No. The problem in a nutshell is this: everyone wants their favorite ship to be the best. If you really, really like the Galaxy you want it to be the best. If you really, really like the Sovereign you want it to be the best. If you really, really like the Odyssey you want it to be the best.
....
Thats not the point.
I am completely ok with having the Odyssey more powerful than most other cruisers. It completely normal if you think about that it is the newest and the biggest of them all.
I am also Ok with the Sovereign and the Regent as they are.
But the galaxy is completely out of of place in this game.
As i already said, if Cryptics would have acted cleverly and considered the Galaxy Class popularity, then they would have made it par with the Sovereign, just a different focussed in its tactical orientation.
But for me it is NOT ok for it being a hospital for Escorts with almost no offensive capabilities compared to ANY other cruiser in the game, even the Excelsior or Ambassador.
So please stop drawing conclusions about others, based on yourself.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
So please stop drawing conclusions about others, based on yourself.
Oh, the irony...
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
As i already said, if Cryptics would have acted cleverly and considered the Galaxy Class popularity, then they would have made it par with the Sovereign, just a different focussed in its tactical orientation.
So what you are saying is that your beloved Galaxy should be as good as the ship which replaced it in canon? And you don't see how odd that is? It should be as good as a better ship simply because you like it?
Again, this is all about fan-boy preference. We all want the ships we like to be the best.
But for me it is NOT ok for it being a hospital for Escorts with almost no offensive capabilities compared to ANY other cruiser in the game, even the Excelsior or Ambassador.
Can you tell me the DPS difference between an 8 beam 3 Tac Console Cruiser and a 2 Tac Console Cruiser? I'd love to see exactly what you think that number difference is.
So please stop drawing conclusions about others, based on yourself.
I'm not the one telling Cryptic in multiple threads that they have no idea how ships work in Trek. You might want to hide the mirrors in your home.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
How is throwing more and more money at a problem a fix? When the next new ship comes out, and the next and the next, the Galaxy that was "fixed" goes right back to being inferior.
There's been quite a few suggestions, some in this very thread, to make the Galaxy have the same tactical BOFF setup and console setup as the Reagent. And some suggestions to give it even more tactical BOFF powers than even that.
Those aren't ideas I'm a fan of.
It does make a difference. The "new" flagship is even less of a flagship with yet another ship doing what it does.
The end-game situations for cruisers is messed up. But a lot of these ideas only make it more crowded and more confusing.
Besides, at the end of the day, we already know Geko prefers you ALL fly an Excelsior if you bother to choose cruiser.
I'd much rather they just fix the current galaxy, but obviously that wont be done since there is no monetary incentive for them to do so. Which is why a few people are suggesting a galaxy pack.
I should have said none of the sane people in this thread are suggesting an overpowered galaxy class lol. I tend to ignore the people that want 5 cmd uni slots, a turn rate of 20 and 15 console slots.
I'm not sure I understand your comment about the end-game cruiser situation being crowded and confusing. Could you clarify?
FYI - I do actually fly an Excelsior lol. In a way I find myself fortunate. The excelsior has always been one of my favorite ships and it's actually a great ship in game. That's why I sympathize with the galaxy lovers. Their favorite ship is TRIBBLE and that really sucks.
You said: "No. The problem in a nutshell is this: everyone wants their favorite ship to be the best. If you really, really like the Galaxy you want it to be the best. If you really, really like the Sovereign you want it to be the best. If you really, really like the Odyssey you want it to be the best."
When I had previously ended by saying: "No one is asking to make it 'God o' the Cruisers' just have it up to snuff." Equal yet different to an Excelsior. Problem?
I want a ship I paid money for to be better than a ship I didn't pay money for. Not advocating a 'pay to win' approach at all, and I think the current power levels of c-store ships are acceptable, by and large. This business about this ship should be stronger than that ship because this one is newer than that one is a bunch of hogwash. Cryptic has already rendered this sort of reasoning as applied to this topic useless by releasing the Excelsior. A T5 ship should be just that, and different ships should 'be' T5 in a variety of ways but still all perform to the T5 standard. Sorry if you don't care for the ships' skin, because at the end of the day, that's mostly all it should be. Different skins with different layouts that achieve the same thing in different ways. Read again: not asking it to be leaps and bounds above others. Asking it to be on par. As it stands, it is not.
And releasing another version is not the answer either, they need to fix what is broken. Galaxy needs a different BOFF and console layout to get it up to speed I think.
FYI - I do actually fly an Excelsior lol. In a way I find myself fortunate. The excelsior has always been one of my favorite ships and it's actually a great ship in game. That's why I sympathize with the galaxy lovers. Their favorite ship is TRIBBLE and that really sucks.
I wouldn't say the Galaxy is TRIBBLE. That's just the 'grass is greener' syndrome. I fly my Galaxy-R, and it can handle any mission in the game. If it was TRIBBLE, it wouldn't be able to do that.
What most players don't like is that there are ships that are better tactically than the Galaxy, and that it isn't the top-of-the-line ship it was when it slipped off the shipyards decades ago (oddly giving a pass to the Galaxy class they won't for the Excelsior, for the same reasons).
The Galaxy is fine at what it is designed to do. That that isn't what some players want it to be is the issue, and the general lackluster way Engineering abilities are currently implemented. The Engineering system is the problem, and why most want some changes made to the ship (based on the odds of changing the way Engineering abilties work instead).
p.s. As a side note to a previous comment about tankiness, we have yet to see a Galaxy-class ship survive a super-nova scale blast, while we have seen an Excelsior-class (and a first-generation model at that) do so. Again, writer's errors, but if we go with all that has been put on screen is what should be used to determine the basis for ship performance, we do have to consider that as well.
Do you want me to start thread about nerfing the tankyness of Excelsior ? because it can tank TRIBBLE as well compared to the galaxy few seconds later ?
The Odyssey was destroyed just because of plot. To show that the BEST ship starfleet can offer is easily destroyed by Dominion. Not because the ship is bad, but because of a plot to show off the Dominion.
also in that episode the shields where useless the captain dropped the shields and rerouted power to the weapons after this the jems decided to komikazi into the neck of the ship where the torpedoes where stored setting off all 200+ photons that where stored there
actually that was a running theme in DS9 lack of shields or ineffective shields... except the defiant it was like the only ship that remembered that it had them and only then some times
also in that episode the shields where useless the captain dropped the shields and rerouted power to the weapons after this the jems decided to komikazi into the neck of the ship where the torpedoes where stored setting off all 200+ photons that where stored there
actually that was a running theme in DS9 lack of shields or ineffective shields... except the defiant it was like the only ship that remembered that it had them and only then some times
I'm not sure what your point is. The problem with the Odessey wasn't only the ramming it received. Another serious problem was that it offensive weapons were pretty much ineffective against the Jem'Haddar, even with the help of the two runabouts and having shield power transferred to the weapons system. It still wasn't able to destroy a single Jem'Haddar ship.
As far as the shielding, could you please cite what you are describing? By the time that DS9 started showing battles, many ships had dropped the standard shield "bubble" configuration in favor of a "skin tight" shield configuration. By the time that "Nemesis" was shown, even the Ent-E was using the "skin-tight" shield configuration. So again, I don't understand your comment.
So what you are saying is that your beloved Galaxy should be as good as the ship which replaced it in canon? And you don't see how odd that is? It should be as good as a better ship simply because you like it?
Again, this is all about fan-boy preference. We all want the ships we like to be the best.
Can you tell me the DPS difference between an 8 beam 3 Tac Console Cruiser and a 2 Tac Console Cruiser? I'd love to see exactly what you think that number difference is.
I'm not the one telling Cryptic in multiple threads that they have no idea how ships work in Trek. You might want to hide the mirrors in your home.
Ok this is a MMO and clearly its not based on the newest ship being the best. Going beyond that all the ships ingame that are at the same tier and same class should be equal. Im not saying all should have the same boff slots and console layout but all should be as useful as the next one just in a different way. Fan boy preference aside when you make 2 or more items whether they be ships or rifles or magically swords in a mmo they should all be just as good just have different stats layouts or work in different ways to get the job done.
I'm Not Saying that there are not those that want their favorite ship to be the best... Honestly who wouldnt want that. I'd prefer the option to give the cruiser of my choice the layout of my choice so long as i own the ship that had that layout. Honestly I'd prefer all ships be this way so everyone can have the ship they want with the best layout for their playstyle instead of being stuck in something that you don't like because it works best for your style of play. That is another thread though.
The whole beam arrays needing looked at the ensign engineer powers need tweaked or more added. All these would help but seeing as the galaxy is so popular and that there are so many that like the ship it should be worth the time effort and cost to make it more useful to use in endgame where its suppose to be.
I wouldn't say the Galaxy is TRIBBLE. That's just the 'grass is greener' syndrome. I fly my Galaxy-R, and it can handle any mission in the game. If it was TRIBBLE, it wouldn't be able to do that.
What most players don't like is that there are ships that are better tactically than the Galaxy, and that it isn't the top-of-the-line ship it was when it slipped off the shipyards decades ago (oddly giving a pass to the Galaxy class they won't for the Excelsior, for the same reasons).
The Galaxy is fine at what it is designed to do. That that isn't what some players want it to be is the issue, and the general lackluster way Engineering abilities are currently implemented. The Engineering system is the problem, and why most want some changes made to the ship (based on the odds of changing the way Engineering abilties work instead).
Grass is greener' syndrome? Not exactly. Yes the galaxy can do any mission in the game, but it will do it slower and with greater difficulty then in almost any other ship. When I see a Galaxy in an elite stf I cringe (not that I see them very often) because I know the rest of the team is going to have to carry this poor fool since his damage is going to be subpar.
What exactly was the Galaxy designed to do in your eyes? My excelsior can tank just as well as a galaxy, but I can put about 2 or 3 times as much damage. The galaxy is a garbage ship. Sorry, but it's the worst cruiser in the game.
I'm not sure what your point is. The problem with the Odessey wasn't only the ramming it received. Another serious problem was that it offensive weapons were pretty much ineffective against the Jem'Haddar, even with the help of the two runabouts and having shield power transferred to the weapons system. It still wasn't able to destroy a single Jem'Haddar ship.
That was because the weapons hadn't been modified to deal with Dominion shield technology. Later episodes that was correct. and the bugs swatted out of the sky.
As far as the shielding, could you please cite what you are describing? By the time that DS9 started showing battles, many ships had dropped the standard shield "bubble" configuration in favor of a "skin tight" shield configuration. By the time that "Nemesis" was shown, even the Ent-E was using the "skin-tight" shield configuration. So again, I don't understand your comment.
That is simple fanon. The real reason was render time for the all the shield effects would have taken to long to finish the episodes before having to broadcast them.
3- The Odyssey. It's supposed to be the "new" flagship. So creeping up on the Ody kind of defeats the purpose of the ship even existing.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Odyssey already has lost it's position as top cruiser. And it lost it to the Excelsior first. A 200 year old piece of trash. -.-
The Imperial was just another nail in the coffin (thankfully it's an actually modern era ship, unlike that other fugly piece of TRIBBLE).
Shame really. I am rather fond of the Odyssey class. But upgrades for it? NEVER!!! The dominion of ESCORTS shall NEVER BE TOUCHED!!! (according to guys like Geko).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I don't see that anything new of value has been added to this thread for the last 20 pages. It's the same back-and-forth between the Galaxy lovers and the rest who think it's fine as is. I would like to see the Galaxy improved, but this thread aint gonna make it happen.
also in that episode the shields where useless the captain dropped the shields and rerouted power to the weapons after this the jems decided to komikazi into the neck of the ship where the torpedoes where stored setting off all 200+ photons that where stored there
actually that was a running theme in DS9 lack of shields or ineffective shields... except the defiant it was like the only ship that remembered that it had them and only then some times
I'm not sure what your point is. The problem with the Odessey wasn't only the ramming it received. Another serious problem was that it offensive weapons were pretty much ineffective against the Jem'Haddar, even with the help of the two runabouts and having shield power transferred to the weapons system. It still wasn't able to destroy a single Jem'Haddar ship.
As far as the shielding, could you please cite what you are describing? By the time that DS9 started showing battles, many ships had dropped the standard shield "bubble" configuration in favor of a "skin tight" shield configuration. By the time that "Nemesis" was shown, even the Ent-E was using the "skin-tight" shield configuration. So again, I don't understand your comment.
the oddy after the captain said reroute power to weapons even though it was off screen started doing damage it's implied though as it caused the jem to pull back and force them to do the kamikazy run. if the galaxy was as weak as you suggest they should have been able to shrug off the weapon fire and just blow it up with out killing them self's
as for the shields watch basically every fight scene in DS9 and see how many times you actually see shields and how the weapons just go right to the hull of the ship. both fed and dominion it was also mentioned numerous times in dialog how there shields are useless to there weapons fire
some people refuse to accept this, but the dominion was already spying on the federation. that incident was engineered to place another spy, a vorta this time, at DS9. with the info they were able to gather, they could tune their weapons to bypass fed shields completely. but if they can do that, they should be able to have the opposite effect added to thier shields, being basically impervious to phaser fire.
the ody should have swatted them like flys, but they were basically undamaged. after the battle work began on retuning weapons, and by the next encounter at least the phasers worked. and by the time the war started, shields too.
as for the shields watch basically every fight scene in DS9 and see how many times you actually see shields and how the weapons just go right to the hull of the ship. both fed and dominion it was also mentioned numerous times in dialog how there shields are useless to there weapons fire
The producers of the series said that adding shield effects to every single ship during the DS9 battles would have been too complex (in terms of time and money). As for the FED shields being useless to Dominion weaponry. When the Dominion fleet attacks DS9 Damar says somthing like "Their shields are holding". Weyoun then responds "Impossible, their shields have always been useless against our weapons". Till that moment they were but not any longer.
Grass is greener' syndrome? Not exactly. Yes the galaxy can do any mission in the game, but it will do it slower and with greater difficulty then in almost any other ship. When I see a Galaxy in an elite stf I cringe (not that I see them very often) because I know the rest of the team is going to have to carry this poor fool since his damage is going to be subpar.
What exactly was the Galaxy designed to do in your eyes? My excelsior can tank just as well as a galaxy, but I can put about 2 or 3 times as much damage. The galaxy is a garbage ship. Sorry, but it's the worst cruiser in the game.
I'd like to see your Excelsior perform a second Extend Shields while the first is recycling. Yes, I do that for my team, because the purpose of a cruiser is tanking and keeping the other ships on the team alive. This is also of great use in Starbase Blockade missions, where you may not have time to wait for the first to recharge before the freighter you are defending is reduced to atoms.
As to your cringing at seeing a Galaxy in an STF, I can understand that from an Escort captain, since DPS is all you see. On the other hand, they don't give command of Galaxy-class starships to Tactical-minded commanders for a reason; that kind of commander doesn't know how to use the Galaxy to its fullest potential, so better to put them in a Sovereign or an Escort.
Your assertation that it is the worst cruiser in the game is short-sighted, and based purely on its lack of Tactical focus. Since this is not the purpose of a Galaxy-class ship, I think that viewpoint is invalid.
The producers of the series said that adding shield effects to every single ship during the DS9 battles would have been too complex (in terms of time and money). As for the FED shields being useless to Dominion weaponry. When the Dominion fleet attacks DS9 Damar says somthing like "Their shields are holding". Weyoun then responds "Impossible, their shields have always been useless against our weapons". Till that moment they were but not any longer.
so there for the oddy's shields where useless at that point in time thanks for confirming it
i also did say this changed later on or meant too it was late lol but for the discussion of the galaxy and using the oddy's destruction as evidence for it's suck the fact the shields where of no help needs to be mentioned and most likely they had there weapon's frequency as well.
it's heavily implied the dominion where infiltrating the alpha quadrant ever sense the worm hole was open and the federation started looking around
so there for the oddy's shields where useless at that point in time thanks for confirming it
i also did say this changed later on or meant too it was late lol but for the discussion of the galaxy and using the oddy's destruction as evidence for it's suck the fact the shields where of no help needs to be mentioned and most likely they had there weapon's frequency as well.
it's heavily implied the dominion where infiltrating the alpha quadrant ever sense the worm hole was open and the federation started looking around
That the shields were useless was also mentioned moments after the fight started.
KEOGH: "They're using some kind of phased polaron beam to penetrate our shields."
DAX: "Have you tried altering your harmonics to compensate?"
KEOGH: "We've run through the full spectrum, but none of the frequencies were effective. Divert shield power to weapons."
Also the first Jem'hadar to come onto DS9 simply walked through the force field he was in, so yeah they knew what technology they were deailing with.
And it might just be possible they were aware of Federation Weapons technology at the time as well, which might explain how Phasers didn't seem to affect them very much either.;)
I don't see that anything new of value has been added to this thread for the last 20 pages. It's the same back-and-forth between the Galaxy lovers and the rest who think it's fine as is. I would like to see the Galaxy improved, but this thread aint gonna make it happen.
I'm affraid you are right.
But on the other hand, no thread whatsoever will change anything.
The only thing we can remotely hope for is to convince enough people that the Galaxy Class is much too iconic to let it as inferior and passive as it is right now.
With enough people asking questions about the Galaxy Class at every interview the devs make, we could build up enough pressure to make the devs listen to our case.
But discussions about the USS Odyssey, it's incompetent Captain or Crew won't get us anywhere. I think it's just a try by Galaxy Class haters to distract and to add a disruptive element to the Galaxy Class fanbase.
IF we are serious about this, we should focus on finding a common denominator, we can annoy the devs with. Like the enhanced exploration cruiser retrofit 3 packdontdrunkimshoot suggested.
Btw. ANY ship, no matter which one would have survived a kamikaze hit by a Jem Hadar bug ship, not even the Defiant, Excelsior, Sovereign, Odyssey Class, Battlestar Galactica or Imperial Star destroyer.
So i think discussions about this are invalid and lead us nowhere IMO.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I think it's just a try by Galaxy Class haters to distract and to add a disruptive element to the Galaxy Class fanbase.
Or rather it's an attempt by players to show the the TV episodes were fickle, at best - that they were writer-driven rather then based off of hard mechanics. If you are going to base the value of a ship on clips it should include the failures as well as the glories.
And again, there's a difference between not wanting to idolize something and hating it. We don't hate the Galaxy. We simply don't want it to be treated special just because it's a Galaxy.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Or rather it's an attempt by players to show the the TV episodes were fickle, at best - that they were writer-driven rather then based off of hard mechanics. If you are going to base the value of a ship on clips it should include the failures as well as the glories.
And again, there's a difference between not wanting to idolize something and hating it. We don't hate the Galaxy. We simply don't want it to be treated special just because it's a Galaxy.
When we keep it on the abstract level of pure game mechanics it still leaves the old issue of the Galaxy-R: Is it a ship that adds to the team?
Or is it a ship that, in its current form, can do some things as well as other ships can but falls short in others areas and is thus, when you add up all its good and bad characteristics rather weak?
(The point of many people who say she was outperformed by other ships seems to be "she's meant to s**k")
I think the fundamental problem with balancing something like the Galaxy class for a video game is that it is a ship that was the "hero ship" of a 7 season show and one movie.
As the hero ship it got to steam roll over everything in its wake, afterall having the ship blown out from under them in the first season wouldn't be good for production. This can be said of all the main ships though. Good examples of this at work are on Voyager and Enterprise, with the ships in both performing way better than they should have on paper.
Even then you also have to factor in that during the course of TNG it was extremely rare for the Enterprise to actually encounter anything that could remotely challenge it. They were on peaceful terms with the Klingons, the Cardassians were the equivalent of a third world military, and they usually avoided fighting the Romulans head to head (which is actually rather telling). Even the one off moment of blasting up a Borg Cube was quickly retconned in their next encounters.
Sure the ship faired well against the random aliens of the week that they occasionally went up against, but that usually required some last minute technobabble rather than consistant use of the ships strengths. This was offset by the moments when the writers needed the ship to be very weak. Such as when that Miranda-variant (in the time loop episode) clipped a nacelle and caused the entire ship to explode in less than a minute.
By DS9 the non-hero version of the ship was getting carved up like a turkey on a regular basis. Part of this was because of the transition to cgi where they could actually put in battle damage without destroying their very expensive and hard to replace film models.
So with that in mind you just have to accept that the Galaxy isn't going to be the unchallenged jack of all trades that it was in its own show. It isn't the hero of this story so it isn't going to get the benefit of the plot letting it do anything and everything.
Or rather it's an attempt by players to show the the TV episodes were fickle, at best - that they were writer-driven rather then based off of hard mechanics. If you are going to base the value of a ship on clips it should include the failures as well as the glories.
And again, there's a difference between not wanting to idolize something and hating it. We don't hate the Galaxy. We simply don't want it to be treated special just because it's a Galaxy.
Then i would suggest, please start with the defiant and its god like firepower first, before arguing against the galaxy becoming at least as good as its precursors.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Btw. ANY ship, no matter which one would have survived a kamikaze hit by a Jem Hadar bug ship, not even the Defiant, Excelsior, Sovereign, Odyssey Class, Battlestar Galactica or Imperial Star destroyer.
So i think discussions about this are invalid and lead us nowhere IMO.
Quite. If anything, the effect of a warp-driven starship ramming anything hasn't been done justice in ST. Assuming the warp-core breach didn't do enough damage, the sheer energy released by anything travelling at multi-light speeds striking another object hardly needs to be mentioned to anyone familiar with E=MC^2. Even at sublight speeds, a full-on collision is probably unsurvivable by anything short of Spacedock.
By DS9 the non-hero version of the ship was getting carved up like a turkey on a regular basis. Part of this was because of the transition to cgi where they could actually put in battle damage without destroying their very expensive and hard to replace film models.
Show me the "regular basis"..please. For a whole DS9 series, there was actually more Defiant class starships lost, than Galaxies (on screen).
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I think the fundamental problem with balancing something like the Galaxy class for a video game is that it is a ship that was the "hero ship" of a 7 season show and one movie.
That, and that Star Trek never established a clear order of precedence when it came to ship classes, or their roles. A Miranda class could be seen one episode as on equal footing with an Akira, then rendered little more than a moving target to be destroyed by a single grazing shot the next episode. The Galaxy class were considered the Flagships of the Fleet when they were put into service, but it is unclear if the Excelsior outgunned them, or how the Sovereign class compared to it, let alone ships like the Nebula class. Every ship was a 'starship', and pretty much given the same abilities as required by the author of that particular episode.
What they need in STO is a hard classification standard to place ships, and -keep them there-. If an Excelsior is supposed to be a Heavy Cruiser, then define what place a Heavy Cruiser has in the overall structure of the fleet, and put it there. If the Galaxy class is supposed to be an Exploration Cruiser, do the same and keep it in that role.
Sadly, I think that kind of major overhaul is not workable at this point, but that STO will maintain the same tradition of very unfocused classifications for the ships that we see in all of Star Trek. Best we can hope for is that the Galaxy has a place in the game and isn't cast aside in favor of a 'replacement' class by the Devs. Right now, it's sole strength is it's reduced pricetag over the Odyssey. If there were to be a custom interior for the Galaxy, that would probably be enough assuming the pricetag didn't change.
Then i would suggest, please start with the defiant and its god like firepower first, before arguing against the galaxy becoming at least as good as its precursors.
Again, this comes down the the MMO Trinity.
In an MMO Trinity you have the DPS dealer. He is the glass cannon. He can dish-out unrivaled damage that no other Class can come close to equaling but cannot take a lot himself. He constantly needs to be "saved" by the other Classes. Sounds a lot like an Escort, doesn't it?
Then you have the Tank. He can withstand damage that no other Class can endure, but he is only a mid-line damage dealer. His job is to draw aggro and take the beating. His wins are not glorious flurries of explosive power. He wins by outlasting his opponents. Sounds a lot like a Cruiser, doesn't it?
Finally you have the Support. Support's job is to Buff and Debuff. Support slowly weakens foe's shields and resistance, allowing allies to do more damage, while buffing allies. Sounds a lot like a Science Vessel, doesn't it?
And while STO's Trinity is broader then most MMOs, due to all the Captain/Ship mixing and matching, it's still a Trinity of sorts. In an MMO no Tank Class is ever going to be as offensively powerful as the DPS Class.
I'm sorry for you that STO is not a Trek series emulator. It's an MMO with a Trek theme, and it's required to have the tropes that MMO players need to play.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Comments
I am completely ok with having the Odyssey more powerful than most other cruisers. It completely normal if you think about that it is the newest and the biggest of them all.
I am also Ok with the Sovereign and the Regent as they are.
But the galaxy is completely out of of place in this game.
As i already said, if Cryptics would have acted cleverly and considered the Galaxy Class popularity, then they would have made it par with the Sovereign, just a different focussed in its tactical orientation.
But for me it is NOT ok for it being a hospital for Escorts with almost no offensive capabilities compared to ANY other cruiser in the game, even the Excelsior or Ambassador.
So please stop drawing conclusions about others, based on yourself.
Oh, the irony...
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Again, this is all about fan-boy preference. We all want the ships we like to be the best.
Can you tell me the DPS difference between an 8 beam 3 Tac Console Cruiser and a 2 Tac Console Cruiser? I'd love to see exactly what you think that number difference is.
I'm not the one telling Cryptic in multiple threads that they have no idea how ships work in Trek. You might want to hide the mirrors in your home.
I'd much rather they just fix the current galaxy, but obviously that wont be done since there is no monetary incentive for them to do so. Which is why a few people are suggesting a galaxy pack.
I should have said none of the sane people in this thread are suggesting an overpowered galaxy class lol. I tend to ignore the people that want 5 cmd uni slots, a turn rate of 20 and 15 console slots.
I'm not sure I understand your comment about the end-game cruiser situation being crowded and confusing. Could you clarify?
FYI - I do actually fly an Excelsior lol. In a way I find myself fortunate. The excelsior has always been one of my favorite ships and it's actually a great ship in game. That's why I sympathize with the galaxy lovers. Their favorite ship is TRIBBLE and that really sucks.
When I had previously ended by saying: "No one is asking to make it 'God o' the Cruisers' just have it up to snuff." Equal yet different to an Excelsior. Problem?
I want a ship I paid money for to be better than a ship I didn't pay money for. Not advocating a 'pay to win' approach at all, and I think the current power levels of c-store ships are acceptable, by and large. This business about this ship should be stronger than that ship because this one is newer than that one is a bunch of hogwash. Cryptic has already rendered this sort of reasoning as applied to this topic useless by releasing the Excelsior. A T5 ship should be just that, and different ships should 'be' T5 in a variety of ways but still all perform to the T5 standard. Sorry if you don't care for the ships' skin, because at the end of the day, that's mostly all it should be. Different skins with different layouts that achieve the same thing in different ways. Read again: not asking it to be leaps and bounds above others. Asking it to be on par. As it stands, it is not.
And releasing another version is not the answer either, they need to fix what is broken. Galaxy needs a different BOFF and console layout to get it up to speed I think.
I wouldn't say the Galaxy is TRIBBLE. That's just the 'grass is greener' syndrome. I fly my Galaxy-R, and it can handle any mission in the game. If it was TRIBBLE, it wouldn't be able to do that.
What most players don't like is that there are ships that are better tactically than the Galaxy, and that it isn't the top-of-the-line ship it was when it slipped off the shipyards decades ago (oddly giving a pass to the Galaxy class they won't for the Excelsior, for the same reasons).
The Galaxy is fine at what it is designed to do. That that isn't what some players want it to be is the issue, and the general lackluster way Engineering abilities are currently implemented. The Engineering system is the problem, and why most want some changes made to the ship (based on the odds of changing the way Engineering abilties work instead).
p.s. As a side note to a previous comment about tankiness, we have yet to see a Galaxy-class ship survive a super-nova scale blast, while we have seen an Excelsior-class (and a first-generation model at that) do so. Again, writer's errors, but if we go with all that has been put on screen is what should be used to determine the basis for ship performance, we do have to consider that as well.
also in that episode the shields where useless the captain dropped the shields and rerouted power to the weapons after this the jems decided to komikazi into the neck of the ship where the torpedoes where stored setting off all 200+ photons that where stored there
actually that was a running theme in DS9 lack of shields or ineffective shields... except the defiant it was like the only ship that remembered that it had them and only then some times
I'm not sure what your point is. The problem with the Odessey wasn't only the ramming it received. Another serious problem was that it offensive weapons were pretty much ineffective against the Jem'Haddar, even with the help of the two runabouts and having shield power transferred to the weapons system. It still wasn't able to destroy a single Jem'Haddar ship.
As far as the shielding, could you please cite what you are describing? By the time that DS9 started showing battles, many ships had dropped the standard shield "bubble" configuration in favor of a "skin tight" shield configuration. By the time that "Nemesis" was shown, even the Ent-E was using the "skin-tight" shield configuration. So again, I don't understand your comment.
Ok this is a MMO and clearly its not based on the newest ship being the best. Going beyond that all the ships ingame that are at the same tier and same class should be equal. Im not saying all should have the same boff slots and console layout but all should be as useful as the next one just in a different way. Fan boy preference aside when you make 2 or more items whether they be ships or rifles or magically swords in a mmo they should all be just as good just have different stats layouts or work in different ways to get the job done.
I'm Not Saying that there are not those that want their favorite ship to be the best... Honestly who wouldnt want that. I'd prefer the option to give the cruiser of my choice the layout of my choice so long as i own the ship that had that layout. Honestly I'd prefer all ships be this way so everyone can have the ship they want with the best layout for their playstyle instead of being stuck in something that you don't like because it works best for your style of play. That is another thread though.
The whole beam arrays needing looked at the ensign engineer powers need tweaked or more added. All these would help but seeing as the galaxy is so popular and that there are so many that like the ship it should be worth the time effort and cost to make it more useful to use in endgame where its suppose to be.
Grass is greener' syndrome? Not exactly. Yes the galaxy can do any mission in the game, but it will do it slower and with greater difficulty then in almost any other ship. When I see a Galaxy in an elite stf I cringe (not that I see them very often) because I know the rest of the team is going to have to carry this poor fool since his damage is going to be subpar.
What exactly was the Galaxy designed to do in your eyes? My excelsior can tank just as well as a galaxy, but I can put about 2 or 3 times as much damage. The galaxy is a garbage ship. Sorry, but it's the worst cruiser in the game.
That is simple fanon. The real reason was render time for the all the shield effects would have taken to long to finish the episodes before having to broadcast them.
The real reason DS9 is filled with Galaxies, Mirandas and Excelsiors is because it was far cheaper to use old models.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Odyssey already has lost it's position as top cruiser. And it lost it to the Excelsior first. A 200 year old piece of trash. -.-
The Imperial was just another nail in the coffin (thankfully it's an actually modern era ship, unlike that other fugly piece of TRIBBLE).
Shame really. I am rather fond of the Odyssey class. But upgrades for it? NEVER!!! The dominion of ESCORTS shall NEVER BE TOUCHED!!! (according to guys like Geko).
the oddy after the captain said reroute power to weapons even though it was off screen started doing damage it's implied though as it caused the jem to pull back and force them to do the kamikazy run. if the galaxy was as weak as you suggest they should have been able to shrug off the weapon fire and just blow it up with out killing them self's
as for the shields watch basically every fight scene in DS9 and see how many times you actually see shields and how the weapons just go right to the hull of the ship. both fed and dominion it was also mentioned numerous times in dialog how there shields are useless to there weapons fire
the ody should have swatted them like flys, but they were basically undamaged. after the battle work began on retuning weapons, and by the next encounter at least the phasers worked. and by the time the war started, shields too.
The producers of the series said that adding shield effects to every single ship during the DS9 battles would have been too complex (in terms of time and money). As for the FED shields being useless to Dominion weaponry. When the Dominion fleet attacks DS9 Damar says somthing like "Their shields are holding". Weyoun then responds "Impossible, their shields have always been useless against our weapons". Till that moment they were but not any longer.
I'd like to see your Excelsior perform a second Extend Shields while the first is recycling. Yes, I do that for my team, because the purpose of a cruiser is tanking and keeping the other ships on the team alive. This is also of great use in Starbase Blockade missions, where you may not have time to wait for the first to recharge before the freighter you are defending is reduced to atoms.
As to your cringing at seeing a Galaxy in an STF, I can understand that from an Escort captain, since DPS is all you see. On the other hand, they don't give command of Galaxy-class starships to Tactical-minded commanders for a reason; that kind of commander doesn't know how to use the Galaxy to its fullest potential, so better to put them in a Sovereign or an Escort.
Your assertation that it is the worst cruiser in the game is short-sighted, and based purely on its lack of Tactical focus. Since this is not the purpose of a Galaxy-class ship, I think that viewpoint is invalid.
so there for the oddy's shields where useless at that point in time thanks for confirming it
i also did say this changed later on or meant too it was late lol but for the discussion of the galaxy and using the oddy's destruction as evidence for it's suck the fact the shields where of no help needs to be mentioned and most likely they had there weapon's frequency as well.
it's heavily implied the dominion where infiltrating the alpha quadrant ever sense the worm hole was open and the federation started looking around
That the shields were useless was also mentioned moments after the fight started.
KEOGH: "They're using some kind of phased polaron beam to penetrate our shields."
DAX: "Have you tried altering your harmonics to compensate?"
KEOGH: "We've run through the full spectrum, but none of the frequencies were effective. Divert shield power to weapons."
Also the first Jem'hadar to come onto DS9 simply walked through the force field he was in, so yeah they knew what technology they were deailing with.
And it might just be possible they were aware of Federation Weapons technology at the time as well, which might explain how Phasers didn't seem to affect them very much either.;)
But on the other hand, no thread whatsoever will change anything.
The only thing we can remotely hope for is to convince enough people that the Galaxy Class is much too iconic to let it as inferior and passive as it is right now.
With enough people asking questions about the Galaxy Class at every interview the devs make, we could build up enough pressure to make the devs listen to our case.
But discussions about the USS Odyssey, it's incompetent Captain or Crew won't get us anywhere. I think it's just a try by Galaxy Class haters to distract and to add a disruptive element to the Galaxy Class fanbase.
IF we are serious about this, we should focus on finding a common denominator, we can annoy the devs with. Like the enhanced exploration cruiser retrofit 3 pack dontdrunkimshoot suggested.
Btw. ANY ship, no matter which one would have survived a kamikaze hit by a Jem Hadar bug ship, not even the Defiant, Excelsior, Sovereign, Odyssey Class, Battlestar Galactica or Imperial Star destroyer.
So i think discussions about this are invalid and lead us nowhere IMO.
And again, there's a difference between not wanting to idolize something and hating it. We don't hate the Galaxy. We simply don't want it to be treated special just because it's a Galaxy.
When we keep it on the abstract level of pure game mechanics it still leaves the old issue of the Galaxy-R: Is it a ship that adds to the team?
Or is it a ship that, in its current form, can do some things as well as other ships can but falls short in others areas and is thus, when you add up all its good and bad characteristics rather weak?
(The point of many people who say she was outperformed by other ships seems to be "she's meant to s**k")
As the hero ship it got to steam roll over everything in its wake, afterall having the ship blown out from under them in the first season wouldn't be good for production. This can be said of all the main ships though. Good examples of this at work are on Voyager and Enterprise, with the ships in both performing way better than they should have on paper.
Even then you also have to factor in that during the course of TNG it was extremely rare for the Enterprise to actually encounter anything that could remotely challenge it. They were on peaceful terms with the Klingons, the Cardassians were the equivalent of a third world military, and they usually avoided fighting the Romulans head to head (which is actually rather telling). Even the one off moment of blasting up a Borg Cube was quickly retconned in their next encounters.
Sure the ship faired well against the random aliens of the week that they occasionally went up against, but that usually required some last minute technobabble rather than consistant use of the ships strengths. This was offset by the moments when the writers needed the ship to be very weak. Such as when that Miranda-variant (in the time loop episode) clipped a nacelle and caused the entire ship to explode in less than a minute.
By DS9 the non-hero version of the ship was getting carved up like a turkey on a regular basis. Part of this was because of the transition to cgi where they could actually put in battle damage without destroying their very expensive and hard to replace film models.
So with that in mind you just have to accept that the Galaxy isn't going to be the unchallenged jack of all trades that it was in its own show. It isn't the hero of this story so it isn't going to get the benefit of the plot letting it do anything and everything.
Then i would suggest, please start with the defiant and its god like firepower first, before arguing against the galaxy becoming at least as good as its precursors.
Quite. If anything, the effect of a warp-driven starship ramming anything hasn't been done justice in ST. Assuming the warp-core breach didn't do enough damage, the sheer energy released by anything travelling at multi-light speeds striking another object hardly needs to be mentioned to anyone familiar with E=MC^2. Even at sublight speeds, a full-on collision is probably unsurvivable by anything short of Spacedock.
Show me the "regular basis"..please. For a whole DS9 series, there was actually more Defiant class starships lost, than Galaxies (on screen).
From memory, 1 galaxy class was lost in DS9 whilst 2 defiant class ships where lost.
Galaxy was Odyssey, the Defiant class where Defiant and Valient.
That, and that Star Trek never established a clear order of precedence when it came to ship classes, or their roles. A Miranda class could be seen one episode as on equal footing with an Akira, then rendered little more than a moving target to be destroyed by a single grazing shot the next episode. The Galaxy class were considered the Flagships of the Fleet when they were put into service, but it is unclear if the Excelsior outgunned them, or how the Sovereign class compared to it, let alone ships like the Nebula class. Every ship was a 'starship', and pretty much given the same abilities as required by the author of that particular episode.
What they need in STO is a hard classification standard to place ships, and -keep them there-. If an Excelsior is supposed to be a Heavy Cruiser, then define what place a Heavy Cruiser has in the overall structure of the fleet, and put it there. If the Galaxy class is supposed to be an Exploration Cruiser, do the same and keep it in that role.
Sadly, I think that kind of major overhaul is not workable at this point, but that STO will maintain the same tradition of very unfocused classifications for the ships that we see in all of Star Trek. Best we can hope for is that the Galaxy has a place in the game and isn't cast aside in favor of a 'replacement' class by the Devs. Right now, it's sole strength is it's reduced pricetag over the Odyssey. If there were to be a custom interior for the Galaxy, that would probably be enough assuming the pricetag didn't change.
In an MMO Trinity you have the DPS dealer. He is the glass cannon. He can dish-out unrivaled damage that no other Class can come close to equaling but cannot take a lot himself. He constantly needs to be "saved" by the other Classes. Sounds a lot like an Escort, doesn't it?
Then you have the Tank. He can withstand damage that no other Class can endure, but he is only a mid-line damage dealer. His job is to draw aggro and take the beating. His wins are not glorious flurries of explosive power. He wins by outlasting his opponents. Sounds a lot like a Cruiser, doesn't it?
Finally you have the Support. Support's job is to Buff and Debuff. Support slowly weakens foe's shields and resistance, allowing allies to do more damage, while buffing allies. Sounds a lot like a Science Vessel, doesn't it?
And while STO's Trinity is broader then most MMOs, due to all the Captain/Ship mixing and matching, it's still a Trinity of sorts. In an MMO no Tank Class is ever going to be as offensively powerful as the DPS Class.
I'm sorry for you that STO is not a Trek series emulator. It's an MMO with a Trek theme, and it's required to have the tropes that MMO players need to play.