there are carriers with 7 weapon slots, the karfi and the jem dread, the rest have 6 because they are sci carriers, but i think prime got a point here, but not because of hull or turn rate, but because of boff / console layout
i dont choose cruisers because of the plating consoles
assuming a fast ship with 5 tac consoles and a slow ship with 5 eng consoles
while the tac consoles stack, because its a % base dmg added, the plating consoles dont stack as a percentage, they stack using a formula to not allow plating to reach more than 75%, its impossible, so:
(assuming mk xii purple consoles)
5 tac consoles : +150% of the damage
5 eng plating consoles: ( 40 dmg res magnitude each console)
1 console : 28% damage resistance
2 consoles: 43% dmg res
3 consoles: 51%
4 consoles : 57%
5 consoles: 61%
what you prefer ? 5 tac consoles and 3 engineering on a fast ship
or 5 engineering and 3 tac on a slow ship ( loosing the turn rate, loosing 60%+ damage and winning a mer 10%dmg resistance ) ? come on ! stop saying cruisers are ok ... where in the world 10% resistance is the same as 60% more dmg and higher turn rate ?
so they not only get limited on the boff layout, but on the consoles too, you only benefit 10% between 3 consoles and 5 consoles, so yes 3 plating consoles is the "sweet point" of plating, which escorts can easely get, while mastering the dmg with the rest of tac consoles and heal skills because you dont need the rest of the sci / eng TRIBBLE.
On the remaining eng console of a cruiser slots you would put an rcs ? an universal console ? that is a waste, because escorts dont need an rcs console, so i think like the other guy said, increase the console ammount of cruisers by 1 eng console slot, could be cool, but very... not probable xD
for example, an escort build ( attack ) you ... well, just use it against anything, a heal build is different, you have to adapt it, 2 reverses wont do anything against a torpedo boat, youd rather use aux2damp for example, in sci officers the same happens, gravity well wont work that great against escorts, so you would use a feedbackpulse or a viral matrix, in dmg deal builds you dont need to adapt, you just use it and hope your dps is the biggest, you only need to change your heals, escorts win all the time, if you notice, things are this way = beginners: cruisers, intermediate : sci vessels, veterans : escorts, its almost this way, escorts win, thats the point, you dont see many players winning with cruisers or sci vessels, tactical ships / skills / layouts are better compared to the others, dot.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
If you're in combat or combat range while APO is on CD then you're doing it wrong.
Running two copies + AP Doff's significantly reduces the time away from the fight to next to nothing.
I remember back in the day when an Escort was taking damage, it would flee and be well out of visual range and wouldn't see it again for quite some time. Now they can just hover at around 11km for a couple seconds and come back for another go.
at this point i really think DHCs TT, and ES should be removed from the game completely. it would be interesting to see some premades face off banning these things and to see what they think.
Huh. If I was at a loss for words it wouldn't be me would it? But this makes me close. Very close to being at a loss. Then there was some bit about APO combined with Doffs reducing cooldowns a few posts later on.
Yah think?
You take the TT ability out and you really do need to take CRF out as well. ES who cares. All the shield buffs outside of RSP only really work well in the prescence of TT. That's a fact. Work WELL. Not AT ALL. Read carefully. A ship without TT may have to stack a couple shield resistances to have the same level of comfort that TT and any other shield ability gives. But then you get to why we need TT to do what it does, and it isn't just simply DHC's. There's a REASON DHC's can do what they do.
And APO. Hmmmm....who would think that just driving the cooldowns to the level where you could increase uptime of any ability and only use one copy of that ability could EVER be a good call to make? Seriously. Yah lets just double **** up and maybe no one will notice! Cooldowns are a core component of balance and such a degree of foolhardiness shouldn't even be discussed. It should be corrected.
If you're in combat or combat range while APO is on CD then you're doing it wrong.
Running two copies + AP Doff's significantly reduces the time away from the fight to next to nothing.
I remember back in the day when an Escort was taking damage, it would flee and be well out of visual range and wouldn't see it again for quite some time. Now they can just hover at around 11km for a couple seconds and come back for another go.
Spot on.
And just because only a few people are doing it, or doing it right, doesn't make it okay. Rarity isn't balance. Balance is balance. Good design is good design. Other things are excuses.
It will never go back to the way it was. At first I hated the idea of doffs, but I have accepted that aren't going to go away.
Cryptic just doesn't care about anything other than keeping the interest of the lemmings opening boxes, so we'll keep seeing even worse iterations of doffs in the future.
Why? The idea that Escorts can take alot of damage is false. Escorts can deflect a lot of damage but only for short amount of time. Its compounded by the fact that Escorts tend to kill thier foes before they loose that safety of bouncing incomming damage.
Remove the movement protection of ApO and one aspect that has given the false impression of ubertoughness of the Escort is gone.
The great wealness of Escorts have always been stopping them in thier tracks. Something that currently has been partially removed thanks to ApO being a minor PH.
Frankly I never why it needed both a defensive buff and movement protection buff.
assuming a fast ship with 5 tac consoles and a slow ship with 5 eng consoles
while the tac consoles stack, because its a % base dmg added, the plating consoles dont stack as a percentage, they stack using a formula to not allow plating to reach more than 75%, its impossible, so:
assuming mk xii purple consoles
5 tac consoles : +150% of the damage
5 eng plating consoles: ( 40 dmg res magnitude each console)
1 console : 28% damage resistance
2 consoles: 43% dmg res
3 consoles: 51%
4 consoles : 57%
5 consoles: 61%
what you prefer ? 5 tac consoles and 3 engineering on a fast ship
or 5 engineer consoles and 3 tac on a slow ship loosing the turn rate, loosing 60% damage but winning a mere 10%dmg resistance ?
come on ! stop saying cruisers are ok ... where in the world low turn rate and 10% dmg resistance is the same as 60% more dmg and higher turn rate ?
those words are so right, more than 3 engineering consoles is almost useless on pvp in cruisers while you get useless boff layouts too
yes escorts can tank, speed tank ( which almost compensate that little less hull compared to cruisers ),and if you add all those free procs, heals, buffs and stuff you get from sets, tiers, doffs and all kinda stuff like that, escorts benefit more from that than cruisers. Escorts tank almost the same as cruisers, because 20% resistance on escorts is the same on cruisers, 20% of placate is the same, 10% of crit is the same, so why you need a cruiser ? go for the escort, deals 1000000000x more damage and tanks the same
Remove the movement protection of Attack Pattern Omega and one aspect that has given the false impression of ubertoughness of the Escort is gone.
The great wealness of Escorts have always been stopping them in their tracks. Something that currently has been partially removed thanks to Attack Pattern Omega being a minor Polarize Hull.
Frankly I never why it needed both a defensive buff and movement protection buff.
true story again ...
you almost cant stop an escort, because of apo, thats why they can dmg, because they are allways where they want to be, if apo didnt give that movement prottection, it would make it to use a polarize hull to stop tractor beams or something, APO gives it all, prottection, defense, attack, and a doff with crazy cooldown reduction
If they're running with two copies of APO and have the proper Doff's, there's no such thing as a disabled Escort and that's part of the problem imo.
Even w/the cooldown reductions et al, a proper team will have Scis and thier SNBs. VMs (human boff fixes aside) will disable a target w/APO. TBs will force either APO or evasives w/high engine power. PSW will disable the evasives. SNB removes the immunities. Things are a little more tricky w/the offensive placate procs, but a jam sensor prior to debuffs will allow a Sci ship to hold an Escort down while it debuffs it.
Again the point is a support cruiser should be able to tank one escort's alpha easily enough and potentionally even bait it into a trap in a team environment. Against a good team it really is a bad idea for an Escort to go after a support cruiser other than an occassional strafing run to keep it honest.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I accept that they aren't going away. Honest. It would just be nice to see past them to whats borked get that fixed, and then maybe take a sensible approach to building upon a firm base.
And its really not just APO. It's that APO is where it is in the land of Boff's and that it is built upon the very broken acc/def/crit. TT at least is very low in the land of Boff skills so any ship can easily have it. Sorta sad that a Sci Ship NEEDS a tac skill to really make its shields balance to the point where they can withstand a determined alpha. And with TT being such a key component well where's my protection from VM or Subnuc now? Well it's on CD if I even have a copy. So. Huh. I need TT just to make my shields perform the way I need them to so I can survive BECAUSE of this broken mechanic and now ST and ET just get brushed aside. Cause MAYBE I can eat one subnuc. Maybe I can eat one VM. But I can't eat one Alpha! Okay some ships may be able to. But then we'd be splitting hairs.
assuming a fast ship with 5 tac consoles and a slow ship with 5 eng consoles
while the tac consoles stack, because its a % base dmg added, the plating consoles dont stack as a percentage, they stack using a formula to not allow plating to reach more than 75%, its impossible, so:
assuming mk xii purple consoles
5 tac consoles : +150% of the damage
5 eng plating consoles: ( 40 dmg res magnitude each console)
1 console : 28% damage resistance
2 consoles: 43% dmg res
3 consoles: 51%
4 consoles : 57%
5 consoles: 61%
what you prefer ? 5 tac consoles and 3 engineering on a fast ship
or 5 engineer consoles and 3 tac on a slow ship loosing the turn rate, loosing 60% damage but winning a mere 10%dmg resistance ?
come on ! stop saying cruisers are ok ... where in the world low turn rate and 10% dmg resistance is the same as 60% more dmg and higher turn rate ?
those words are so right, more than 3 engineering consoles is almost useless on pvp in cruisers while you get useless boff layouts too
yes escorts can tank, speed tank ( which almost compensate that little less hull compared to cruisers ),and if you add all those free procs, heals, buffs and stuff you get from sets, tiers, doffs and all kinda stuff like that, escorts benefit more from that than cruisers. Escorts tank almost the same as cruisers, because 20% resistance on escorts is the same on cruisers, 20% of placate is the same, 10% of crit is the same, so why you need a cruiser ? go for the escort, deals 1000000000x more damage and tanks the same
Remove the movement protection of Attack Pattern Omega and one aspect that has given the false impression of ubertoughness of the Escort is gone.
The great wealness of Escorts have always been stopping them in their tracks. Something that currently has been partially removed thanks to Attack Pattern Omega being a minor Polarize Hull.
Frankly I never why it needed both a defensive buff and movement protection buff.
true story again ...
you almost cant stop an escort, because of apo, thats why they can dmg, because they are allways where they want to be, if apo didnt give that movement prottection, it would make it to use a polarize hull to stop tractor beams or something, APO gives it all, prottection, defense, attack, and a doff with crazy cooldown reduction
Aren't there consoles that are slotted in Engineering slots which improve a remote repair/support role? Why wouldn't you be using those if you're in a Cruiser?
There are plenty of doffs that boost a support Cruisers main role (to repair/resist buff an ally). Instead of directly comparing the 2 wouldn't it be better to compare how well they can do their main role? Is there something lacking in a Fed support Cruiser's ability to support it's teammates? If so wouldn't it be better to address that?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Huh. If I was at a loss for words it wouldn't be me would it? But this makes me close. Very close to being at a loss. Then there was some bit about APO combined with Doffs reducing cooldowns a few posts later on.
Yah think?
You take the TT ability out and you really do need to take CRF out as well. ES who cares. All the shield buffs outside of RSP only really work well in the prescence of TT. That's a fact. Work WELL. Not AT ALL. Read carefully. A ship without TT may have to stack a couple shield resistances to have the same level of comfort that TT and any other shield ability gives. But then you get to why we need TT to do what it does, and it isn't just simply DHC's. There's a REASON DHC's can do what they do.
And APO. Hmmmm....who would think that just driving the cooldowns to the level where you could increase uptime of any ability and only use one copy of that ability could EVER be a good call to make? Seriously. Yah lets just double **** up and maybe no one will notice! Cooldowns are a core component of balance and such a degree of foolhardiness shouldn't even be discussed. It should be corrected.
Cheers!
no, it really is JUST DHCs with CRF that are the offense problem. singles and DCs with CRF don't deliver damage in a front loaded enough way to be half as dangerous to you. when DHCs deliver damage, its in the space of a second. DCs and everything else deal their DPS in around 4 seconds, and at no point is it abrupt enough to out damage manual distribution, usual resistance levels, and shield HOTs. it does not open holes, ever, unless your opponent is one of the helpless types. for non DHC damage, its almost like TT is on all the time for them thier damage is so gradual. but healing and damage arent balanced with those things in mind, just the extremes.
you would not need TT if it wasn't for CRF DHC damage. aside from the odd BO, nothing could remove a facing in an instant, something only DHCs can do. it needs to exist only because DHCs exist. both of these things prevent any other energy weapon types from actually mattering outside of an isolated duel.
and these doffs reducing cooldowns, they arent introducing never before seen effects. you could always use APO that quickly back to back if you have 2 copies, same thing for every other skill you can double up. now you don't have to give anything up for that doubled up effect is the difference. well, except doff slots you could use for something else, or 2 LT eng and a ENS eng for the 2 AtB and EPtA 1 you need to make tech doff builds work.
Usually the explanation is simple: the beam cruiser pilot sucks.
How many good beam cruiser pilots are there? If you exclude the main healers, there really aren't many good players flying these things.
I used to have great success with my tac/fleet excelsior, but now that T4 heals are more widespread, it's futile to shoot a target that has even a little bit of shield resists. Forcing a player to use heals on themselves beyond the self-only EPtS and the occasional ET is almost impossible.
If you like, we can test this sometime and see how my tac/excelsior performs against your ship. Maybe there is a variable that I haven't noticed yet.
sure hilbert, next time i log on and see you in opvp chat ill pm you. ill also put on any sheild you would like me to run. i have borg mk11 omega 12 and maco 12 as well as adopted.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
no, it really is JUST DHCs with CRF that are the offense problem. singles and DCs with CRF don't deliver damage in a front loaded enough way to be half as dangerous to you. when DHCs deliver damage, its in the space of a second. DCs and everything else deal their DPS in around 4 seconds, and at no point is it abrupt enough to out damage manual distribution, usual resistance levels, and shield HOTs. it does not open holes, ever, unless your opponent is one of the helpless types. for non DHC damage, its almost like TT is on all the time for them thier damage is so gradual. but healing and damage arent balanced with those things in mind, just the extremes.
you would not need TT if it wasn't for CRF DHC damage. aside from the odd BO, nothing could remove a facing in an instant, something only DHCs can do. it needs to exist only because DHCs exist. both of these things prevent any other energy weapon types from actually mattering outside of an isolated duel.
I completely agree with this. For some time now, I've been advocating that all the energy weapon classes need to be reworked. DHC's either need to be retuned to deal damage at a rate similar to the other weapons, or the other weapons need to be retuned to deal damage at a rate similar to DHC's.
While that's happening, CRF needs to be adapted to either effect both cannons and beams, or a new single-fire skill for beams needs to be introduced.
Lastly, certain weapon classes need to be made more effective. DC's are a pitfall choice that no one should ever use. Considering that they're already in the game and continue to be added to the game, it's about time that they were made different in some way. Decreasing their damage a bit and widening their firing arc has been my suggestion, putting them halfway between DHC's and single cannons in damage and firing arc. There are plenty of new cruiser-escort hybrids that need a weapon like this. Also, the introduction of a turret-strength 360 degree beam array wouldn't hurt to give dual beam banks a purpose.
Fixing the weapon classes would go a long way to bridging the gap between ship classes.
Sorry virusdancer, I was straining to follow you through that logic until you said "basically, rank 1 skills are the same as rank 2, so the only difference is 2 heals!", and then I lost you. For the record, I am a cruiser captain. But even I can't sign off on this type of "salesmanship". It's an attempt to compare apples to honeybadgers, all while trying to convince me that a honeybadger pie is basically the same thing only better.
I think it was with season 3 or 4 that the "power" factor got bigger. The effect of power on dps, on shield strength and regeneration got bigger and people were more forced to adjust power settings during a fight. In those days cruisers had the most benefit, since they had the most power (+5 to all subsystems). They also had the monopoly of having 2 power systems 100% of the time boosted by emergency power by cycling 2 x 2 EptX. Nowadays escorts and science vessels can do the same with only 1 LT engineer by using the damage engineers doffs. Before that, escorts were running 1x or 2x EptS, and that was it. Also, those blue MK XI power boosting consoles gave +7.5 power to a sub system. So cruisers actually had some benefit of their engineering consoles. With the decrease of +power on these consoles, everyone uses now 1x neutronium alloy and P2W to fill them.
So these days with all the doffs and other passives and decrease of power consoles, the cruisers don't make the difference by power anymore. That should be fixed.
In regard to the DHCs, I think some people are missing a key factor. In PvE, do you need DHCs? Outside of NWS, do you even need them? I'd say the answer is no. Escorts with SCs or Beams can put out enough damage to complete the optionals for the rest - even Cruisers can. It's at that point with where folks can boost damage.
On the other hand, looking at PvE again - healing? Well, like most MMOs - NPCs become harder by doing more damage rather than being smarter or using more abilities. So healing's bumped up. Need to heal that higher damage, am I right?
So you bring that PvE healing into PvP without the DHCs...and well, it's not going to work, eh? The PvE damage players do w/o DHCs is sufficient because the NPCs aren't healing. In PvP, the players are healing. So tada, DHCs.
DHCs to get past the healing that's come about because of PvE damage.
So if you "nerf" DHCs - healing's going to be OP, eh? You can't touch healing, because that's needed for PvE. Are they going to nerf the damage in PvE for the reduced healing? Not likely. So is it a case of buffing the damage of other weapons? Ignoring the implications that has in PvE, how would that fix anything in PvP?
Whether it's DHCs, DCs, SCs, Turrets, DBBs, Arrays, Torps, or Mines - they're all going to do more damage on an Escort than Cruiser. Tac consoles.
You also face the issue of presenting the Escort with other options - if they can get near damage from another weapon that doesn't require the 45 arc; bam - you've improved their survivability another notch because they don't have to worry about sitting in that arc. Heck, you've also increased their damage because they don't have to sit in that arc.
Well, how about adding some DR to Tac consoles, eh? There's DR on the resistance consoles. Well, would it be right to add DR to Tac consoles without adding DR to other consoles? Wouldn't that lead to adding DR to skill consoles affecting both Eng/Sci consoles as well?
And if we're nerfing X, Y, and Z... well, we're back to the issue of healing again - which would mean redoing PvE completely.
It goes around and around. It's not a simple issue. This quick blurb I've thrown together (without sufficient caffeine) doesn't even come close to taking into account all the variables involved. There are so many variables involved...and different aspects of gameplay where you need to consider them.
Sorry virusdancer, I was straining to follow you through that logic until you said "basically, rank 1 skills are the same as rank 2, so the only difference is 2 heals!", and then I lost you. For the record, I am a cruiser captain. But even I can't sign off on this type of "salesmanship". It's an attempt to compare apples to honeybadgers, all while trying to convince me that a honeybadger pie is basically the same thing only better.
It was not a case of trying to sell that an Escort can have as much survivability as a Cruiser. It was a case of selling that Escorts can have much more survivability than some people claim. On top of that, they're still going to be doing more damage.
It wasn't a case of suggesting that AtS1 is the equivalent of AtS3 or the like by any means.
Personally, I believe the pecking order goes something like this:
Science > Cruiser > Escort > Science > Cruiser
The Cruiser should be able to beat the Escort through attrition in a 1v1. It should be able to take the alpha while still doing enough damage that over an extended period of time the Escort will either pop or disengage.
The Science should be able to beat the Cruiser through debuffing in a 1v1. It should be able to throw such a monkey wrench into what the Cruiser does, that with the combination of offensive/defensive Sci abilities with the damage it can do - the Cruiser will pop (it won't be able to disengage).
The Escort should be able to beat the Science through spike. The Sci simply doesn't have the defensive abilities to handle the Escort's alpha and has to gamble on when to nuke - nuke too soon and they risk getting shredded by GDF - nuke too late, and well it's too late.
Duels are pointless, though - since it's generally going to be a team or multiple players engaged. A Cruiser vs. two Escorts might be a stalemate. The Cruiser can't do enough damage to cover the crosshealing of the two Escorts and while the two Escorts may eventually win that battle of attrition...who's going to spend that long in that fight? Bring a Sci along with that Escort, and pop - that Cruiser's gone. Add a second Cruiser though, well...is that another stalemate?
That's where folks have worked out what comps work best for them. Those combinations don't necessarily fit the duel mentality that some people adhere to...the ships aren't even built the same.
In the end, I think it comes down to certain players - doesn't matter if their Cruiserjocks, Escortjocks, or Scijocks...wanting their ship build to be the best build regardless of the activity. They don't want to accept that they might need to adjust that build depending on what they're doing or who they're doing it with. They don't want to accept that somebody else might be better at doing X while they're better doing Y. Tac, Eng, Sci...Escort, Cruiser, Science Vessel... that doesn't matter. People still think that what they're doing should be the best or equivalent to everything else while doing everything.
Say you've got a SUV, sportscar, and cargo van. I mean, bam - that they're going to be better at doing different things stands out like a sore thumb, right? Escort, Cruiser, Science Vessel... why is it so hard for so many to see it here?
So these days with all the doffs and other passives
They have blurred the lines more and more. It's not just that X ship can do more of what Y used to do, but it's also a case that Y can do more of what X used to do...and Z can do more of both what X or Y did depending on what you choose.
It's kind of funny, looking back at my SUV, sports car, and cargo van while considering this.
They've added:
AWD DOFFs
Seven Passenger Seating DOFFs
Sports Car Maneuvering Passives
Sports Tuned Engine DOFFs
Enhanced Cargo Space Passives
if the cruisers are the mother of all vessels, with the top weapons, the top technology, the space combat tanks, the frontline battle ships, why people prefer escorts ? theres something wrong here right ?
This isn't Star Trek. It's Star Trek Online.
If STO were designed more like ST - then not only would we have Shuttle missions, we'd have Escort and Science Vessel missions. Cruisers would be at the top of the food chain.
Not only would there be ship specific missions, there would also be career specific story lines. The Tac Captain wouldn't be doing the same story as the Eng or Sci Captain. Perhaps the story would be the same, but the missions undertaken would be different. Consider the almost insignificant accolades you can get depending on your career - those would actually be the major focus of what you're character's doing.
As is, doesn't matter what ship you're in nor what career you selected. It's all the same for the most part.
It's Star Trek Online. It's not Star Trek.
Cryptic grabbed the title from Perpetual...but had the same deadline to ship the game. So we got what we got. Who knows what Cryptic could have done with the game had they had the full development time to do something, eh? They didn't. So we got what we got.
That means accepting that Star Trek Online is Star Trek Online and not Star Trek...online.
A disclaimer of sorts, where my bias may lie, etc, etc, etc in regard to my four toons and the ships they can fly:
Fed Eng - can fly Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser, Support Cruiser, RSV, DSSV, Advanced Escort, Warship. Prefers the Warship.
Fed Sci - can fly Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser, Support Cruiser, RSV, DSSV, Patrol Escort, Warship. Prefers the DSSV - even though he's dorking around in the Support Cruiser right now, he still prefers the DSSV.
KDF Eng - can fly Heavy Battle Cruiser, Battle Cruiser, Raptor, Warship. Prefers a Battle Cruiser.
KDF Tac - can fly Battle Cruiser, Raptor, Warship, Carrier. Prefers a Carrier.
So four toons: 1 Warship (Escort), 1 Battle Cruiser (Cruiser), 1 DSSV (Science), 1 Carrier (Special).
If the Warship did not exist, the Fed Eng would likely be flying an Assault or Support Cruiser - might even go for an Excelsior.
If they were to run the Bug in a DOFF pack again and I got one, I'd sell it. It wouldn't fit any of my toons nor my playstyle.
I'm still thinking that I want a D'kora for the KDF Eng.
I'm still thinking about an Orb Weaver for the Fed Sci.
The KDF Tac...I've actually been thinking about a Marauder or Kar'Fi But then again, I've also thought about the JHEC, JDread, and Recluse.
So please, go ahead and dismiss anything I say because I'm obviously doing it wrong.
Course, I'm generally having fun without getting my panties bunched up.
The things I think need to be fixed in the game regarding Cruisers/etc:
Engineering Ensign BOFF abilities. Course, that would apply to any vessel with them. It's not just a Cruiser thing. Affects them the most, but it's not limited to them.
The FAW stuff? Well, who knows how many abilities are broken, eh? But again, while that would also affect Cruisers - it's going to affect all ships. A Beam Array's still going to be able to do more damage on an Escort than on a Cruiser. Fixing mods and procs on various abilities is going to affect all ships, and in the end - all of that's going to mean more damage on Escorts than Cruisers anyway.
Cap on turn rate. I believe Escorts are capable of buffing turn way too high. There should be a cap on it. That's not saying that Escort base turn needs to be lowered - Escorts should turn faster than Cruisers. It's a case of saying that vessel should only be able to turn so much before you move from Inertial Dampeners into Star Trek Shake...and you're crew ends up meat pancakes. Cruisers will never approach that cap, but they'll not have to deal with Escorts potentially turning at such extreme rates.
It's not Star Trek...online. It's Star Trek Online. You've got to accept that, right?
So look for balance - not buff mah ship or don't nerf mah ship garbage because somebody's got a preferred playstyle... that doesn't help the game.
In regard to the DHCs, I think some people are missing a key factor. In PvE, do you need DHCs? Outside of NWS, do you even need them? I'd say the answer is no. Escorts with SCs or Beams can put out enough damage to complete the optionals for the rest - even Cruisers can. It's at that point with where folks can boost damage.
On the other hand, looking at PvE again - healing? Well, like most MMOs - NPCs become harder by doing more damage rather than being smarter or using more abilities. So healing's bumped up. Need to heal that higher damage, am I right?
So you bring that PvE healing into PvP without the DHCs...and well, it's not going to work, eh? The PvE damage players do w/o DHCs is sufficient because the NPCs aren't healing. In PvP, the players are healing. So tada, DHCs.
DHCs to get past the healing that's come about because of PvE damage.
So if you "nerf" DHCs - healing's going to be OP, eh? You can't touch healing, because that's needed for PvE. Are they going to nerf the damage in PvE for the reduced healing? Not likely. So is it a case of buffing the damage of other weapons? Ignoring the implications that has in PvE, how would that fix anything in PvP?
I think you're missing the point. When we say "nerf DHC's", we're not saying that they should have their damage reduced, we're saying that they should have their firing rate altered to match the other cannon types.
Think about it like this. Over the course of a 4 second volley, Dual Heavy Cannons might deal 40,000 damage. If they worked like the other cannons, that 40,000 damage would be spread evenly over the four seconds at 10,000 damage per second. Instead, those DHC's are dealing 40,000 damage in the first second, and then taking the next three seconds off.
At the end of the day, the damage dealt is the EXACT SAME. It just doesn't come as burst damage, which is the problem in PvP at the moment. Most of the reason that Tactical Team and rolling resistance buffs are so necessary is that burst damage can kill a target between healing ticks, as it's much faster. Coupled with weapon procs, etc, it gets out of hand when an escort drops another ship in within that 3 second window because the burst causes panic or a player isn't aware it's happening until it's too late.
Escorts would do the same amount of damage in PvP, its just that the other ships types would suddenly not be getting dropped in windows of burst damage.
It actually supports your argument that the cruiser type ships should do less damage, but be able to win a war of attrition. Without even tuning the healing of any of the ships, the healing we have now would be able to not be so exploited by quick escort kills. At the same time, escorts would still put out a nice chunk of damage, that in team play would lead to kills.
Aren't there consoles that are slotted in Engineering slots which improve a remote repair/support role? Why wouldn't you be using those if you're in a Cruiser?
This is true.
This is also however a part of why people think Escorts are 'as survivable' as Cruisers.
If you really go to town and build a selfish turtle build, the Escort does not really come close - of course that makes no sense since the other team can farm your friends for kills instead.
Instead of directly comparing the 2 wouldn't it be better to compare how well they can do their main role?
This is the better question.
The reason this question doesn't get asked as much is because a lot of people probabbly just want to kirk it out in their Cruiser.
If Cruiser Pilots actually asked themselves the hard question about performing their main role, and answered it honestly we'd see a lot less ire about APO/DHCs, and more threads about hybrid sci ships/carriers capable of slotting multiple high level Eng stations.
I think you're missing the point. When we say "nerf DHC's", we're not saying that they should have their damage reduced, we're saying that they should have their firing rate altered to match the other cannon types.
Think about it like this. Over the course of a 4 second volley, Dual Heavy Cannons might deal 40,000 damage. If they worked like the other cannons, that 40,000 damage would be spread evenly over the four seconds at 10,000 damage per second. Instead, those DHC's are dealing 40,000 damage in the first second, and then taking the next three seconds off.
At the end of the day, the damage dealt is the EXACT SAME. It just doesn't come as burst damage, which is the problem in PvP at the moment. Most of the reason that Tactical Team and rolling resistance buffs are so necessary is that burst damage can kill a target between healing ticks, as it's much faster. Coupled with weapon procs, etc, it gets out of hand when an escort drops another ship in within that 3 second window because the burst causes panic or a player isn't aware it's happening until it's too late.
Escorts would do the same amount of damage in PvP, its just that the other ships types would suddenly not be getting dropped in windows of burst damage.
It actually supports your argument that the cruiser type ships should do less damage, but be able to win a war of attrition. Without even tuning the healing of any of the ships, the healing we have now would be able to not be so exploited by quick escort kills. At the same time, escorts would still put out a nice chunk of damage, that in team play would lead to kills.
Other than BO/HyTorp builds BUFFED DHCs are really the only things that can break ships and it's b/c of the frontloaded damage. If you remove that the game will drag on much more. Seriously against a coordinated premade or even pugmade see how well or poorly DCs do.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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Other than BO/HyTorp builds BUFFED DHCs are really the only things that can break ships and it's b/c of the frontloaded damage. If you remove that the game will drag on much more. Seriously against a coordinated premade or even pugmade see how well or poorly DCs do.
But the point is that once you remove front-loaded burst damage, you can tune up the damage that weapons do across the board if need be. If all damage is increased, then the disparity between the ship classes in healing starts to become more apparent.
The problem right now is that if you increase damage all around, then burst damage starts to become too effective. What you end up getting is people calling for greater healing across the board to stop escorts from tearing through a hull in a single burst.
Remove burst, and healing and damage can then be tuned properly. As it stands, they're forced to balance healing around burst damage (escorts) which as result makes all the other ship classes who don't burst seem inadequate.
Remove burst, and healing and damage can then be tuned properly. As it stands, they're forced to balance healing around burst damage (escorts) which as result makes all the other ship classes who don't burst seem inadequate.
I disagree.
I think what makes weapons like BAs feel antiquated in design is the advent of all of the passive healing/resistance.
These additions are basically the bane of pressure damage (I think with Fleet Shields being the biggest offenders possibly).
"Remove Burst" might as well be "remove escorts" - as escorts are "inadequate" healers and ""inadequate" debuffers/controllers.
I've gone through and rewritten this post like three times. Dancing around in spreadsheets, breaking down the firing rate and all the rest - but what it inevitably comes back to is my thinking this is what is being said:
You can build the Cruiser to soak the Escort's Alpha - but in doing so, the Cruiser is not likely to be able to kill the Escort outside of an extended engagement through attrition. Certain Cruiserjocks do not like that. They want to be able to soak the Escort's Alpha and kill the Escort without the extended engagement.
It goes back to the Cruiser being Tank and DPS.
Still though, they could easily make the point in turn of the following:
You can build the Escort to soak the Cruiser's Alpha - but in doing so, the Escort is still likely to be able to kill the Cruiser in a quick engagement if the Cruiser is not built in turn to soak the Escort's Alpha.
+Tank, -DPS
-Tank, +DPS
If an Escort's built for +DPS, it should be built for -Tank.
If a Cruiser's built for +Tank, it should be built for -DPS.
If an Escort's built for +Tank, it should be built for -DPS.
If a Cruiser's built for +DPS, it should be built for -Tank.
The +Tank Cruiser can eventually kill the +DPS Escort.
The +DPS Cruiser...is pretty much going to die to the +DPS Escort or the +Tank Escort.
The +Tank Escort fighting the +Tank Cruiser...well, yeah...stalemate?
So that +DPS Cruiser looking to be able to kill either the +DPS Escort (faster than the +Tank Cruiser can) or the +Tank Escort (which the +Tank Cruiser can't)...would be behind the reasoning to change the firing rate on DHCs to be like DCs? So that less tanking/healing is needed..more damage could be done..swing the balance?
Swinging the balance is not balance though.
And all of this completely ignores Science Vessels as well as all the various hybrids out there and different careers in different ships...etc, etc, etc.
Okay, so the DHCs get "nerfed" to change their firing rate to that of a DC. How will the +Tank Cruiser be killed now? So it's a case of bringing in the Sci to kill the +Tank Cruiser? Won't the +DPS Cruiser just end up complaining then? Cause with what's required to kill that +Tank Cruiser, it's going to be that much more effective against the +DPS Cruiser. So how will Sci have to be changed to satisfy the +DPS Cruiser?
The Cruiser can already kill the Escort...eventually. Sure, if you slap a Healer on that Escort - the Cruiser's not going to be able to kill the Escort. But slap a Healer on the Cruiser, you know - the one the Escort couldn't beat without the Healer. How's that going to go?
That Cruiser that can already kill the Escort...eventually, the faster it's built to kill the Escort - the less likely it is to be able to kill the Escort and the more likely it's to be killed by that Escort.
It kind of goes into other games and discussions from there:
Should a DPS be able to kill a Tank or a Tank beat the DPS? Or should that be a stalemate unless it's decided by skill?
Should a DPS be able to kill a Healer or the Healer beat the DPS? Or should that be a stalemate unless it's decided by skill?
What about the Tank and Healer? Well, they usually just chuckle and go find something else to do...am I right?
One could say that STO's unbalanced, because the +Tank Cruiser can beat the +DPS Escort...eventually. That's not a case that a Cruiser is UP. That's a case that Healing is OP, eh? That a lack of healing can be overcome by a lack of damage. That doesn't quite work - cause if less damage can overcome less healing, more damage should be able to overcome more healing. But that's not the way it works out - the +Tank Cruiser should win that battle of attrition against the +DPS Escort...eventually. Cruisers are OP.
They may not be OP in the manner in which certain Cruiserjocks want them to be...they're definitely not OP in that sense. They're very UP in the way they want to fly them. That doesn't change that they're OP in the game...eh?
Other than BO/HyTorp builds BUFFED DHCs are really the only things that can break ships and it's b/c of the frontloaded damage. If you remove that the game will drag on much more. Seriously against a coordinated premade or even pugmade see how well or poorly DCs do.
As it stands, they're forced to balance healing around burst damage (escorts) which as result makes all the other ship classes who don't burst seem inadequate.
Healing is balanced around PvE encounters. That healing is too much for PvP without the possibility of the burst in buff gaps or against nuked targets...as p2wsucks said.
As for the other ship classes that can't burst...well, I think it kind of comes down to this:
Buff/Heals vs. Debuff. DPS waiting.
So you've got your Cruisers and Science Vessels doing their dance. Escorts thrown in to make that dance interesting - keep it moving - and to land a killing blow when it presents itself.
Say Team A calls Player X as the target. Team A's going to buff themselves while trying to debuff Player X. Team B's going to try to buff Player X, heal Player X, clear any debuffs. Team A's going to try to clear buffs, heals, and keep debuffs going. Maybe Team A was just setting up Team B with the idea they're after Player X...they're really going after Player Y. They switch targets while Team B's goodies are on CD while having kept most of their own goodies in reserve. Bam, they pop Player Y and then press their advantage while the other team's down a player waiting on respawn.
If it's a case that everybody should be able to burst - well, then everybody should be able to tank - everybody should be able to heal - everybody should be able to drop Sci goodies out there...
...and well, I suppose one could say that with the way DOFFs and passives are going, burst might be the only thing missing. So maybe it is what we'll see next...meh. So maybe there is a point to it.
We should all queue up in whatever ship we want, press our spacebar, and all our DOFFs/passives will take care of the rest. The system will roll two six sided dice...high roll wins. Yay...PvP!
Comments
i dont choose cruisers because of the plating consoles
assuming a fast ship with 5 tac consoles and a slow ship with 5 eng consoles
while the tac consoles stack, because its a % base dmg added, the plating consoles dont stack as a percentage, they stack using a formula to not allow plating to reach more than 75%, its impossible, so:
(assuming mk xii purple consoles)
5 tac consoles : +150% of the damage
5 eng plating consoles: ( 40 dmg res magnitude each console)
1 console : 28% damage resistance
2 consoles: 43% dmg res
3 consoles: 51%
4 consoles : 57%
5 consoles: 61%
what you prefer ? 5 tac consoles and 3 engineering on a fast ship
or 5 engineering and 3 tac on a slow ship ( loosing the turn rate, loosing 60%+ damage and winning a mer 10%dmg resistance ) ? come on ! stop saying cruisers are ok ... where in the world 10% resistance is the same as 60% more dmg and higher turn rate ?
so they not only get limited on the boff layout, but on the consoles too, you only benefit 10% between 3 consoles and 5 consoles, so yes 3 plating consoles is the "sweet point" of plating, which escorts can easely get, while mastering the dmg with the rest of tac consoles and heal skills because you dont need the rest of the sci / eng TRIBBLE.
On the remaining eng console of a cruiser slots you would put an rcs ? an universal console ? that is a waste, because escorts dont need an rcs console, so i think like the other guy said, increase the console ammount of cruisers by 1 eng console slot, could be cool, but very... not probable xD
for example, an escort build ( attack ) you ... well, just use it against anything, a heal build is different, you have to adapt it, 2 reverses wont do anything against a torpedo boat, youd rather use aux2damp for example, in sci officers the same happens, gravity well wont work that great against escorts, so you would use a feedbackpulse or a viral matrix, in dmg deal builds you dont need to adapt, you just use it and hope your dps is the biggest, you only need to change your heals, escorts win all the time, if you notice, things are this way = beginners: cruisers, intermediate : sci vessels, veterans : escorts, its almost this way, escorts win, thats the point, you dont see many players winning with cruisers or sci vessels, tactical ships / skills / layouts are better compared to the others, dot.
That's me !
If you're in combat or combat range while APO is on CD then you're doing it wrong.
Running two copies + AP Doff's significantly reduces the time away from the fight to next to nothing.
I remember back in the day when an Escort was taking damage, it would flee and be well out of visual range and wouldn't see it again for quite some time. Now they can just hover at around 11km for a couple seconds and come back for another go.
Huh. If I was at a loss for words it wouldn't be me would it? But this makes me close. Very close to being at a loss. Then there was some bit about APO combined with Doffs reducing cooldowns a few posts later on.
Yah think?
You take the TT ability out and you really do need to take CRF out as well. ES who cares. All the shield buffs outside of RSP only really work well in the prescence of TT. That's a fact. Work WELL. Not AT ALL. Read carefully. A ship without TT may have to stack a couple shield resistances to have the same level of comfort that TT and any other shield ability gives. But then you get to why we need TT to do what it does, and it isn't just simply DHC's. There's a REASON DHC's can do what they do.
And APO. Hmmmm....who would think that just driving the cooldowns to the level where you could increase uptime of any ability and only use one copy of that ability could EVER be a good call to make? Seriously. Yah lets just double **** up and maybe no one will notice! Cooldowns are a core component of balance and such a degree of foolhardiness shouldn't even be discussed. It should be corrected.
Cheers!
Spot on.
And just because only a few people are doing it, or doing it right, doesn't make it okay. Rarity isn't balance. Balance is balance. Good design is good design. Other things are excuses.
Cheers again!!
It will never go back to the way it was. At first I hated the idea of doffs, but I have accepted that aren't going to go away.
Cryptic just doesn't care about anything other than keeping the interest of the lemmings opening boxes, so we'll keep seeing even worse iterations of doffs in the future.
i like this. i am flying LRSVR and most of a half sized escorts have more hull points than me........................
ships hull hp is strange in sto.
Why? The idea that Escorts can take alot of damage is false. Escorts can deflect a lot of damage but only for short amount of time. Its compounded by the fact that Escorts tend to kill thier foes before they loose that safety of bouncing incomming damage.
Remove the movement protection of ApO and one aspect that has given the false impression of ubertoughness of the Escort is gone.
The great wealness of Escorts have always been stopping them in thier tracks. Something that currently has been partially removed thanks to ApO being a minor PH.
Frankly I never why it needed both a defensive buff and movement protection buff.
R.I.P
while the tac consoles stack, because its a % base dmg added, the plating consoles dont stack as a percentage, they stack using a formula to not allow plating to reach more than 75%, its impossible, so:
assuming mk xii purple consoles
5 tac consoles : +150% of the damage
5 eng plating consoles: ( 40 dmg res magnitude each console)
1 console : 28% damage resistance
2 consoles: 43% dmg res
3 consoles: 51%
4 consoles : 57%
5 consoles: 61%
what you prefer ? 5 tac consoles and 3 engineering on a fast ship
or 5 engineer consoles and 3 tac on a slow ship loosing the turn rate, loosing 60% damage but winning a mere 10%dmg resistance ?
come on ! stop saying cruisers are ok ... where in the world low turn rate and 10% dmg resistance is the same as 60% more dmg and higher turn rate ?
those words are so right, more than 3 engineering consoles is almost useless on pvp in cruisers while you get useless boff layouts too
yes escorts can tank, speed tank ( which almost compensate that little less hull compared to cruisers ),and if you add all those free procs, heals, buffs and stuff you get from sets, tiers, doffs and all kinda stuff like that, escorts benefit more from that than cruisers. Escorts tank almost the same as cruisers, because 20% resistance on escorts is the same on cruisers, 20% of placate is the same, 10% of crit is the same, so why you need a cruiser ? go for the escort, deals 1000000000x more damage and tanks the same
Remove the movement protection of Attack Pattern Omega and one aspect that has given the false impression of ubertoughness of the Escort is gone.
The great wealness of Escorts have always been stopping them in their tracks. Something that currently has been partially removed thanks to Attack Pattern Omega being a minor Polarize Hull.
Frankly I never why it needed both a defensive buff and movement protection buff.
true story again ...
you almost cant stop an escort, because of apo, thats why they can dmg, because they are allways where they want to be, if apo didnt give that movement prottection, it would make it to use a polarize hull to stop tractor beams or something, APO gives it all, prottection, defense, attack, and a doff with crazy cooldown reduction
Even w/the cooldown reductions et al, a proper team will have Scis and thier SNBs. VMs (human boff fixes aside) will disable a target w/APO. TBs will force either APO or evasives w/high engine power. PSW will disable the evasives. SNB removes the immunities. Things are a little more tricky w/the offensive placate procs, but a jam sensor prior to debuffs will allow a Sci ship to hold an Escort down while it debuffs it.
Again the point is a support cruiser should be able to tank one escort's alpha easily enough and potentionally even bait it into a trap in a team environment. Against a good team it really is a bad idea for an Escort to go after a support cruiser other than an occassional strafing run to keep it honest.
Random Quote from Kerrat
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C&H Fed banter
And its really not just APO. It's that APO is where it is in the land of Boff's and that it is built upon the very broken acc/def/crit. TT at least is very low in the land of Boff skills so any ship can easily have it. Sorta sad that a Sci Ship NEEDS a tac skill to really make its shields balance to the point where they can withstand a determined alpha. And with TT being such a key component well where's my protection from VM or Subnuc now? Well it's on CD if I even have a copy. So. Huh. I need TT just to make my shields perform the way I need them to so I can survive BECAUSE of this broken mechanic and now ST and ET just get brushed aside. Cause MAYBE I can eat one subnuc. Maybe I can eat one VM. But I can't eat one Alpha! Okay some ships may be able to. But then we'd be splitting hairs.
Aren't there consoles that are slotted in Engineering slots which improve a remote repair/support role? Why wouldn't you be using those if you're in a Cruiser?
There are plenty of doffs that boost a support Cruisers main role (to repair/resist buff an ally). Instead of directly comparing the 2 wouldn't it be better to compare how well they can do their main role? Is there something lacking in a Fed support Cruiser's ability to support it's teammates? If so wouldn't it be better to address that?
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C&H Fed banter
no, it really is JUST DHCs with CRF that are the offense problem. singles and DCs with CRF don't deliver damage in a front loaded enough way to be half as dangerous to you. when DHCs deliver damage, its in the space of a second. DCs and everything else deal their DPS in around 4 seconds, and at no point is it abrupt enough to out damage manual distribution, usual resistance levels, and shield HOTs. it does not open holes, ever, unless your opponent is one of the helpless types. for non DHC damage, its almost like TT is on all the time for them thier damage is so gradual. but healing and damage arent balanced with those things in mind, just the extremes.
you would not need TT if it wasn't for CRF DHC damage. aside from the odd BO, nothing could remove a facing in an instant, something only DHCs can do. it needs to exist only because DHCs exist. both of these things prevent any other energy weapon types from actually mattering outside of an isolated duel.
and these doffs reducing cooldowns, they arent introducing never before seen effects. you could always use APO that quickly back to back if you have 2 copies, same thing for every other skill you can double up. now you don't have to give anything up for that doubled up effect is the difference. well, except doff slots you could use for something else, or 2 LT eng and a ENS eng for the 2 AtB and EPtA 1 you need to make tech doff builds work.
sure hilbert, next time i log on and see you in opvp chat ill pm you. ill also put on any sheild you would like me to run. i have borg mk11 omega 12 and maco 12 as well as adopted.
even with out ap doffs my omega would still have the cd it has now with ap doffs....ffs people get facts right
I completely agree with this. For some time now, I've been advocating that all the energy weapon classes need to be reworked. DHC's either need to be retuned to deal damage at a rate similar to the other weapons, or the other weapons need to be retuned to deal damage at a rate similar to DHC's.
While that's happening, CRF needs to be adapted to either effect both cannons and beams, or a new single-fire skill for beams needs to be introduced.
Lastly, certain weapon classes need to be made more effective. DC's are a pitfall choice that no one should ever use. Considering that they're already in the game and continue to be added to the game, it's about time that they were made different in some way. Decreasing their damage a bit and widening their firing arc has been my suggestion, putting them halfway between DHC's and single cannons in damage and firing arc. There are plenty of new cruiser-escort hybrids that need a weapon like this. Also, the introduction of a turret-strength 360 degree beam array wouldn't hurt to give dual beam banks a purpose.
Fixing the weapon classes would go a long way to bridging the gap between ship classes.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Engineer Captain
Passives
Romulan: Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding
Omega: Hull-Repairing Nanites, Superior Shield Repair
TT1, FAW2, APD2, APO3
THY1, TS2, DPB2
EPtS1, AtS1
ET1
HE1, TSS2
DOFFs: SDO(BFI), DCE(AtS), Conn(TT), ME(ET), EWO(Beam)
Weapons
Fore: Omega Torpedo, Experimental Beam Array, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array
Aft: Hyper-Plasma Torpedo, Plasma Mines, Cutting Beam
D/E/S: Borg
Consoles
Tac: 3x Plasma Infuser, Ambiplasma, 0Point
Eng: Neut, SIF, Borg, Tachyokinetic
Sci: Romulan Emitter Array [Pla]
...versus...
Engineer Captain
Passives
Romulan: Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding
Omega: Hull-Repairing Nanites, Superior Shield Repair
TT1, FAW2
TS1
EPtS1, RSP1, DEM2, AtS3
EPtW1, ET2
PH1, HE2, TSS3
DOFFs: SDO(BFI), DCE(AtS), 2x DCE(EPt), WCE(EPt)
Weapons
Fore: Omega Torpedo, Experimental Beam Array, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array
Aft: Hyper-Plasma Torpedo, Cutting Beam, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array
D/E/S: Borg
Consoles
Tac: 2x Plasma Infuser, Ambiplasma
Eng: Neut, SIF, Borg, Tachyokinetic
Sci: Romulan Emitter Array [Pla], 0Point
...where each has the additional following base stats (unmodified by skills):
Hull: 34500
Shield Modifier: 1
Crew: 50
Devices: 2
Turn: 20
Impulse Modifier: 0.22
Inertia: 70
+15 Weapon Power
+10% Bonus Defense
Hull: 39500
Shield Modifier: 1
Crew: 700
Devices: 4
Turn: 7
Impulse Modifier: 0.15
Inertia: 40
+5 All Power
So in looking at the first ship vs. the second ship (before skills/modifiers):
-5000 Hull
-650 Crew
-2 Devices
+13 Turn
+ 0.07 Impulse Modifier
+30 Inertia
+10 Weapon Power
-5 Aux, Eng, Shield Power
+10% Bonus Defense
+THY1, TS2, DPB2, APD2, APO3
-TS1
+ET1, AtS1
-EPtW1, ET2, RSP1, DEM2, AtS3
+HE1, TSS2
-PH1, HE2, TSS3
+Conn(TT), ME(ET), EWO(Beam)
-2x DCE(EPt), WCE(EPt)
+Plasma Mines
-2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array
+Plasma Infuser
Yes, some of that's basically:
TS2 instead of TS1
ET1 instead of ET2
AtS1 instead of AtS3
HE1 instead of HE2
TSS2 instead of TSS3
Yes, that means the first ship's carrying four of the six heals - missing Science Team and Extend Shields.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
So these days with all the doffs and other passives and decrease of power consoles, the cruisers don't make the difference by power anymore. That should be fixed.
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
On the other hand, looking at PvE again - healing? Well, like most MMOs - NPCs become harder by doing more damage rather than being smarter or using more abilities. So healing's bumped up. Need to heal that higher damage, am I right?
So you bring that PvE healing into PvP without the DHCs...and well, it's not going to work, eh? The PvE damage players do w/o DHCs is sufficient because the NPCs aren't healing. In PvP, the players are healing. So tada, DHCs.
DHCs to get past the healing that's come about because of PvE damage.
So if you "nerf" DHCs - healing's going to be OP, eh? You can't touch healing, because that's needed for PvE. Are they going to nerf the damage in PvE for the reduced healing? Not likely. So is it a case of buffing the damage of other weapons? Ignoring the implications that has in PvE, how would that fix anything in PvP?
Whether it's DHCs, DCs, SCs, Turrets, DBBs, Arrays, Torps, or Mines - they're all going to do more damage on an Escort than Cruiser. Tac consoles.
You also face the issue of presenting the Escort with other options - if they can get near damage from another weapon that doesn't require the 45 arc; bam - you've improved their survivability another notch because they don't have to worry about sitting in that arc. Heck, you've also increased their damage because they don't have to sit in that arc.
Well, how about adding some DR to Tac consoles, eh? There's DR on the resistance consoles. Well, would it be right to add DR to Tac consoles without adding DR to other consoles? Wouldn't that lead to adding DR to skill consoles affecting both Eng/Sci consoles as well?
And if we're nerfing X, Y, and Z... well, we're back to the issue of healing again - which would mean redoing PvE completely.
It goes around and around. It's not a simple issue. This quick blurb I've thrown together (without sufficient caffeine) doesn't even come close to taking into account all the variables involved. There are so many variables involved...and different aspects of gameplay where you need to consider them.
It was not a case of trying to sell that an Escort can have as much survivability as a Cruiser. It was a case of selling that Escorts can have much more survivability than some people claim. On top of that, they're still going to be doing more damage.
It wasn't a case of suggesting that AtS1 is the equivalent of AtS3 or the like by any means.
Personally, I believe the pecking order goes something like this:
Science > Cruiser > Escort > Science > Cruiser
The Cruiser should be able to beat the Escort through attrition in a 1v1. It should be able to take the alpha while still doing enough damage that over an extended period of time the Escort will either pop or disengage.
The Science should be able to beat the Cruiser through debuffing in a 1v1. It should be able to throw such a monkey wrench into what the Cruiser does, that with the combination of offensive/defensive Sci abilities with the damage it can do - the Cruiser will pop (it won't be able to disengage).
The Escort should be able to beat the Science through spike. The Sci simply doesn't have the defensive abilities to handle the Escort's alpha and has to gamble on when to nuke - nuke too soon and they risk getting shredded by GDF - nuke too late, and well it's too late.
Duels are pointless, though - since it's generally going to be a team or multiple players engaged. A Cruiser vs. two Escorts might be a stalemate. The Cruiser can't do enough damage to cover the crosshealing of the two Escorts and while the two Escorts may eventually win that battle of attrition...who's going to spend that long in that fight? Bring a Sci along with that Escort, and pop - that Cruiser's gone. Add a second Cruiser though, well...is that another stalemate?
That's where folks have worked out what comps work best for them. Those combinations don't necessarily fit the duel mentality that some people adhere to...the ships aren't even built the same.
In the end, I think it comes down to certain players - doesn't matter if their Cruiserjocks, Escortjocks, or Scijocks...wanting their ship build to be the best build regardless of the activity. They don't want to accept that they might need to adjust that build depending on what they're doing or who they're doing it with. They don't want to accept that somebody else might be better at doing X while they're better doing Y. Tac, Eng, Sci...Escort, Cruiser, Science Vessel... that doesn't matter. People still think that what they're doing should be the best or equivalent to everything else while doing everything.
Say you've got a SUV, sportscar, and cargo van. I mean, bam - that they're going to be better at doing different things stands out like a sore thumb, right? Escort, Cruiser, Science Vessel... why is it so hard for so many to see it here?
They have blurred the lines more and more. It's not just that X ship can do more of what Y used to do, but it's also a case that Y can do more of what X used to do...and Z can do more of both what X or Y did depending on what you choose.
It's kind of funny, looking back at my SUV, sports car, and cargo van while considering this.
They've added:
AWD DOFFs
Seven Passenger Seating DOFFs
Sports Car Maneuvering Passives
Sports Tuned Engine DOFFs
Enhanced Cargo Space Passives
Etc, etc, etc, etc...
This isn't Star Trek. It's Star Trek Online.
If STO were designed more like ST - then not only would we have Shuttle missions, we'd have Escort and Science Vessel missions. Cruisers would be at the top of the food chain.
Not only would there be ship specific missions, there would also be career specific story lines. The Tac Captain wouldn't be doing the same story as the Eng or Sci Captain. Perhaps the story would be the same, but the missions undertaken would be different. Consider the almost insignificant accolades you can get depending on your career - those would actually be the major focus of what you're character's doing.
As is, doesn't matter what ship you're in nor what career you selected. It's all the same for the most part.
It's Star Trek Online. It's not Star Trek.
Cryptic grabbed the title from Perpetual...but had the same deadline to ship the game. So we got what we got. Who knows what Cryptic could have done with the game had they had the full development time to do something, eh? They didn't. So we got what we got.
That means accepting that Star Trek Online is Star Trek Online and not Star Trek...online.
Fed Eng - can fly Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser, Support Cruiser, RSV, DSSV, Advanced Escort, Warship. Prefers the Warship.
Fed Sci - can fly Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser, Support Cruiser, RSV, DSSV, Patrol Escort, Warship. Prefers the DSSV - even though he's dorking around in the Support Cruiser right now, he still prefers the DSSV.
KDF Eng - can fly Heavy Battle Cruiser, Battle Cruiser, Raptor, Warship. Prefers a Battle Cruiser.
KDF Tac - can fly Battle Cruiser, Raptor, Warship, Carrier. Prefers a Carrier.
So four toons: 1 Warship (Escort), 1 Battle Cruiser (Cruiser), 1 DSSV (Science), 1 Carrier (Special).
If the Warship did not exist, the Fed Eng would likely be flying an Assault or Support Cruiser - might even go for an Excelsior.
If they were to run the Bug in a DOFF pack again and I got one, I'd sell it. It wouldn't fit any of my toons nor my playstyle.
I'm still thinking that I want a D'kora for the KDF Eng.
I'm still thinking about an Orb Weaver for the Fed Sci.
The KDF Tac...I've actually been thinking about a Marauder or Kar'Fi But then again, I've also thought about the JHEC, JDread, and Recluse.
So please, go ahead and dismiss anything I say because I'm obviously doing it wrong.
Course, I'm generally having fun without getting my panties bunched up.
The things I think need to be fixed in the game regarding Cruisers/etc:
Engineering Ensign BOFF abilities. Course, that would apply to any vessel with them. It's not just a Cruiser thing. Affects them the most, but it's not limited to them.
The FAW stuff? Well, who knows how many abilities are broken, eh? But again, while that would also affect Cruisers - it's going to affect all ships. A Beam Array's still going to be able to do more damage on an Escort than on a Cruiser. Fixing mods and procs on various abilities is going to affect all ships, and in the end - all of that's going to mean more damage on Escorts than Cruisers anyway.
Cap on turn rate. I believe Escorts are capable of buffing turn way too high. There should be a cap on it. That's not saying that Escort base turn needs to be lowered - Escorts should turn faster than Cruisers. It's a case of saying that vessel should only be able to turn so much before you move from Inertial Dampeners into Star Trek Shake...and you're crew ends up meat pancakes. Cruisers will never approach that cap, but they'll not have to deal with Escorts potentially turning at such extreme rates.
It's not Star Trek...online. It's Star Trek Online. You've got to accept that, right?
So look for balance - not buff mah ship or don't nerf mah ship garbage because somebody's got a preferred playstyle... that doesn't help the game.
I think you're missing the point. When we say "nerf DHC's", we're not saying that they should have their damage reduced, we're saying that they should have their firing rate altered to match the other cannon types.
Think about it like this. Over the course of a 4 second volley, Dual Heavy Cannons might deal 40,000 damage. If they worked like the other cannons, that 40,000 damage would be spread evenly over the four seconds at 10,000 damage per second. Instead, those DHC's are dealing 40,000 damage in the first second, and then taking the next three seconds off.
At the end of the day, the damage dealt is the EXACT SAME. It just doesn't come as burst damage, which is the problem in PvP at the moment. Most of the reason that Tactical Team and rolling resistance buffs are so necessary is that burst damage can kill a target between healing ticks, as it's much faster. Coupled with weapon procs, etc, it gets out of hand when an escort drops another ship in within that 3 second window because the burst causes panic or a player isn't aware it's happening until it's too late.
Escorts would do the same amount of damage in PvP, its just that the other ships types would suddenly not be getting dropped in windows of burst damage.
It actually supports your argument that the cruiser type ships should do less damage, but be able to win a war of attrition. Without even tuning the healing of any of the ships, the healing we have now would be able to not be so exploited by quick escort kills. At the same time, escorts would still put out a nice chunk of damage, that in team play would lead to kills.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
This is true.
This is also however a part of why people think Escorts are 'as survivable' as Cruisers.
If you really go to town and build a selfish turtle build, the Escort does not really come close - of course that makes no sense since the other team can farm your friends for kills instead.
This is the better question.
The reason this question doesn't get asked as much is because a lot of people probabbly just want to kirk it out in their Cruiser.
If Cruiser Pilots actually asked themselves the hard question about performing their main role, and answered it honestly we'd see a lot less ire about APO/DHCs, and more threads about hybrid sci ships/carriers capable of slotting multiple high level Eng stations.
Other than BO/HyTorp builds BUFFED DHCs are really the only things that can break ships and it's b/c of the frontloaded damage. If you remove that the game will drag on much more. Seriously against a coordinated premade or even pugmade see how well or poorly DCs do.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
But the point is that once you remove front-loaded burst damage, you can tune up the damage that weapons do across the board if need be. If all damage is increased, then the disparity between the ship classes in healing starts to become more apparent.
The problem right now is that if you increase damage all around, then burst damage starts to become too effective. What you end up getting is people calling for greater healing across the board to stop escorts from tearing through a hull in a single burst.
Remove burst, and healing and damage can then be tuned properly. As it stands, they're forced to balance healing around burst damage (escorts) which as result makes all the other ship classes who don't burst seem inadequate.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
I disagree.
I think what makes weapons like BAs feel antiquated in design is the advent of all of the passive healing/resistance.
These additions are basically the bane of pressure damage (I think with Fleet Shields being the biggest offenders possibly).
"Remove Burst" might as well be "remove escorts" - as escorts are "inadequate" healers and ""inadequate" debuffers/controllers.
You can build the Cruiser to soak the Escort's Alpha - but in doing so, the Cruiser is not likely to be able to kill the Escort outside of an extended engagement through attrition. Certain Cruiserjocks do not like that. They want to be able to soak the Escort's Alpha and kill the Escort without the extended engagement.
It goes back to the Cruiser being Tank and DPS.
Still though, they could easily make the point in turn of the following:
You can build the Escort to soak the Cruiser's Alpha - but in doing so, the Escort is still likely to be able to kill the Cruiser in a quick engagement if the Cruiser is not built in turn to soak the Escort's Alpha.
+Tank, -DPS
-Tank, +DPS
If an Escort's built for +DPS, it should be built for -Tank.
If a Cruiser's built for +Tank, it should be built for -DPS.
If an Escort's built for +Tank, it should be built for -DPS.
If a Cruiser's built for +DPS, it should be built for -Tank.
The +Tank Cruiser can eventually kill the +DPS Escort.
The +DPS Cruiser...is pretty much going to die to the +DPS Escort or the +Tank Escort.
The +Tank Escort fighting the +Tank Cruiser...well, yeah...stalemate?
So that +DPS Cruiser looking to be able to kill either the +DPS Escort (faster than the +Tank Cruiser can) or the +Tank Escort (which the +Tank Cruiser can't)...would be behind the reasoning to change the firing rate on DHCs to be like DCs? So that less tanking/healing is needed..more damage could be done..swing the balance?
Swinging the balance is not balance though.
And all of this completely ignores Science Vessels as well as all the various hybrids out there and different careers in different ships...etc, etc, etc.
Okay, so the DHCs get "nerfed" to change their firing rate to that of a DC. How will the +Tank Cruiser be killed now? So it's a case of bringing in the Sci to kill the +Tank Cruiser? Won't the +DPS Cruiser just end up complaining then? Cause with what's required to kill that +Tank Cruiser, it's going to be that much more effective against the +DPS Cruiser. So how will Sci have to be changed to satisfy the +DPS Cruiser?
The Cruiser can already kill the Escort...eventually. Sure, if you slap a Healer on that Escort - the Cruiser's not going to be able to kill the Escort. But slap a Healer on the Cruiser, you know - the one the Escort couldn't beat without the Healer. How's that going to go?
That Cruiser that can already kill the Escort...eventually, the faster it's built to kill the Escort - the less likely it is to be able to kill the Escort and the more likely it's to be killed by that Escort.
It kind of goes into other games and discussions from there:
Should a DPS be able to kill a Tank or a Tank beat the DPS? Or should that be a stalemate unless it's decided by skill?
Should a DPS be able to kill a Healer or the Healer beat the DPS? Or should that be a stalemate unless it's decided by skill?
What about the Tank and Healer? Well, they usually just chuckle and go find something else to do...am I right?
One could say that STO's unbalanced, because the +Tank Cruiser can beat the +DPS Escort...eventually. That's not a case that a Cruiser is UP. That's a case that Healing is OP, eh? That a lack of healing can be overcome by a lack of damage. That doesn't quite work - cause if less damage can overcome less healing, more damage should be able to overcome more healing. But that's not the way it works out - the +Tank Cruiser should win that battle of attrition against the +DPS Escort...eventually. Cruisers are OP.
They may not be OP in the manner in which certain Cruiserjocks want them to be...they're definitely not OP in that sense. They're very UP in the way they want to fly them. That doesn't change that they're OP in the game...eh?
Healing is balanced around PvE encounters. That healing is too much for PvP without the possibility of the burst in buff gaps or against nuked targets...as p2wsucks said.
As for the other ship classes that can't burst...well, I think it kind of comes down to this:
Buff/Heals vs. Debuff. DPS waiting.
So you've got your Cruisers and Science Vessels doing their dance. Escorts thrown in to make that dance interesting - keep it moving - and to land a killing blow when it presents itself.
Say Team A calls Player X as the target. Team A's going to buff themselves while trying to debuff Player X. Team B's going to try to buff Player X, heal Player X, clear any debuffs. Team A's going to try to clear buffs, heals, and keep debuffs going. Maybe Team A was just setting up Team B with the idea they're after Player X...they're really going after Player Y. They switch targets while Team B's goodies are on CD while having kept most of their own goodies in reserve. Bam, they pop Player Y and then press their advantage while the other team's down a player waiting on respawn.
If it's a case that everybody should be able to burst - well, then everybody should be able to tank - everybody should be able to heal - everybody should be able to drop Sci goodies out there...
...and well, I suppose one could say that with the way DOFFs and passives are going, burst might be the only thing missing. So maybe it is what we'll see next...meh. So maybe there is a point to it.
We should all queue up in whatever ship we want, press our spacebar, and all our DOFFs/passives will take care of the rest. The system will roll two six sided dice...high roll wins. Yay...PvP!