They don't care, I think. Mai, Roach, the Big Panda guy - they are too afraid that if this does not work, they will have no one to play against as premade as there are not enough premades to have lot of organized matches and rest of PvPers will use solo queue.
And they are afraid that if it works, and people do start to PvP - they wont have anyone to play against because most players will use the "easy-mode" queues - searching for fun, not "pro" PvP.
So they will oppose such divide no matter if it has a chance to work or not.
BTW - if I remember ooold times and some DEV talking about changes to PvP: were they not proposing something like this. Completely random, no-teaming, cross-faction single queue?
uhh.... im totally against splitting the que....
for all the reason i listed. if you dont understand that then theres really nothing else to get across.
pvp is DIFFERENT from pve, it REQUIRES teamwork, it REQUIRES you to play differently.
why should people who are prepaired for that, suffer?
Any why should people who dont to play this way don't get a PvP as they want - at all? What will you say if all that's left in PvP are those "oh so team play" pros and AFKers farming dillithium - because anyone else will left not finding the fun they are searching for?
How such situation will be different from separating queues - outside of the fact that separate queues may give you someone to play against (people who will be willing to try PvP at organized level) and the current status quo - wont?
As virusdancer said - STO is primarly solo game. You can pug and solo all the content. You can form teams if you want, but you can go solo with relative ease through all of it. PvP is the only exception to this. Only one. It was different earlier, but this earlier wont come back. So we need to work with what we have - and this means people who play the game solo. And want to play the PvP this way.
Log in, spent an hour or two at pew pew, log out. Don't care about finding friends (they have ones waiting with ball and bear at fresh air), teaming, training and what else.
Gods, whats so hard with understanding that no all people are die hard PvPers who spent time on forums discussing build, chat in OPvP, train, organize. Most is not like this, most wants some fun. Some fun and they wont get it in current form of PvP queues. They could season or two ago. Not now.
Any why should people who dont to play this way don't get a PvP as they want - at all? What will you say if all that's left in PvP are those "oh so team play" pros and AFKers farming dillithium - because anyone else will left not finding the fun they are searching for?
How such situation will be different from separating queues - outside of the fact that separate queues may give you someone to play against (people who will be willing to try PvP at organized level) and the current status quo - wont?
As virusdancer said - STO is primarly solo game. You can pug and solo all the content. You can form teams if you want, but you can go solo with relative ease through all of it. PvP is the only exception to this. Only one. It was different earlier, but this earlier wont come back. So we need to work with what we have - and this means people who play the game solo. And want to play the PvP this way.
Log in, spent an hour or two at pew pew, log out. Don't care about finding friends (they have ones waiting with ball and bear at fresh air), teaming, training and what else.
Gods, whats so hard with understanding that no all people are die hard PvPers who spent time on forums discussing build, chat in OPvP, train, organize. Most is not like this, most wants some fun. Some fun and they wont get it in current form of PvP queues. They could season or two ago. Not now.
all i can say about those people are, then i guess this pvp isnt for them the way its intended to be.
what about all the pvp'rs that are FORCED to play pve to get ANYTHING of use in pvp? if you make pvp like this, then id like pve to be like how pvp is currently. REQUIRING a team to win.
all i can say about those people are, then i guess this pvp isnt for them the way its intended to be.
what about all the pvp'rs that are FORCED to play pve to get ANYTHING of use in pvp? if you make pvp like this, then id like pve to be like how pvp is currently. REQUIRING a team to win.
Amen to that. If the game required teamwork in PvE, maybe there would be less fail players trying to shape PvP to what they want it to be instead of learning to play it the way it is intended.
edit: I have maintained for a while that the lack of challenging PvE content is the main cause for players failing when they try PvP.
Okay, I'll give it a go. Premades are not the problem, something else is keeping prospective players out of PvP. I personally blame the unbalanced toys Cryptic keeps dropping into the game in console form, and the lack of well-defined roles that these toys have caused.
You guys are talking about a symptom of the problem, not the disease itself.
While I don't disagree as a whole (I kinda hate the Bug ship & carrier spam as well) -- here's another way to look at things :
A while back , someone told a story about a PVP game shard that had a guild that instead of fighting/defeating it's "competition" , they simply absorbed them and declared victory .
The next day , they found PVP to be ... lacking because simply put , as there was nobody interesting left to fight .
How is this relevant to STO ?
STO seems to be suffering from the V2.0 of this issue .
Several guilds have absorbed all the best players ... -- and instead of creating an inter-guild turnaments and other fun stuff to challange each other , these multiple "super-guilds" languish about , QQ-ing that there is no one interesting to fight anymore .
Well guess what Bubba ?
You -- the way you're set up , the way you expect the solutions to be given to you + Cryptic's inability to separate the skill/equipment trees from PVE -- you both are two sides of the same coin .
'Cause right now , with Cryptic's "rush-job" leveling from Zero to Hero in a week -- right now , you , with your finely tuned & Doffed ships , are meeting these "one week Admirals" in PVP -- and it does not matter if you meet them as Pugs or Premades at this point .
The point is , no matter what , you will still stomp them badly and drive them away ... , even those few that did give PVP a chance .
So ... -- Cryptic can either bring out the steam roller and flatten everything and start from scratch and give EVERYONE equal footing (this would include demolishing some of your finely tuned machines unfortunetly) , or it will continue to be stomp-ville , in either Minor or Major .
In short , unless PVP get's it's own dedicated "season" and get's rebuilt ... .
While I don't disagree as a whole (I kinda hate the Bug ship & carrier spam as well) -- here's another way to look at things :
A while back , someone told a story about a PVP game shard that had a guild that instead of fighting/defeating it's "competition" , they simply absorbed them and declared victory .
The next day , they found PVP to be ... lacking because simply put , as there was nobody interesting left to fight .
How is this relevant to STO ?
STO seems to be suffering from the V2.0 of this issue .
Several guilds have absorbed all the best players ... -- and instead of creating an inter-guild turnaments and other fun stuff to challange each other , these multiple "super-guilds" languish about , QQ-ing that there is no one interesting to fight anymore .
Well guess what Bubba ?
You -- the way you're set up , the way you expect the solutions to be given to you + Cryptic's inability to separate the skill/equipment trees from PVE -- you both are two sides of the same coin .
'Cause right now , with Cryptic's "rush-job" leveling from Zero to Hero in a week -- right now , you , with your finely tuned & Doffed ships , are meeting these "one week Admirals" in PVP -- and it does not matter if you meet them as Pugs or Premades at this point .
The point is , no matter what , you will still stomp them badly and drive them away ... , even those few that did give PVP a chance .
So ... -- Cryptic can either bring out the steam roller and flatten everything and start from scratch and give EVERYONE equal footing (this would include demolishing some of your finely tuned machines unfortunetly) , or it will continue to be stomp-ville , in either Minor or Major .
In short , unless PVP get's it's own dedicated "season" and get's rebuilt ... .
well they said theres new "tech" and season 9 will be for pvp....
you cant put everyone on equal footing either because of the power creep theyve introduced needlessly.
Amen to that. If the game required teamwork in PvE
But there is PvE that requires teamwork.
I think that's something that's being glossed over here.
They're not asking for FFA PvP - they're asking for PUG vs. PUG. It's still team vs. team. It's like when they throw together a PUG for a STF.
It kind of reminds me of the Arena Heroes vs. Battleground Heroes "discussions" over in WoW. I thought Arena was boring. The odds heavily favored that you were going to face whatever FotW comp was popular - you were almost always facing the same thing. You might as well be playing a FPS. That's what some folks wanted.
Me? I craved the randomness of the PUG battles in a Battleground. Much like there's the increased challenge in PvP compared to PvE because of it not being scripted, when you don't know who's going to be on your team nor who's going to be on the other team - it presents a greater challenge. Making do with what you've got against them making do with what they've got - pulling out that victory - awesome sauce.
PUG vs. PUG is still going to require teamwork. If a PUG runs around doing their own thing against a PUG working together - the PUG that works together is going to win.
The teamwork argument is a non-argument, because it doesn't exclude PUG vs. PUG. It's still going to require teamwork... no different than when they're running a STF.
Queue times.
Queue times for playing with friends.
Those two things tend to be the only valid arguments...and depending on the situation, they tend to be very valid arguments. STO's such a case where they look to be a very valid argument given the way things are now.
Which gets back into trying to make PvP more inviting - looking at trying to get PUGvPUG queues popping and looking at the folks that will move on from PUGvPUG to Team matches - having those queues popping as well. It's an investment in the PvP that may not have an instant payoff, but it would be better for the game down the road...
'Cause right now , with Cryptic's "rush-job" leveling from Zero to Hero in a week -- right now , you , with your finely tuned & Doffed ships , are meeting these "one week Admirals" in PVP -- and it does not matter if you meet them as Pugs or Premades at this point .
Play low level PvP (ok, stay in low level Ker'rat). It's so refreshing to play with and against players that have free ships and one, rather meaningless variation of them, no consoles, no sets and actually no DOFFs. And you have more or less the same. Either you win or loose, but your graphic card does not freeze from the spam throwed by both sides and if you loose you know, that you lost because other side was better and had better skills, not because they had more time to get all the rep, DOFFs, sets and other stuff.
If Cryptic could only allow to stay on one level without leveling I would probably return to the game (leveling new toon to cmdr each few weeks is not fun). Or if there was some sort of "no cheese, no DOFFs, no sets" PvP area for lvl 50 (but this wont happen - money must flow, after all).
And that invariably comes back to the queues again.
You've got a queue that doesn't pop that frequently to begin with...
You split that into PUGs 'n Premades.
You've got two queues that do not pop that frequently now.
You split them into PUGs (w/ stuff), PUGs (w/o stuff), Premades (w/ stuff), Premades (w/o stuff)...
...and you're looking at four queues that may or may not ever pop.
Need a healthy population or the guarantee of a healthy population to start doing things like that. It's a gamble - Cryptic might not only fail to see additional revenue from the endeavor, they might even lose revenue from the folks that walk away.
Not neccessarily a queue. Ker'rat-like zone with autodisable for all P2W stuff and DOFF powers. But I don't want this, it will be nice, it won't happen (money, who will buy P2W if it ges disabled). Just some day dreaming.
We left because the pugs, kept whining about evil premades, hacks and more, even when they got whipped without any premades being present same with hacks.
We left because there are Facerollers, that still whine about the power of dps, when healing is so far and above damage that it's pathetic.
We left because despite our efforts to teach, and help those in need. They continued to cry whine, and hate.
And then the game went f2p. We came back hoping to find new players to teach, train and help. we came back hoping that maybe the devs had learned from their mistakes.
And we were disappointed, and finally we left again.
And now good games have come out and we have stayed gone. Only using the game as a chat box and to keep pace on the forums. And we find the Facerollers have taken more of the forum over, because so few of us even bothered to check back here.
I logged in once a few weeks ago during Prime Time, for the pvp ques. It took 30 minutes for FvF to pop with Zero in the FvK que. That pop then proceeded to fail and it was another 15 minutes of waiting between failed que pops before I managed to get in the game. When I got into the game, my team mates did 1/10th the damage I did combined and I shot the enemy team to pieces so hard, that it was a 15 to 5 victory. Because they sucked so hard.
I then switched to my healer. And even factoring in my own team mates sheer incomptence, and not even being able to balance their own shields or even bother with TT. I made the match a 15 and 0 affair.
And then I quit bothering to que at all.
Because the community at this point, is as incompetent as the developers, and both still have zero interest in getting better.
For the record, alot of the remaining pvp guilds... small as they were (think 5 guys total), also merged together. Because of the Azn Grinder known as the starbases. Which further killed the ques. STO is dying. Just let it die already please guys.
you guys still don't get it there are plenty of people interested in pvp that avoid it for many reasons and they may never return to the ques
but for the NEW players that join that are being churned out of pvp due to getting stomped on by players like you MAI.They can learn but not instantly they must learn over time in a more fair que.
you want to know why pvp fails to grow because you churn people away faster then they are joining the game even.This is why pvp will become an extinct part of this game those that love the pvp don't have the will to compromise to let it flourish.
you guys still don't get it there are plenty of people interested in pvp that avoid it for many reasons and they may never return to the ques
but for the NEW players that join that are being churned out of pvp due to getting stomped on by players like you MAI.They can learn but not instantly they must learn over time in a more fair que.
you want to know why pvp fails to grow because you churn people away faster then they are joining the game even.This is why pvp will become an extinct part of this game those that love the pvp don't have the will to compromise to let it flourish.
Those are the same players that I'd probably One Pass in an Eng Cruiser. What, should they make a 'veteran only1111" que too?
No one tries pvp in this game. By and large, the Faceroll community is just that. They're happy to go to drozana and ERP rather than do something that engages their competitive and strategic thinking centers of the brain.
For that matter no one is really new to this game either. This game quit gaining players back in season 2 and has since lost more than they gained. Hence the more and more blatant, Cash Grabs cryptic keeps trying to desperately stay afloat.
im still having fun mav, the new toys are fun, what my builds have evolved into is fun, and theres still a good group of guys playing. your prime time proboly took place during a fleet mark or rep bonus hour, when those arent on ques pop pretty often, even on of periods too.
the bugs are bigger and more hilarious then ever though. and thanks to star bases and rep system, having more then about 4 characters simply isn't feasible.
im still having fun mav, the new toys are fun, what my builds have evolved into is fun, and theres still a good group of guys playing. your prime time proboly took place during a fleet mark or rep bonus hour, when those arent on ques pop pretty often, even on of periods too.
the bugs are bigger and more hilarious then ever though. and thanks to star bases and rep system, having more then about 4 characters simply isn't feasible.
See that's the difference. I don't enjoy TRIBBLE being served up wrapped in silver paper being presented to me as a gift. I don't enjoy that the game more and more is just becoming a cheap imitation Azn Grinder, and Open Your Wallet To Win experience.
For me that's the hallmark of Trash.
That good group of guys you mention is hardly on. And they are hardly enough of them to offset the just out right fail levels of the majority of the population. It's boring to know that in 90 percent of the matches I que for, I'm not just going to win. But I'm going to utterly Dominate. So much of my gaming skill atrophied because of staying in STO the last year and a half. I'm so far behind in several other games now that I'm still struggling in some titles that I love dearly.
STO could have been great, it could have been beyond the pale amazing. And then cryptic took a dump on it, and wrapped it in silver paper, with a keylock on it, and then tried to sell us all keys for money. And then as if that were not bad enough, then they puked out the star base system, which killed any chance of new guilds coming out to challenge the big dogs, or even just high end players.
See that's the difference. I don't enjoy TRIBBLE being served up wrapped in silver paper being presented to me as a gift. I don't enjoy that the game more and more is just becoming a cheap imitation Azn Grinder, and Open Your Wallet To Win experience.
For me that's the hallmark of Trash.
That good group of guys you mention is hardly on. And they are hardly enough of them to offset the just out right fail levels of the majority of the population. It's boring to know that in 90 percent of the matches I que for, I'm not just going to win. But I'm going to utterly Dominate. So much of my gaming skill atrophied because of staying in STO the last year and a half. I'm so far behind in several other games now that I'm still struggling in some titles that I love dearly.
STO could have been great, it could have been beyond the pale amazing. And then cryptic took a dump on it, and wrapped it in silver paper, with a keylock on it, and then tried to sell us all keys for money. And then as if that were not bad enough, then they puked out the star base system, which killed any chance of new guilds coming out to challenge the big dogs, or even just high end players.
thankfully the toys from lock boxes have yet to make me want them, with the exception of the temperal console, and thats just lobi. so there hasnt been anything that makes me trully sour on it yet, other then on principle. but thats free to play for you. grind, or pay more then ever.
for all the reason i listed. if you dont understand that then theres really nothing else to get across.
pvp is DIFFERENT from pve, it REQUIRES teamwork, it REQUIRES you to play differently.
why should people who are prepaired for that, suffer?
Well I won't disagree with you I love premade pvp...
My issue has always been the idea of a que to begin with... this game needs more open world objective based pvp... but that will never happen and we all know it.
Splitting the que won't work, the population doesn't exist.. I do understand the frustration of some of the new players though... I have came late to other games and understand how the end game pvp beat down can be painful.
Having said that in MOST other mmos there is enough pvp in the lower levels to allow new players to level a toon doing lots of pvp and learning the game... and if they are still not ready at end game... they can roll an alt and level that and by the time they get 2 toons up chances are they can hold there own.
Cryptic has failed pvp in this game by destroying low level pvp.
I would think instead of wasting resources on splitting ques... We should be asking Cryptic to promote PvP in STO... by making LOW level pvp a great leveling option.
What if ALL the fleet / Rep bonus times that mean NOTHING to low level players... rewarded Massive Bonus PvP Skill Points. I know they will be claim AFK players will auto level and that would be terrible... but lets be frank they already do that with the PvE reward hour. Give people a reason to pvp in the lower tiers.... heck take the idea of some of the Klingon Ship killer / Good Day to die missions ect... and create LOW level only PvP wrapper missions... Kill 25 Player ships Boom 5000 Skill points... Kill 100 Player ships Boom 10,000 skill points and a reward 1hr skill point booster.
Give those new players ques safe from the mean end game players with 3 years of gear. (I only slighly joke... really guys we all know gear isn't super important, however lets be honest we all have the best mostly... and 3 years of XP in how to use it)....
Get those new players PvPing before they hit the ques with the big fish.
Doing something like this would be very little work for the Cryptic guys... just adding bonuses to the stuff already in rotation... + perhaps a few wrapper missions.... we all agree that low level pvp was some of the funnest PvP we remember doing... I don't think any new players that get a taste of it early without the lockbox ships and all the terrible end game junk will find it terrible. (granted those stupid +1 ships with consoles are an issue now... compared to when most of us low level pvped... still I bet it would drive some pvp population upward)
well they said theres new "tech" and season 9 will be for pvp....
There is the supposed new tech and there's what you can do with it .
Cryptic/Gozer have been utterly silent (afaik) as to what this new tech supposedly does .
All I know was that a test map was in progress that had the division between kdf/fed erased and they all fought together as two teams .
That's not much info (to make judgement upon) , but to me it does not address neither the Death Machines VS One Week Admirals issue , nor the constant (unintentional) TRIBBLE about w/pvp powers when something in PVE gets introduced/altered .
you cant put everyone on equal footing either because of the power creep theyve introduced needlessly.
Not sure what you mean by "power creep" . "OP" ships/powers ? Doffs ?
Play low level PvP (ok, stay in low level Ker'rat). It's so refreshing to play with and against players that have free ships and one, rather meaningless variation of them, no consoles, no sets and actually no DOFFs. And you have more or less the same. Either you win or loose, but your graphic card does not freeze from the spam throwed by both sides and if you loose you know, that you lost because other side was better and had better skills, not because they had more time to get all the rep, DOFFs, sets and other stuff.
If Cryptic could only allow to stay on one level without leveling I would probably return to the game (leveling new toon to cmdr each few weeks is not fun). Or if there was some sort of "no cheese, no DOFFs, no sets" PvP area for lvl 50 (but this wont happen - money must flow, after all).
I have to agree that low level PVP is the best .
Few powers VS few powers -- instead of the over bloated power extravaganza that only multiple keybinds can make use of at this point -- I laugh when I think what else can they throw in this bloated soup at the next Tier .
When a low level player only has to remember :
This Heals Me ,
This Heals My Shields ,
This Makes Me Go Faster ,
This Gives Me a Little Extra Pew-Pew,
When the new player has to remember only 4 things -- he will concentrate more on the battle , and likely give you a better fight .
He does not have to deal with 4 offensive powers being keybind and unleashed as one ('cause he prolly can't keybind and at best uses them one by one) and so on and so forth .
There is the supposed new tech and there's what you can do with it .
Cryptic/Gozer have been utterly silent (afaik) as to what this new tech supposedly does .
All I know was that a test map was in progress that had the division between kdf/fed erased and they all fought together as two teams .
That's not much info (to make judgement upon) , but to me it does not address neither the Death Machines VS One Week Admirals issue , nor the constant (unintentional) TRIBBLE about w/pvp powers when something in PVE gets introduced/altered .
Not sure what you mean by "power creep" . "OP" ships/powers ? Doffs ?
.
gozer left a long time ago, no word from the "new"pvp guy since. just that theres new tech and its being worked on. -_-
yes, power creep. where every NEW item added to the game is more powerful then the last.
the vesta is the perfect example. it has the best sci officer layout one could ask for, it has a nice turn rate, good shields and a hanger bay. -edit- i almost forgot that not only can it equip cannons, it comes with aux powered duel heavy cannons with accx2! i mean... good god!
what could they possibly release as a science vessel that would make you want to give up the vesta? why only something more powerful.
ya they pretty much cant top the vesta sci ship wise, its the best in every way already, and can do 2 things no other sci ship can
im just waiting for a fed ship to have the turn of the jem, the shields of a time,the hull of an oddy, and count as "sci", and can equip cannons and have 2 flight bays.
Comments
uhh.... im totally against splitting the que....
for all the reason i listed. if you dont understand that then theres really nothing else to get across.
pvp is DIFFERENT from pve, it REQUIRES teamwork, it REQUIRES you to play differently.
why should people who are prepaired for that, suffer?
Do you even Science Bro?
How such situation will be different from separating queues - outside of the fact that separate queues may give you someone to play against (people who will be willing to try PvP at organized level) and the current status quo - wont?
As virusdancer said - STO is primarly solo game. You can pug and solo all the content. You can form teams if you want, but you can go solo with relative ease through all of it. PvP is the only exception to this. Only one. It was different earlier, but this earlier wont come back. So we need to work with what we have - and this means people who play the game solo. And want to play the PvP this way.
Log in, spent an hour or two at pew pew, log out. Don't care about finding friends (they have ones waiting with ball and bear at fresh air), teaming, training and what else.
Gods, whats so hard with understanding that no all people are die hard PvPers who spent time on forums discussing build, chat in OPvP, train, organize. Most is not like this, most wants some fun. Some fun and they wont get it in current form of PvP queues. They could season or two ago. Not now.
all i can say about those people are, then i guess this pvp isnt for them the way its intended to be.
what about all the pvp'rs that are FORCED to play pve to get ANYTHING of use in pvp? if you make pvp like this, then id like pve to be like how pvp is currently. REQUIRING a team to win.
Do you even Science Bro?
Amen to that. If the game required teamwork in PvE, maybe there would be less fail players trying to shape PvP to what they want it to be instead of learning to play it the way it is intended.
edit: I have maintained for a while that the lack of challenging PvE content is the main cause for players failing when they try PvP.
While I don't disagree as a whole (I kinda hate the Bug ship & carrier spam as well) -- here's another way to look at things :
A while back , someone told a story about a PVP game shard that had a guild that instead of fighting/defeating it's "competition" , they simply absorbed them and declared victory .
The next day , they found PVP to be ... lacking because simply put , as there was nobody interesting left to fight .
How is this relevant to STO ?
STO seems to be suffering from the V2.0 of this issue .
Several guilds have absorbed all the best players ... -- and instead of creating an inter-guild turnaments and other fun stuff to challange each other , these multiple "super-guilds" languish about , QQ-ing that there is no one interesting to fight anymore .
Well guess what Bubba ?
You -- the way you're set up , the way you expect the solutions to be given to you + Cryptic's inability to separate the skill/equipment trees from PVE -- you both are two sides of the same coin .
'Cause right now , with Cryptic's "rush-job" leveling from Zero to Hero in a week -- right now , you , with your finely tuned & Doffed ships , are meeting these "one week Admirals" in PVP -- and it does not matter if you meet them as Pugs or Premades at this point .
The point is , no matter what , you will still stomp them badly and drive them away ... , even those few that did give PVP a chance .
So ... -- Cryptic can either bring out the steam roller and flatten everything and start from scratch and give EVERYONE equal footing (this would include demolishing some of your finely tuned machines unfortunetly) , or it will continue to be stomp-ville , in either Minor or Major .
In short , unless PVP get's it's own dedicated "season" and get's rebuilt ... .
well they said theres new "tech" and season 9 will be for pvp....
you cant put everyone on equal footing either because of the power creep theyve introduced needlessly.
Do you even Science Bro?
But there is PvE that requires teamwork.
I think that's something that's being glossed over here.
They're not asking for FFA PvP - they're asking for PUG vs. PUG. It's still team vs. team. It's like when they throw together a PUG for a STF.
It kind of reminds me of the Arena Heroes vs. Battleground Heroes "discussions" over in WoW. I thought Arena was boring. The odds heavily favored that you were going to face whatever FotW comp was popular - you were almost always facing the same thing. You might as well be playing a FPS. That's what some folks wanted.
Me? I craved the randomness of the PUG battles in a Battleground. Much like there's the increased challenge in PvP compared to PvE because of it not being scripted, when you don't know who's going to be on your team nor who's going to be on the other team - it presents a greater challenge. Making do with what you've got against them making do with what they've got - pulling out that victory - awesome sauce.
PUG vs. PUG is still going to require teamwork. If a PUG runs around doing their own thing against a PUG working together - the PUG that works together is going to win.
The teamwork argument is a non-argument, because it doesn't exclude PUG vs. PUG. It's still going to require teamwork... no different than when they're running a STF.
Queue times.
Queue times for playing with friends.
Those two things tend to be the only valid arguments...and depending on the situation, they tend to be very valid arguments. STO's such a case where they look to be a very valid argument given the way things are now.
Which gets back into trying to make PvP more inviting - looking at trying to get PUGvPUG queues popping and looking at the folks that will move on from PUGvPUG to Team matches - having those queues popping as well. It's an investment in the PvP that may not have an instant payoff, but it would be better for the game down the road...
Play low level PvP (ok, stay in low level Ker'rat). It's so refreshing to play with and against players that have free ships and one, rather meaningless variation of them, no consoles, no sets and actually no DOFFs. And you have more or less the same. Either you win or loose, but your graphic card does not freeze from the spam throwed by both sides and if you loose you know, that you lost because other side was better and had better skills, not because they had more time to get all the rep, DOFFs, sets and other stuff.
If Cryptic could only allow to stay on one level without leveling I would probably return to the game (leveling new toon to cmdr each few weeks is not fun). Or if there was some sort of "no cheese, no DOFFs, no sets" PvP area for lvl 50 (but this wont happen - money must flow, after all).
You've got a queue that doesn't pop that frequently to begin with...
You split that into PUGs 'n Premades.
You've got two queues that do not pop that frequently now.
You split them into PUGs (w/ stuff), PUGs (w/o stuff), Premades (w/ stuff), Premades (w/o stuff)...
...and you're looking at four queues that may or may not ever pop.
Need a healthy population or the guarantee of a healthy population to start doing things like that. It's a gamble - Cryptic might not only fail to see additional revenue from the endeavor, they might even lose revenue from the folks that walk away.
We left because there are Facerollers, that still whine about the power of dps, when healing is so far and above damage that it's pathetic.
We left because despite our efforts to teach, and help those in need. They continued to cry whine, and hate.
And then the game went f2p. We came back hoping to find new players to teach, train and help. we came back hoping that maybe the devs had learned from their mistakes.
And we were disappointed, and finally we left again.
And now good games have come out and we have stayed gone. Only using the game as a chat box and to keep pace on the forums. And we find the Facerollers have taken more of the forum over, because so few of us even bothered to check back here.
I logged in once a few weeks ago during Prime Time, for the pvp ques. It took 30 minutes for FvF to pop with Zero in the FvK que. That pop then proceeded to fail and it was another 15 minutes of waiting between failed que pops before I managed to get in the game. When I got into the game, my team mates did 1/10th the damage I did combined and I shot the enemy team to pieces so hard, that it was a 15 to 5 victory. Because they sucked so hard.
I then switched to my healer. And even factoring in my own team mates sheer incomptence, and not even being able to balance their own shields or even bother with TT. I made the match a 15 and 0 affair.
And then I quit bothering to que at all.
Because the community at this point, is as incompetent as the developers, and both still have zero interest in getting better.
For the record, alot of the remaining pvp guilds... small as they were (think 5 guys total), also merged together. Because of the Azn Grinder known as the starbases. Which further killed the ques. STO is dying. Just let it die already please guys.
but for the NEW players that join that are being churned out of pvp due to getting stomped on by players like you MAI.They can learn but not instantly they must learn over time in a more fair que.
you want to know why pvp fails to grow because you churn people away faster then they are joining the game even.This is why pvp will become an extinct part of this game those that love the pvp don't have the will to compromise to let it flourish.
Those are the same players that I'd probably One Pass in an Eng Cruiser. What, should they make a 'veteran only1111" que too?
No one tries pvp in this game. By and large, the Faceroll community is just that. They're happy to go to drozana and ERP rather than do something that engages their competitive and strategic thinking centers of the brain.
For that matter no one is really new to this game either. This game quit gaining players back in season 2 and has since lost more than they gained. Hence the more and more blatant, Cash Grabs cryptic keeps trying to desperately stay afloat.
the bugs are bigger and more hilarious then ever though. and thanks to star bases and rep system, having more then about 4 characters simply isn't feasible.
See that's the difference. I don't enjoy TRIBBLE being served up wrapped in silver paper being presented to me as a gift. I don't enjoy that the game more and more is just becoming a cheap imitation Azn Grinder, and Open Your Wallet To Win experience.
For me that's the hallmark of Trash.
That good group of guys you mention is hardly on. And they are hardly enough of them to offset the just out right fail levels of the majority of the population. It's boring to know that in 90 percent of the matches I que for, I'm not just going to win. But I'm going to utterly Dominate. So much of my gaming skill atrophied because of staying in STO the last year and a half. I'm so far behind in several other games now that I'm still struggling in some titles that I love dearly.
STO could have been great, it could have been beyond the pale amazing. And then cryptic took a dump on it, and wrapped it in silver paper, with a keylock on it, and then tried to sell us all keys for money. And then as if that were not bad enough, then they puked out the star base system, which killed any chance of new guilds coming out to challenge the big dogs, or even just high end players.
thankfully the toys from lock boxes have yet to make me want them, with the exception of the temperal console, and thats just lobi. so there hasnt been anything that makes me trully sour on it yet, other then on principle. but thats free to play for you. grind, or pay more then ever.
Well I won't disagree with you I love premade pvp...
My issue has always been the idea of a que to begin with... this game needs more open world objective based pvp... but that will never happen and we all know it.
Splitting the que won't work, the population doesn't exist.. I do understand the frustration of some of the new players though... I have came late to other games and understand how the end game pvp beat down can be painful.
Having said that in MOST other mmos there is enough pvp in the lower levels to allow new players to level a toon doing lots of pvp and learning the game... and if they are still not ready at end game... they can roll an alt and level that and by the time they get 2 toons up chances are they can hold there own.
Cryptic has failed pvp in this game by destroying low level pvp.
I would think instead of wasting resources on splitting ques... We should be asking Cryptic to promote PvP in STO... by making LOW level pvp a great leveling option.
What if ALL the fleet / Rep bonus times that mean NOTHING to low level players... rewarded Massive Bonus PvP Skill Points. I know they will be claim AFK players will auto level and that would be terrible... but lets be frank they already do that with the PvE reward hour. Give people a reason to pvp in the lower tiers.... heck take the idea of some of the Klingon Ship killer / Good Day to die missions ect... and create LOW level only PvP wrapper missions... Kill 25 Player ships Boom 5000 Skill points... Kill 100 Player ships Boom 10,000 skill points and a reward 1hr skill point booster.
Give those new players ques safe from the mean end game players with 3 years of gear. (I only slighly joke... really guys we all know gear isn't super important, however lets be honest we all have the best mostly... and 3 years of XP in how to use it)....
Get those new players PvPing before they hit the ques with the big fish.
Doing something like this would be very little work for the Cryptic guys... just adding bonuses to the stuff already in rotation... + perhaps a few wrapper missions.... we all agree that low level pvp was some of the funnest PvP we remember doing... I don't think any new players that get a taste of it early without the lockbox ships and all the terrible end game junk will find it terrible. (granted those stupid +1 ships with consoles are an issue now... compared to when most of us low level pvped... still I bet it would drive some pvp population upward)
There is the supposed new tech and there's what you can do with it .
Cryptic/Gozer have been utterly silent (afaik) as to what this new tech supposedly does .
All I know was that a test map was in progress that had the division between kdf/fed erased and they all fought together as two teams .
That's not much info (to make judgement upon) , but to me it does not address neither the Death Machines VS One Week Admirals issue , nor the constant (unintentional) TRIBBLE about w/pvp powers when something in PVE gets introduced/altered .
Not sure what you mean by "power creep" . "OP" ships/powers ? Doffs ?
I have to agree that low level PVP is the best .
Few powers VS few powers -- instead of the over bloated power extravaganza that only multiple keybinds can make use of at this point -- I laugh when I think what else can they throw in this bloated soup at the next Tier .
When a low level player only has to remember :
This Heals Me ,
This Heals My Shields ,
This Makes Me Go Faster ,
This Gives Me a Little Extra Pew-Pew,
When the new player has to remember only 4 things -- he will concentrate more on the battle , and likely give you a better fight .
He does not have to deal with 4 offensive powers being keybind and unleashed as one ('cause he prolly can't keybind and at best uses them one by one) and so on and so forth .
gozer left a long time ago, no word from the "new"pvp guy since. just that theres new tech and its being worked on. -_-
yes, power creep. where every NEW item added to the game is more powerful then the last.
the vesta is the perfect example. it has the best sci officer layout one could ask for, it has a nice turn rate, good shields and a hanger bay. -edit- i almost forgot that not only can it equip cannons, it comes with aux powered duel heavy cannons with accx2! i mean... good god!
what could they possibly release as a science vessel that would make you want to give up the vesta? why only something more powerful.
Do you even Science Bro?
ya they pretty much cant top the vesta sci ship wise, its the best in every way already, and can do 2 things no other sci ship can
im just waiting for a fed ship to have the turn of the jem, the shields of a time,the hull of an oddy, and count as "sci", and can equip cannons and have 2 flight bays.
you know itll happen....
super mega carrier!
-_-
Do you even Science Bro?