You can build the Escort to soak the Cruiser's Alpha - but in doing so, the Escort is still likely to be able to kill the Cruiser in a quick engagement if the Cruiser is not built in turn to soak the Escort's Alpha.
Well there is an A, B & C component here. A (alpha) & B (soak damage) and you are missing C (aid someone else in soaking damage)
A Cruiser that might lack certain things to absorb an Escort's alpha most likely lacks those things because they've focused their consoles/gear/abilities on helping someone else absorb an Escorts alpha.
Except it's not even remotely close to true in this game.
Good healers are the backbone of a solid team.
There are times I'm under fire in my Escort and I don't even need more than EPTS 1 + TT 1 - this isn't because I'm awesome and I'm zipping around at full impulse, it's because my healers have my life in their hands.
Well there is an A, B & C component here. A (alpha) & B (soak damage) and you are missing C (aid someone else in soaking damage)
A Cruiser that might lack certain things to absorb an Escort's alpha most likely lacks those things because they've focused their consoles/gear/abilities on helping someone else absorb an Escorts alpha.
I can see where Fleets might do that healing doohickey nonsense...my attempts at healing in PUGs whether PvE or PvP have always left me with the desire to buy something from the C-Store allowing me to shoot members of my own team.
When you toss somebody TT1 and they thank you for the heal...yeah...um...yeah...
Outside of Extend Shields though, the other five healing abilities that can be used on somebody else are also tanking abilities.
edit: But yeah, I don't fly in Premades nor OPvP PUGmades. I don't do the healing thing while even in a cruiser. There are enough people from Ker'rat that queue to fly a tank in PUGland. They love to beat on a meatshield while ignoring the folks that are actually killing them.
FAW spam (both damage and random kill shots) and self-healing will give anybody that just gives a cursory glance at the scoreboard that you're rocking the place...when you're actually presenting the least threat of anybody on the field. Like moths to the flame, they're drawn to you...while the other folks on your team actually do the actual damage - efficient damage, well timed damage, etc, etc, etc. You're just flying around going wheeeee wheeeee...and then your team wins.
Vs. Premades/PUGmades - they either kill off the real threats first or just chain VM/nuke and I pop in the blink of an eye.
I can see where Fleets might do that healing doohickey nonsense...my attempts at healing in PUGs whether PvE or PvP have always left me with the desire to buy something from the C-Store allowing me to shoot members of my own team.
Hah, fair enough.
When you toss somebody TT1 and they thank you for the heal...yeah...um...yeah...
Outside of Extend Shields though, the other five healing abilities that can be used on somebody else are also tanking abilities.
True.
However You can't load up on dual RSPs.
You can only load SIF gens for better heals or Neutroniums for better soaking.
And, you can only load up on emitters for better heals, or Field Gens for beefier shielding.
You're also unlikely to have other resistance boosts.
And lastly if you've tossed those tanking/heal abilities onto someone else then they are on CD for your own tanking needs.
I'm not saying a healer is an easy kill by any means (and I'm certainly not advocating some senseless turtle build that doesn't heal), but they have a need to split what they do to cover their own needs as well as the needs of team mates.
Except it's not even remotely close to true in this game.
Good healers are the backbone of a solid team.
There are times I'm under fire in my Escort and I don't even need more than EPTS 1 + TT 1 - this isn't because I'm awesome and I'm zipping around at full impulse, it's because my healers have my life in their hands.
In PvP healers are necessary. I like healing in PvP.
In PvE they are optional, and put the team at a disadvantage in the DPS race. The only exception seems to be gimmick fights where you need to keep an NPC healed. If I'm playing an escort in PvE, I almost never need more healing than I can give myself. Heck, I almost never need to move, I'm usually okay just sitting motionless cycling EPtS 1 and TT1 no matter what I have agro from.
In my cruiser I can cycle two copies of ES 2, and copies of Aux to SIF 1 and 3 (so the hull resistance buff is always up, in addition to dropping a pretty powerful ET 2 or TSS 2 when needed. But in PvE, 98% of the time the healer's main contribution is firing underpowered beam broadsides at the team's focus target.
I took about a year off from the game, but it used to be that even the healers put out valuable damage. They weren't the killers, but they kept up sustained pressure. Now if you aren't hitting with DHCs, you basically aren't doing damage at all.
I don't think the healers need to match the killers on DPS, but they are too weak right now. Honestly, science ships also probably do too little weapon damage for the current state of the game. Their control powers are more useful than healing outside of PvP, but if you bring one that can't mount cannons,that still nerfs the team's DPS too much.
Though it doesn't help that the game is loaded with cruiser captains who don't even try to heal.
Insulting people will certainly help you recruit more healers. XD
Of course, what virusdancer hinted at is very important regarding the relative power of cruisers: There is a big, big difference between playing in a premade team and playing in a pick-up group. My impression is that many premade-only players tend to completely ignore the PUG side of things.
Trying to heal in a PUG is a nightmare. ES and A2SIF eat up RSP and higher-level EPtS slots, and if you heal team-mates then your heals will be on cooldown almost all the time, leaving you vulnerable if the enemy shifts to you.
But the PUG escorts are going to allow enemy escorts to just park at a full stop next to the healer and fire into a bare shield facing for as long as they want, and they aren't going to bother tossing you their own heals to bridge the 5 or 10 seconds it will take to get your own big heals off cooldown.
Teams are a whole different story, but most people start with PUGs, and PUGs teach you to not bother trying to heal.
Insulting people will certainly help you recruit more healers. XD
Of course, what virusdancer hinted at is very important regarding the relative power of cruisers: There is a big, big difference between playing in a premade team and playing in a pick-up group. My impression is that many premade-only players tend to completely ignore the PUG side of things.
The vast majority of times I'm in a random PuG. A few times I'm in non random PuG. Very few times have I been in a premade. Idc to have the game balanced around Pugging, 1v1s, or even intership capabilities. It should be how well does ship X fill it's role(s) vs how well does ship Y fill it's role(s).
I acknowledge pressure damage isn't an effective role atm with the exception of KDF battle Cruisers and some Lotto ship builds.
I'll also acknowledge various hybrid/escort builds (not all) are OP in terms of various capabilities. It doesn't follow that support cruisers are UP. They still are very good at their main job, which is to support repair/resist boost an ally.
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Insulting people will certainly help you recruit more healers.
Are you reading something personal into what I posted?
Or are you worried about the feelings of the meme creator?
I specifically crafted that sentence with a deliberate nuance to not directly insult anyone on this forum - however a reader might see something of themselves in there, and there is little I can do about that.
Premade
1) Communication
2) Teamwork
3) Cooperation
4) Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)
PUG
1) Selfish play
2) A desire to be "the hero" (an extension of selfish play), i.e. "kirking it"
I don't quite agree with that. There's too many variables that come into play to write it off as simply being that.
What does a Premade have?
Better communication. They'll usually have voice comms. This is going to be superior than typing. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't communicate - but in the end they're not going to have the better communications available to a Premade. Keybinds can only go so far and communicate so much.
Teamwork experience. Having run together previously, they're going to have the experience of working together as a team. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't work as a team. But it might the first time anybody on that PUG team has seen the other members of the team. The experience the Premade has from even running a single match together is going to be superior.
Cooperation? Well, one could say that this is covered by communication and teamwork. So once again, it doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't cooperate - but in the end, the Premade's going to have the edge because of better communications and experience working together.
Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)? C'mon, now - that's just being silly. Obviously a group of players that plan on playing together are going to have a synergy going with their styles and build choices. That doesn't mean a PUG can't or won't be team focused. You could have five guys that recognized that PUGs lack healing - so they decide to roll healers - they queue up...bazinga...all five of them end up in the same match. Never knowing what you're team is going to be sporting - what the enemy is going to be sporting...man, that's part of the whole excitement of PUGland. Obviously the Premade may have better focused builds/playstyles for team success, but doesn't mean that they've got the market cornered on wanting the team to win.
Selfish play. Yep, no doubt there's selfish play involved on the PUG side at times. There are also going to be the folks that don't play that way. In the end though, it's somewhat required - because you don't know what your team's going to end up with...you have to be more self-sufficient. Then again, there's selfish play on the Premade side as well (more in a bit).
A desire to be "the hero". Yep, no doubt there's the folks that want to be "the hero" - and that's how they run in PUGs. Course, there's all kind of heroes, eh? There's the hero that wants to kill everything and stand triumphant at the end of the match. The guy that's oblivious to the healing he received, the debuffs his targets received, and all the rest. Yes, that guy's extremely annoying. I think I mentioned a desire earlier to be able to buy the ability to shoot folks on your own team...yeah, this guy...he's one of those guys where "Ooopsie, fatfingered that...sorry." would happen. Ahem... but there's also the healer that PUGs it, knowing full well that his team might be the definition of fail. You don't get that from a Premade. That guy deserves a cookie.
I said I would mention more in a bit about the selfish play on the Premade. Okay, then - it's pretty simple. Better communication, team work experience, and build synergy...lolstomping PUGs. Can't get more selfish than that. I mean, it's not some random numbnuts charging the enemy and then complaining he didn't get heals, nobody followed him, etc, etc, etc. It's a cooperative effort from a group of five to be selfish. That's far worse, imho, than random numbnuts guy. Even if you find yourself on a team with four of them and you desperately wish you could help the other team shoot them... they're still individual selfish players. They're not that premade group of selfish players.
Well, I must be a stubborn healer, because I absolutely hate stealing heals from teammates.
If I'm near death, I'll keep my guys alive at all costs. At least with pugmades I can expect a TT from time to time and heal support.
And on that note, please, don't forget to send a TT to your healer from time to time.
Well of course you should try not to steal heals, but sometimes it happens. The point is that if the healer is in trouble, they need the team to support them. In PUGs team support is almost always a one-way street.
I've been bitched at for not sending an ET to an escort while I had 3 enemies on me.
PUGmades aren't nearly as bad. The thing is that players tend to start off with PUGs, and healing is definitely the worst role in a PUG.
the DHC talk got off track, you don't fix it by 'nerfing' it, you do something about the extreme in its front loading. and when you do that, the game can do without TT distribute. it should proboly do without ES too, thats the key to keeping someone basically invincible at the resist cap.
remove those 3 factors and you will only be left with varied levels of damage over time, with BO and torps to provide the only spike. the extremes would be removed, and cruisers would not be UP anymore, none of the none DHC weapons would be UP anymore.
since they wont do anything as extreme, even though it would leave the game in a state were it could easily be balanced from there, here's some half measures that will be nearly as good
-DHCs with CRF makes their fireing cycle practically DC like in effect. maybe firing slightly less shots then a DC, but fireing shots the entire duration of the cycle.
-lower the TT distribute and clear down to a 5 second window
-cut ES's active time down to 15 seconds, and give it an RSP like cooldown
removing or nerfing these things would have 0 effect on pve. well, perhaps no win and cure would be harder with less ES blanketing, but thats it. a team is pretty fail if any shots get fired at the kang though, and no win is supposed to be unwinable. but even pve'ers are wining it now
Changing the DHC firing rate would still leave it the best weapon. However, that change could result in there not being any kills.
The TT and Extend changes...well, DHCs being the best weapon wouldn't matter because you could alpha people with turrets.
Bah, I'm going to shut up now. This thread's made me very grumpy - I'm reading everything in a negative manner and a closed mind. I'm not contributing anything by posting...
Better communication. They'll usually have voice comms. This is going to be superior than typing. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't communicate - but in the end they're not going to have the better communications available to a Premade. Keybinds can only go so far and communicate so much.
Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)? C'mon, now - that's just being silly.
It's not silly.
I don't even need a hull heal on my escort.
Not chasing personal glory is when you stop worrying about how awesome your DPS or healscore was on the scoreboard and instead focus on the team's strategy for success regardless of where that puts your personal numbers.
Sometimes that means you need to hold back when you want to let loose, and sometimes it means you take a copy of skill A when you wouldn't normally.
I said I would mention more in a bit about the selfish play on the Premade. Okay, then - it's pretty simple. Better communication, team work experience, and build synergy...lolstomping PUGs. Can't get more selfish than that. I mean, it's not some random numbnuts charging the enemy and then complaining he didn't get heals, nobody followed him, etc, etc, etc. It's a cooperative effort from a group of five to be selfish. That's far worse, imho, than random numbnuts guy. Even if you find yourself on a team with four of them and you desperately wish you could help the other team shoot them... they're still individual selfish players. They're not that premade group of selfish players.
I think you've kind of veered off into some alternate conversation here.
Selfish play for a single player is exactly that.
Wanting your team to win, and focusing on the team's success mean exactly the same things they mean in sports.
You stick to the gameplan, you play for each other and you generally try to keep your own ego in check.
If you want to define 'wanting to win' or play with your friends as the height of selfishness, that's your perrogative.
For me most PUG PvP in the queues (and not pugmades where there is generally at least a bit of coordination in team comp and play) was about as rewarding as most of this game's PvE content.
Changing the DHC firing rate would still leave it the best weapon. However, that change could result in there not being any kills.
The TT and Extend changes...well, DHCs being the best weapon wouldn't matter because you could alpha people with turrets.
TT currently turns 90% of sure kills into something they can live through. having recently used DCs to see how bad they were by comparison, no you couldn't alpha someone to death with CRF turrets. you cant do it with CRF singles, have a ton of experience with that one, and you cant even do it with CRF DCs. you don't need TT for any of that incoming damage.
I know very, very few cruiser captains (or do I even know one?) who just want to help others survive stuff, precisely because of that.
As much as it might pain me to say it, you have half a point. Playing a healer is typically stressful because (as I think someone else put it elsewhere) there's no worse feeling than having a teammate die at your hand, and you'll take a good part of the heat for how a game turns out in the end. That said, STO is much better than most games for appreciating healers. There are other, far worse communities that make it feel like walking into machine gun fire.
I played healer on other games in PvP, so I guess it's a bit natural for me to want to play it here.
I agree that it can be stressful, and indeed I can be hard on myself when I feel like I could have done more. But ultimately the responsibility of the success or loss should be shared.
But despite all of that, there's no more enjoyable feeling to me than keeping a guy ready or bringing someone back from the brink.
cruisers cant even do half of dmg compared to escorts -_- dont come with the 8 weapon old thing, 5-6 beams are the most efficient and they cant do that much dmg to the hull, knowing it has low hull dmg mod, compared to cannons....
knowing beams dont attack that much, the boff abilities that mod them are FAW, and target subsystems, lol, faw only gives + 15%dmg (and that is countered by the number of enemies faw is targeting :eg targeting 8 enemies at once does 1/8 of total dmg) target subsystem now are futile, knowing human boffs are now working and they give +20 subsystem repair, and most elite pvpers have some points in particle insulators (res to shield and energy drain)...
cannons have CRF, one target fire rate increase, same mod to shields&hull
ensign enginner boff station has low opportunities : emergency power to subsystem (weapons, shields, engines, aux) and eng team... all suck
tac have : tac team 1 ( the most efficient skill ingame, knowing even the skill on 1 (ensign) can rerout shields more quickly than normal, counter tac buffs (APB, APD) and boarding parties)
LOL
engs offensive buffs are : eject warp plasma ( almost useless in cruisers, ive seen it working, but most of the time it fails cause cruisers cant chase a escort or sci vessel (more speed & turn rate) aceton beam : cleared by hazard emmiters, enough said / boarding party : as i said before its cleared by tac team, and most of ppl use it (then forget boarding party) DEM : the only good offensive eng skill : + 55 (+/-) shield drain, but its not that great, knowing cruisers cant even reach 1.5k dps or dmv (damage per voley, all beams completing theyr voley, example).
cruisers are (in some cases) 50% bigger than escorts : have same boff station (also eng station suks atm : i hope this changes soon) have low hull difference, and 10% shield, ONLY
im not saying that your cruiser suks, im saying it DESERVES/NEEDS something more
i think i share not only primes thoughs, as other ppl ingame, that doenst know whats happening in this thread, thinks : why tractor beam in sci ? why eng ensign station have 2 type of skills ? cant tell... and you cant too
thks prime for giving us that ship special abilities : cruisers dont have anything special that define it (dont come with "HIGH HULL, bla bla bla" lol - carriers have more hull/shield and have 2 hangar bays, cruisers get nothing.
cruisers are underpowered...
kirby
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
Playing a healer is typically stressful because (as I think someone else put it elsewhere) there's no worse feeling than having a teammate die at your hand, and you'll take a good part of the heat for how a game turns out in the end.
Shimmy!
I sympathize, but what you describe is the life of a goal keeper in every sport.
Here's where the poster you responded to was wrong, only fools and the mentally deficient do not appreciate their goal keepers (healer).
cruisers cant even do half of dmg compared to escorts
And how much healing can an Escort pump out compared to a dedicated heal-cruiser? (This means real healing, and not inflated scoreboard numbers from passive procs)
Right now passive healing and resistances are through the roof, this is the heart of the issue with BAs compounded by their high energy usage.
The problem has less to do with Escorts and more to do with the above.
Each char type has its roll and tricks, Sci debuff/buffer-2nd healer, Engi heals/tanks with some other tricks as well, Tac is dps, to make them do thier job and another classes at the same time would make them OP as hell. Now each ship is designed for the most part within those three classes, Escorts tac ship dps, cruisers engi ships healer/tank, sci ships + aux so msot sci abilities be it buff or debuff. Yes you can fly any ship you want but some are better than others for each class and support the class. I run 120 aux on my sci with alot lower weapon power and run beams but i am set up to drain debuff and so forth and do jsut fine. engi is set up to tank and jsut heal my team. tac to kill. Each class has its own bag of tricks and ships that support those tricks. The game is not balanced around 1v1 its balanced around teams. A decent team is actualy a mix of ships and captains. The escorts or raiders are the weak link in any match as long as the opposition knows what thier doing. (A note on raiders they where made that way becasue of the lack of ship options to klinks at the start allowing not only for more than the voq for sci but also allowing the idea of a Bop Wing to run). Thier are several ways to counter any escort if you have a team that knows what its doing. I have seen cruisers tank 3 escorts and never fall under 85% hull. its all about actualy building the ship for what it is. If you tanka ship that is built for healing and tanking and want it to do as much dps or even 3/4 of the dps a dps toon does then you will see unbalanced. A cruiser has a 10 times the tanking capability of an escort or raider because its not jsut those stats you lsited but also the scaling of each ship and the abilities of the class it was made for with it.
Now with that some things need to be addressed but cruisers are not one of them other mechanics are that ahve already been mentioned. And rememebr each ship and class has its role and your as the pilot are choosing to embrace that or to ignore it. If thier wasnt a signigicant diffference thier would be no reason to fly different ships or play different classes besides how it looks.
You can do what you see there in STO. Take into account the camera movement making it look like they're turning faster than they are - hit up EM on your Ambassador or Nebula. Go from slow to fast, boost that Eng Power, and watch your cruisers turn like that.
The more difficult evidence to find is escorts turning like they can in STO. I'd be curious to see the clip of that.
Still, what I got most out of that...
In STO, you have thousands of crew die without anything happening to your captain or bridge officers.
I like the fact that nobody questions the kdf battlecruiser and only the escort. Those are OP. Not escorts.
KDF battlecruisers are about where they ought to be. Sure they are powerful, but the engineering emphasis tends to work at cross purposes to the DPS emphasis.
Honestly I wouldn't say that Escorts are OP either -- they do their job and don't step on the toes of other ships.
The problem cruisers have is that even though they are good at their role of team healing, their role isn't always useful. It's actually a lot more of a PvE problem than a PvP problem since there is very little PvE where you need to bring a healer at all.
The closest thing we can get. It's also the best example of what single beam hit can do (both to an escort and cruiser - Defiant Quads (or double DHCs) are not all that much better then it's single beam array
It's actually a lot more of a PvE problem than a PvP problem since there is very little PvE where you need to bring a healer at all.
At the same time though, for the majority of PvE... the DPS being put out by Escorts is massive overkill while the DPS a Cruiser can put out is more than sufficient.
Just because there are more DPS Cruiser Captains than you can shake a stick at that do TRIBBLE DPS, doesn't mean the Cruiser itself is not capable of doing sufficient DPS for the most part.
Also, folks wanting it done in 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes doesn't change that it can be done in 10 minutes.
Still though, I agree with what Kirby said about the Ensign Engineer BOFFs - it's what I've said in this thread (I'm pretty sure) as well as in other threads. To an extent, that may work fine for Escorts - but for a Cruiser or even a Science Vessel (mainly the Cruiser), those 5 abilities in 2 groups (4 in 1 group) really screws the options for what you can do with a Cruiser over.
Just compare it with the others (I'll repost it here):
The closest thing we can get. It's also the best example of what single beam hit can do (both to an escort and cruiser - Defiant Quads (or double DHCs) are not all that much better then it's single beam array
I'm actually glad you linked that. The other one I've watched was when Sisko took the Defiant out to rescue Gul Dukat and the civilian government from the Klingons. A clip that didn't support either Escort or BoPs moving the way they do in STO.
I wish Escorts moved like they did in this clip - even giving them that lateral slide - just so the turn was reduced to what it was in that clip. Escorts in STO turn better than the Perregrine did in that clip. Bashir's raider is a Mirror Peregrine.
Comments
Well there is an A, B & C component here. A (alpha) & B (soak damage) and you are missing C (aid someone else in soaking damage)
A Cruiser that might lack certain things to absorb an Escort's alpha most likely lacks those things because they've focused their consoles/gear/abilities on helping someone else absorb an Escorts alpha.
Except it's not even remotely close to true in this game.
Good healers are the backbone of a solid team.
There are times I'm under fire in my Escort and I don't even need more than EPTS 1 + TT 1 - this isn't because I'm awesome and I'm zipping around at full impulse, it's because my healers have my life in their hands.
I can see where Fleets might do that healing doohickey nonsense...my attempts at healing in PUGs whether PvE or PvP have always left me with the desire to buy something from the C-Store allowing me to shoot members of my own team.
When you toss somebody TT1 and they thank you for the heal...yeah...um...yeah...
Outside of Extend Shields though, the other five healing abilities that can be used on somebody else are also tanking abilities.
edit: But yeah, I don't fly in Premades nor OPvP PUGmades. I don't do the healing thing while even in a cruiser. There are enough people from Ker'rat that queue to fly a tank in PUGland. They love to beat on a meatshield while ignoring the folks that are actually killing them.
FAW spam (both damage and random kill shots) and self-healing will give anybody that just gives a cursory glance at the scoreboard that you're rocking the place...when you're actually presenting the least threat of anybody on the field. Like moths to the flame, they're drawn to you...while the other folks on your team actually do the actual damage - efficient damage, well timed damage, etc, etc, etc. You're just flying around going wheeeee wheeeee...and then your team wins.
Vs. Premades/PUGmades - they either kill off the real threats first or just chain VM/nuke and I pop in the blink of an eye.
What is outlined in that meme is the psycology of a non-team focused loser.
Hah, fair enough.
When you toss somebody TT1 and they thank you for the heal...yeah...um...yeah...
True.
However You can't load up on dual RSPs.
You can only load SIF gens for better heals or Neutroniums for better soaking.
And, you can only load up on emitters for better heals, or Field Gens for beefier shielding.
You're also unlikely to have other resistance boosts.
And lastly if you've tossed those tanking/heal abilities onto someone else then they are on CD for your own tanking needs.
I'm not saying a healer is an easy kill by any means (and I'm certainly not advocating some senseless turtle build that doesn't heal), but they have a need to split what they do to cover their own needs as well as the needs of team mates.
In PvE they are optional, and put the team at a disadvantage in the DPS race. The only exception seems to be gimmick fights where you need to keep an NPC healed. If I'm playing an escort in PvE, I almost never need more healing than I can give myself. Heck, I almost never need to move, I'm usually okay just sitting motionless cycling EPtS 1 and TT1 no matter what I have agro from.
In my cruiser I can cycle two copies of ES 2, and copies of Aux to SIF 1 and 3 (so the hull resistance buff is always up, in addition to dropping a pretty powerful ET 2 or TSS 2 when needed. But in PvE, 98% of the time the healer's main contribution is firing underpowered beam broadsides at the team's focus target.
I took about a year off from the game, but it used to be that even the healers put out valuable damage. They weren't the killers, but they kept up sustained pressure. Now if you aren't hitting with DHCs, you basically aren't doing damage at all.
I don't think the healers need to match the killers on DPS, but they are too weak right now. Honestly, science ships also probably do too little weapon damage for the current state of the game. Their control powers are more useful than healing outside of PvP, but if you bring one that can't mount cannons,that still nerfs the team's DPS too much.
Though it doesn't help that the game is loaded with cruiser captains who don't even try to heal.
But the PUG escorts are going to allow enemy escorts to just park at a full stop next to the healer and fire into a bare shield facing for as long as they want, and they aren't going to bother tossing you their own heals to bridge the 5 or 10 seconds it will take to get your own big heals off cooldown.
Teams are a whole different story, but most people start with PUGs, and PUGs teach you to not bother trying to heal.
If I'm near death, I'll keep my guys alive at all costs. At least with pugmades I can expect a TT from time to time and heal support.
And on that note, please, don't forget to send a TT to your healer from time to time.
The vast majority of times I'm in a random PuG. A few times I'm in non random PuG. Very few times have I been in a premade. Idc to have the game balanced around Pugging, 1v1s, or even intership capabilities. It should be how well does ship X fill it's role(s) vs how well does ship Y fill it's role(s).
I acknowledge pressure damage isn't an effective role atm with the exception of KDF battle Cruisers and some Lotto ship builds.
I'll also acknowledge various hybrid/escort builds (not all) are OP in terms of various capabilities. It doesn't follow that support cruisers are UP. They still are very good at their main job, which is to support repair/resist boost an ally.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Are you reading something personal into what I posted?
Or are you worried about the feelings of the meme creator?
I specifically crafted that sentence with a deliberate nuance to not directly insult anyone on this forum - however a reader might see something of themselves in there, and there is little I can do about that.
Yes. Here are the big differences:
Premade
1) Communication
2) Teamwork
3) Cooperation
4) Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)
PUG
1) Selfish play
2) A desire to be "the hero" (an extension of selfish play), i.e. "kirking it"
What they ignore are notions of selfishness in build design and playstyle.
Amen.
I don't quite agree with that. There's too many variables that come into play to write it off as simply being that.
What does a Premade have?
Better communication. They'll usually have voice comms. This is going to be superior than typing. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't communicate - but in the end they're not going to have the better communications available to a Premade. Keybinds can only go so far and communicate so much.
Teamwork experience. Having run together previously, they're going to have the experience of working together as a team. Doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't work as a team. But it might the first time anybody on that PUG team has seen the other members of the team. The experience the Premade has from even running a single match together is going to be superior.
Cooperation? Well, one could say that this is covered by communication and teamwork. So once again, it doesn't mean that the PUG can't or won't cooperate - but in the end, the Premade's going to have the edge because of better communications and experience working together.
Focus on team success over personal glory (playstyle & build choices)? C'mon, now - that's just being silly. Obviously a group of players that plan on playing together are going to have a synergy going with their styles and build choices. That doesn't mean a PUG can't or won't be team focused. You could have five guys that recognized that PUGs lack healing - so they decide to roll healers - they queue up...bazinga...all five of them end up in the same match. Never knowing what you're team is going to be sporting - what the enemy is going to be sporting...man, that's part of the whole excitement of PUGland. Obviously the Premade may have better focused builds/playstyles for team success, but doesn't mean that they've got the market cornered on wanting the team to win.
Selfish play. Yep, no doubt there's selfish play involved on the PUG side at times. There are also going to be the folks that don't play that way. In the end though, it's somewhat required - because you don't know what your team's going to end up with...you have to be more self-sufficient. Then again, there's selfish play on the Premade side as well (more in a bit).
A desire to be "the hero". Yep, no doubt there's the folks that want to be "the hero" - and that's how they run in PUGs. Course, there's all kind of heroes, eh? There's the hero that wants to kill everything and stand triumphant at the end of the match. The guy that's oblivious to the healing he received, the debuffs his targets received, and all the rest. Yes, that guy's extremely annoying. I think I mentioned a desire earlier to be able to buy the ability to shoot folks on your own team...yeah, this guy...he's one of those guys where "Ooopsie, fatfingered that...sorry." would happen. Ahem... but there's also the healer that PUGs it, knowing full well that his team might be the definition of fail. You don't get that from a Premade. That guy deserves a cookie.
I said I would mention more in a bit about the selfish play on the Premade. Okay, then - it's pretty simple. Better communication, team work experience, and build synergy...lolstomping PUGs. Can't get more selfish than that. I mean, it's not some random numbnuts charging the enemy and then complaining he didn't get heals, nobody followed him, etc, etc, etc. It's a cooperative effort from a group of five to be selfish. That's far worse, imho, than random numbnuts guy. Even if you find yourself on a team with four of them and you desperately wish you could help the other team shoot them... they're still individual selfish players. They're not that premade group of selfish players.
I've been bitched at for not sending an ET to an escort while I had 3 enemies on me.
PUGmades aren't nearly as bad. The thing is that players tend to start off with PUGs, and healing is definitely the worst role in a PUG.
remove those 3 factors and you will only be left with varied levels of damage over time, with BO and torps to provide the only spike. the extremes would be removed, and cruisers would not be UP anymore, none of the none DHC weapons would be UP anymore.
since they wont do anything as extreme, even though it would leave the game in a state were it could easily be balanced from there, here's some half measures that will be nearly as good
-DHCs with CRF makes their fireing cycle practically DC like in effect. maybe firing slightly less shots then a DC, but fireing shots the entire duration of the cycle.
-lower the TT distribute and clear down to a 5 second window
-cut ES's active time down to 15 seconds, and give it an RSP like cooldown
removing or nerfing these things would have 0 effect on pve. well, perhaps no win and cure would be harder with less ES blanketing, but thats it. a team is pretty fail if any shots get fired at the kang though, and no win is supposed to be unwinable. but even pve'ers are wining it now
The TT and Extend changes...well, DHCs being the best weapon wouldn't matter because you could alpha people with turrets.
Bah, I'm going to shut up now. This thread's made me very grumpy - I'm reading everything in a negative manner and a closed mind. I'm not contributing anything by posting...
The point is that it's a variable.
It's not silly.
I don't even need a hull heal on my escort.
Not chasing personal glory is when you stop worrying about how awesome your DPS or healscore was on the scoreboard and instead focus on the team's strategy for success regardless of where that puts your personal numbers.
Sometimes that means you need to hold back when you want to let loose, and sometimes it means you take a copy of skill A when you wouldn't normally.
I think you've kind of veered off into some alternate conversation here.
Selfish play for a single player is exactly that.
Wanting your team to win, and focusing on the team's success mean exactly the same things they mean in sports.
You stick to the gameplan, you play for each other and you generally try to keep your own ego in check.
If you want to define 'wanting to win' or play with your friends as the height of selfishness, that's your perrogative.
For me most PUG PvP in the queues (and not pugmades where there is generally at least a bit of coordination in team comp and play) was about as rewarding as most of this game's PvE content.
TT currently turns 90% of sure kills into something they can live through. having recently used DCs to see how bad they were by comparison, no you couldn't alpha someone to death with CRF turrets. you cant do it with CRF singles, have a ton of experience with that one, and you cant even do it with CRF DCs. you don't need TT for any of that incoming damage.
As much as it might pain me to say it, you have half a point. Playing a healer is typically stressful because (as I think someone else put it elsewhere) there's no worse feeling than having a teammate die at your hand, and you'll take a good part of the heat for how a game turns out in the end. That said, STO is much better than most games for appreciating healers. There are other, far worse communities that make it feel like walking into machine gun fire.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I agree that it can be stressful, and indeed I can be hard on myself when I feel like I could have done more. But ultimately the responsibility of the success or loss should be shared.
But despite all of that, there's no more enjoyable feeling to me than keeping a guy ready or bringing someone back from the brink.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah7IDalT-YY
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
cruisers cant even do half of dmg compared to escorts -_- dont come with the 8 weapon old thing, 5-6 beams are the most efficient and they cant do that much dmg to the hull, knowing it has low hull dmg mod, compared to cannons....
knowing beams dont attack that much, the boff abilities that mod them are FAW, and target subsystems, lol, faw only gives + 15%dmg (and that is countered by the number of enemies faw is targeting :eg targeting 8 enemies at once does 1/8 of total dmg) target subsystem now are futile, knowing human boffs are now working and they give +20 subsystem repair, and most elite pvpers have some points in particle insulators (res to shield and energy drain)...
cannons have CRF, one target fire rate increase, same mod to shields&hull
ensign enginner boff station has low opportunities : emergency power to subsystem (weapons, shields, engines, aux) and eng team... all suck
tac have : tac team 1 ( the most efficient skill ingame, knowing even the skill on 1 (ensign) can rerout shields more quickly than normal, counter tac buffs (APB, APD) and boarding parties)
LOL
engs offensive buffs are : eject warp plasma ( almost useless in cruisers, ive seen it working, but most of the time it fails cause cruisers cant chase a escort or sci vessel (more speed & turn rate) aceton beam : cleared by hazard emmiters, enough said / boarding party : as i said before its cleared by tac team, and most of ppl use it (then forget boarding party) DEM : the only good offensive eng skill : + 55 (+/-) shield drain, but its not that great, knowing cruisers cant even reach 1.5k dps or dmv (damage per voley, all beams completing theyr voley, example).
cruisers are (in some cases) 50% bigger than escorts : have same boff station (also eng station suks atm : i hope this changes soon) have low hull difference, and 10% shield, ONLY
im not saying that your cruiser suks, im saying it DESERVES/NEEDS something more
i think i share not only primes thoughs, as other ppl ingame, that doenst know whats happening in this thread, thinks : why tractor beam in sci ? why eng ensign station have 2 type of skills ? cant tell... and you cant too
thks prime for giving us that ship special abilities : cruisers dont have anything special that define it (dont come with "HIGH HULL, bla bla bla" lol - carriers have more hull/shield and have 2 hangar bays, cruisers get nothing.
cruisers are underpowered...
kirby
That's me !
Shimmy!
I sympathize, but what you describe is the life of a goal keeper in every sport.
Here's where the poster you responded to was wrong, only fools and the mentally deficient do not appreciate their goal keepers (healer).
No onesaid it couldn't be stressful.
This.
And how much healing can an Escort pump out compared to a dedicated heal-cruiser? (This means real healing, and not inflated scoreboard numbers from passive procs)
Right now passive healing and resistances are through the roof, this is the heart of the issue with BAs compounded by their high energy usage.
The problem has less to do with Escorts and more to do with the above.
Now with that some things need to be addressed but cruisers are not one of them other mechanics are that ahve already been mentioned. And rememebr each ship and class has its role and your as the pilot are choosing to embrace that or to ignore it. If thier wasnt a signigicant diffference thier would be no reason to fly different ships or play different classes besides how it looks.
You can do what you see there in STO. Take into account the camera movement making it look like they're turning faster than they are - hit up EM on your Ambassador or Nebula. Go from slow to fast, boost that Eng Power, and watch your cruisers turn like that.
The more difficult evidence to find is escorts turning like they can in STO. I'd be curious to see the clip of that.
Still, what I got most out of that...
In STO, you have thousands of crew die without anything happening to your captain or bridge officers.
In Star Trek, well... you guys saw the clip.
KDF battlecruisers are about where they ought to be. Sure they are powerful, but the engineering emphasis tends to work at cross purposes to the DPS emphasis.
Honestly I wouldn't say that Escorts are OP either -- they do their job and don't step on the toes of other ships.
The problem cruisers have is that even though they are good at their role of team healing, their role isn't always useful. It's actually a lot more of a PvE problem than a PvP problem since there is very little PvE where you need to bring a healer at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aLEe1lbzZM
The closest thing we can get. It's also the best example of what single beam hit can do (both to an escort and cruiser - Defiant Quads (or double DHCs) are not all that much better then it's single beam array
At the same time though, for the majority of PvE... the DPS being put out by Escorts is massive overkill while the DPS a Cruiser can put out is more than sufficient.
Just because there are more DPS Cruiser Captains than you can shake a stick at that do TRIBBLE DPS, doesn't mean the Cruiser itself is not capable of doing sufficient DPS for the most part.
Also, folks wanting it done in 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes doesn't change that it can be done in 10 minutes.
Still though, I agree with what Kirby said about the Ensign Engineer BOFFs - it's what I've said in this thread (I'm pretty sure) as well as in other threads. To an extent, that may work fine for Escorts - but for a Cruiser or even a Science Vessel (mainly the Cruiser), those 5 abilities in 2 groups (4 in 1 group) really screws the options for what you can do with a Cruiser over.
Just compare it with the others (I'll repost it here):
"New" abilities available at each rank.
Tac
Ensign - 9
Lieutenant - 6
Lt. Commander - 1
Total: 16
Sci
Ensign - 8
Lieutenant - 7
Lt. Commander - 3
Total: 18
Eng
Ensign - 5
Lieutenant - 7
Lt. Commander - 2
Total: 14
Tac Ensign - 9 abilities in 3 groups (6, 2, 1)
Sci Ensign - 8 abilities in 7 groups (2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1)
Eng Ensign - 5 abilities in 2 groups (4, 1)
Here are two links I go into it more in another thread:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7681821&postcount=7
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7692631&postcount=15
I'm actually glad you linked that. The other one I've watched was when Sisko took the Defiant out to rescue Gul Dukat and the civilian government from the Klingons. A clip that didn't support either Escort or BoPs moving the way they do in STO.
I wish Escorts moved like they did in this clip - even giving them that lateral slide - just so the turn was reduced to what it was in that clip. Escorts in STO turn better than the Perregrine did in that clip. Bashir's raider is a Mirror Peregrine.