DEM is actually an additional chunk of damage added to every shot that goes directly to hull, it is independent of the actual weapons damage. so it sucks on low rate of fire beams, and is amazing on rapid fire cannons. doesn't seem particularly fair to beam array users does it. its a must have skill on a KDF cruiser, or something like a single cannons excelsior though
I still find it funny, that it's 6 pts in a T5 Tactical skill so an Engineer can train DEM3. I suppose that gets into their fuzzy balancing.
what rapid fire cannons ? stupid turrets, single cannons, and using only one cannon rapid fire (1 btw) ? lol
any cruiser your trying to deal damage with more then heal should proboly be using a tech doff skill. then only 1 copy of CRF has about the up time of 2 copies. the excelsior could already have 2 copies of CRF too. your damage is still short bus levels, nothing without DHCs deals real pain
What Cmdr/LcDr Eng Boff slot issues are there again? If anything Sci Capt/Lt Commander Boffs have issues, but that's another subject.
It's not the Cmdr/LCdr rank ability slots themselves. It's the abilities available on the way up.
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
When you only have 5 abilities to choose from for the Ensign slots, where 4 of the 5 are in the same group, you don't have many choices.
So you move on to LT slots. There are 7 new abilities. 3 in one group, 2 in another group, and 2 not in a group. You can also take R2 of those 5 Ensign abilities - they're still in the same groups they were at R1 though.
If you took EPtS1 and EPtW1, it's unlikely that you're going to take another EPt at LT. Maybe you took one EPt1 and ET1 and you'll take another EPt2 at LT. So you've still got the choice of one of those 7 new abilities.
So you move on to the LCdr slots. There are 2 new abilities. They don't share a group. Overall, you have a choice of 14 abilities for each of those LCdr slots. There are 8 groups for those 14 abilities. Doesn't sound too bad. Well, you've already picked 4 abilities that may have resulted in 2 abilities in each group. There's nothing saying that you can't use 3 from the same group. With Eng BOFF abilities though, the way the CDs work - odds are something's just going to be sitting there unused. Also, certain rotations of two abilities almost precludes the use of a third.
Btw, don't forget that ET's sharing space with TT and ST.
And then you've got that final Cmdr slot. 7 abilities (9 if you count the R2s as well as the R3s). No new abilities - no new groups. Depending on what you've selected along the way, you may have limited your effective choices.
Compare that to Tac or Sci. Tac has more choices and abilities, but it's going to be limited by weapons. Sci has more choices and abilities than even Tac, but it's going to be limited by skill build. Eng's limited by simply being limited in choices and abilities, but it's also further limited by weapons and skill build as well.
Is it too much to ask that each of the groups have a similar amount of choices - with those choices being balanced by opportunity cost. Tac should have more. Eng should definitely have more. Those "more" shouldn't just be awesomemegabonus time - they should still present some opportunity cost.
If you've got X skills and Y weapons, then Z are your choices. Whether it's Tac or Eng. Sci's obviously going to be that special case since it's so heavily tied into skills.
It's even been suggested in similar discussions that only Ensign rank or En/Lt rank abilities be added. Even if you could only take R1 or R1/2 of something - that still has that opportunity cost either in other ability selection, weapon choice, or skill build - it could go a long way not only improving Cruisers...but improving any vessel that has at least one Engineering BOFF slot.
My suggestion is if you're going to fly a base Fed Cruiser understand it's designed for team support and if you don't want to fill that role pick another ship. It has nothing to do w/Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci. It has everything to do w/playstyle choices. Exactly, what playstyle chioce do you want that isn't available in this game? Or is you want Fed Cruisers to fill all playstyle chioces?
My Fed Eng flies a Chel Gret - Escort.
My KDF Eng flies a Mirror Vor'cha/Kamarag - Battle Cruiser.
My Fed Sci flies a Mirror RSV - Science.
My KDF Tac flies a Mirror Vo'quv - Carrier.
The only toon that comes close to filling the stereotypical role is the Fed Sci. Course, I doubt he could kill you if you were AFK. However, the Tac/Tac next to him could kill you pressing his spacebar with his pinkytoe while eating Cheetos and watching a movie. That's the closest any of them come to the stereotypical role. (And no, that's not a challenge - it's not a specific "you" - it's just the generic you as in somebody.)
The KDF Tac's actually the closest thing to a healer out of that group. She'll drop FoMM on whatever target's been called or needs it, she'll TI teammates, and isn't stingy with the heals. I feel safer with the GDF with that much hull than on an Escort as well. It's funny seeing how much hull you have left even at 30%.
I DPS with both Engineers - though the KDF Eng will also tank in PvE or bait in PUGland. The Chel's sporting Beams and the Vor'cha/Kamarag are using torps.
I'm fully aware that a Tac could do more damage in the Chel Grett than the Eng can.
I'm fully aware that the Eng could do more damage with DHCs than Beams.
The Tac's also more likely to die than the Eng though.
With DHCs you're fighting for positioning to use them which can leave you exposed - with the Beams, they're doing their thing while I'm making sure I'm not exposed.
Tac/Tac have a tendency to disengage and run away. So much has been min/maxed around trying to deliver that alpha... I try to min/max to go "oh that tickled" at the alpha while winning a battle of attrition. If I was a Tac in that Chel Grett and using DHCs... man, I'd probably have quit by now - dying too much and doing garbage for damage because of it. I don't though. I'm an Eng in it with Beams. I plod along - have fun - then I'm outnumbered or a Sci's making me call him daddy...and then I respawn.
That's not a VD's awesome by any means. There are folks out there that would shred me regardless of what I'm flying. Hell, there's folks out there that would shred me and any friends I brought along. They're effin' awesome.
But yeah, all that aside - I agree that folks should look at their playstyle - what they want to do - and plan accordingly. That doesn't mean folks can't look at something and see there's something wrong with it.
I hate posting in these threads at times, because I often feel that I get lumped in with all the crazies. No genuine offense meant to them, but c'mon - they're freaking loons.
For damage:
Tac > Eng
Escort > Cruiser
Which means Tac/Escort > Eng/Escort & Tac/Cruiser > Eng/Cruiser. Eng/Escort vs. Tac/Cruiser...that's a tough one. Heh, Eng/Bug > Tac/Star Cruiser. That's safe, right?
I don't buy into the Eng should be able to do the same damage as the Tac. I don't buy into the Cruiser should be able to do the same damage as the Escort.
Doesn't mean I don't see problems with Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers. Heck, I think even Tac Captains and Tac BOFFs need some love. Sci? Yeah, they need some love from the Eng and Tac Captains in their Cruisers and Escorts.
I still don't understand why Fed snoozers have the turn rate that they do. They mechanically can't equip DCs/DHCs even if they wanted to, so what's the big deal?
I still don't understand why Fed snoozers have the turn rate that they do. They mechanically can't equip DCs/DHCs even if they wanted to, so what's the big deal?
Would the Fed Cruiser's turn rate be an issue if the Escort's turn rate couldn't go as high as it can?
Would the Fed Cruiser's turn rate be an issue if the Escort's turn rate couldn't go as high as it can?
Is 7-12 really that bad compared to 15-25?
Or is it when it's the 7-12 vs. 30-40+?
Well you do have to take into consideration the silliness that is AP:O/RCS consoles. For some inane reason they scale percentage-wise, rather than a flat additive, meaning that that escort will actually get more (a lot more) out of an RCS than will that Fed snoozer or what have you.
Well you do have to take into consideration the silliness that is AP:O/RCS consoles. For some inane reason they scale percentage-wise, rather than a flat additive, meaning that that escort will actually get more (a lot more) out of an RCS than will that Fed snoozer or what have you.
I've always thought that was a problem. It actually makes it so that if your stuck with one of the more sluggish ships, the RCS console has less benefit. You'd think that the ships with the most need of some extra turning would benefit most by adding some, but generally speaking they're better off piling on armor since they can't modify their turn by enough to matter anyway.
I kind of think RCS consoles and abilities which modify turn ought to be based on ships with a 10 turn rate. So a console which adds 35% now, would add a flat +3.5 instead no matter which ship it's put on. Or if you wanted base it on ships with a 12 turn (typical for science ships) which would give +4.2 for the same console. The point is that a flat addition would encourage RCS consoles to be used to compensate for crappy turning rather than to min/max ships with already exceptional turning.
It's not the Cmdr/LCdr rank ability slots themselves. It's the abilities available on the way up.
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
When you only have 5 abilities to choose from for the Ensign slots, where 4 of the 5 are in the same group, you don't have many choices.
So you move on to LT slots. There are 7 new abilities. 3 in one group, 2 in another group, and 2 not in a group. You can also take R2 of those 5 Ensign abilities - they're still in the same groups they were at R1 though.
If you took EPtS1 and EPtW1, it's unlikely that you're going to take another EPt at LT. Maybe you took one EPt1 and ET1 and you'll take another EPt2 at LT. So you've still got the choice of one of those 7 new abilities.
So you move on to the LCdr slots. There are 2 new abilities. They don't share a group. Overall, you have a choice of 14 abilities for each of those LCdr slots. There are 8 groups for those 14 abilities. Doesn't sound too bad. Well, you've already picked 4 abilities that may have resulted in 2 abilities in each group. There's nothing saying that you can't use 3 from the same group. With Eng BOFF abilities though, the way the CDs work - odds are something's just going to be sitting there unused. Also, certain rotations of two abilities almost precludes the use of a third.
Btw, don't forget that ET's sharing space with TT and ST.
And then you've got that final Cmdr slot. 7 abilities (9 if you count the R2s as well as the R3s). No new abilities - no new groups. Depending on what you've selected along the way, you may have limited your effective choices.
Compare that to Tac or Sci. Tac has more choices and abilities, but it's going to be limited by weapons. Sci has more choices and abilities than even Tac, but it's going to be limited by skill build. Eng's limited by simply being limited in choices and abilities, but it's also further limited by weapons and skill build as well.
Is it too much to ask that each of the groups have a similar amount of choices - with those choices being balanced by opportunity cost. Tac should have more. Eng should definitely have more. Those "more" shouldn't just be awesomemegabonus time - they should still present some opportunity cost.
If you've got X skills and Y weapons, then Z are your choices. Whether it's Tac or Eng. Sci's obviously going to be that special case since it's so heavily tied into skills.
It's even been suggested in similar discussions that only Ensign rank or En/Lt rank abilities be added. Even if you could only take R1 or R1/2 of something - that still has that opportunity cost either in other ability selection, weapon choice, or skill build - it could go a long way not only improving Cruisers...but improving any vessel that has at least one Engineering BOFF slot.
Ens: EPTS1, EPTA1 or EPTW1 or EPTE1 (probably aux for support build)
Lt: ET2 x 1 or 2, Aux2damp (if needed vs stun heavy team)
LtCmdr:ES2, Aux2Sif2 or ES2
Cmr: ES3 or Aux2Sif3 or ET3
Doffs:Eptx cooldown reducing doffs, ES doff(s), and/or maint doff(s)
For variety add in EWP w/doffs, or DEM w/doffs.
Again these ships (Fed support cruisers) are meant to repair.
T4 passives/rom sci consoles aside, pressure damage cruisers are different. They don't have 2 tac consoles for starters. To me I just can get past using the right tool for the job, instead of trying to redesign a tool away from what it was originally built for. I don't see anything in Eng Boff layouts that prevents them from doing this role.
My Fed Eng flies a Chel Gret - Escort.
My KDF Eng flies a Mirror Vor'cha/Kamarag - Battle Cruiser.
My Fed Sci flies a Mirror RSV - Science.
My KDF Tac flies a Mirror Vo'quv - Carrier.
The only toon that comes close to filling the stereotypical role is the Fed Sci. Course, I doubt he could kill you if you were AFK. However, the Tac/Tac next to him could kill you pressing his spacebar with his pinkytoe while eating Cheetos and watching a movie. That's the closest any of them come to the stereotypical role. (And no, that's not a challenge - it's not a specific "you" - it's just the generic you as in somebody.)
The KDF Tac's actually the closest thing to a healer out of that group. She'll drop FoMM on whatever target's been called or needs it, she'll TI teammates, and isn't stingy with the heals. I feel safer with the GDF with that much hull than on an Escort as well. It's funny seeing how much hull you have left even at 30%.
I DPS with both Engineers - though the KDF Eng will also tank in PvE or bait in PUGland. The Chel's sporting Beams and the Vor'cha/Kamarag are using torps.
I'm fully aware that a Tac could do more damage in the Chel Grett than the Eng can.
I'm fully aware that the Eng could do more damage with DHCs than Beams.
The Tac's also more likely to die than the Eng though.
With DHCs you're fighting for positioning to use them which can leave you exposed - with the Beams, they're doing their thing while I'm making sure I'm not exposed.
Tac/Tac have a tendency to disengage and run away. So much has been min/maxed around trying to deliver that alpha... I try to min/max to go "oh that tickled" at the alpha while winning a battle of attrition. If I was a Tac in that Chel Grett and using DHCs... man, I'd probably have quit by now - dying too much and doing garbage for damage because of it. I don't though. I'm an Eng in it with Beams. I plod along - have fun - then I'm outnumbered or a Sci's making me call him daddy...and then I respawn.
That's not a VD's awesome by any means. There are folks out there that would shred me regardless of what I'm flying. Hell, there's folks out there that would shred me and any friends I brought along. They're effin' awesome.
But yeah, all that aside - I agree that folks should look at their playstyle - what they want to do - and plan accordingly. That doesn't mean folks can't look at something and see there's something wrong with it.
I hate posting in these threads at times, because I often feel that I get lumped in with all the crazies. No genuine offense meant to them, but c'mon - they're freaking loons.
For damage:
Tac > Eng
Escort > Cruiser
Which means Tac/Escort > Eng/Escort & Tac/Cruiser > Eng/Cruiser. Eng/Escort vs. Tac/Cruiser...that's a tough one. Heh, Eng/Bug > Tac/Star Cruiser. That's safe, right?
I don't buy into the Eng should be able to do the same damage as the Tac. I don't buy into the Cruiser should be able to do the same damage as the Escort.
Doesn't mean I don't see problems with Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers. Heck, I think even Tac Captains and Tac BOFFs need some love. Sci? Yeah, they need some love from the Eng and Tac Captains in their Cruisers and Escorts.
Escort > Cruiser depends on the escort and cruiser in question and the type of damage desired. This thread has focused on Fed support cruisers, not BCs nor hybrids. I still haven't seen anything wrong w/cruisers even if I conceded the Eng Boff issue which I don't.
Eng Captains sure.
Pressure DPS w/all the new passive repair procs and FT shield resistance procs, sure.
Eng Boff powers, no.
Cruisers, no.
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C&H Fed banter
I still don't understand why Fed snoozers have the turn rate that they do. They mechanically can't equip DCs/DHCs even if they wanted to, so what's the big deal?
This goes back to faction balance. KDF, including BCs, were designed for Hit and Run tactics. They need to be better vs the Feds in order to keep that tactic viable.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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C&H Fed banter
This goes back to faction balance. KDF, including BCs, were designed for Hit and Run tactics. They need to be better vs the Feds in order to keep that tactic viable.
In the days before lockboxes and fleet vessels you might have had half a point. However, any niche that Fed snoozers may have once fit has been completely eroded by cross-faction/fleet ships that outclass them both at healing/protection (Wells, Recluse) and sustained damage or maneuverability (pretty much every Klinkydink snoozer). Even on a stat-by-stat basis Fed snoozers are terribly outclassed: the Fl. Vorcha has a frankly ridonkulous 1.1 mod to the Fleet Stargazer's .94, for instance).
Some moar evidence that considering Cryptic calls themselves DS9 fanboys, they must've been watching a different show to the one I did (pay close attention to each appearance of a Galaxy class in the clip):
Ens: EPTS1, EPTA1 or EPTW1 or EPTE1 (probably aux for support build)
Lt: ET2 x 1 or 2, Aux2damp (if needed vs stun heavy team)
LtCmdr:ES2, Aux2Sif2 or ES2
Cmr: ES3 or Aux2Sif3 or ET3
Doffs:Eptx cooldown reducing doffs, ES doff(s), and/or maint doff(s)
For variety add in EWP w/doffs, or DEM w/doffs.
Again these ships (Fed support cruisers) are meant to repair.
T4 passives/rom sci consoles aside, pressure damage cruisers are different. They don't have 2 tac consoles for starters. To me I just can get past using the right tool for the job, instead of trying to redesign a tool away from what it was originally built for. I don't see anything in Eng Boff layouts that prevents them from doing this role.
It's not just Cruisers, though - it's those Ensign Engineering BOFFs.
If there's just a single Lt Eng BOFF - is that going to vary much from ship to ship? Compare that to Tac or Sci.
Lt and En? How much variety are you looking at? Compare to Tac and Sci?
It's almost always going to be the same abilities selected for the Engineering BOFFs. How many are you going to change depending on if you're doing Support, Tanking, or "Pressure" Damage?
Then look at the sheer variety for Tacs. Are you using Cannons? Are you using Beams? Are you using Torps? Are you using Mines? Are you using a mix? Going to run dual TT or have you DOFF'd TT to run one and boost APs because you don't want to run 3+ Teams? Are you running dual APO or just one because you're using PH from Sci as well?
Look at it for Sci... and it makes Tacs look limited in choice.
Go back to Eng, eh?
EPtA for support or EPtW for pressure.
ES for support or DEM for pressure.
Where does BP fit in? What about AB? What about higher ranks or lower ranks of other abilities?
It's not just a case of having a more limited selection of both abilities and groups - it's also a case that some of the abilities simply don't fit in with anything outside of playing in your sleep through replay missions.
What Cruiser should use AB3?
What Cruiser should use BP3?
What Cruiser should use EPtA3?
I still can't get past the feeling that they created Tacs/Escorts, Sci/SVs, and then added in Eng/Cruisers.
Look at SVs. Subsystem Targeting? So they have innate Tac BOFF abilities? Sensor Analysis? You mean something that a Tac bridge officer might be doing in the shows or movies?
In the days before lockboxes and fleet vessels you might have had half a point. However, any niche that Fed snoozers may have once fit has been completely eroded by cross-faction/fleet ships that outclass them both at healing/protection (Wells, Recluse) and sustained damage or maneuverability (pretty much every Klinkydink snoozer). Even on a stat-by-stat basis Fed snoozers are terribly outclassed: the Fl. Vorcha has a frankly ridonkulous 1.1 mod to the Fleet Stargazer's .94, for instance).
Some moar evidence that considering Cryptic calls themselves DS9 fanboys, they must've been watching a different show to the one I did (pay close attention to each appearance of a Galaxy class in the clip):
1st KDF don't have snoozer Cruisers. The closest they have is a the Carrier which aside form the Brel is all they get for decent sci options. The target of the repairs matter which is why Fed Escorts are better. Feds have better Sci, Escort, and Support Cruiser options including Fleet ships. KDF have better heavy pressure DPS Cruisers, they have weak Raiders, and the Vet ship a Raider/Destoyer hybrid.
Lotto ships are by in large designed to be better than all others. This doesn't mean other ships can't fill their roles. The blurring of the factions has less to do w/this and more w/Feds having options for mounting cannons on all ship types and options for pets on all ship types.
But, none of this means Fed support Cruisers are underpowered.
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
It's not just Cruisers, though - it's those Ensign Engineering BOFFs.
If there's just a single Lt Eng BOFF - is that going to vary much from ship to ship? Compare that to Tac or Sci.
Lt and En? How much variety are you looking at? Compare to Tac and Sci?
It's almost always going to be the same abilities selected for the Engineering BOFFs. How many are you going to change depending on if you're doing Support, Tanking, or "Pressure" Damage?
Then look at the sheer variety for Tacs. Are you using Cannons? Are you using Beams? Are you using Torps? Are you using Mines? Are you using a mix? Going to run dual TT or have you DOFF'd TT to run one and boost APs because you don't want to run 3+ Teams? Are you running dual APO or just one because you're using PH from Sci as well?
Look at it for Sci... and it makes Tacs look limited in choice.
Go back to Eng, eh?
EPtA for support or EPtW for pressure.
ES for support or DEM for pressure.
Where does BP fit in? What about AB? What about higher ranks or lower ranks of other abilities?
It's not just a case of having a more limited selection of both abilities and groups - it's also a case that some of the abilities simply don't fit in with anything outside of playing in your sleep through replay missions.
What Cruiser should use AB3?
What Cruiser should use BP3?
What Cruiser should use EPtA3?
I still can't get past the feeling that they created Tacs/Escorts, Sci/SVs, and then added in Eng/Cruisers.
Look at SVs. Subsystem Targeting? So they have innate Tac BOFF abilities? Sensor Analysis? You mean something that a Tac bridge officer might be doing in the shows or movies?
But then again, RSP/ES both scream Science. Boarding Party screams Tactical.
One can easily go through and see where things are mixed up in various areas. They're just things that have always bugged me.
While so many folks are off wanting the Cruisers to be Escorts - I've just done my best /picard while looking at everything else...
Lets stick w/a ship a single lt eng slot. Eptx and Epty and doffs to reduce cooldowns. One of the Ept will be shields. This leaves 3 options for the 2nd slot. W/o Doffs it's 2x EPTS. Eitherway, other than TT distribution power, imo, this is the most powerful low end Boff slot and it's why so many want more than 1 low Eng slot.
For a ship w/just a Lt Sci. HE and TSS will most likely be what's selected w/HE pretty much required for the counter abilities. ST, PH, TBR, TB are reasonable options. But, most will be TSS and HE.
For a ship w/just a Lt Tac TT is nearly required. This leaves APD or APB or BO2 or TSSx or TorpHY or TS or a Mine Pattern. This assumes Doffs for cyclying a single TT copy. Seems Tac has most flexibilty, but really in terms of impact TT is only one significant on ship w/just a Lt Tac. Personally, I tend to fly w/only one TT and use other means either piloting/turning, doffs, other boff abilities to open up other team options as debuff counters.
In the end while Ens Eng options aren't many they are very powerful options as are the Lt options.
Again why does this hurt support cruisers or lead them to be underpowered?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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C&H Fed banter
Or how the vor'cha effortlessly keeps up with the hero defiant.
This is just a bad defiant pilot, most likely someone who's not using hyper impulse engines and or putting power to engines.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Lets stick w/a ship a single lt eng slot. Eptx and Epty and doffs to reduce cooldowns. One of the Ept will be shields. This leaves 3 options for the 2nd slot. W/o Doffs it's 2x EPTS. Eitherway, other than TT distribution power, imo, this is the most powerful low end Boff slot and it's why so many want more than 1 low Eng slot.
Yep, 2 is better than one. I tend to run EPtS1, EPtW1, AtS1 or EPtS1, ET1, AtS1. Thing is, with those, there's not going to be much variety beyond that. There are only a couple of the abilities that have any value compared to the others depending on what you're doing.
I mean, you've laid out pretty much what everybody's going to run. 12 different abilities with 6 groups, but pretty much everybody's going to run 2 from the same group. That's an issue. I've just had an idea, that I'm to post as a separate post in this thread.
But in speaking of folks wanting two Eng BOFFs, what happens when you get to a third?I absolutely hate the Negh and Gal-R because of that third Eng Ensign. That's 8 Eng BOFF abilities you need to slot when there's only 14 different abilities in 8 groups.
You're basically looking at:
EPtS1, no higher level of EPtX/ET
EPtW/A1, no higher level of EPtX/ET
ET1
At least with only two, you could slot EPtX1/ET1 in the Ensign and go with a EPtX2 in one of the LT slots or if you were trying something, you could even drop EPtX3 in a LCdr slot. With only having two groups, having three Ensign slots kills any variety you may have with the rest of the slots.
For a ship w/just a Lt Sci. HE and TSS will most likely be what's selected w/HE pretty much required for the counter abilities. ST, PH, TBR, TB are reasonable options. But, most will be TSS and HE.
HE is pretty much required. The TSS will depend on the rest of the build. One could easily feel that it's covered elsewhere. If they're missing APO(s), then PH becomes an option. ST, even without the resistance of TSS, is an option because of what it clears. Both TB and TBR are viable options depending on the rest of the build and playstyle. TR for killing spam. Now they can DOFF SS for the recharge debuff. Etc, etc, etc... options galore...even with the HE being pretty much required.
For a ship w/just a Lt Tac TT is nearly required. This leaves APD or APB or BO2 or TSSx or TorpHY or TS or a Mine Pattern. This assumes Doffs for cyclying a single TT copy. Seems Tac has most flexibilty, but really in terms of impact TT is only one significant on ship w/just a Lt Tac. Personally, I tend to fly w/only one TT and use other means either piloting/turning, doffs, other boff abilities to open up other team options as debuff counters.
TT is another one that's all but considered necessary to have at least one. I've managed without it on a single ship with a Eng at the helm. With everything else it had in regard to heals and only having that LT Tac...it was better served doing something else and was more than manageable.
As for the the LT slot itself - yep, what weapons are you running - are you playing defensive - etc, etc, etc - options galore...even with the TT being all but required.
In the end while Ens Eng options aren't many they are very powerful options as are the Lt options.
What options? At the start of your reply, you basically listed EPtX and EPtY. 2 abilities out of 12, where EPtS is always going to be one of them. So it's really just 1 of 12 abilities, where that ability may very well end up being another EPtS. What options?
Again why does this hurt support cruisers or lead them to be underpowered?
It's not just about Support Cruisers though.
The OP's initial comparison is an Assault Cruiser vs. Patrol Escort. He then goes on to include the Assault, Star, and even the Ambassador in discussing high hull/low turn cruisers. He includes the non-Fed D'kora. He does not include BCs because of their turn.
Even Fed Cruisers is not just about Support Cruisers. I still find it odd that they decided to call the Ambassador a Support Cruiser. If anything, they should have renamed the Star Cruisers as Support Cruisers and made the Ambassador a Star Cruiser. That's neither here nor there though. There are Assault Cruisers, Star Cruisers, a Support Cruiser, and even Dreadnought Cruisers.
It's about the limited options for Ensign Engineering BOFFs, how that affects potential choices for additional ranks, and even how those additional ranked abilities may even pale in comparison to taking a higher rank of the same ability you took at Ensign.
And this is something that, while it has the worst effect on Cruisers/Cmdr-LCdr ships, it's something that's actually affecting all ships...
Okay, in my last post I said I was going to do a separate post on an idea that came to me. In looking back at the OP while completing my previous post, I saw the OP had already mentioned it:
or ( i love this one ) adding 4 innate emergy power to subsystem working almost the same as the innate beam targeting skills on science vessels
like : emergy power to shields, emergency power to engines, weapons and aux
these skills would have 1 minute cooldown and 30sec shared, giving +15 power to the subsystem and repairing it ( not sure if this integrated emergy power to shields would give shield points, but not shield resistance)
While the specifics of the innate abilities would need to be tossed about and tested, oddly enough - it seems pretty damn logical for the four EPt abilities to be innate abilities of Cruisers.
But wait, I thought I was looking for more - not less? Well, like I mentioned previously - HE and PH should be Eng abilities. There's also the option of dropping LT abilities down to EN...while also adding abilities, even potential variants of the EPt abilities...etc, etc, etc.
It's something that could both help Cruisers and even other ship captains...
I have built some really strong cruiser builds that give the best escort pilots a run for their money. The thing I have seen with running cruisers is that a escort can keep all guns on it at all times and do mass burst damage between tactical teams making it difficult to fight them. so in the end a good escort will always beat a good cruiser just because of that one issue. The cruiser cannot put out the damage to burst between the escorts tac teams.
I personally believe they are outclassed as far as pvp goes you can run a sci ship and put up about the same heals and damage but be more maneuverable and more survivable plus all the goodies that come with running a sci ship!
After watching a bunch of ST clips I decided to take the Fl. Excel out for a spin... and it turns out what Drunk says is absolutely true, it's extremely difficult to deal effective or sticky damage with beams these days. It's still kinda possible to kill stuff but you have to go straight up balls out, I mean full Tac buffs roaring, A2B juicing it hard, etc. I had a lot more success when I finally just switched to single cannons. Silly.
Cruisers are fine. Just escorts have too much surveability. A good escort player who has gear and passives, is impossible to kill for cruisers. keep in mind aiming 70 degree full broadside is much more harder than 45 degree for escort. and the full broadside drains so much energy the burst sucks. Irocanically engineering abilities like DEM sucks with beams as well.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I have built some really strong cruiser builds that give the best escort pilots a run for their money. The thing I have seen with running cruisers is that a escort can keep all guns on it at all times and do mass burst damage between tactical teams making it difficult to fight them. so in the end a good escort will always beat a good cruiser just because of that one issue. The cruiser cannot put out the damage to burst between the escorts tac teams.
I personally believe they are outclassed as far as pvp goes you can run a sci ship and put up about the same heals and damage but be more maneuverable and more survivable plus all the goodies that come with running a sci ship!
How do you lose to an Escort in a Cruiser? A Sciscort? Are they receiving outside healing from somebody that's also doing damage to you? Do they just outgear you that much? Did you build the Cruiser trying to get a fast kill instead of the attrition kill? Are they just the folks that you acknowledge could kill you if you were flying DS9 or a Unimatrix cause they're just that damn good?
I just don't get this.
Usually the Escort's going to disengage. They know they're not going to kill you and that eventually you're going to kill them. They might return with friends, they might return when you're in a weakened state to land the killing blow, or maybe they even hang around while calling in friends.
I get that some Cruisers just pop...poof...gone...but I've always wondered what the Hell they were doing or if they were simply not paying attention. I've been cloaked, following somebody in, I buff up, get ready to move after the other guys does...but poof - gone. I'm like WTF? Cause when you flip sides and are sitting in your cruiser, that same guy decloaks on you and...it's teehee, that tickled. WTF was that other guy that got popped doing?
The Cruiser should be able to beat the Escort...1on1...eventually. Give that Escort a Healer Cruiser, and your Cruiser's going to lose. You won't get through the healing from a dedicate healer and they're additional pressure damage will be enough for the duo to win in the end.
So you bring a Healer Cruiser too! Does that mean that once again that you can win out in the end? Nope, it won't be enough damage to kill them before the server goes down for weekly maintenance even if you start the fight right after it came back up.
Okay, so bring an Escort of your own! Nope, you're going to lose that fight. You won't have enough combined damage to take them out while you won't have the healing to win the extended fight.
Right here is where a lot of the "hate" for folks flying non-support Cruisers comes into play, imho... sure, the Cruiser is awesome if it's out there by itself. The more players you add into the mix, the weaker the non-support Cruiser becomes - with a sharp decline even when you go from 1v1 to 2v2 that only gets worse from there out.
You're not likely to find many Escortjocks that want to duel attrition Cruisers - the fights take too long, and honestly - sometimes the Cruiser simply wins because they've bored the Escort to death...subconsciously, they just give up (or maybe they even literally fall asleep).
It's where things come up about both Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers...being able to provide additional support to the team. So maybe the guy in the Cruiser's not bringing All Da Healz - but he's actually bringing something to the team.
Look at those BOFF abilities, eh?
Space:
EPtA (self)
EPtE (self)
EPtS (self)
EPtW (self)
ET (self/ally)
AtB (self)
AtD (self)
AtS (self/ally)
BP (target)
DEM (self)
Extend (ally)
RSP (self)
AB (target)
EWP (deployable AoE - offensive)
Yeah, you look at Space - you look at Ground - you look at Space - you look at Cryptic and SCREAM WTF????
The same happens with the captain's abilities. WTF, Cryptic, seriously, WTF?
Then you look at the Space abilities again - how many of those should be innate to ships in general or cruisers specifically? How many of those should be Tac or Sci? How many Tac or Sci should be Eng?
It's so broken on so many different levels, it would probably take a STO2.0 even to begin to address everything that's wrong with STO. Course, with the May Update...we're likely just to get more broken TRIBBLE layered on top of broken TRIBBLE... but maybe it will be shiny and green, eh?
Its because extra health doesn't matter for anything if you can't sustain it.
The resiliency of cruisers has to be in their damage resistance, so that you can outheal the damage dealt to you over the course of a sustained engagement.
Same goes for PvE in STFs - you might as well fly an escort if you aren't absolutely perfect in a cruiser. Extra damage is worth it if you're gonna die in 3 seconds anyway.
Its because extra health doesn't matter for anything if you can't sustain it.
The resiliency of cruisers has to be in their damage resistance, so that you can outheal the damage dealt to you over the course of a sustained engagement.
Same goes for PvE in STFs - you might as well fly an escort if you aren't absolutely perfect in a cruiser. Extra damage is worth it if you're gonna die in 3 seconds anyway.
And the funniest part about this, imho...is the diminishing returns on resists that doesn't exist on damage.
If they adjusted issues with yo-yo healing, innate passive healing, and the crazy strong interaction between defense and movement speed I'd like to see Cruisers that have literally 2-3 times more hull capacity. A Cruisers mass should be more obvious in ways other than just their inertia values.
I think someone mentioned altering Beam arrays to fire a single shot per cycle and I like it. But I've been saying it for a while. Cryptic could still calculate the damage as they do now (all the math, number of hits and misses, etc) then apply that damage in a single longer lasting strike. If one of the current multiple shots would have missed, that will reduce the overall impact of the single beam that is fire but it would be more powerful if all were calculated to be a hit. It would add some spike punch, the power levels should function closer to the mechanics of DHCs, and it would look much more like the show. FAW could work, at least graphically, the same way it does now. The disco effect is totally harshing my immersion.
And yes, diminishing returns on Tactical Consoles only makes sense at this point.
I don't miss "Cruisers Online" or FAWscorts but I can recognize the need for some adjustments.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
I have to agree with Hale that the beam firing rate ruins the mood just visually alone. It's really, really fast and when you're cranking 7 - 8 beams it looks ridiculous, like some kind of strobe light porcupine having a seizure.
Up single beam base damage moderately, reduce the firing cycle to one-per-second (like DHCs). Hell even if they just kept the base damage as-is and slashed the cycle I'd be happy, at least you wouldn't be getting ***** by drain to the point where even Engie cap abilities struggle to keep up.
My cruiser certainly is very cool. Everyone is targeting it in PvP.
Mine too:P cruisers are the favorite target for escorts :mad: A eng capitan in a cruiser has little dmg and little healing" most of which are hull heals" and when the other team like wolves attack him he goes boom
Defiant has X of the Sovereign...
4.57% the Volume
11.07% the Mass
6.25% the Crew
242.86% the Turn
133.33% the Impulse Modifier
233.33% the Inertia
76.92% the Hull
I don't miss "Cruisers Online" or FAWscorts but I can recognize the need for some adjustments.
Yep, even in the discussions - it tends to be extremes. If you want to make the slightest adjustment, it's taken to some extreme that you want things to shift from the current broken state to some previous broken state...
...usually it's just a case of not wanting the game in any broken state.
Your stats didn't take into consideration "effective" hull/shields through upper tier heals that Cruisers have access to and Escorts do not.
Who has more effective total hull?
The Defiant with 1 Neutronium, and 1 HE for hull heals.
or
The Sovereign with 3 Neutroniums, HE 1, Aux to SIF 3, ET 3.
Obviously the Cruiser could also be tossing those heals to an allied Escort giving them highe effective hull.
I'm just trying to envision the game wondering if fighting a handful of cruisers that each have 200k hull and 50k shields per facing would even be remotely fun.
If they adjusted issues with yo-yo healing, innate passive healing, and the crazy strong interaction between defense and movement speed I'd like to see Cruisers that have literally 2-3 times more hull capacity. A Cruisers mass should be more obvious in ways other than just their inertia values.
Wouldn't that just be turning Cruisers into the Borg?
What you're describing seems to be bringing PCs closer to NPCs.
If Cruisers were turned into the Borg as they are represented in this game then that truly would be a nerf, lol.
I think I get your meaning though. The concern is that the Borg are made "more difficult" by boosting their base stats like hull, shields, damage, etc. If that is all that happened it really would be awful. That's why something needs to be done with yoyo healing and all of the innate passive healing (now passive heals are something that the Borg should have more of :x).
The basic idea is that, if cool downs on abilities like heals were reasonable, your cruiser could take a beating but healing up to 100% instantly would be a tremendous strain on your resources. Even if your entire team was healing you then all of those heals are suddenly out of play (or would need to be used more tactically). Or maybe as they did with fighting games for over 20 years, you can only heal so much damage while in battle, even with innate skills or HoTs. Some portion of damage would have to stick no matter what heals were used (while in combat). Incidentally, that's how it should really be across the board in my opinion.
I know it's a lot of work and that there are many details that would need to be ironed out. I think it would be an interesting idea although I know it's not a particularly likely one.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Your stats didn't take into consideration "effective" hull/shields through upper tier heals that Cruisers have access to and Escorts do not.
Who has more effective total hull?
The Defiant with 1 Neutronium, and 1 HE for hull heals.
or
The Sovereign with 3 Neutroniums, HE 1, Aux to SIF 3, ET 3.
Not everything needs to be represented directly in base stats.
Fleet Defiant
2x APO1 or APO1/APO3
TT1 or 2x TT1
EPtS1
AtS1
HE1 or HE2
TSS1 or TSS2
RCS or Tachyokinetic
Neut
SIF
FG
Emitter
Sacrificing one of the 5 Tac Consoles for Borg
MACO Shield/Deflector
Aegis Engines (Hyper w/+5% Defense)
TT Conn DOFFs, AtS DCE DOFF, BFI SDO DOFF?
+10% Defense (Escort)
Fleet Regent
APO1
TT1 or 2x TT1
EPtS1
EPtA1
ET3
RSP1
AtD1
AtS3
HE1 or HE2
TSS1 or TSS2
2x Neut
SIF
Borg
FG
Emitter
MACO Shield/Deflector
Aegis Engines (Hyper w/+5% Defense)
EPt DCE DOFFs, ET ME DOFF, BFI SDO DOFF
Both with an Eng Captain, eh? Both with Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Hull-Reparing Nanites, and Superior Shield Repair? Both with 5x Human BOFFs?
With Hull, Shields, Turn, Regens, etc, etc, etc being the same allotment of skill points between the two Captains and then applied to the stats.
edit: I have neither the Fleet Defiant nor Fleet Regent, but I can drop my Fed Eng in an Advanced Escort, Chel Grett Warship, Mirror Assault Cruiser, Mirror Star Cruiser, or Ambassador...to provide more than just base stats. Can tell you right now, though, he's in the Chel Grett.
Comments
I still find it funny, that it's 6 pts in a T5 Tactical skill so an Engineer can train DEM3. I suppose that gets into their fuzzy balancing.
any cruiser your trying to deal damage with more then heal should proboly be using a tech doff skill. then only 1 copy of CRF has about the up time of 2 copies. the excelsior could already have 2 copies of CRF too. your damage is still short bus levels, nothing without DHCs deals real pain
It's not the Cmdr/LCdr rank ability slots themselves. It's the abilities available on the way up.
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
When you only have 5 abilities to choose from for the Ensign slots, where 4 of the 5 are in the same group, you don't have many choices.
So you move on to LT slots. There are 7 new abilities. 3 in one group, 2 in another group, and 2 not in a group. You can also take R2 of those 5 Ensign abilities - they're still in the same groups they were at R1 though.
If you took EPtS1 and EPtW1, it's unlikely that you're going to take another EPt at LT. Maybe you took one EPt1 and ET1 and you'll take another EPt2 at LT. So you've still got the choice of one of those 7 new abilities.
So you move on to the LCdr slots. There are 2 new abilities. They don't share a group. Overall, you have a choice of 14 abilities for each of those LCdr slots. There are 8 groups for those 14 abilities. Doesn't sound too bad. Well, you've already picked 4 abilities that may have resulted in 2 abilities in each group. There's nothing saying that you can't use 3 from the same group. With Eng BOFF abilities though, the way the CDs work - odds are something's just going to be sitting there unused. Also, certain rotations of two abilities almost precludes the use of a third.
Btw, don't forget that ET's sharing space with TT and ST.
And then you've got that final Cmdr slot. 7 abilities (9 if you count the R2s as well as the R3s). No new abilities - no new groups. Depending on what you've selected along the way, you may have limited your effective choices.
Compare that to Tac or Sci. Tac has more choices and abilities, but it's going to be limited by weapons. Sci has more choices and abilities than even Tac, but it's going to be limited by skill build. Eng's limited by simply being limited in choices and abilities, but it's also further limited by weapons and skill build as well.
Is it too much to ask that each of the groups have a similar amount of choices - with those choices being balanced by opportunity cost. Tac should have more. Eng should definitely have more. Those "more" shouldn't just be awesomemegabonus time - they should still present some opportunity cost.
If you've got X skills and Y weapons, then Z are your choices. Whether it's Tac or Eng. Sci's obviously going to be that special case since it's so heavily tied into skills.
It's even been suggested in similar discussions that only Ensign rank or En/Lt rank abilities be added. Even if you could only take R1 or R1/2 of something - that still has that opportunity cost either in other ability selection, weapon choice, or skill build - it could go a long way not only improving Cruisers...but improving any vessel that has at least one Engineering BOFF slot.
My Fed Eng flies a Chel Gret - Escort.
My KDF Eng flies a Mirror Vor'cha/Kamarag - Battle Cruiser.
My Fed Sci flies a Mirror RSV - Science.
My KDF Tac flies a Mirror Vo'quv - Carrier.
The only toon that comes close to filling the stereotypical role is the Fed Sci. Course, I doubt he could kill you if you were AFK. However, the Tac/Tac next to him could kill you pressing his spacebar with his pinkytoe while eating Cheetos and watching a movie. That's the closest any of them come to the stereotypical role. (And no, that's not a challenge - it's not a specific "you" - it's just the generic you as in somebody.)
The KDF Tac's actually the closest thing to a healer out of that group. She'll drop FoMM on whatever target's been called or needs it, she'll TI teammates, and isn't stingy with the heals. I feel safer with the GDF with that much hull than on an Escort as well. It's funny seeing how much hull you have left even at 30%.
I DPS with both Engineers - though the KDF Eng will also tank in PvE or bait in PUGland. The Chel's sporting Beams and the Vor'cha/Kamarag are using torps.
I'm fully aware that a Tac could do more damage in the Chel Grett than the Eng can.
I'm fully aware that the Eng could do more damage with DHCs than Beams.
The Tac's also more likely to die than the Eng though.
With DHCs you're fighting for positioning to use them which can leave you exposed - with the Beams, they're doing their thing while I'm making sure I'm not exposed.
Tac/Tac have a tendency to disengage and run away. So much has been min/maxed around trying to deliver that alpha... I try to min/max to go "oh that tickled" at the alpha while winning a battle of attrition. If I was a Tac in that Chel Grett and using DHCs... man, I'd probably have quit by now - dying too much and doing garbage for damage because of it. I don't though. I'm an Eng in it with Beams. I plod along - have fun - then I'm outnumbered or a Sci's making me call him daddy...and then I respawn.
That's not a VD's awesome by any means. There are folks out there that would shred me regardless of what I'm flying. Hell, there's folks out there that would shred me and any friends I brought along. They're effin' awesome.
But yeah, all that aside - I agree that folks should look at their playstyle - what they want to do - and plan accordingly. That doesn't mean folks can't look at something and see there's something wrong with it.
I hate posting in these threads at times, because I often feel that I get lumped in with all the crazies. No genuine offense meant to them, but c'mon - they're freaking loons.
For damage:
Tac > Eng
Escort > Cruiser
Which means Tac/Escort > Eng/Escort & Tac/Cruiser > Eng/Cruiser. Eng/Escort vs. Tac/Cruiser...that's a tough one. Heh, Eng/Bug > Tac/Star Cruiser. That's safe, right?
I don't buy into the Eng should be able to do the same damage as the Tac. I don't buy into the Cruiser should be able to do the same damage as the Escort.
Doesn't mean I don't see problems with Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers. Heck, I think even Tac Captains and Tac BOFFs need some love. Sci? Yeah, they need some love from the Eng and Tac Captains in their Cruisers and Escorts.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Would the Fed Cruiser's turn rate be an issue if the Escort's turn rate couldn't go as high as it can?
Is 7-12 really that bad compared to 15-25?
Or is it when it's the 7-12 vs. 30-40+?
Well you do have to take into consideration the silliness that is AP:O/RCS consoles. For some inane reason they scale percentage-wise, rather than a flat additive, meaning that that escort will actually get more (a lot more) out of an RCS than will that Fed snoozer or what have you.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I've always thought that was a problem. It actually makes it so that if your stuck with one of the more sluggish ships, the RCS console has less benefit. You'd think that the ships with the most need of some extra turning would benefit most by adding some, but generally speaking they're better off piling on armor since they can't modify their turn by enough to matter anyway.
I kind of think RCS consoles and abilities which modify turn ought to be based on ships with a 10 turn rate. So a console which adds 35% now, would add a flat +3.5 instead no matter which ship it's put on. Or if you wanted base it on ships with a 12 turn (typical for science ships) which would give +4.2 for the same console. The point is that a flat addition would encourage RCS consoles to be used to compensate for crappy turning rather than to min/max ships with already exceptional turning.
Ens: EPTS1, EPTA1 or EPTW1 or EPTE1 (probably aux for support build)
Lt: ET2 x 1 or 2, Aux2damp (if needed vs stun heavy team)
LtCmdr:ES2, Aux2Sif2 or ES2
Cmr: ES3 or Aux2Sif3 or ET3
Doffs:Eptx cooldown reducing doffs, ES doff(s), and/or maint doff(s)
For variety add in EWP w/doffs, or DEM w/doffs.
Again these ships (Fed support cruisers) are meant to repair.
T4 passives/rom sci consoles aside, pressure damage cruisers are different. They don't have 2 tac consoles for starters. To me I just can get past using the right tool for the job, instead of trying to redesign a tool away from what it was originally built for. I don't see anything in Eng Boff layouts that prevents them from doing this role.
Escort > Cruiser depends on the escort and cruiser in question and the type of damage desired. This thread has focused on Fed support cruisers, not BCs nor hybrids. I still haven't seen anything wrong w/cruisers even if I conceded the Eng Boff issue which I don't.
Eng Captains sure.
Pressure DPS w/all the new passive repair procs and FT shield resistance procs, sure.
Eng Boff powers, no.
Cruisers, no.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
This goes back to faction balance. KDF, including BCs, were designed for Hit and Run tactics. They need to be better vs the Feds in order to keep that tactic viable.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
In the days before lockboxes and fleet vessels you might have had half a point. However, any niche that Fed snoozers may have once fit has been completely eroded by cross-faction/fleet ships that outclass them both at healing/protection (Wells, Recluse) and sustained damage or maneuverability (pretty much every Klinkydink snoozer). Even on a stat-by-stat basis Fed snoozers are terribly outclassed: the Fl. Vorcha has a frankly ridonkulous 1.1 mod to the Fleet Stargazer's .94, for instance).
Some moar evidence that considering Cryptic calls themselves DS9 fanboys, they must've been watching a different show to the one I did (pay close attention to each appearance of a Galaxy class in the clip):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWi-pJLO2m4
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
It's not just Cruisers, though - it's those Ensign Engineering BOFFs.
If there's just a single Lt Eng BOFF - is that going to vary much from ship to ship? Compare that to Tac or Sci.
Lt and En? How much variety are you looking at? Compare to Tac and Sci?
It's almost always going to be the same abilities selected for the Engineering BOFFs. How many are you going to change depending on if you're doing Support, Tanking, or "Pressure" Damage?
Then look at the sheer variety for Tacs. Are you using Cannons? Are you using Beams? Are you using Torps? Are you using Mines? Are you using a mix? Going to run dual TT or have you DOFF'd TT to run one and boost APs because you don't want to run 3+ Teams? Are you running dual APO or just one because you're using PH from Sci as well?
Look at it for Sci... and it makes Tacs look limited in choice.
Go back to Eng, eh?
EPtA for support or EPtW for pressure.
ES for support or DEM for pressure.
Where does BP fit in? What about AB? What about higher ranks or lower ranks of other abilities?
It's not just a case of having a more limited selection of both abilities and groups - it's also a case that some of the abilities simply don't fit in with anything outside of playing in your sleep through replay missions.
What Cruiser should use AB3?
What Cruiser should use BP3?
What Cruiser should use EPtA3?
I still can't get past the feeling that they created Tacs/Escorts, Sci/SVs, and then added in Eng/Cruisers.
Look at SVs. Subsystem Targeting? So they have innate Tac BOFF abilities? Sensor Analysis? You mean something that a Tac bridge officer might be doing in the shows or movies?
Look at Sci BOFF abilities. HE? Screams Engineering. PH? Screams Engineering.
But then again, RSP/ES both scream Science. Boarding Party screams Tactical.
One can easily go through and see where things are mixed up in various areas. They're just things that have always bugged me.
While so many folks are off wanting the Cruisers to be Escorts - I've just done my best /picard while looking at everything else...
1st KDF don't have snoozer Cruisers. The closest they have is a the Carrier which aside form the Brel is all they get for decent sci options. The target of the repairs matter which is why Fed Escorts are better. Feds have better Sci, Escort, and Support Cruiser options including Fleet ships. KDF have better heavy pressure DPS Cruisers, they have weak Raiders, and the Vet ship a Raider/Destoyer hybrid.
Lotto ships are by in large designed to be better than all others. This doesn't mean other ships can't fill their roles. The blurring of the factions has less to do w/this and more w/Feds having options for mounting cannons on all ship types and options for pets on all ship types.
But, none of this means Fed support Cruisers are underpowered.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Lets stick w/a ship a single lt eng slot. Eptx and Epty and doffs to reduce cooldowns. One of the Ept will be shields. This leaves 3 options for the 2nd slot. W/o Doffs it's 2x EPTS. Eitherway, other than TT distribution power, imo, this is the most powerful low end Boff slot and it's why so many want more than 1 low Eng slot.
For a ship w/just a Lt Sci. HE and TSS will most likely be what's selected w/HE pretty much required for the counter abilities. ST, PH, TBR, TB are reasonable options. But, most will be TSS and HE.
For a ship w/just a Lt Tac TT is nearly required. This leaves APD or APB or BO2 or TSSx or TorpHY or TS or a Mine Pattern. This assumes Doffs for cyclying a single TT copy. Seems Tac has most flexibilty, but really in terms of impact TT is only one significant on ship w/just a Lt Tac. Personally, I tend to fly w/only one TT and use other means either piloting/turning, doffs, other boff abilities to open up other team options as debuff counters.
In the end while Ens Eng options aren't many they are very powerful options as are the Lt options.
Again why does this hurt support cruisers or lead them to be underpowered?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
This is just a bad defiant pilot, most likely someone who's not using hyper impulse engines and or putting power to engines.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Yep, 2 is better than one. I tend to run EPtS1, EPtW1, AtS1 or EPtS1, ET1, AtS1. Thing is, with those, there's not going to be much variety beyond that. There are only a couple of the abilities that have any value compared to the others depending on what you're doing.
I mean, you've laid out pretty much what everybody's going to run. 12 different abilities with 6 groups, but pretty much everybody's going to run 2 from the same group. That's an issue. I've just had an idea, that I'm to post as a separate post in this thread.
But in speaking of folks wanting two Eng BOFFs, what happens when you get to a third?I absolutely hate the Negh and Gal-R because of that third Eng Ensign. That's 8 Eng BOFF abilities you need to slot when there's only 14 different abilities in 8 groups.
You're basically looking at:
EPtS1, no higher level of EPtX/ET
EPtW/A1, no higher level of EPtX/ET
ET1
At least with only two, you could slot EPtX1/ET1 in the Ensign and go with a EPtX2 in one of the LT slots or if you were trying something, you could even drop EPtX3 in a LCdr slot. With only having two groups, having three Ensign slots kills any variety you may have with the rest of the slots.
HE is pretty much required. The TSS will depend on the rest of the build. One could easily feel that it's covered elsewhere. If they're missing APO(s), then PH becomes an option. ST, even without the resistance of TSS, is an option because of what it clears. Both TB and TBR are viable options depending on the rest of the build and playstyle. TR for killing spam. Now they can DOFF SS for the recharge debuff. Etc, etc, etc... options galore...even with the HE being pretty much required.
TT is another one that's all but considered necessary to have at least one. I've managed without it on a single ship with a Eng at the helm. With everything else it had in regard to heals and only having that LT Tac...it was better served doing something else and was more than manageable.
As for the the LT slot itself - yep, what weapons are you running - are you playing defensive - etc, etc, etc - options galore...even with the TT being all but required.
What options? At the start of your reply, you basically listed EPtX and EPtY. 2 abilities out of 12, where EPtS is always going to be one of them. So it's really just 1 of 12 abilities, where that ability may very well end up being another EPtS. What options?
It's not just about Support Cruisers though.
The OP's initial comparison is an Assault Cruiser vs. Patrol Escort. He then goes on to include the Assault, Star, and even the Ambassador in discussing high hull/low turn cruisers. He includes the non-Fed D'kora. He does not include BCs because of their turn.
Even Fed Cruisers is not just about Support Cruisers. I still find it odd that they decided to call the Ambassador a Support Cruiser. If anything, they should have renamed the Star Cruisers as Support Cruisers and made the Ambassador a Star Cruiser. That's neither here nor there though. There are Assault Cruisers, Star Cruisers, a Support Cruiser, and even Dreadnought Cruisers.
It's about the limited options for Ensign Engineering BOFFs, how that affects potential choices for additional ranks, and even how those additional ranked abilities may even pale in comparison to taking a higher rank of the same ability you took at Ensign.
And this is something that, while it has the worst effect on Cruisers/Cmdr-LCdr ships, it's something that's actually affecting all ships...
While the specifics of the innate abilities would need to be tossed about and tested, oddly enough - it seems pretty damn logical for the four EPt abilities to be innate abilities of Cruisers.
But wait, I thought I was looking for more - not less? Well, like I mentioned previously - HE and PH should be Eng abilities. There's also the option of dropping LT abilities down to EN...while also adding abilities, even potential variants of the EPt abilities...etc, etc, etc.
It's something that could both help Cruisers and even other ship captains...
...but inevitably it will fall on deaf ears.
I personally believe they are outclassed as far as pvp goes you can run a sci ship and put up about the same heals and damage but be more maneuverable and more survivable plus all the goodies that come with running a sci ship!
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
How do you lose to an Escort in a Cruiser? A Sciscort? Are they receiving outside healing from somebody that's also doing damage to you? Do they just outgear you that much? Did you build the Cruiser trying to get a fast kill instead of the attrition kill? Are they just the folks that you acknowledge could kill you if you were flying DS9 or a Unimatrix cause they're just that damn good?
I just don't get this.
Usually the Escort's going to disengage. They know they're not going to kill you and that eventually you're going to kill them. They might return with friends, they might return when you're in a weakened state to land the killing blow, or maybe they even hang around while calling in friends.
I get that some Cruisers just pop...poof...gone...but I've always wondered what the Hell they were doing or if they were simply not paying attention. I've been cloaked, following somebody in, I buff up, get ready to move after the other guys does...but poof - gone. I'm like WTF? Cause when you flip sides and are sitting in your cruiser, that same guy decloaks on you and...it's teehee, that tickled. WTF was that other guy that got popped doing?
The Cruiser should be able to beat the Escort...1on1...eventually. Give that Escort a Healer Cruiser, and your Cruiser's going to lose. You won't get through the healing from a dedicate healer and they're additional pressure damage will be enough for the duo to win in the end.
So you bring a Healer Cruiser too! Does that mean that once again that you can win out in the end? Nope, it won't be enough damage to kill them before the server goes down for weekly maintenance even if you start the fight right after it came back up.
Okay, so bring an Escort of your own! Nope, you're going to lose that fight. You won't have enough combined damage to take them out while you won't have the healing to win the extended fight.
Right here is where a lot of the "hate" for folks flying non-support Cruisers comes into play, imho... sure, the Cruiser is awesome if it's out there by itself. The more players you add into the mix, the weaker the non-support Cruiser becomes - with a sharp decline even when you go from 1v1 to 2v2 that only gets worse from there out.
You're not likely to find many Escortjocks that want to duel attrition Cruisers - the fights take too long, and honestly - sometimes the Cruiser simply wins because they've bored the Escort to death...subconsciously, they just give up (or maybe they even literally fall asleep).
It's where things come up about both Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers...being able to provide additional support to the team. So maybe the guy in the Cruiser's not bringing All Da Healz - but he's actually bringing something to the team.
Look at those BOFF abilities, eh?
Space:
EPtA (self)
EPtE (self)
EPtS (self)
EPtW (self)
ET (self/ally)
AtB (self)
AtD (self)
AtS (self/ally)
BP (target)
DEM (self)
Extend (ally)
RSP (self)
AB (target)
EWP (deployable AoE - offensive)
Ground:
CMB (deployable AoE - offensive)
QF (self/ally)
SR (self/ally)
WM (target)
RPS (self)
SGF (deployable AoE - defensive)
TF (deployable - offensive)
CF (deployable - defensive)
ED (self/ally)
MGF (deployable - defensive)
QMF (deployable - offensive)
CS (self/allies)
FA (target)
SDF (pet summon)
Yeah, you look at Space - you look at Ground - you look at Space - you look at Cryptic and SCREAM WTF????
The same happens with the captain's abilities. WTF, Cryptic, seriously, WTF?
Then you look at the Space abilities again - how many of those should be innate to ships in general or cruisers specifically? How many of those should be Tac or Sci? How many Tac or Sci should be Eng?
It's so broken on so many different levels, it would probably take a STO2.0 even to begin to address everything that's wrong with STO. Course, with the May Update...we're likely just to get more broken TRIBBLE layered on top of broken TRIBBLE... but maybe it will be shiny and green, eh?
The resiliency of cruisers has to be in their damage resistance, so that you can outheal the damage dealt to you over the course of a sustained engagement.
Same goes for PvE in STFs - you might as well fly an escort if you aren't absolutely perfect in a cruiser. Extra damage is worth it if you're gonna die in 3 seconds anyway.
And the funniest part about this, imho...is the diminishing returns on resists that doesn't exist on damage.
4 tac consoles vs. 4 eng consoles.
I think someone mentioned altering Beam arrays to fire a single shot per cycle and I like it. But I've been saying it for a while. Cryptic could still calculate the damage as they do now (all the math, number of hits and misses, etc) then apply that damage in a single longer lasting strike. If one of the current multiple shots would have missed, that will reduce the overall impact of the single beam that is fire but it would be more powerful if all were calculated to be a hit. It would add some spike punch, the power levels should function closer to the mechanics of DHCs, and it would look much more like the show. FAW could work, at least graphically, the same way it does now. The disco effect is totally harshing my immersion.
And yes, diminishing returns on Tactical Consoles only makes sense at this point.
I don't miss "Cruisers Online" or FAWscorts but I can recognize the need for some adjustments.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
Up single beam base damage moderately, reduce the firing cycle to one-per-second (like DHCs). Hell even if they just kept the base damage as-is and slashed the cycle I'd be happy, at least you wouldn't be getting ***** by drain to the point where even Engie cap abilities struggle to keep up.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Mine too:P cruisers are the favorite target for escorts :mad: A eng capitan in a cruiser has little dmg and little healing" most of which are hull heals" and when the other team like wolves attack him he goes boom
Defiant:
Length - 170.68 meters
Width - 134.11 meters
Height - 30.1 meters
Mass - 355,000 metric tons
Decks - 4
Crew - ~50
...Volume: 688,985.83 m^3
Sovereign:
Length - 685 meters
Width - 250 meters
Height - 88 meters
Mass - 3,205,000 metric tons
Decks - 24
Crew - ~900
...Volume: 15,070,000 m^3
Fleet Defiant Retrofit:
Hull - 33000
Turn - 17
Impulse - 0.20
Inertia - 70
Crew - 50
Fleet Regent:
Hull - 42900
Turn - 7
Impulse - 0.15
Inertia - 30
Crew - 800
Defiant has X of the Sovereign...
4.57% the Volume
11.07% the Mass
6.25% the Crew
242.86% the Turn
133.33% the Impulse Modifier
233.33% the Inertia
76.92% the Hull
Yep, even in the discussions - it tends to be extremes. If you want to make the slightest adjustment, it's taken to some extreme that you want things to shift from the current broken state to some previous broken state...
...usually it's just a case of not wanting the game in any broken state.
Your stats didn't take into consideration "effective" hull/shields through upper tier heals that Cruisers have access to and Escorts do not.
Who has more effective total hull?
The Defiant with 1 Neutronium, and 1 HE for hull heals.
or
The Sovereign with 3 Neutroniums, HE 1, Aux to SIF 3, ET 3.
Obviously the Cruiser could also be tossing those heals to an allied Escort giving them highe effective hull.
I'm just trying to envision the game wondering if fighting a handful of cruisers that each have 200k hull and 50k shields per facing would even be remotely fun.
Wouldn't that just be turning Cruisers into the Borg?
What you're describing seems to be bringing PCs closer to NPCs.
I think I get your meaning though. The concern is that the Borg are made "more difficult" by boosting their base stats like hull, shields, damage, etc. If that is all that happened it really would be awful. That's why something needs to be done with yoyo healing and all of the innate passive healing (now passive heals are something that the Borg should have more of :x).
The basic idea is that, if cool downs on abilities like heals were reasonable, your cruiser could take a beating but healing up to 100% instantly would be a tremendous strain on your resources. Even if your entire team was healing you then all of those heals are suddenly out of play (or would need to be used more tactically). Or maybe as they did with fighting games for over 20 years, you can only heal so much damage while in battle, even with innate skills or HoTs. Some portion of damage would have to stick no matter what heals were used (while in combat). Incidentally, that's how it should really be across the board in my opinion.
I know it's a lot of work and that there are many details that would need to be ironed out. I think it would be an interesting idea although I know it's not a particularly likely one.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
Fleet Defiant
2x APO1 or APO1/APO3
TT1 or 2x TT1
EPtS1
AtS1
HE1 or HE2
TSS1 or TSS2
RCS or Tachyokinetic
Neut
SIF
FG
Emitter
Sacrificing one of the 5 Tac Consoles for Borg
MACO Shield/Deflector
Aegis Engines (Hyper w/+5% Defense)
TT Conn DOFFs, AtS DCE DOFF, BFI SDO DOFF?
+10% Defense (Escort)
Fleet Regent
APO1
TT1 or 2x TT1
EPtS1
EPtA1
ET3
RSP1
AtD1
AtS3
HE1 or HE2
TSS1 or TSS2
2x Neut
SIF
Borg
FG
Emitter
MACO Shield/Deflector
Aegis Engines (Hyper w/+5% Defense)
EPt DCE DOFFs, ET ME DOFF, BFI SDO DOFF
Both with an Eng Captain, eh? Both with Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Hull-Reparing Nanites, and Superior Shield Repair? Both with 5x Human BOFFs?
With Hull, Shields, Turn, Regens, etc, etc, etc being the same allotment of skill points between the two Captains and then applied to the stats.
edit: I have neither the Fleet Defiant nor Fleet Regent, but I can drop my Fed Eng in an Advanced Escort, Chel Grett Warship, Mirror Assault Cruiser, Mirror Star Cruiser, or Ambassador...to provide more than just base stats. Can tell you right now, though, he's in the Chel Grett.