed Tanks" Of course it's going to out maneuver the big guns, of course torps are going to miss and so are beams, it's moving at 24+ parsecs, that ***** is zooming. It's working the way it should.
If it's pve it does not matter, you can throw soggy teady bears and used socks at an enemy and it will die eventually in pve, but in pvp you're talking a whole other level of nasty ad escorts are not king. some sci ships can do it and cruisers... well... hmm... sucks that you are that slow... maybe evasive captain might help.
Now as i wrap this up because i would like some milk and cookies atm to wash away the sadness of reading this entire thread with red mards on my forehead from all the face palming I will say this. You guys are shooting the messenger, you're yelling hang the beast kill the beast at the horse and letting the horseman walk away scotch free. These captains took DHC's and ran with it, it's not the ships fault or the classes fault this was the captains choice as you have your choice as well. There is no justification for scis (well maybe scis since them TRIBBLE are fruit loops) To make more damage then a tac or even to be better, technically you should be on someones ship not running it. So unless they rebuff beams then let it go. It's sooo easy and watch how fast escorts vanish, it's an easy fix. Buff beams and escorts die out. That is what we want right? For our choices to matter more then the choices others made. We don't care if they are unhappy or not we only care about our own happiness since no one buys ships but you. No one makes builds but you, no one has buyers remorse but you. So self serving.
Oh and one last thing. This is Rome boys and girls. Not Sparta, not America, not even earth. If you cannot beat it, then you join it, if you don't want to join it then you have to take a number and go to the back of the class and sit quietly. Because in the end you made your choices knowing full well what you were in store for and now you want to change the world so that your choices aren't as bad as you thought they would be. Tough apples kids. You were a poor life planner and thus this is the life you have. Congrats. Cryptic will not change their ways. To them they do not have to spend man hours and money for you to make another character to fit the needs you want. To them the fix is easy. You need to make another character and shut the hell up. Thats how they feel, because that's how i feel.
I never said anything was wrong with your build. Your escort opponent though, that's an entirely different story. There is no excuse for the level of fail I saw in that build. It's no wonder you think the way you do if that's what you're constantly up against. And I feel sorry that you haven't been exposed to the true power available to escorts. Therefore in your limited experience, escorts are not overpowered. However I again challenge you to take your cruiser and fight a properly built and specced escort.
My Tac/scort would beg to differ...
Who needs to speed tank when you have Emergency power to shields?
If you want proof feel free to throw me a message @adamkafei I'd be happy to prove my points
Aaaaand you've missed the point. If science and engineering were worthwhile to have on a consistent basis, of course you'd see more--that's because they're no longer worthless! Honestly, no one is asking for science ships or cruisers to be ridiculous, but the power creep has allowed escorts to take the place of both in most aspects. I ignore Hive, because not only do most people not run it, it is an anomaly in regards to the rest of the game.
So let's run through this slowly, and hope you don't decide to write up another wall of text insulting everyone in the thread.
Escorts should be limited by their ability to counter CC and long-term damage. This means low hull and shield heals, including resists. Speed is there for a reason, and there should be a choice, like that in cruisers and sci's, between utility and damage. Currently, a damage-increasing skill acts as an anti-CC and tanking ability, thereby rending all the T3 abilities used by cruiser and sci's useless. Between passive reputation and set procs, escorts are able to withstand much more long-term damage than they should. But this is pvp, and since Cryptic doesn't care about pvp, let's focus on pve.
Everything is about damage, and when it stops being about damage for a few seconds, escorts can step in with universal consoles or low-lvl science powers to delay/debuff the enemy. But after seeing a Kumari face-melt a cube in seconds, it's a little hard to see why a science or cruiser is even wanted in an STF. Enemies need to be much harder, and I'd say all ESTFs should have tac cubes and elite enemies...on top of an AI ability overhaul.
This, of course, ignores the ability for tac captains to fly science vessels better than anyone due to Cryptic's sheer incompetence at allowing them to buff science power damage. It also ignores that all the claims of making high-powered cruisers requires a tac captain's touch, while not losing much in the way of tanking. There has been an insane amount of power creep in this game, rendering any previous balance redundant. This is the problem, and damn straight I'm going to complain about it. I hardly play the game anymore, and the Kumari debacle didn't help. People whined and complained about weak consoles, which was changed in a matter of days. There is a whole slew of Fed and KDF consoles in the CStore that are broken beyond belief, but we just get crickets.
AS I said I don't know his full build off hand
Cryptic is a small company. And most of its development resources are already being used to create Neverwinter Online. It's not all that likely they'll get the licensing, chance or have the money to make a sequel to Star Trek Online anytime soon.
If you say sci's and eng's captains and ships are TRIBBLE its because YOU arent using them correctly.
To many people put the blame of their inadequate builds on their ships and class they chose. Im sorry but its the build pure and simple. Yes you probably wont get 11k out of an intrepid but you wont get 13k out of a patrol escort either. Each ship has its limitations and advantages and for sure some are better than others but each class and each ship type has its stand outs. Maybe put the work in and stop complaining that YOU cant do what someone else is.
Ive probably respeced my captain 20 times to get the build that I run now. I change the boff skills weekly looking for an edge. Ive put the time in to get where Im at and Im sick to death of people complaining that as soon as they hit level 50 that someone else is OP.
Read this post and you can start to see just how little your ship or gear means. Learn to spend your captain points properly and set up your boffs properly. Then get gear that synergizes with what you have.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=7873921#post7873921
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
I'm sorry but your use of a carrier invalidates your solo-ing of ISE as an argument when discussing Fed cruisers... do the same in a fed cruiser and I will acknowledge your point.
For instance, the Jem'Hadar Bug just so happens to have an excellent console and BOff layout on top of solid (for an Escort) hull strength. There's no real downside to the ship. Compare that to the poor Aquarius, which doesn't seem to have an upside (other than it kinda looks neat).
Similarly, some well-built Cruisers (I for one really enjoy the way I've built my Assault Cruiser Refit, and will even more when I get my Fleet version) benefit from their particular combinations of layouts compared to others (such as the Refit Galaxy). However, this is only really because there are no consoles that fit into Engineering or Science slots that make a large impact on damage production.
The same goes for Science ships. Hands down, my Vesta (Tactical) is the most damaging Science ship I've ever flown, and alongside the Wells, there aren't really any reasons to fly other Science ships beyond aesthetics or personal challenge.
The imbalances in this game aren't class wide, but make themselves most known with particular ships within each class: there is really only one real problem with balancing ships:
Consoles.
Tactical consoles are far and away more useful to have in abundance/i] than Engineering or (and especially) Science consoles. While having a few consoles to boost shields and BOff powers do have an impact, it is much smaller than loading on a bunch of matching Tactical consoles for your chosen damage type. Why? Because of the stated self-reliance of all classes of ships. When all ships can be self-reliant to a certain threshold of survivability (defense), then deciding factor is offense. While this may inherently seem to give only Escorts an advantage, that's not necessarily true. It only gives Escorts that meet this threshold of survivability, yet have the ability to expand upon their offense an advantage. The same goes for Cruisers and Science vessels. However, Cruisers and Science vessels often have less of an ability to expand upon their offense due to usually having a smaller number of Tactical consoles and nothing more.
For a Cruiser or Science vessel to be able to build up enough damage, they have to be able to stack damage bonuses on top of their class-specific bonuses (Cruisers have their large number of weapon slots, as well as an overall power boost, Science ships mainly have their ability to debuff enemies on top of their slow-gaining single-target Sensor Analysis buff). Barring all console boosts, Escorts, Cruisers, and Science ships really only run a gamut of burst versus sustained damage, none of which is particularly overwhelming.
What players have learned are some of the vitals of what makes a good build, and one unwritten law is to grab 3 or more Tactical consoles that boost the primary damage type of your ship. While this is trivial for any Escort to do, Most Cruisers and Science Vessels are lucky to have 3 Tactical slots total. Many only have 2.
One of the simplest ways to give back some balance across ships is to have consoles in all categories that boost damage. The only downside to this is that will give very little reason for any ships to use any consoles beyond a very small set (assuming all players want to min/max for damage).
One more possible suggestion only affects Science vessels: I think Aux power should affect Sensor Analysis, not so much in the total buff it provides, but in how quickly the curve ramps up (it is a currently linear 3.33% maxing out at 33.3%). This is to help counter the fact that the other Science inherent ability of Subsystem Targetting does little to improve overall damage.