Jumpin' right in, because, eh, something needed to be said.
Except the escorts are smaller ships to a varying extent, so they don't need all that crew. And if you want to get squiggly, your cruisers and science ships are carting around the botanists and Wesleys escorts wouldn't have by nature.
No, healing and regen isn't the problem. A Defiant-R having three-quarters of the HP of an Odyssey despite all but being able to fit in a Galaxy's hangar, that's another story.
Patrol Escorts? A Dervish has a deflector to rival the 1701-E. MVAEs? Akiras? Much much smaller? Really?
Because Patrol Escorts and MVAEs are big enough to rival the Intrepid, and the Akira and Armitage are as big as a flippin' Excelsior. Defiants, Sabers, and Jem Bugs, sure, but the rest of us aren't that dinky here.
Of course we're not. I can't throw a rock off my bridge without hitting a Sovreign, Odyssey, Ambassador, or even a Star Cruiser.
But to your point, 20% hull and 15% shields sounds about right depending on the escort. For game balance or whatever, now you have Defiants as tough as Akiras. No it doesn't make much sense but that's not my call.
And whatever did need have to do with anything? Shouldn't I be able to fly whatever I want instead of having to rummage around my ship list because dammit we need heals for this run?
And this is why I jumped into the thread:
Congratulations on simultaneously mind-reading and insulting every other cruiser pilot in the game. Well done, and I'll leave it at that.
Tanking is useless? The old saying goes 'sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't'. Sometimes I feel like flying around blowing stuff up off the seat of my pants, sometimes I want to trade DPS for added survivability. Roles? Who cares, I leave that stuff for the folks in Azeroth and the crazy dance moves their devs force them to do at endgame.
ESTFs, sure, I can see it, maybe, but roles and synergy and what have you went away when Cryptic realized they can make more money selling you on being the starship captain you always wanted to be and not the one the task force forces you to be.
OK, I'll bite: Why do you want to feel 'neccessary' and 'needed'?
You called cruisers 'gimped' and effectively insulted every other captain flying one, I'm going to flag you on the 'objectively' comment.
All this is moot. The escort bias is obvious and silly currently. Look at just game design, i.e. DPS to rule them all.
Devs love and actively play escorts. The game is designed to enhance escorts and tac captains.
Dstahl is famous for saying that he feels escorts are more fun and thus get more attention. It is unlikely to change anytime soon since the escort bias is from the top down at Cryptic.
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Also, I am perfectly fine with not nerfing escort. But Sci and Cruiser ships should be able to kill things quickly and efficiently. Just saying.
Amen.
Echoing what others have said, changing science damage to exotic once more would do wonders for the balance in this game. True, tactical captains should do the most damage, but why would they have more intimate knowledge of utilizing exotic particles than other captains? If anything, sensor scan should give a defensive reduction to exotic particle damage, allowing a nice spike damage from science captains, whilst still giving science ships a nice boost in science skill damage (by giving the same modifier to sci ships).
Look, this debate is really centered around one thing: do you trust the devs to balance back a single class, or properly balance all three? Seeing as how forums, by their very nature, are incredibly pessimistic, of course the arguments will center around nerfing a single entity. Nevermind that cruisers are tanking for a game that doesn't need them, and science ships are CC'ing without actually doing anything of the sort. Gravity Well III might do well enough for the AI, but it won't make even a lumbering cruiser worry about escaping its well.
It's not about escorts doing insane damage, nor their ability now to tank enough to warrant a cruiser captain from trading up for an escort, really; it's about the other classes no longer having a proper niche in the game. Yes, they excel enough to not be a drag on their team ( I know, I fly a 6k dps Nebula as an engi cpt), but you're not really going to counter the sheer face-melting dps of an all-escort team. I've flown with a few phenomenal Kumari captains, and I'd rather not see the dps a full team of them can pump out.
This game is supposedly about rock, paper, scissors. Unfortunately, the rock is Mount Everest, the paper is a 6000-yr old papyrus scroll, and the scissors have been purposefully rusted and dulled from contributing anything outside of the occasional metal splinter. It is impossible to point to a single item that needs to be fixed, as the entire system is horrendously broken. So really, it's only natural for paper and scissors to point to the rock and ask for it to be demo'd down to a balanced state. As Cryptic has proven time and again, it's much easier to blow something up than to make things effective.
Failnaught please I can do the same thing toa tac as well so guess what. YOU'RE WRONG!
*sigh*
You remind me of the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz. If only you had a brain.
I can guarantee you your Dreadnaught cannot and will not kill my tac with ease. My chel'gret could probably demolish you pretty easily, as can my Fleet Defiant. Ok, not easily, but you won't be able to destroy them with a cannon dread, simply because you'd need to keep them in your firing arc, which I can tell you right now is very difficult at best. Sorry. And you still have as of yet to provide a single point of proof to ANY statement you have made. I really only see hot air. You know the rule with the internet: screen shot or it never happened.
Sorry for the snip, but your comment was rather long, and I really didn't need to respond to every point you made, albeit some of them being quite good.
Basically it boils down to the fact that a lot of other ship classes really aren't needed in current in game content outside of PvP (which I am sorry to say is sorely lackluster in this game... oh wells). End game PvE, other than NWS and VERY limited parts of SBFD, only require huge amounts of DPS to win. Which basically means escorts (and a few VERY specific ships and builds if you go outside that class).
The whole point of my argument was simply that a reduction in the heal ability of escorts wouldn't destroy the game. It would actually cause an increase in need for healing and support classes. Because as is, an escort can tank virtually ALL end-game NPCs with almost stupid ease (TT1, EPtS1, HE1, TSS2, Aux2SIF1 are all you need, and ALL of those are Lt or lower abilities).
I have a fleet patrol escort that doesn't die against even Tac Cubes and gateways... from point blank. Ever. Reason being? It has 5 heals on it. Only 2 share a cooldown, and I leave the rest to it's shields, high hull, and 4 armor consoles. And it uses those abilities I listed above, and it just doesn't die. I really don't even need any cross healing. And if I ever get in danger of getting destroyed, I just hit EM3, and get clear until a heal comes off CD. I don't need ANY other ship classes if a basic fleet level escort can do that. And if you ask me, that's just wrong.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I used to tank everything in my Oddy, but when I took the game seriously and looked at the numbers, I switched to an escort.
I still just park 2.5km from a tac cube and tank it. I can't tank Gateways easily anymore - when I have to solo one I end up popping all my cooldowns at least once, and there's roughly a 25% chance I'll have to retreat because it's not dying fast enough. The only thing I've really lost is the ability to shrug off the lances in HSE. (Now I die instead of get seriously hurt.)
I'm far more effective though, and can now carry STFs. In KSE there's no risk Probes can get through me, and I can take out an entire side by myself. In CSE a wave of 3 Raptors in inconsequential, and the wave of 3 Negh'vars die in about 20 seconds. In ISE I can bring a transformer from 100% to 0% by myself before nanites arrive.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again:
Within a trinity system, the way the tanks and glass cannons balance out is that the tank has steady damage throughout a combat, and never needs to stop dealing damage. The glass cannon does more damage, but can't always deal that damage (retreat or die). As a result, the overall damage during combat is the same.
For example, the Tank does 100 dps (on target) and a Glass Cannon does 200 dps (on target), but the Tank is on target all the time while the Glass Cannon has to retreat half the time, so both end up dealing 100 dps over the course of an encounter. Against tougher targets the Tank has the edge and will do more DPS because they're on target all the time, against weaker targets the Glass Cannon has the edge because targets die before they need to retreat. Assuming the targets are appropriately distributed, the Tank and Glass Cannon are balanced - it becomes a choice of play style, not effectiveness.
At the same time, within the trinity when people cooperate the sum is greater than the parts. If the Tank can hold aggro, then the Glass Cannon doesn't have to retreat. The Tank's 100 (encounter) DPS plus the Glass Cannon's 100 (encounter) DPS add up to 300 (encounter) DPS. Teamwork is rewarded.
That's not what's happening in STO. It's not just the Tank/Glass Cannon balance, but also the enemy distribution and mission set up. Even if the ships themselves are actually balanced, the encounters are set up such that not only do Glass Cannons never have to retreat, but damage is rewarded.
It's not just cruisers vs escorts vs science. If Tanks deal half the damage of GCannons but have twice the survivability, that can still be balanced if the content supports it. However, if the content only requires half that survivability in the first place, the excess damage of the GCannon isn't wasted, but the excess survivability of the Tank is.
Now, I may be wrong about the following, but my impression is that escort captains tried to play like Tanks (ie. be on target all the time), resulting in much death followed by whining on the forums. Consequently the encounters got rebalanced such that the Glass Cannons could be used as Tanks, which trivialized cruisers.
...resulting in people like me, who now tank in escorts.
(Tanking = Hold Aggro & Survive. You only need to survive longer than the enemy. Generally I can hold a Gateway's attention, and if the others can deal a collective 5k DPS, it'll die before I do.)
Within a trinity system, the way the tanks and glass cannons balance out is that the tank has steady damage throughout a combat, and never needs to stop dealing damage. The glass cannon does more damage, but can't always deal that damage (retreat or die). As a result, the overall damage during combat is the same.
That's not how the trinity system works.
The trinity works with tanks grabbing and holding aggro on a boss, or a group of enemies, while the DPS hammers them and the healer keeps the group alive.
The tank shouldn't be capable of even half the damage potential of the DPS -- if the "overall damage during combat is the same", then everyone would bring a tank type instead of a DPS type. The DPS should be capable of substantially more DPS than the tank, and be able to endure an errant hit or two, but the tank should be able to control the battlefield and weather the enemy's best shots.
The lack of aggro management tools for cruiser captains is the crux of the problem. With the only determination of who has aggro in this game being who does the most damage, it means the escort captains are too often forced into a tanking role. Because of this, escorts need to be capable of tanking, otherwise they're either not attacking or constantly respawning (and the respawn timers in STFs are horribly implemented).
I would be fine with reduced survivability on my escort if it meant that cruisers could reliably grab aggro off of me, but at present I really can't count on anyone in my group taking aggro off of me except a more powerful escort.
Plus, if the game is going to enforce a trinity system, it means that the STF queue system will need to explicitly fill those roles -- something like we see in WoW where someone queues up as a Tank, DPS, or Healer, and then groups are filled with those roles in mind. If the game balances the trinity so having a cruiser tank is mandatory, it's going to need some way to prevent PUGs being all Escorts.
At that point, it becomes a question of whether you really want to see the trinity system enforced, or if you would rather leave it as-is because you don't have a lot of faith in Cryptic to properly execute such a system. While I'd honestly like to see Cryptic take a crack at it, they've shown in the past that they never really carefully consider and test any of their systems, resulting in weeks of patches and fixes and bugs that never get ironed out. It could ultimately turn into an even bigger mess than we have now.
nothing wrong with that.
what needs changing is the effectiveness of cruisers & shi ships so that a group of 5 escorts, a group of 5 sci ships and a group of 5 cruisers are capable of finishing stf's in similar timeframes.
not by simply ramping up weapon dps like an interfering upper manager by by changing how ships deliver damage.
last thing you should want to do against a cruiser is get within 3 to 5 k, they should be able to project damage further than other ships on account of their weapons systems alone being the size of smaller ships
the last thing you should want to do to a sci is let it get its claws in, these are the ships that should have the ability to exploit & exacerbate enemy ships weaknesses, they should be the ones with the crit bonuses, their passive subsystem should be a passive with a stacking proc you choose between, not an on off click button with a timer.
Um... Interesting points I'll grant you, but flawed in a few ways. Against cruisers, you don't really care if you're point blank or 10km out. They won't hurt much either way (except against NPCs, and even then it's still a little... underwhelming). As for science? There are hundreds of threads and thousands of posts commenting on how pitiful they've become. At this point, it seems to me (OPINION ONLY, NOT FACT) the only viable build for sci is an ES TR polaron drain build. Which is sad.
The trinity works with tanks grabbing and holding aggro on a boss, or a group of enemies, while the DPS hammers them and the healer keeps the group alive.
The tank shouldn't be capable of even half the damage potential of the DPS -- if the "overall damage during combat is the same", then everyone would bring a tank type instead of a DPS type. The DPS should be capable of substantially more DPS than the tank, and be able to endure an errant hit or two, but the tank should be able to control the battlefield and weather the enemy's best shots.
The lack of aggro management tools for cruiser captains is the crux of the problem. With the only determination of who has aggro in this game being who does the most damage, it means the escort captains are too often forced into a tanking role. Because of this, escorts need to be capable of tanking, otherwise they're either not attacking or constantly respawning (and the respawn timers in STFs are horribly implemented).
I would be fine with reduced survivability on my escort if it meant that cruisers could reliably grab aggro off of me, but at present I really can't count on anyone in my group taking aggro off of me except a more powerful escort.
Plus, if the game is going to enforce a trinity system, it means that the STF queue system will need to explicitly fill those roles -- something like we see in WoW where someone queues up as a Tank, DPS, or Healer, and then groups are filled with those roles in mind. If the game balances the trinity so having a cruiser tank is mandatory, it's going to need some way to prevent PUGs being all Escorts.
At that point, it becomes a question of whether you really want to see the trinity system enforced, or if you would rather leave it as-is because you don't have a lot of faith in Cryptic to properly execute such a system. While I'd honestly like to see Cryptic take a crack at it, they've shown in the past that they never really carefully consider and test any of their systems, resulting in weeks of patches and fixes and bugs that never get ironed out. It could ultimately turn into an even bigger mess than we have now.
Except... for one... tiny... little... problem...
Escorts can tank as well as cruisers (actually in some cases better) against virtually EVERY PvE enemy. Which basically means cruisers have no role in game. Their primary function of tank (which they do wonderfully I will say) is just not needed.
But you are absolutely right. Aggro management is the main problem here. The reason being? The aggro skill is a CAPTAIN SKILL. Threat Control. Something ALL Cruiser pilots should have. The only problem there? Most cruiser pilots also fly other ships. And even though my Odyssey and FACR can tank like kings, my science ship is a mite too squishy to be drawing the aggro that points in TC would get me. And even though my FPE can tank a tac cube all day and all night, I would rather it not also attracted the attention of the gateway at the same time (which threat control would cause).
Now if Cruisers as a ship passive generated higher threat, then they would be able to do their "job" better. But as is, you can't have the general aggro skill without having it affect ALL ships. And let's face it, the +th consoles just aren't enough.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Apparently Gekco addressed this issue in his latest (four hour) interview. Not sure the folks perpetuating these topics, and this thread, will like what he has to say. But hey, that should make me a ton of new friends on this forum since I've not liked what he's had to say since the Nebula was designed.
The trinity works with tanks grabbing and holding aggro on a boss, or a group of enemies, while the DPS hammers them and the healer keeps the group alive.
I don't disagree with any of your statements in the context of a team, but that's not how properly balanced classes work for non-team combat. You're essentially talking about raids, I'm talking about everything else (PvE).
When a team of players within a trinity system is working together as designed, yes, what you say applies.
The tank shouldn't be capable of even half the damage potential of the DPS -- if the "overall damage during combat is the same", then everyone would bring a tank type instead of a DPS type. The DPS should be capable of substantially more DPS than the tank, and be able to endure an errant hit or two, but the tank should be able to control the battlefield and weather the enemy's best shots.
This doesn't actually disagree with what I said in any way, you're just talking about a more extreme version of the Glass Cannon. The Cannon in your example here only takes "an errant hit or two", the one in my example is half as tough as the Tank. The more fragile the DPS is, the more damage it should do - which again balances it out on an individual level.
When the Tank is soloing his DPS is low, but he doesn't have to ever retreat. When the Glass Cannon is soloing he does very high DPS, but if the mob doesn't die and lasts long enough to land two hits, the Glass Cannon has to retreat and recover. In the long run, with a proper mix of enemies, both will do the same DPS. The Tank does is slowly and steadily, the Glass Cannon does it in short bursts. Against tough targets the Tank does better because he can just go toe to toe and trade blows, but against weak targets the Glass Cannon mows them down before they can take him down.
For those that missed Geko's interview, he pretty much said the only option he'd consider is increasing the power drain of cannons. Which will affect a lot more than just Escorts.
So there's your answer. You want the devs to make a change? The option you have is to nerf cannons.
There won't be any buffing of cruisers or science ships. Of beam arrays or exotic damage types or science powers.
For those that missed Geko's interview, he pretty much said the only option he'd consider is increasing the power drain of cannons. Which will affect a lot more than just Escorts.
So there's your answer. You want the devs to make a change? The option you have is to nerf cannons.
There won't be any buffing of cruisers or science ships. Of beam arrays or exotic damage types or science powers.
Just the nerf bat. For cannons.
Carry on with your crusade.
God that's almost literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard a dev say. RAAAAAAAAAAAAWR!
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Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
The irony is that "increasing the power drain of cannons" probably means they will use up 1 more energy per salvo. Which will result in a damage decrease of... practically nothing. Yup, such a great balance measure.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
personally I fly a patrol escort and can tank the tac cube alone and die maybe 1-2 times so escorts in the hands of a talented player can uber tank and deal massive dps. I don't want them to keep nerfing items so much as simply buff arrays to make them more prolific in this game. I hate how people throw together TRIBBLE builds and then put canons on it and think that it's the greatest thing in the world, it's pathetic.
I also hate the idea that these huge ships filled with hundreds of people are flying around like jet fighters it's just stupid. But anyway, cannons shouldn't be the only thing to make a fighter capable. But then again I just want to kill more people so i'm partial.
Because, you know... there is nothing wrong with one ship having total and complete dominance for effectiveness in end-game content.
Or that one ship can do almost everything the other two can with ease, and loses out nothing for not having what the other two do.
Seriously dude... wake up!
I am awake and have played the game and the whole argument is TRIBBLE. it's all in the builds and skills (yours and your BO's). Escorts don't have that dominance people believe they do.. I see cruisers and escorts equally in STFs thought the carriers are also dominant. I'm gonna keep saying it till you finally understand it.
circular argument is a rational fallacy.
if all you have to make an assertion is the assertion itself with no outside reference supporting it, then you should either save your breath or deal with the debate as presented
as it stands
cruisers have;
poor agility
poor dps
and
average tanking.
auxilliaries have;
questionable aginility
questinable dps
and
questionable tanking
destroyers have
unrivaled agility
unrivaled dps
questionable tanking
this is not a balanced system, to make mattes worse, the agility combined with the dps exacerbate the problem to the point where they are op in combination where they wouldnt be otherwise
Then you explain the return of cruisers to STF, explain why in a fight with an eng in a MVAM Prommie with several consoles from other Zen ships AND Mk12 weapons wasn't able to definitivly beat my star cruiser with only one zen console (Point Defense phaser) Mk11 weapons. we fought for 45 mins before ending it in a draw. according to your theory he should have won hands down since he is in an escort. And that's not my best cruiser either.
more circular argument. i have seen shuttles in IS normal, doesnt make them effective.
doesnt change that a team of 5 escorts will blow through the mission in 6 or 7 munutes while a team of 5 cruisers will struggle to get the optional time and as a team will be equally likely to suffer casualties
same in team pvp providing equal coordination, 5 escorts will one sidedly beat a team of 5 cruisers.
you making claims
If my argument is circular than so is yours. I report in what I observe and experience.
Team, build, skills, and ships will make a difference in any fight. Now an example. Me in my VA Sovie went up against a Oddy and a Galx teamed against me. Off hand you would think me doomed. But I got first blood. The only time i got whopped was facing a good player with a good build on a Breen ship.
I am awake and have played the game and the whole argument is TRIBBLE. it's all in the builds and skills (yours and your BO's). Escorts don't have that dominance people believe they do.. I see cruisers and escorts equally in STFs thought the carriers are also dominant. I'm gonna keep saying it till you finally understand it.
Yes. Pug Cruisers have returned to STFs. And pug cruisers are TRIBBLE. Everyone thinks their trash builds will work. They don't. Pug escorts on the other hand tend to do a lot better. Because with a trash build on an escort, you can do fine in an ESTF. I would know, I've done it. And escorts at top level play can SLAUGHTER any other ship class. You ever been on the receiving end of a decloaking alpha strike from a top PvP fleet defiant? That's 20-25k DPS for 5 seconds. You are SCREWED. Even if you survive the first pass (which is unlikely) you will not survive the second.
There is NOTHING that can match that. And yet you blindly say that escorts and cruisers are equal? I think you're living under some rock. All the evidence is being placed in front of you, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Stop being so close minded and actually try to think outside of your own little world.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
If my argument is circular than so is yours. I report in what I observe and experience.
Team, build, skills, and ships will make a difference in any fight. Now an example. Me in my VA Sovie went up against a Oddy and a Galx teamed against me. Off hand you would think me doomed. But I got first blood. The only time i got whopped was facing a good player with a good build on a Breen ship.
This post seems more about your self perceived prowess in pvp then about the disparity between escorts and other ships in sto. The fact that you bested two bad players doesn't really prove cruisers are fine as is if that is the point you were trying to covey. Yes build matters, but a well built escort is superior to a well built cruiser or sciship is the issue.
If you can't tank a tac cube solo in your escorts you're doing it wrong. WAD
Not really... Tanking a tac cube solo in an escort is either pilot level Expert or pvper (read expert) I can just about pull it off on an average day and on a good day I can wipe the floor with it but on a bad day I take multiple 1 shots and it's not worth trying...
That said I get the exact same thing with my eng in her fleet Excelsior...
I can't speak for my sci, very under-equipped and yet still manages to pull threat from tac/scorts AND cruisers... in premade elite STFs...
Yes. Pug Cruisers have returned to STFs. And pug cruisers are TRIBBLE. Everyone thinks their trash builds will work. They don't. Pug escorts on the other hand tend to do a lot better. Because with a trash build on an escort, you can do fine in an ESTF. I would know, I've done it. And escorts at top level play can SLAUGHTER any other ship class. You ever been on the receiving end of a decloaking alpha strike from a top PvP fleet defiant? That's 20-25k DPS for 5 seconds. You are SCREWED. Even if you survive the first pass (which is unlikely) you will not survive the second.
There is NOTHING that can match that. And yet you blindly say that escorts and cruisers are equal? I think you're living under some rock. All the evidence is being placed in front of you, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Stop being so close minded and actually try to think outside of your own little world.
They do have there differences but nothing really needs to be done. I'm saying the main factor is the Build, Bo skills and your own skill. According to the OP Escort theory I should have easily died in those duels. I didn't thus the theory proven false. Escorts should have a tac and speed advantage just as a cruisers has eng, thus healing and hull advantage. While a good captain can have the right equipment to increase the healing on a escort the same can be said for a captain increasing dps on a cruiser.
If all you're talking about is a 5 second alpha strike from decloaking, I'm pretty sure a Galaxy X can match that, by doing the same thing, and using the phaser lance.
If all you're talking about is a 5 second alpha strike from decloaking, I'm pretty sure a Galaxy X can match that, by doing the same thing, and using the phaser lance.
Having never seen the phaser lance in action, I have to ask... is the damage that it does really enough to let the Gal-X match a Fleet Defiant decloaking with Attack Pattern Omega, Cannon: Rapid Fire, and all the other buffs a Tac-escort can pull off?
The Gal-X only gets two Ens Tac slots and one Lt., so it can't even access APO, and only CRF1. Given the power drain on the Phaser Lance, and the admittedly anecdotal stories I've heard of how often it misses, I have to doubt that it can reliably match the FTER's alpha strike.
They do have there differences but nothing really needs to be done. I'm saying the main factor is the Build, Bo skills and your own skill. According to the OP Escort theory I should have easily died in those duels. I didn't thus the theory proven false. Escorts should have a tac and speed advantage just as a cruisers has eng, thus healing and hull advantage. While a good captain can have the right equipment to increase the healing on a escort the same can be said for a captain increasing dps on a cruiser.
... You completely missed the point of my post. As in, you weren't even within a light year of it. The whole point I am trying to make is that the fact that one ship class dominates the game is just wrong. And before you say "oh hur dur, there are cruisers everywhere", let me ask you this. Out of all of those cruisers, how many can even come within sensor range of the effectiveness of escorts? Usually less than 20%. How many can match them? NONE.
And according to your own statements, you never dueled an escort, just two fail cruisers. And do you know how bloody easy it is to increase healing ability? You just push power to aux and all of a sudden you can burst heal for 6k with a HoT of another 12k. ANY ship can do that, not just cruisers. But pushing your damage higher? At most you can get a good 50% increase from equipment and BOff layout. But that doesn't change the fact that your everyday cruiser cannot usually go any higher than 6k DPS whilst your everyday escort can EASILY sustain 11-12k DPS.
If you look at their overall stats, and the disparity in health and shields, that's a huge imbalance skewed in favor of escorts. You really should look over your comments and data again, because something is terribly wrong with it if you think that what you have is ok.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
... You completely missed the point of my post. As in, you weren't even within a light year of it. The whole point I am trying to make is that the fact that one ship class dominates the game is just wrong. And before you say "oh hur dur, there are cruisers everywhere", let me ask you this. Out of all of those cruisers, how many can even come within sensor range of the effectiveness of escorts? Usually less than 20%. How many can match them? NONE.
And according to your own statements, you never dueled an escort, just two fail cruisers. And do you know how bloody easy it is to increase healing ability? You just push power to aux and all of a sudden you can burst heal for 6k with a HoT of another 12k. ANY ship can do that, not just cruisers. But pushing your damage higher? At most you can get a good 50% increase from equipment and BOff layout. But that doesn't change the fact that your everyday cruiser cannot usually go any higher than 6k DPS whilst your everyday escort can EASILY sustain 11-12k DPS.
If you look at their overall stats, and the disparity in health and shields, that's a huge imbalance skewed in favor of escorts. You really should look over your comments and data again, because something is terribly wrong with it if you think that what you have is ok.
but I did once, you missed my point. My point is build and skills are more important than type of ship. People may choose escorts for they like to fly fast and hit hard. which is what the escort is design to do. Cruisers are ment to take a beating and dish some back, (maybe not as much as a escort but some). And as a result some builds are better than others. someone with a crappy escort build can be beaten by some one in a cruiser with a great build. I'll keep saying and saying this and saying this till you get it. There is nothing wrong with the escorts or the cruisers MINUS the Galaxy. It's just crappy builds or crappy players.
but I did once, you missed my point. My point is build and skills are more important than type of ship. People may choose escorts for they like to fly fast and hit hard. which is what the escort is design to do. Cruisers are ment to take a beating and dish some back, (maybe not as much as a escort but some). And as a result some builds are better than others. someone with a crappy escort build can be beaten by some one in a cruiser with a great build. I'll keep saying and saying this and saying this till you get it. There is nothing wrong with the escorts or the cruisers MINUS the Galaxy. It's just crappy builds or crappy players.
and now put together a great escort build vs a great cruiser build. yeah, you know the results already. it is the science who loses, because noone talks about them
Comments
All this is moot. The escort bias is obvious and silly currently. Look at just game design, i.e. DPS to rule them all.
Devs love and actively play escorts. The game is designed to enhance escorts and tac captains.
Dstahl is famous for saying that he feels escorts are more fun and thus get more attention. It is unlikely to change anytime soon since the escort bias is from the top down at Cryptic.
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Amen.
Echoing what others have said, changing science damage to exotic once more would do wonders for the balance in this game. True, tactical captains should do the most damage, but why would they have more intimate knowledge of utilizing exotic particles than other captains? If anything, sensor scan should give a defensive reduction to exotic particle damage, allowing a nice spike damage from science captains, whilst still giving science ships a nice boost in science skill damage (by giving the same modifier to sci ships).
Look, this debate is really centered around one thing: do you trust the devs to balance back a single class, or properly balance all three? Seeing as how forums, by their very nature, are incredibly pessimistic, of course the arguments will center around nerfing a single entity. Nevermind that cruisers are tanking for a game that doesn't need them, and science ships are CC'ing without actually doing anything of the sort. Gravity Well III might do well enough for the AI, but it won't make even a lumbering cruiser worry about escaping its well.
It's not about escorts doing insane damage, nor their ability now to tank enough to warrant a cruiser captain from trading up for an escort, really; it's about the other classes no longer having a proper niche in the game. Yes, they excel enough to not be a drag on their team ( I know, I fly a 6k dps Nebula as an engi cpt), but you're not really going to counter the sheer face-melting dps of an all-escort team. I've flown with a few phenomenal Kumari captains, and I'd rather not see the dps a full team of them can pump out.
This game is supposedly about rock, paper, scissors. Unfortunately, the rock is Mount Everest, the paper is a 6000-yr old papyrus scroll, and the scissors have been purposefully rusted and dulled from contributing anything outside of the occasional metal splinter. It is impossible to point to a single item that needs to be fixed, as the entire system is horrendously broken. So really, it's only natural for paper and scissors to point to the rock and ask for it to be demo'd down to a balanced state. As Cryptic has proven time and again, it's much easier to blow something up than to make things effective.
*sigh*
You remind me of the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz. If only you had a brain.
I can guarantee you your Dreadnaught cannot and will not kill my tac with ease. My chel'gret could probably demolish you pretty easily, as can my Fleet Defiant. Ok, not easily, but you won't be able to destroy them with a cannon dread, simply because you'd need to keep them in your firing arc, which I can tell you right now is very difficult at best. Sorry. And you still have as of yet to provide a single point of proof to ANY statement you have made. I really only see hot air. You know the rule with the internet: screen shot or it never happened.
Sorry for the snip, but your comment was rather long, and I really didn't need to respond to every point you made, albeit some of them being quite good.
Basically it boils down to the fact that a lot of other ship classes really aren't needed in current in game content outside of PvP (which I am sorry to say is sorely lackluster in this game... oh wells). End game PvE, other than NWS and VERY limited parts of SBFD, only require huge amounts of DPS to win. Which basically means escorts (and a few VERY specific ships and builds if you go outside that class).
The whole point of my argument was simply that a reduction in the heal ability of escorts wouldn't destroy the game. It would actually cause an increase in need for healing and support classes. Because as is, an escort can tank virtually ALL end-game NPCs with almost stupid ease (TT1, EPtS1, HE1, TSS2, Aux2SIF1 are all you need, and ALL of those are Lt or lower abilities).
I have a fleet patrol escort that doesn't die against even Tac Cubes and gateways... from point blank. Ever. Reason being? It has 5 heals on it. Only 2 share a cooldown, and I leave the rest to it's shields, high hull, and 4 armor consoles. And it uses those abilities I listed above, and it just doesn't die. I really don't even need any cross healing. And if I ever get in danger of getting destroyed, I just hit EM3, and get clear until a heal comes off CD. I don't need ANY other ship classes if a basic fleet level escort can do that. And if you ask me, that's just wrong.
I still just park 2.5km from a tac cube and tank it. I can't tank Gateways easily anymore - when I have to solo one I end up popping all my cooldowns at least once, and there's roughly a 25% chance I'll have to retreat because it's not dying fast enough. The only thing I've really lost is the ability to shrug off the lances in HSE. (Now I die instead of get seriously hurt.)
I'm far more effective though, and can now carry STFs. In KSE there's no risk Probes can get through me, and I can take out an entire side by myself. In CSE a wave of 3 Raptors in inconsequential, and the wave of 3 Negh'vars die in about 20 seconds. In ISE I can bring a transformer from 100% to 0% by myself before nanites arrive.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again:
Within a trinity system, the way the tanks and glass cannons balance out is that the tank has steady damage throughout a combat, and never needs to stop dealing damage. The glass cannon does more damage, but can't always deal that damage (retreat or die). As a result, the overall damage during combat is the same.
For example, the Tank does 100 dps (on target) and a Glass Cannon does 200 dps (on target), but the Tank is on target all the time while the Glass Cannon has to retreat half the time, so both end up dealing 100 dps over the course of an encounter. Against tougher targets the Tank has the edge and will do more DPS because they're on target all the time, against weaker targets the Glass Cannon has the edge because targets die before they need to retreat. Assuming the targets are appropriately distributed, the Tank and Glass Cannon are balanced - it becomes a choice of play style, not effectiveness.
At the same time, within the trinity when people cooperate the sum is greater than the parts. If the Tank can hold aggro, then the Glass Cannon doesn't have to retreat. The Tank's 100 (encounter) DPS plus the Glass Cannon's 100 (encounter) DPS add up to 300 (encounter) DPS. Teamwork is rewarded.
That's not what's happening in STO. It's not just the Tank/Glass Cannon balance, but also the enemy distribution and mission set up. Even if the ships themselves are actually balanced, the encounters are set up such that not only do Glass Cannons never have to retreat, but damage is rewarded.
It's not just cruisers vs escorts vs science. If Tanks deal half the damage of GCannons but have twice the survivability, that can still be balanced if the content supports it. However, if the content only requires half that survivability in the first place, the excess damage of the GCannon isn't wasted, but the excess survivability of the Tank is.
Now, I may be wrong about the following, but my impression is that escort captains tried to play like Tanks (ie. be on target all the time), resulting in much death followed by whining on the forums. Consequently the encounters got rebalanced such that the Glass Cannons could be used as Tanks, which trivialized cruisers.
...resulting in people like me, who now tank in escorts.
(Tanking = Hold Aggro & Survive. You only need to survive longer than the enemy. Generally I can hold a Gateway's attention, and if the others can deal a collective 5k DPS, it'll die before I do.)
That's not how the trinity system works.
The trinity works with tanks grabbing and holding aggro on a boss, or a group of enemies, while the DPS hammers them and the healer keeps the group alive.
The tank shouldn't be capable of even half the damage potential of the DPS -- if the "overall damage during combat is the same", then everyone would bring a tank type instead of a DPS type. The DPS should be capable of substantially more DPS than the tank, and be able to endure an errant hit or two, but the tank should be able to control the battlefield and weather the enemy's best shots.
The lack of aggro management tools for cruiser captains is the crux of the problem. With the only determination of who has aggro in this game being who does the most damage, it means the escort captains are too often forced into a tanking role. Because of this, escorts need to be capable of tanking, otherwise they're either not attacking or constantly respawning (and the respawn timers in STFs are horribly implemented).
I would be fine with reduced survivability on my escort if it meant that cruisers could reliably grab aggro off of me, but at present I really can't count on anyone in my group taking aggro off of me except a more powerful escort.
Plus, if the game is going to enforce a trinity system, it means that the STF queue system will need to explicitly fill those roles -- something like we see in WoW where someone queues up as a Tank, DPS, or Healer, and then groups are filled with those roles in mind. If the game balances the trinity so having a cruiser tank is mandatory, it's going to need some way to prevent PUGs being all Escorts.
At that point, it becomes a question of whether you really want to see the trinity system enforced, or if you would rather leave it as-is because you don't have a lot of faith in Cryptic to properly execute such a system. While I'd honestly like to see Cryptic take a crack at it, they've shown in the past that they never really carefully consider and test any of their systems, resulting in weeks of patches and fixes and bugs that never get ironed out. It could ultimately turn into an even bigger mess than we have now.
Um... Interesting points I'll grant you, but flawed in a few ways. Against cruisers, you don't really care if you're point blank or 10km out. They won't hurt much either way (except against NPCs, and even then it's still a little... underwhelming). As for science? There are hundreds of threads and thousands of posts commenting on how pitiful they've become. At this point, it seems to me (OPINION ONLY, NOT FACT) the only viable build for sci is an ES TR polaron drain build. Which is sad.
Except... for one... tiny... little... problem...
Escorts can tank as well as cruisers (actually in some cases better) against virtually EVERY PvE enemy. Which basically means cruisers have no role in game. Their primary function of tank (which they do wonderfully I will say) is just not needed.
But you are absolutely right. Aggro management is the main problem here. The reason being? The aggro skill is a CAPTAIN SKILL. Threat Control. Something ALL Cruiser pilots should have. The only problem there? Most cruiser pilots also fly other ships. And even though my Odyssey and FACR can tank like kings, my science ship is a mite too squishy to be drawing the aggro that points in TC would get me. And even though my FPE can tank a tac cube all day and all night, I would rather it not also attracted the attention of the gateway at the same time (which threat control would cause).
Now if Cruisers as a ship passive generated higher threat, then they would be able to do their "job" better. But as is, you can't have the general aggro skill without having it affect ALL ships. And let's face it, the +th consoles just aren't enough.
When a team of players within a trinity system is working together as designed, yes, what you say applies.
This doesn't actually disagree with what I said in any way, you're just talking about a more extreme version of the Glass Cannon. The Cannon in your example here only takes "an errant hit or two", the one in my example is half as tough as the Tank. The more fragile the DPS is, the more damage it should do - which again balances it out on an individual level.
When the Tank is soloing his DPS is low, but he doesn't have to ever retreat. When the Glass Cannon is soloing he does very high DPS, but if the mob doesn't die and lasts long enough to land two hits, the Glass Cannon has to retreat and recover. In the long run, with a proper mix of enemies, both will do the same DPS. The Tank does is slowly and steadily, the Glass Cannon does it in short bursts. Against tough targets the Tank does better because he can just go toe to toe and trade blows, but against weak targets the Glass Cannon mows them down before they can take him down.
So there's your answer. You want the devs to make a change? The option you have is to nerf cannons.
There won't be any buffing of cruisers or science ships. Of beam arrays or exotic damage types or science powers.
Just the nerf bat. For cannons.
Carry on with your crusade.
God that's almost literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard a dev say. RAAAAAAAAAAAAWR!
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
I also hate the idea that these huge ships filled with hundreds of people are flying around like jet fighters it's just stupid. But anyway, cannons shouldn't be the only thing to make a fighter capable. But then again I just want to kill more people so i'm partial.
Gotta get some credit here eventually, somewhere skill needs account for something
Because, you know... there is nothing wrong with one ship having total and complete dominance for effectiveness in end-game content.
Or that one ship can do almost everything the other two can with ease, and loses out nothing for not having what the other two do.
Seriously dude... wake up!
I am awake and have played the game and the whole argument is TRIBBLE. it's all in the builds and skills (yours and your BO's). Escorts don't have that dominance people believe they do.. I see cruisers and escorts equally in STFs thought the carriers are also dominant. I'm gonna keep saying it till you finally understand it.
Then you explain the return of cruisers to STF, explain why in a fight with an eng in a MVAM Prommie with several consoles from other Zen ships AND Mk12 weapons wasn't able to definitivly beat my star cruiser with only one zen console (Point Defense phaser) Mk11 weapons. we fought for 45 mins before ending it in a draw. according to your theory he should have won hands down since he is in an escort. And that's not my best cruiser either.
If my argument is circular than so is yours. I report in what I observe and experience.
Team, build, skills, and ships will make a difference in any fight. Now an example. Me in my VA Sovie went up against a Oddy and a Galx teamed against me. Off hand you would think me doomed. But I got first blood. The only time i got whopped was facing a good player with a good build on a Breen ship.
If anything they need damage health boost
Yes. Pug Cruisers have returned to STFs. And pug cruisers are TRIBBLE. Everyone thinks their trash builds will work. They don't. Pug escorts on the other hand tend to do a lot better. Because with a trash build on an escort, you can do fine in an ESTF. I would know, I've done it. And escorts at top level play can SLAUGHTER any other ship class. You ever been on the receiving end of a decloaking alpha strike from a top PvP fleet defiant? That's 20-25k DPS for 5 seconds. You are SCREWED. Even if you survive the first pass (which is unlikely) you will not survive the second.
There is NOTHING that can match that. And yet you blindly say that escorts and cruisers are equal? I think you're living under some rock. All the evidence is being placed in front of you, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Stop being so close minded and actually try to think outside of your own little world.
This post seems more about your self perceived prowess in pvp then about the disparity between escorts and other ships in sto. The fact that you bested two bad players doesn't really prove cruisers are fine as is if that is the point you were trying to covey. Yes build matters, but a well built escort is superior to a well built cruiser or sciship is the issue.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Not really... Tanking a tac cube solo in an escort is either pilot level Expert or pvper (read expert) I can just about pull it off on an average day and on a good day I can wipe the floor with it but on a bad day I take multiple 1 shots and it's not worth trying...
That said I get the exact same thing with my eng in her fleet Excelsior...
I can't speak for my sci, very under-equipped and yet still manages to pull threat from tac/scorts AND cruisers... in premade elite STFs...
They do have there differences but nothing really needs to be done. I'm saying the main factor is the Build, Bo skills and your own skill. According to the OP Escort theory I should have easily died in those duels. I didn't thus the theory proven false. Escorts should have a tac and speed advantage just as a cruisers has eng, thus healing and hull advantage. While a good captain can have the right equipment to increase the healing on a escort the same can be said for a captain increasing dps on a cruiser.
If all you're talking about is a 5 second alpha strike from decloaking, I'm pretty sure a Galaxy X can match that, by doing the same thing, and using the phaser lance.
Having never seen the phaser lance in action, I have to ask... is the damage that it does really enough to let the Gal-X match a Fleet Defiant decloaking with Attack Pattern Omega, Cannon: Rapid Fire, and all the other buffs a Tac-escort can pull off?
The Gal-X only gets two Ens Tac slots and one Lt., so it can't even access APO, and only CRF1. Given the power drain on the Phaser Lance, and the admittedly anecdotal stories I've heard of how often it misses, I have to doubt that it can reliably match the FTER's alpha strike.
... You completely missed the point of my post. As in, you weren't even within a light year of it. The whole point I am trying to make is that the fact that one ship class dominates the game is just wrong. And before you say "oh hur dur, there are cruisers everywhere", let me ask you this. Out of all of those cruisers, how many can even come within sensor range of the effectiveness of escorts? Usually less than 20%. How many can match them? NONE.
And according to your own statements, you never dueled an escort, just two fail cruisers. And do you know how bloody easy it is to increase healing ability? You just push power to aux and all of a sudden you can burst heal for 6k with a HoT of another 12k. ANY ship can do that, not just cruisers. But pushing your damage higher? At most you can get a good 50% increase from equipment and BOff layout. But that doesn't change the fact that your everyday cruiser cannot usually go any higher than 6k DPS whilst your everyday escort can EASILY sustain 11-12k DPS.
If you look at their overall stats, and the disparity in health and shields, that's a huge imbalance skewed in favor of escorts. You really should look over your comments and data again, because something is terribly wrong with it if you think that what you have is ok.
but I did once, you missed my point. My point is build and skills are more important than type of ship. People may choose escorts for they like to fly fast and hit hard. which is what the escort is design to do. Cruisers are ment to take a beating and dish some back, (maybe not as much as a escort but some). And as a result some builds are better than others. someone with a crappy escort build can be beaten by some one in a cruiser with a great build. I'll keep saying and saying this and saying this till you get it. There is nothing wrong with the escorts or the cruisers MINUS the Galaxy. It's just crappy builds or crappy players.
and now put together a great escort build vs a great cruiser build. yeah, you know the results already. it is the science who loses, because noone talks about them
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2