I'm actually glad you linked that. The other one I've watched was when Sisko took the Defiant out to rescue Gul Dukat and the civilian government from the Klingons. A clip that didn't support either Escort or BoPs moving the way they do in STO.
I wish Escorts moved like they did in this clip - even giving them that lateral slide - just so the turn was reduced to what it was in that clip. Escorts in STO turn better than the Perregrine did in that clip. Bashir's raider is a Mirror Peregrine.
Cherry picking video from decades of cannon (which contracticts itself and visually restricted by plot device and FX limits of the time) isn't a reason to change game balance. BBC recent marathon had rerun Relic where Geordi mentions a 100+ years old ship (that was basically serving as in a transport capacity) could run circles around the Enterprise @ impulse speeds. How many times in Voyager or the Enterprise Series did you see ships zipping around the screen as XF tech advanced over the years?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I did read somewhere (I can't find the link now) that phaser dual cannons (as mounted on the Defiant) were designed (and built) to provide equivalent firepower of beam arrays in a size mountable on escort size starships (see the Defiant) note however as time went by and progress was made how starfleet returned to beam arrays even on their escorts to great effectiveness (see the Prometheus).
Is that not a reason to bring Beam arrays in game up to at least dual cannon levels? (thus allowing them to compete with DHCs without removing the advantage DHCs hold)
Cherry picking video from decades of cannon (which contracticts itself and visually restricted by plot device and FX limits of the time) isn't a reason to change game balance. BBC recent marathon had rerun Relic where Geordi mentions a 100+ years old ship (that was basically serving as in a transport capacity) could run circles around the Enterprise @ impulse speeds. How many times in Voyager or the Enterprise Series did you see ships zipping around the screen as XF tech advanced over the years?
Meat pancakes.
Inertial dampeners can only illogically explain so much before Star Trek Shake kicks in.
I feel like I'm missing something. Meh, I think that's enough though.
Would you do that? No, of course not.
The question I have posed is: How much of that should you be able to do?
It's not about nerfing the Escort's base turn rate nor buffing the Cruiser's base turn rate.
It's about how high one should be able to take that turn rate...before...meat pancakes.
I'm not sure how somebody could say that the game is balanced with the broken arcs and the ability to turn so fast while exploiting those arcs. Wouldn't balance be a case of fixing that?
Is that not a reason to bring Beam arrays in game up to at least dual cannon levels? (thus allowing them to compete with DHCs without removing the advantage DHCs hold)
No, it isn't.
Using canon to balance an MMO with classes and roles doesn't work.
This is not Star Trek, it is Star Trek Online.
Canon provides backdrop and theme, not game mechanics.
What would be the disadvantage then to having a 250 degree firing arc if you have the same DPS DCs?
What land of lunacy would it be if BAs had DHC DPV, so you can have a 360 degree capable BO 3 at DHC DPV level?
Because Beam Arrays are already better than Dual Cannons are.
Also the only thing holding beams down, is things like the BFI Doff (which still provides too much free healing), and the stupid Azn Grind Passive that heals your shields every time you are crit.
Though really, beams are far far better than people give them credit for, especially in the hands of a tac.
Anyone that says beams suck haven't watched Trinity in action or myself in my tacxelsior. (the Excels is one boff slot short from being able to -really- run cannons effectively) I've never seen my team mates complain about a lack of damage from my Excels. Beams also imo, are better for ripping down high capacity low regeneration shields, and also work better with Omegas 2 set bonus due to their relatively unrestricted firing ability. This is in part due to how Cannons v Beams work on the firing cycle. Beams have overlap durations, cannons do not which gives shields a longer recovery period than if they are constantly being burned down. You can almost -always- provide extra drain (and it adds up fairly quickly too) with beams and glider. Also for beams to crank you have to shy away from double ACC and X. Their high innate accuracy means Acc, and CrtHx2 become much more potent. CrtD is okay if you can't afford the CrtH2 Acc beams. And with FAW (because you -will- be using FAW if you pvp more than once a year with all the carrier trash out there) CrtH2 CrtDs start getting really appealing thanks to the FAW Acc Bug.
It's the Eng that's boned, not the beams themselves imo. He has no substantial way to increase his damage or debuff the enemy. All he can do is heal well.
Also the only thing holding beams down, is things like the BFI Doff (which still provides too much free healing), and the stupid Azn Grind Passive that heals your shields every time you are crit.
There is also the FAW ACC bug (which has a fix on the way) and the fleet [adapt] shield
There is also the FAW ACC bug (which has a fix on the way) and the fleet [adapt] shield
Got that covered above already
And with Plas, the CrtD CrtH2 ''hinderances'' become boons. (Which imo every cruiser that has an LTC Eng should have Plas at this point. And especially Excelsis with all that tac buff plas power)
I feel like I'm missing something. Meh, I think that's enough though.
Would you do that? No, of course not.
The question I have posed is: How much of that should you be able to do?
It's not about nerfing the Escort's base turn rate nor buffing the Cruiser's base turn rate.
It's about how high one should be able to take that turn rate...before...meat pancakes.
I'm not sure how somebody could say that the game is balanced with the broken arcs and the ability to turn so fast while exploiting those arcs. Wouldn't balance be a case of fixing that?
Meat Pancakes would happen every time you go to warp then. People always think about lateral Gs, but they never think about forward G. The forward power of warp, warp bubble or not, would still be more than enough to pancake the crew. The forward load is much higher than the lateral gs of combat.
Also we know how fast ST ships are in this game. They aren't even as fast as a Fighter Jet in combat speed. Just look at the pitifully slow closing distances and do the math. Their rate of acceleration and deceleration and lateral G is no where near meat pancakes level. Unless you want to say an F15 kills it's pilot every time it even thinks about turning.
If you think firing arc doesn't matter at all, maybe you should duel some of the better tac cruisers out there and see how fast they burn you down while you try to zip around them :P
It's the Eng that's boned, not the beams themselves imo. He has no substantial way to increase his damage or debuff the enemy. All he can do is heal well.
Miracle Worker (heal), Nadion Inversion (system drain resist), EPS Power (power boost), Rotate Shield (heal/resist), Engineering Fleet (resist, hull repair skill boost, possible power level boost).
vs.
Attack Pattern Alpha (+Dmg, +CrtH, +CrtD, +Turn), Fire on My Mark (-Dmg Resist), Tactical Initiative (faster Tac BOFF abilities), Go Down Fighting (scaling +Dmg), Tactical Fleet (+Dmg, +Acc, +Def)
No doubt if you put an Eng and a Tac in the same boat, the Tac could do more damage than the Eng. The only way the Eng could pull ahead is if the encounter is such that the Tac kept dying while the Eng was able to plod along doing damage.
But that's Career choice - that's how the Tac in the Cruiser will do more DPS than the Eng in the Cruiser (again, unless the Tac somehow manages to keep dying and the Eng eventually passes them - but I'm not sure there's anything in the game like that).
It goes beyond that, though - as one looks at the number of Tac consoles vs. Eng consoles - and what one can put in there. It's the Tac BOFFs vs. Eng BOFFs.
That's not about Tactical Captain vs. Engineering Captain. That's about the Tac Captain in different ships - how the BOFF layouts and consoles affect things. The Tac Cap is always going to do more damage than the Eng Cap.
And the thing is, addressing the Engineering Ensign BOFFs as well as Engineering Consoles would not solely benefit Cruisers. It wouldn't do anything about the complaints from Engineers about Tacs...if anything, they'd likely end up complaining more. Tacs would get the most out of it. But hey, it would make things a little more viable in PUGland and over in PvE, no?
If you think firing arc doesn't matter at all, maybe you should duel some of the better tac cruisers out there and see how fast they burn you down while you try to zip around them :P
Not that it doesn't matter, but that it's broken. Weapons continue to fire outside their arcs.
The weapon only checks if the target's in the arc at the beginning of the cycle - remaining shots will continue to fire regardless of the arc. Doesn't check per shot. You can fire fore 45 arc weapons as if they're aft as long as the target was in the fore 45 arc when you initially fired.
Not that it doesn't matter, but that it's broken. Weapons continue to fire outside their arcs.
The weapon only checks if the target's in the arc at the beginning of the cycle - remaining shots will continue to fire regardless of the arc. Doesn't check per shot. You can fire fore 45 arc weapons as if they're aft as long as the target was in the fore 45 arc when you initially fired.
You can do the same thing with beams. Weapons in this game are all Smart Weapons for some reason heh.
The thing is Nadion sucks. It's easily emulated and surpassed by EPTW1 even.
MW meh. It's pretty rare to actually get a ship that far gone that it actually needs MW
EPS power, I use if anything as more of a booster for my aux when EPTA or Aux batteries are on CD. It's not that hot of an ability especially if we want to start talking about the horror of Team Batteries.
Eng Fleet is meh. Scattering field does it better, and on a quicker CD.
The Eng in pvp needs his powers completely restructured. MW should be a bonus to all healing thrown (lets say +100 for the next 15 seconds), Nadion should actually resist power drain attacks of all sorts. EPS power transfer might actually be fine as it is since you can at least throw it to team mates or use between Team Batt, Red Matter, Oberth console cool downs.
Eng Fleet, should be what Sci fleet is now (and sci Fleet gets changed to a debuff booster, like +100 to Gravitons, Flow cap, and decompiler for 15 secs)
RSF is actually fine, though it might need a slight regen boost.
With all of the blatant free heals in this game the eng is kind of homeless, because the resistances and heals he was granted with, have not upscaled with the games healing across the board.
The best way to play a cruiser, unless you're being stubborn is to go Sci or Tac unfortunately.
You can do the same thing with beams. Weapons in this game are all Smart Weapons for some reason heh.
Arrays don't do the damage that DHCs nor DCs do. They don't do the damage that DBBs do. They don't do the damage SCs do. Sure, the 360 Arrays you can pull off in an Escort's better than if you were just Turrets...but that's about it.
Were the weapons balanced around them actually only firing shots in the arc or were they balanced knowing that the arc is only checked at the start of the cycle? That's what my question to Cryptic is. Did they say, okay - DHCs can only fire in a 45 arc so they do X damage? Or did they say, okay - DHCs can only initiate a cycle in a 45 arc so they do X damage? If it was the former rather than the latter, then they need to look at all the weapons again...
Consider the Torp - there's no cycle. It's just the shot. Outside of the Hyper-Plasma (not sure about the Ferengi rockets) - it's just one shot. Were they balanced around other weapons being limited to a certain arc or were they balanced around other weapons being able to continue firing outside that arc?
Just one of those things...
If weapons actually could only fire while in their arcs...would there be less discussion about imbalance in weapons?
But you aren't getting more than one squeeze off in the space bar. I'm sure they didn't consider it, though if weapons literally had their shots vaporize outside of traveled arcs the Z axis abuse would be even worse and since we both know the lol devs won't give us a real Z "it's too confusing!" (their words not mine), do we really want to make the Z axis even more of a problem than it already is?
DHCs also have things like a lack of overlap working against them which is definitely noticable against high cap low regen targets (as the pitiful regen can actually keep pace after all the heals are thrown).
I'd be DHC bullets only shooting things infront of you, if there was a Real Z Axis.
What land of lunacy would it be if BAs had DHC DPV, so you can have a 360 degree capable BO 3 at DHC DPV level?
How does "one I didn't ask for" sound? I asked for beam arrays to do DC level damage considering how they cannot keep up with DHCs and beam arrays overall are outperformed by DC which due to the power of DHCs are useless anyway.
actually, if beam arrays were given the DBB DPV and DPS, and DBB were given DC DPS, that might be pretty close to ok. really, the difference is cannons have CRF and beams don't, the non CRF dps is not nearly as important as what their DPS is wile using CRF. thats the actual DPS of those weapons, not the listed base.
its also the front loaded DPV nature of DHC damage that makes them the best, every other weapon deals damage so gradually that it does little more then keep pace with basic healing and regeneration. if DHC's didn't exist, this game wouldn't need TT at all.
i really think what makes cruisers that underpowered and unbalanced when compared to other ship classes, isnt the hull/shield cap (even admiting they should have a little more :rolleyes:) its that commander eng dont give cruisers what they need to cover a tac commander, and that we all know :mad:
also, ensign eng have 2 classes, eptsubsystem and eng team...
tacs have bo, faw, target subsystems, tac team*, THY, TS
*also tac team is vry good at tier 1 - the same benefict as tac team 3 (the most efficient ingame skill btw, it shouldnt have shield reroute ; well - we all know tacs are favoured ...
scis get even more abilities :mad:
what cruisers have special?
your answer : **dont come with healer boat, everyone knows a tac player or even a good sci player can **** a healer boat**
give eng boffs more skills choices, specially at ensign rank **also, why tracor beam is sci instead of eng, as it should be btw?** **and why tacs get apo with tractor beam immunity?**
not only cruisers but engs are currently underpowered
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
Folks like blowing TRIBBLE up. Zippy fast ships are cool.
Okay, let's start with what kind of character would be good at blowing TRIBBLE up. Tactical.
Okay, let's add the kind of ship that character would fly. Escort.
Hey now, let's add a character that can help that guy blow stuff up and even keep them alive. Science.
Hrmmm, guess they need a ship to fly as well. Science Vessel.
Well, we should probably give players three choices. Let's throw what's left into a career choice. Engineer.
Meh, suppose we need to give them a ship to fly as well. Cruiser.
That oozes awesomesauce, am I right? We've got guys in zippy ships blowing TRIBBLE up and the guys doing their Bill Nye shizzle to help them out. Perfect.
What about those other guys? You know...those guys?
Well, we can just make the content so easy even they can do it. Right?
escorts shouldnt be the fastest, weight in space doenst affect speed, should affect inertia : why cruisers, with their big engines, have lower impulse mod ?
why fed cruisers cant use dhc and klingon cruisers can ? (also most of them have cloak)
why cruisers stations suks ?
why cruisers cant be cool ?
if we continue having crappy cruisers ... everyone'll start using sci vessels, escorts, carriers and cruisers will be in the shipyards :eek: waiting devs give them some boost
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
escorts shouldnt be the fastest, weight in space doenst affect speed, should affect inertia : why cruisers, with their big engines, have lower impulse mod ?
why fed cruisers cant use dhc and klingon cruisers can ? (also most of them have cloak)
why cruisers stations suks ?
why cruisers cant be cool ?
if we continue having crappy cruisers ... everyone'll start using sci vessels, escorts, carriers and cruisers will be in the shipyards :eek: waiting devs give them some boost
In what game does ES3 or Aux2Sif3 suck because it's not STO? Btw, DEM3 doesn't suck either nor does the Lt Commander Boff ET3.
Fed Cruisers were designed to be slow moving/turning support boats. DHCs would be ineffective. Fly a hybrid ship, Feds have plenty of those now and even ones that can drop pets.
KDF cruisers are designed to be part of a hit and run attack force. They're designed to be more agile and some have cloaks as a result.
There are now a TRIBBLE ton of cruisers and pseudo cruiser hybrid builds which have dps possiblities if you want them. Leave the support cruisers as is.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Folks like blowing TRIBBLE up. Zippy fast ships are cool.
Okay, let's start with what kind of character would be good at blowing TRIBBLE up. Tactical.
Okay, let's add the kind of ship that character would fly. Escort.
Hey now, let's add a character that can help that guy blow stuff up and even keep them alive. Science.
Hrmmm, guess they need a ship to fly as well. Science Vessel.
Well, we should probably give players three choices. Let's throw what's left into a career choice. Engineer.
Meh, suppose we need to give them a ship to fly as well. Cruiser.
That oozes awesomesauce, am I right? We've got guys in zippy ships blowing TRIBBLE up and the guys doing their Bill Nye shizzle to help them out. Perfect.
What about those other guys? You know...those guys?
Well, we can just make the content so easy even they can do it. Right?
Sounds like a plan!
Perhaps you missed the day when 5 cruiser FaW balls ruled the day. Those days weren't fun for anyway including the Cruiser pilots.
Again there a TRIBBLE ton of ship choices now. If you don't want to play a support Cruiser than don't, pick another ship ffs.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
My cruiser certainly is very cool. Everyone is targeting it in PvP.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
In what game does ES3 or Aux2Sif3 suck because it's not STO? Btw, DEM3 doesn't suck either nor does the Lt Commander Boff ET3.
EPTS 3 sucks, low heal , useless shield energy, only the shield resist is good
aux 2 sif needs aux in order to be good, what supports the old tac guys idea (hey cruiser ! stop shooting useless faw's around, use torpedos, max that aux power and gimme aux2sif !)
dem 3 ? hahaha ! 50% penetration ? lol. 50% of almost nothing is even more close to nothing, (also, beams have low hull dmg mod)
oh, u forgot ewp : oh, yeah ... cruisers cant chase anyone in order to use ewp, sry...
rsp : any experienced player would stop firing when noticing the enemy is using rsp (the same goes to fbp, but thats another story)
boarding party : countered by tac team, wich most ppl have btw
and you tell me that eng stations doenst suck ? hah !
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
DEM is actually an additional chunk of damage added to every shot that goes directly to hull, it is independent of the actual weapons damage. so it sucks on low rate of fire beams, and is amazing on rapid fire cannons. doesn't seem particularly fair to beam array users does it. its a must have skill on a KDF cruiser, or something like a single cannons excelsior though
DEM is actually an additional chunk of damage added to every shot that goes directly to hull, it is independent of the actual weapons damage. so it sucks on low rate of fire beams, and is amazing on rapid fire cannons
what rapid fire cannons ? stupid turrets, single cannons, and using only one cannon rapid fire (1 btw) ? lol
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
EPTS 3 sucks, low heal , useless shield energy, only the shield resist is good
aux 2 sif needs aux in order to be good, what supports the old tac guys idea (hey cruiser ! stop shooting useless faw's around, use torpedos, max that aux power and gimme aux2sif !)
dem 3 ? hahaha ! 50% penetration ? lol. 50% of almost nothing is even more close to nothing, (also, beams have low hull dmg mod)
oh, u forgot ewp : oh, yeah ... cruisers cant chase anyone in order to use ewp, sry...
rsp : any experienced player would stop firing when noticing the enemy is using rsp (the same goes to fbp, but thats another story)
boarding party : countered by tac team, wich most ppl have btw
and you tell me that eng stations doenst suck ? hah !
First, I mentioned ES as in Extend Shields 3, not EPTS3. But, EPTS3 doesn't suck, you really need to learn the game if you think it does. ES is a support Cruisers bread and butter fyi. If you don't know of this skill I can see why you're having problems.
Again we're talking about support cruisers. If you can't bother to go to a high aux preset when needed fly another ship, since most support repair/resist abilities are aux dependent in terms of performance.
EWP (not to mention the Doffs) is very effective. It's the game's fault you apparently can't figure out a place and time to apply it correctly.
RSP is nice, but not needed for most support cruiser builds. It usually eats up a slot better served for something you can use on an ally as well as yourself.
BP is very situational, but if it gets there can be effective. Personally I wouldn't use it, espcially on support cruiser.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Again there a TRIBBLE ton of ship choices now. If you don't want to play a support Cruiser than don't, pick another ship ffs.
The issue with Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities...is not strictly a Cruiser issue. It affects all ships. It affects Cruisers and Battle Cruisers the most because of usually having the Cmdr/LCdr Eng BOFF slots, but it's not just a Cruiser/BC issue.
The issue with Engineers (which I've tried to avoid in this thread, since it's a Cruiser thread and Cruiser issues don't care about Tac, Eng, or Sci) - is not limited to Cruisers. That issue follows them into whatever ship they fly.
Basically, it sounds like your suggestion is for folks to play Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci...
...funny, that's kind of what I said it looked like Cryptic did with the design of the game.
escorts shouldnt be the fastest, weight in space doenst affect speed, should affect inertia : why cruisers, with their big engines, have lower impulse mod ?
Mass matters. You apply a force to a mass to move it. Larger mass - the more force needed.
It's also not just a case of moving that mass. You don't want that mass to go too fast. You want to be able to stop that mass. You want to move that mass in other directions. You want to be able to turn that mass while moving in a certain direction.
Also, you're not dealing with a solid mass. You have to consider how moving that mass, how turning that mass, how slowing and stopping that mass, will affect that mass. Otherwise, you're going to crumple or rip that mass apart.
It makes a great deal of sense why the smaller ships can move better than the larger ships...
if we continue having crappy cruisers ... everyone'll start using sci vessels, escorts, carriers and cruisers will be in the shipyards :eek: waiting devs give them some boost
The devs just released the Ambassador and Kamarag...two cruisers.
X being broken and fixed, doesn't mean Y isn't broken.
And seriously, using a broken Tac BOFF ability for a comparison...seriously?
The issue with Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities...is not strictly a Cruiser issue. It affects all ships. It affects Cruisers and Battle Cruisers the most because of usually having the Cmdr/LCdr Eng BOFF slots, but it's not just a Cruiser/BC issue.
The issue with Engineers (which I've tried to avoid in this thread, since it's a Cruiser thread and Cruiser issues don't care about Tac, Eng, or Sci) - is not limited to Cruisers. That issue follows them into whatever ship they fly.
Basically, it sounds like your suggestion is for folks to play Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci...
...funny, that's kind of what I said it looked like Cryptic did with the design of the game.
Which...is...an...issue.
What Cmdr/LcDr Eng Boff slot issues are there again? If anything Sci Capt/Lt Commander Boffs have issues, but that's another subject.
I agree Engineers have issues.
My suggestion is if you're going to fly a base Fed Cruiser understand it's designed for team support and if you don't want to fill that role pick another ship. It has nothing to do w/Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci. It has everything to do w/playstyle choices. Exactly, what playstyle chioce do you want that isn't available in this game? Or is you want Fed Cruisers to fill all playstyle chioces?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Comments
Cherry picking video from decades of cannon (which contracticts itself and visually restricted by plot device and FX limits of the time) isn't a reason to change game balance. BBC recent marathon had rerun Relic where Geordi mentions a 100+ years old ship (that was basically serving as in a transport capacity) could run circles around the Enterprise @ impulse speeds. How many times in Voyager or the Enterprise Series did you see ships zipping around the screen as XF tech advanced over the years?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Is that not a reason to bring Beam arrays in game up to at least dual cannon levels? (thus allowing them to compete with DHCs without removing the advantage DHCs hold)
Meat pancakes.
Inertial dampeners can only illogically explain so much before Star Trek Shake kicks in.
Take a Bug.
4x Purple RCS Mk XII.
Tachyokinetic Converter.
Omega Shields.
Omega Engines.
125/100 Engine Power.
TT1.
3x Purple Conn(TT) DOFFs.
APO3.
APA3.
Evasive Maneuvers.
AtD1.
EPtE1.
Impulse Thrusters 9.
Deuterium Surplus.
I feel like I'm missing something. Meh, I think that's enough though.
Would you do that? No, of course not.
The question I have posed is: How much of that should you be able to do?
It's not about nerfing the Escort's base turn rate nor buffing the Cruiser's base turn rate.
It's about how high one should be able to take that turn rate...before...meat pancakes.
I'm not sure how somebody could say that the game is balanced with the broken arcs and the ability to turn so fast while exploiting those arcs. Wouldn't balance be a case of fixing that?
No, it isn't.
Using canon to balance an MMO with classes and roles doesn't work.
This is not Star Trek, it is Star Trek Online.
Canon provides backdrop and theme, not game mechanics.
What would be the disadvantage then to having a 250 degree firing arc if you have the same DPS DCs?
What land of lunacy would it be if BAs had DHC DPV, so you can have a 360 degree capable BO 3 at DHC DPV level?
Also the only thing holding beams down, is things like the BFI Doff (which still provides too much free healing), and the stupid Azn Grind Passive that heals your shields every time you are crit.
Though really, beams are far far better than people give them credit for, especially in the hands of a tac.
Anyone that says beams suck haven't watched Trinity in action or myself in my tacxelsior. (the Excels is one boff slot short from being able to -really- run cannons effectively) I've never seen my team mates complain about a lack of damage from my Excels. Beams also imo, are better for ripping down high capacity low regeneration shields, and also work better with Omegas 2 set bonus due to their relatively unrestricted firing ability. This is in part due to how Cannons v Beams work on the firing cycle. Beams have overlap durations, cannons do not which gives shields a longer recovery period than if they are constantly being burned down. You can almost -always- provide extra drain (and it adds up fairly quickly too) with beams and glider. Also for beams to crank you have to shy away from double ACC and X. Their high innate accuracy means Acc, and CrtHx2 become much more potent. CrtD is okay if you can't afford the CrtH2 Acc beams. And with FAW (because you -will- be using FAW if you pvp more than once a year with all the carrier trash out there) CrtH2 CrtDs start getting really appealing thanks to the FAW Acc Bug.
It's the Eng that's boned, not the beams themselves imo. He has no substantial way to increase his damage or debuff the enemy. All he can do is heal well.
There is also the FAW ACC bug (which has a fix on the way) and the fleet [adapt] shield
Got that covered above already
And with Plas, the CrtD CrtH2 ''hinderances'' become boons. (Which imo every cruiser that has an LTC Eng should have Plas at this point. And especially Excelsis with all that tac buff plas power)
Meat Pancakes would happen every time you go to warp then. People always think about lateral Gs, but they never think about forward G. The forward power of warp, warp bubble or not, would still be more than enough to pancake the crew. The forward load is much higher than the lateral gs of combat.
Also we know how fast ST ships are in this game. They aren't even as fast as a Fighter Jet in combat speed. Just look at the pitifully slow closing distances and do the math. Their rate of acceleration and deceleration and lateral G is no where near meat pancakes level. Unless you want to say an F15 kills it's pilot every time it even thinks about turning.
If you think firing arc doesn't matter at all, maybe you should duel some of the better tac cruisers out there and see how fast they burn you down while you try to zip around them :P
Miracle Worker (heal), Nadion Inversion (system drain resist), EPS Power (power boost), Rotate Shield (heal/resist), Engineering Fleet (resist, hull repair skill boost, possible power level boost).
vs.
Attack Pattern Alpha (+Dmg, +CrtH, +CrtD, +Turn), Fire on My Mark (-Dmg Resist), Tactical Initiative (faster Tac BOFF abilities), Go Down Fighting (scaling +Dmg), Tactical Fleet (+Dmg, +Acc, +Def)
No doubt if you put an Eng and a Tac in the same boat, the Tac could do more damage than the Eng. The only way the Eng could pull ahead is if the encounter is such that the Tac kept dying while the Eng was able to plod along doing damage.
But that's Career choice - that's how the Tac in the Cruiser will do more DPS than the Eng in the Cruiser (again, unless the Tac somehow manages to keep dying and the Eng eventually passes them - but I'm not sure there's anything in the game like that).
It goes beyond that, though - as one looks at the number of Tac consoles vs. Eng consoles - and what one can put in there. It's the Tac BOFFs vs. Eng BOFFs.
That's not about Tactical Captain vs. Engineering Captain. That's about the Tac Captain in different ships - how the BOFF layouts and consoles affect things. The Tac Cap is always going to do more damage than the Eng Cap.
And the thing is, addressing the Engineering Ensign BOFFs as well as Engineering Consoles would not solely benefit Cruisers. It wouldn't do anything about the complaints from Engineers about Tacs...if anything, they'd likely end up complaining more. Tacs would get the most out of it. But hey, it would make things a little more viable in PUGland and over in PvE, no?
Not that it doesn't matter, but that it's broken. Weapons continue to fire outside their arcs.
The weapon only checks if the target's in the arc at the beginning of the cycle - remaining shots will continue to fire regardless of the arc. Doesn't check per shot. You can fire fore 45 arc weapons as if they're aft as long as the target was in the fore 45 arc when you initially fired.
You can do the same thing with beams. Weapons in this game are all Smart Weapons for some reason heh.
The thing is Nadion sucks. It's easily emulated and surpassed by EPTW1 even.
MW meh. It's pretty rare to actually get a ship that far gone that it actually needs MW
EPS power, I use if anything as more of a booster for my aux when EPTA or Aux batteries are on CD. It's not that hot of an ability especially if we want to start talking about the horror of Team Batteries.
Eng Fleet is meh. Scattering field does it better, and on a quicker CD.
The Eng in pvp needs his powers completely restructured. MW should be a bonus to all healing thrown (lets say +100 for the next 15 seconds), Nadion should actually resist power drain attacks of all sorts. EPS power transfer might actually be fine as it is since you can at least throw it to team mates or use between Team Batt, Red Matter, Oberth console cool downs.
Eng Fleet, should be what Sci fleet is now (and sci Fleet gets changed to a debuff booster, like +100 to Gravitons, Flow cap, and decompiler for 15 secs)
RSF is actually fine, though it might need a slight regen boost.
With all of the blatant free heals in this game the eng is kind of homeless, because the resistances and heals he was granted with, have not upscaled with the games healing across the board.
The best way to play a cruiser, unless you're being stubborn is to go Sci or Tac unfortunately.
Arrays don't do the damage that DHCs nor DCs do. They don't do the damage that DBBs do. They don't do the damage SCs do. Sure, the 360 Arrays you can pull off in an Escort's better than if you were just Turrets...but that's about it.
Were the weapons balanced around them actually only firing shots in the arc or were they balanced knowing that the arc is only checked at the start of the cycle? That's what my question to Cryptic is. Did they say, okay - DHCs can only fire in a 45 arc so they do X damage? Or did they say, okay - DHCs can only initiate a cycle in a 45 arc so they do X damage? If it was the former rather than the latter, then they need to look at all the weapons again...
Consider the Torp - there's no cycle. It's just the shot. Outside of the Hyper-Plasma (not sure about the Ferengi rockets) - it's just one shot. Were they balanced around other weapons being limited to a certain arc or were they balanced around other weapons being able to continue firing outside that arc?
Just one of those things...
If weapons actually could only fire while in their arcs...would there be less discussion about imbalance in weapons?
DHCs also have things like a lack of overlap working against them which is definitely noticable against high cap low regen targets (as the pitiful regen can actually keep pace after all the heals are thrown).
I'd be DHC bullets only shooting things infront of you, if there was a Real Z Axis.
How does "one I didn't ask for" sound? I asked for beam arrays to do DC level damage considering how they cannot keep up with DHCs and beam arrays overall are outperformed by DC which due to the power of DHCs are useless anyway.
its also the front loaded DPV nature of DHC damage that makes them the best, every other weapon deals damage so gradually that it does little more then keep pace with basic healing and regeneration. if DHC's didn't exist, this game wouldn't need TT at all.
also, ensign eng have 2 classes, eptsubsystem and eng team...
tacs have bo, faw, target subsystems, tac team*, THY, TS
*also tac team is vry good at tier 1 - the same benefict as tac team 3 (the most efficient ingame skill btw, it shouldnt have shield reroute ; well - we all know tacs are favoured ...
scis get even more abilities :mad:
what cruisers have special?
your answer :
give eng boffs more skills choices, specially at ensign rank **also, why tracor beam is sci instead of eng, as it should be btw?** **and why tacs get apo with tractor beam immunity?**
not only cruisers but engs are currently underpowered
That's me !
Folks like blowing TRIBBLE up. Zippy fast ships are cool.
Okay, let's start with what kind of character would be good at blowing TRIBBLE up. Tactical.
Okay, let's add the kind of ship that character would fly. Escort.
Hey now, let's add a character that can help that guy blow stuff up and even keep them alive. Science.
Hrmmm, guess they need a ship to fly as well. Science Vessel.
Well, we should probably give players three choices. Let's throw what's left into a career choice. Engineer.
Meh, suppose we need to give them a ship to fly as well. Cruiser.
That oozes awesomesauce, am I right? We've got guys in zippy ships blowing TRIBBLE up and the guys doing their Bill Nye shizzle to help them out. Perfect.
What about those other guys? You know...those guys?
Well, we can just make the content so easy even they can do it. Right?
Sounds like a plan!
why fed cruisers cant use dhc and klingon cruisers can ? (also most of them have cloak)
why cruisers stations suks ?
why cruisers cant be cool ?
if we continue having crappy cruisers ... everyone'll start using sci vessels, escorts, carriers and cruisers will be in the shipyards :eek: waiting devs give them some boost
That's me !
In what game does ES3 or Aux2Sif3 suck because it's not STO? Btw, DEM3 doesn't suck either nor does the Lt Commander Boff ET3.
Fed Cruisers were designed to be slow moving/turning support boats. DHCs would be ineffective. Fly a hybrid ship, Feds have plenty of those now and even ones that can drop pets.
KDF cruisers are designed to be part of a hit and run attack force. They're designed to be more agile and some have cloaks as a result.
There are now a TRIBBLE ton of cruisers and pseudo cruiser hybrid builds which have dps possiblities if you want them. Leave the support cruisers as is.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Perhaps you missed the day when 5 cruiser FaW balls ruled the day. Those days weren't fun for anyway including the Cruiser pilots.
Again there a TRIBBLE ton of ship choices now. If you don't want to play a support Cruiser than don't, pick another ship ffs.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
My cruiser certainly is very cool. Everyone is targeting it in PvP.
EPTS 3 sucks, low heal , useless shield energy, only the shield resist is good
aux 2 sif needs aux in order to be good, what supports the old tac guys idea (hey cruiser ! stop shooting useless faw's around, use torpedos, max that aux power and gimme aux2sif !)
dem 3 ? hahaha
oh, u forgot ewp : oh, yeah ... cruisers cant chase anyone in order to use ewp, sry...
rsp : any experienced player would stop firing when noticing the enemy is using rsp (the same goes to fbp, but thats another story)
boarding party : countered by tac team, wich most ppl have btw
and you tell me that eng stations doenst suck ? hah !
That's me !
if everyone targets your cruiser very often is bcause it isnt cool, its ugly and everyone wants it to disappear from the match
That's me !
what rapid fire cannons ? stupid turrets, single cannons, and using only one cannon rapid fire (1 btw) ? lol
That's me !
First, I mentioned ES as in Extend Shields 3, not EPTS3. But, EPTS3 doesn't suck, you really need to learn the game if you think it does. ES is a support Cruisers bread and butter fyi. If you don't know of this skill I can see why you're having problems.
Again we're talking about support cruisers. If you can't bother to go to a high aux preset when needed fly another ship, since most support repair/resist abilities are aux dependent in terms of performance.
EWP (not to mention the Doffs) is very effective. It's the game's fault you apparently can't figure out a place and time to apply it correctly.
RSP is nice, but not needed for most support cruiser builds. It usually eats up a slot better served for something you can use on an ally as well as yourself.
BP is very situational, but if it gets there can be effective. Personally I wouldn't use it, espcially on support cruiser.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
X being broken and fixed, doesn't mean Y isn't broken.
And seriously, using a broken Tac BOFF ability for a comparison...seriously?
The issue with Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities...is not strictly a Cruiser issue. It affects all ships. It affects Cruisers and Battle Cruisers the most because of usually having the Cmdr/LCdr Eng BOFF slots, but it's not just a Cruiser/BC issue.
The issue with Engineers (which I've tried to avoid in this thread, since it's a Cruiser thread and Cruiser issues don't care about Tac, Eng, or Sci) - is not limited to Cruisers. That issue follows them into whatever ship they fly.
Basically, it sounds like your suggestion is for folks to play Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci...
...funny, that's kind of what I said it looked like Cryptic did with the design of the game.
Which...is...an...issue.
Mass matters. You apply a force to a mass to move it. Larger mass - the more force needed.
It's also not just a case of moving that mass. You don't want that mass to go too fast. You want to be able to stop that mass. You want to move that mass in other directions. You want to be able to turn that mass while moving in a certain direction.
Also, you're not dealing with a solid mass. You have to consider how moving that mass, how turning that mass, how slowing and stopping that mass, will affect that mass. Otherwise, you're going to crumple or rip that mass apart.
It makes a great deal of sense why the smaller ships can move better than the larger ships...
Because Fed cruisers don't use DHCs and KDF do? One of those things where STO pays attention to ST.
The Federation signed a treaty with the Romulans regarding cloaks. Again, a ST thing.
Cruiser BOFF stations don't suck. Engineering BOFF abilities for those stations are too limited.
Cruisers are the coolest. Coolest doesn't mean the best, though - just the coolest.
The devs just released the Ambassador and Kamarag...two cruisers.
What Cmdr/LcDr Eng Boff slot issues are there again? If anything Sci Capt/Lt Commander Boffs have issues, but that's another subject.
I agree Engineers have issues.
My suggestion is if you're going to fly a base Fed Cruiser understand it's designed for team support and if you don't want to fill that role pick another ship. It has nothing to do w/Tac/Tac or Sci/Sci. It has everything to do w/playstyle choices. Exactly, what playstyle chioce do you want that isn't available in this game? Or is you want Fed Cruisers to fill all playstyle chioces?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter