simple solution is this to just add in the que if it gets used good if not well that just shows the pvp community has already driven out competition.
i dont see the harm in it.might even get some people who left pvp back into it that left because of well known premades (im looking at you pandas with all the love in Gre'Thor)
no it wont remove premades from this que but it will make them more unlikely and make a good place for newer players to try and learn pvp a bit
adding a pug only que will not fix anything.
it will not encourage team work,
it will not encourage cooperation
it will only break apart people who enjoy playing together either as pugmades or premades.
didn't say it would fix teamwork or any of that all i said was it would make premades like pandas tsi trh etc unlikely in this que they want cheap easy kills nothing more their opinions on balance may be valid(and i use this with caution).but on this subject they are rather biased
it will only break apart people who enjoy playing together either as pugmades or premades.
It wouldn't do anything to break apart people who enjoy playing as pugmades because the new que will be all pugs all the time.
It wouldn't do anything to break apart people who enjoy playing as premades because the old que will still exist and the premades can join and play with other premades or solo players who choose to pug.
The ONLY thing it will do is disapoint premades that prefer to play against PUGs full of new players who have no where else to go to PVP.
I also expect that the new que would be full of players who aren't anywhere near PVP at the moment now anyhow such as myself.I thoroughly enjoy PVE so it really is no skin off my back either way, but this is a way I believe you could many new players interested in PVP.
It is a known fact that PVP is suffering greatly with players leaving PVP in droves and driving it to near extinction. I'm proposing a real and serious change because what is going on now clearly is not working no matter how badly you want to make sure your premade has someone to faceroll.
didn't say it would fix teamwork or any of that all i said was it would make premades like pandas tsi trh etc unlikely in this que they want cheap easy kills nothing more their opinions on balance may be valid(and i use this with caution).but on this subject they are rather biased
Tsi is not out to hunt pugs because we enjoy it. We enjoy premade matches when people will even accept it. But there are not enough premades out there to make this happen.
If you make it either u have a 5 man team or you hve to play randomly it leaves out the wide gap of players that only have 1-2 buds they pvp with (which in no way is a premade) and a lot of the time tsi will usually only have 2-4 people on the team from the fleet and be called a premade when that isn't the case.
All it takes is 1-2 tsi/-insert good pvp fleet name here- in a match to completely change the battle to a one sides slaughter.
It wouldn't do anything to break apart people who enjoy playing as pugmades because the new que will be all pugs all the time.
It wouldn't do anything to break apart people who enjoy playing as premades because the old que will still exist and the premades can join and play with other premades or solo players who choose to pug.
The ONLY thing it will do is disapoint premades that prefer to play against PUGs full of new players who have no where else to go to PVP.
I also expect that the new que would be full of players who aren't anywhere near PVP at the moment now anyhow such as myself.I thoroughly enjoy PVE so it really is no skin off my back either way, but this is a way I believe you could many new players interested in PVP.
It is a known fact that PVP is suffering greatly with players leaving PVP in droves and driving it to near extinction. I'm proposing a real and serious change because what is going on now clearly is not working no matter how badly you want to make sure your premade has someone to faceroll.
Playing as a pug and a pugmade are 2 different things.
So again, either the group of friends play together or hope they randomly get ques together? That's not right.
I can't speak for other fleets but tsi has a hard time even finding other premades to fight against. What are we suppose to do? Not play?
I know the pvp situation is dire, no thanks in small part to cryptics lack of interest in it, but alienating the pvp ques like that with such a small community will I feel be a bad thing. A lot of people who pvp now only do it because its easy and fast to get dil. As I pointed out above, a separate que system ruins the chance for people to work together and to play with their friends, because playing with your friends is no where near the same as playing in a premade.
There is no easy solution to this. But separating the que system is not the right answer at this time.
Sounds cool. Except premades dont want to fight other premades. Otherwise this wouldnt be an issue. I see premades all the time in the queues even when other premades are in OPVP soliciting for a private match. No one bites. So yes I agree with the OP. Singles only matches without premade teams
I can't speak for any other fleet premade, but ToS Veterens relish going up against highly skilled premades.
I am about as anti-bully as they come. I don't enjoy kicking dirt into people's faces ever! When our premade is put up against a pug, we don't get any thrill out of it. We don't need to bring our A game. It's not good practice.
The only way to become exceptional in premade pvp is by fighting exceptional premades and learning from every defeat.
So again, either the group of friends play together or hope they randomly get ques together? That's not right.
Nowhere have I, or anyone else for that matter, suggested that the current que go away. There, anyone (whether it be friends, or fleet mates or whoever you so desire) could group and play against other groups of players or solo players that choose to join.
I'm simply suggesting a second choice for players that could potentially fill the PVP ques up again.
Why is it you feel players should be *forced* to join a que where premades play? Because premades have the "right" to have pugs to play against, even if the odds are ridiculously in their favor?
it will only break apart people who enjoy playing together either as pugmades or premades.
But that's not what a non-teamed PVP queue for anyway. It's a stepping stone towards getting non-PVP'ers into a PVP area where they can hone their individual combat skills before they enter team-play.
The alternative is to leave things as they are now... and we all know how that's turning out already. Just look at the queues and tell me that things are fine, and I'll sell you some beach front property in Death Valley.
But that's not what a non-teamed PVP queue for anyway. It's a stepping stone towards getting non-PVP'ers into a PVP area where they can hone their individual combat skills before they enter team-play.
The alternative is to leave things as they are now... and we all know how that's turning out already. Just look at the queues and tell me that things are fine, and I'll sell you some beach front property in Death Valley.
Exactly. 5 players randomly placed together have the same desire to win if it is against another 5 random players or a premade. The need for teamwork and cooperation exists in both situations. There really is not argument for continuing with the way things are other than players in premades who simply enjoy playing against pugs.
Playing as a pug and a pugmade are 2 different things.
So again, either the group of friends play together or hope they randomly get ques together? That's not right.
I can't speak for other fleets but tsi has a hard time even finding other premades to fight against. What are we suppose to do? Not play?
I know the pvp situation is dire, no thanks in small part to cryptics lack of interest in it, but alienating the pvp ques like that with such a small community will I feel be a bad thing. A lot of people who pvp now only do it because its easy and fast to get dil. As I pointed out above, a separate que system ruins the chance for people to work together and to play with their friends, because playing with your friends is no where near the same as playing in a premade.
It's already becoming painfully obvious that the premade crowd is the minority. Cryptic has already designed STO PVP to be team oriented, and look at the result: barely anyone PVP's anymore. We can choose to leave things as is and watch PVP completely die off, or Crpytic can introduce a non-teamed queue and see what happens. The worst possible outcome is that players get to choose which arena they want, and this is a win-win for all players.
There is no easy solution to this. But separating the que system is not the right answer at this time.
PVP is barely on life-support. Should we continue waiting to see what happens next?
There are 2 possible solutions:
1) Do nothing and leave things as is. However, we already see where this is leading
2) Make the non-teamed PVP queue and see what happens.
Which do you think is the safer option?
Hint: Trying to force players into teaming isn't working now. Going through the same motions and expecting a different result is nothing short of lunacy.
We can choose to leave things as is and watch PVP completely die off, or Crpytic can introduce a non-teamed queue and see what happens. The worst possible outcome is that players get to choose which arena they want, and this is a win-win for all players.
The worst possible outcome is that it drives away even the few remaining players who like playing together with their friends (if the team queue is as empty as KvK usually is and they thus get no matches anymore) and at the same time fails to bring in new players for the pug queue.
The idea that giving people more choices in terms of different queues will improve the situation for everyone is naive. Just look at what FvF queues (more choices!) did to FvK.
The worst possible outcome is that it drives away even the few remaining players who like playing together with their friends (if the team queue is as empty as KvK usually is and they thus get no matches anymore) and at the same time fails to bring in new players for the pug queue.
The idea that giving people more choices in terms of different queues will improve the situation for everyone is naive. Just look at what FvF queues (more choices!) did to FvK.
Fine, let's leave things alone to insure that PVP does die, because that's the course it's headed now with its present mandatory team play set-up.
No amount of life-support will save an unpopular format.
The worst possible outcome is that it drives away even the few remaining players who like playing together with their friends (if the team queue is as empty as KvK usually is and they thus get no matches anymore) and at the same time fails to bring in new players for the pug queue.
The idea that giving people more choices in terms of different queues will improve the situation for everyone is naive. Just look at what FvF queues (more choices!) did to FvK.
If there aren't enough people playing as a team to get some games going, then really PVP won't have lost much because by your own argument there aren't even enough team players to get a 4 v 4 match going. At the risk of losing 7 players from the PVP que, we should try to do something to breathe life back into PVP in a game with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of players.
If there aren't enough people playing as a team to get some games going, then really PVP won't have lost much because by your own argument there aren't even enough team players to get a 4 v 4 match going. At the risk of losing 7 players from the PVP que, we should try to do something to breathe life back into PVP in a game with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of players.
Are you really saying that "7 players" are the reason why players are so afraid to queue up for PVP? With "thousands upon thousands upon thousands" just waiting to queue up as pugs?
If these thousands had any interest in pug pvp, they would easily drown out the few teamed groups and make encountering a (semi)premade a rare occurence.
Are you really saying that "7 players" are the reason why players are so afraid to queue up for PVP? With "thousands upon thousands upon thousands" just waiting to queue up as pugs?
If these thousands had any interest in pug pvp, they would easily drown out the few teamed groups and make encountering a (semi)premade a rare occurence.
So what are you saying then? There are plenty of these premade players? If so then they shouldn't have any trouble at all still getting games going if there were a PUG que. What is the problem in providing people the option then?
So what are you saying then? There are plenty of these premade players? If so then they shouldn't have any trouble at all still getting games going if there were a PUG que. What is the problem in providing people the option then?
I'm absolutely not saying that there are many premade players. There are just a handful of them. It's already nigh impossible these days for a good premade group to get a premade vs premade match going.
I'm saying that STO's pvp is a niche and that introducing a pug queue will drive the few remaining team-based players out of the game while simultaneously failing to attract any significant number of new players.
I'm absolutely not saying that there are many premade players. There are just a handful of them. It's already nigh impossible these days for a good premade group to get a premade vs premade match going.
I'm saying that STO's pvp is a niche and that introducing a pug queue will drive the few remaining team-based players out of the game while simultaneously failing to attract any significant number of new players.
It sounds like you are in favor of keeping the mandatory team queues in place because it caters to the premade niche community. What about also catering to the rest of STO who don't favor the current team-only format? Sorry for saying this, but shoe-horning the rest of the PVP community for the benefit of a niche player group is nothing short of self-serving.
All I want is a choice between a team queue and a non-team queue. I've already abandoned the team-only format, but I gladly return to PVP if Cryptic gives me the choice that I want. Until then, I'll continue to watch the PVP queues and community slowly decay into a distant memory, and based on current info, that process is accelerating.
I'm absolutely not saying that there are many premade players. There are just a handful of them. It's already nigh impossible these days for a good premade group to get a premade vs premade match going.
I'm saying that STO's pvp is a niche and that introducing a pug queue will drive the few remaining team-based players out of the game while simultaneously failing to attract any significant number of new players.
Right, I agree with you. So my point, and my "7" comment is that compared to the total player base, the amount of people still participating in PVP is so minute that it is worth taking some risks to try and reinvigorate PVP.
Your main concern is that this, as you admit "handful" of players will be driven off by some changes to the que is just rather inconsequential at this point. The current system is dying as demonstrated by the fact you pointed out that it is NIGH IMPOSSIBLE for a premade group to find even one other premade group to play against.
So why would you advocate simply staying on the course of things as they are now if this is the situation we find ourselves in? You don't want the system changed just to benefit a very small group of premade players? (who honestly shouldn't want to play pugs anyhow if they are truly serious players) Admittedly I can't know for sure a "mercenary" que will draw in PVE players but it certainly stands a better shot than feeding them up as cannon fodder for the premades sitting around waiting to get a game going because they are so few they can't even put together two premade teams of four players...
If there so few premade players and they are so irrelevant to STO's pvp community that it is okay to discard them, then why aren't pugs flooding the queues and drowning out the premades?
If we are very very generous, I'd put the maximum number of teamed and queued premade players online in the game at the same time at 15-20 (usually it's probably less than 10). And this includes "lesser" premades that can be beaten by somewhat capable pugs.
If there was such a big interest in pug pvp, say 200+ players queued/playing at the same time - the pug players would constitute >90% of the queued pvp players. This means that on average only every 10th match would be against a premade, and only every 20th or even 40th against a premade group that can't be scratched by a pug.
If there so few premade players and they are so irrelevant to STO's pvp community that it is okay to discard them, then why aren't pugs flooding the queues and drowning out the premades?
If we are very very generous, I'd put the maximum number of teamed and queued premade players online in the game at the same time at 15-20 (usually it's probably less than 10). And this includes "lesser" premades that can be beaten by somewhat capable pugs.
If there was such a big interest in pug pvp, say 200+ players queued/playing at the same time - the pug players would constitute >90% of the queued pvp players. This means that on average only every 10th match would be against a premade, and only every 20th or even 40th against a premade group that can't be scratched by a pug.
We really don't know what the interest is in pug pvp at the moment because it dosn't exist. I'm proposing a venue where pure pug pvp could exist, but right now all you have is very sparsely populated PVP ques where those 10-20 premade players as you describe constitute half of the players engaging in PVP, meaning that nearly every match will pop because one of the groups qued. Now I'm aware that pug v pug does occur, but certainly not 9 out of 10 matches or anywhere close to that. You are projecting my stated goal of a pug que on the current state of affairs which is just apples and oranges.
We really don't know what the interest is in pug pvp at the moment because it dosn't exist. I'm proposing a venue where pure pug pvp could exist, but right now all you have is very sparsely populated PVP ques where those 10-20 premade players as you describe constitute half of the players engaging in PVP, meaning that nearly every match will pop because one of the groups qued. Now I'm aware that pug v pug does occur, but certainly not 9 out of 10 matches or anywhere close to that. You are projecting my stated goal of a pug que on the current state of affairs which is just apples and oranges.
Okay, I'll give it a go. Premades are not the problem, something else is keeping prospective players out of PvP. I personally blame the unbalanced toys Cryptic keeps dropping into the game in console form, and the lack of well-defined roles that these toys have caused. If the game were balanced well for PvP, you would see tons of players queueing up, making it far less likely to see the same team over and over (the way is used to be, before the Great Content Draught caused a mass exodus from this game). It would probably also create incentive for more teams to be formed, making it easier for premades to find matches against other premades.
You guys are talking about a symptom of the problem, not the disease itself.
Why do you think we ended up with the situaton we have now?
Is it because more and more premade groups formed and drove out the pugs? Or is it because the pugs lost interest in a part of the game that hasn't seen any improvements by the devs in over 2.5 years and now the only ones who are still playing are those who are here because they like playing together with their friends in a team?
Hint: There has not been an increase in the number of premade groups.
And yes, in the early days of this game meeting a premade in the queues was a rare occurence. We had this situation where enough pugs made the premades virtually disappear for the average player. It did not last.
Do we need smarter queues that attempt to match premade vs premade if two teams queue up? Queues that try to balance teams if possible instead of sending five escorts against five cruisers? Yes, of course.
But hoping for a miracle and sacrificing the few remaining players by segregating the queues is not the way to go.
I am a solo player .To be honest I don't play arena very much.
I play more C&H (1 arena/10 C&H i guess and the ratio is changing daily in the favor of C&H)
Lately when l meet a premade(4 or more ships from same fleet) in arena I ask the team what they want to do.We vote and if the team decides we should leave we all leave the map or if the teams decide to stay then we stay and try to make our best.
I think that if pug groups would leave arena as soon as they are put against a premade the number of premades will lower in time.
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Okay, I'll give it a go. Premades are not the problem, something else is keeping prospective players out of PvP. I personally blame the unbalanced toys Cryptic keeps dropping into the game in console form, and the lack of well-defined roles that these toys have caused. If the game were balanced well for PvP, you would see tons of players queueing up, making it far less likely to see the same team over and over (the way is used to be, before the Great Content Draught caused a mass exodus from this game). It would probably also create incentive for more teams to be formed, making it easier for premades to find matches against other premades.
You guys are talking about a symptom of the problem, not the disease itself.
Maybe so. This is at least an alternate and believable reason for the decline in PVP. The reality is that these unbalanced toys aren't going away though - that is the nature of a game which makes money primarily through micro-transactions. Ironically, as I stated a while back, one way to mitigate these imba toys is through random pug teams which ensure that generally speaking you will have the player with the toys on your team as often as against you, whereas in the current system all the players with the toys can team up and ensure you only ever see them staring down the barrel of their guns.
I am a solo player .To be honest I don't play arena very much.
I play more C&H (1 arena/10 C&H i guess and the ratio is changing daily in the favor of C&H)
Lately when l meet a premade(4 or more ships from same fleet) in arena I ask the team what they want to do.We vote and if the team decides we should leave we all leave the map or if the teams decide to stay then we stay and try to make our best.
I think that if pug groups would leave arena as soon as they are put against a premade the number of premades will lower in time.
that is the single most wrong thing i have ever heard.
the pvp in this game is a TEAM activity.
why should people who team up and play be "punished" by those that dont when they could just as easily team up themselves
Because this is Wrath of Khan and we are all Spocks sacrificing for the good of many (few in this case)?
Anyone can choose if they want to play against someone else. And if they decide not to - to leave. It's not their fault, that the pre/PUGmades are ruining the fun for the true PUGers.
Team game? Yeah. But team is not defined as group of friends. You can have a team created from PUGers. So all this "team up, this is MMO, find a guild.fleet/friends" is just desperate try to protect the status quo the premades are used too - easy kills in form of PUGers.
As for the separate queues. Do it. Even if it fails and drives away the premade players - who cares? PvP is already as good as dead. Hell - if it drives away old players and in their place brings half the number of new ones, but those newbs will find PvP fun and be willing to invite more players to try - do it. It will be worth it. It will be making the difference between living PvP and dead one.
Okay, I'll give it a go. Premades are not the problem, something else is keeping prospective players out of PvP. I personally blame the unbalanced toys Cryptic keeps dropping into the game in console form, and the lack of well-defined roles that these toys have caused. If the game were balanced well for PvP, you would see tons of players queueing up, making it far less likely to see the same team over and over (the way is used to be, before the Great Content Draught caused a mass exodus from this game). It would probably also create incentive for more teams to be formed, making it easier for premades to find matches against other premades.
You guys are talking about a symptom of the problem, not the disease itself.
Premades are not the problem -- it's Premades vs. PUG's that cause issues. Premades usually enjoy a decisive advantage unless the PUG's are seasoned and well geared PVP'ers themselves, and this rarely ever happened. In the last few months of active PVP'ing, everytime I ran into a premade on the opposite team, they did nothing but spawn-farm PUG players until those players left, some permanently. With a small but dedicated faction of the PVP community driving out the casual majority, they really are functioning as an invasive species attacking a player base that is not equipped to handle them. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't know what else I can accurately compare premades to.
The current mandatory team-only format has already failed. It's well past artificial life support. Until Premades and individual players are allowed to compete in their own respective arenas instead of being shoe-horned into the same PVP space, STO PVP will continue on only to serve its few remaining dedicated fans, and that crowd continues to thin as other more flexible games hit the market.
Why do you think we ended up with the situaton we have now?
Is it because more and more premade groups formed and drove out the pugs? Or is it because the pugs lost interest in a part of the game that hasn't seen any improvements by the devs in over 2.5 years and now the only ones who are still playing are those who are here because they like playing together with their friends in a team?
Hint: There has not been an increase in the number of premade groups.
Here's another consideration: PUG players will only tolerate so much spawn-farming before they throw their arms up in the air and concluding "this format blows, I'm outa here!"
Also, your hint sounds like pure conjecture.
EDIT: So how can Cryptic improve the current PVP environment? Easy: Add the proposed non-teamed mercenary queue!
And yes, in the early days of this game meeting a premade in the queues was a rare occurence. We had this situation where enough pugs made the premades virtually disappear for the average player. It did not last.
That's because the premades did drive out the PUG's. I literally watched the PVP PUG players evaporate from the public queues as premades started farming them without end. The queues narrowed to virtually no PUG activity.
Do we need smarter queues that attempt to match premade vs premade if two teams queue up? Queues that try to balance teams if possible instead of sending five escorts against five cruisers? Yes, of course.
But hoping for a miracle and sacrificing the few remaining players by segregating the queues is not the way to go.
The above just won't happen -- there are far too many ships, players, and build permutations to even code any effective "auto-balancing." Ultimately team players have to be given their own queue, away from those who don't want premades in the same arena. There is nothing stopping a single PUG player from joining a Team queue either, so those PUG's interested in advancing towards team play can start joining the team queue instead of the PUG queue.
Either way, the STO player majority has spoken loud and clear, and the current PVP format has to change or follow the Betamax and Dodo into oblivion.
Comments
adding a pug only que will not fix anything.
it will not encourage team work,
it will not encourage cooperation
it will only break apart people who enjoy playing together either as pugmades or premades.
Do you even Science Bro?
It wouldn't do anything to break apart people who enjoy playing as pugmades because the new que will be all pugs all the time.
It wouldn't do anything to break apart people who enjoy playing as premades because the old que will still exist and the premades can join and play with other premades or solo players who choose to pug.
The ONLY thing it will do is disapoint premades that prefer to play against PUGs full of new players who have no where else to go to PVP.
I also expect that the new que would be full of players who aren't anywhere near PVP at the moment now anyhow such as myself.I thoroughly enjoy PVE so it really is no skin off my back either way, but this is a way I believe you could many new players interested in PVP.
It is a known fact that PVP is suffering greatly with players leaving PVP in droves and driving it to near extinction. I'm proposing a real and serious change because what is going on now clearly is not working no matter how badly you want to make sure your premade has someone to faceroll.
Tsi is not out to hunt pugs because we enjoy it. We enjoy premade matches when people will even accept it. But there are not enough premades out there to make this happen.
If you make it either u have a 5 man team or you hve to play randomly it leaves out the wide gap of players that only have 1-2 buds they pvp with (which in no way is a premade) and a lot of the time tsi will usually only have 2-4 people on the team from the fleet and be called a premade when that isn't the case.
All it takes is 1-2 tsi/-insert good pvp fleet name here- in a match to completely change the battle to a one sides slaughter.
Do you even Science Bro?
Playing as a pug and a pugmade are 2 different things.
So again, either the group of friends play together or hope they randomly get ques together? That's not right.
I can't speak for other fleets but tsi has a hard time even finding other premades to fight against. What are we suppose to do? Not play?
I know the pvp situation is dire, no thanks in small part to cryptics lack of interest in it, but alienating the pvp ques like that with such a small community will I feel be a bad thing. A lot of people who pvp now only do it because its easy and fast to get dil. As I pointed out above, a separate que system ruins the chance for people to work together and to play with their friends, because playing with your friends is no where near the same as playing in a premade.
There is no easy solution to this. But separating the que system is not the right answer at this time.
Do you even Science Bro?
I can't speak for any other fleet premade, but ToS Veterens relish going up against highly skilled premades.
I am about as anti-bully as they come. I don't enjoy kicking dirt into people's faces ever! When our premade is put up against a pug, we don't get any thrill out of it. We don't need to bring our A game. It's not good practice.
The only way to become exceptional in premade pvp is by fighting exceptional premades and learning from every defeat.
Nowhere have I, or anyone else for that matter, suggested that the current que go away. There, anyone (whether it be friends, or fleet mates or whoever you so desire) could group and play against other groups of players or solo players that choose to join.
I'm simply suggesting a second choice for players that could potentially fill the PVP ques up again.
Why is it you feel players should be *forced* to join a que where premades play? Because premades have the "right" to have pugs to play against, even if the odds are ridiculously in their favor?
But that's not what a non-teamed PVP queue for anyway. It's a stepping stone towards getting non-PVP'ers into a PVP area where they can hone their individual combat skills before they enter team-play.
The alternative is to leave things as they are now... and we all know how that's turning out already. Just look at the queues and tell me that things are fine, and I'll sell you some beach front property in Death Valley.
Exactly. 5 players randomly placed together have the same desire to win if it is against another 5 random players or a premade. The need for teamwork and cooperation exists in both situations. There really is not argument for continuing with the way things are other than players in premades who simply enjoy playing against pugs.
It's already becoming painfully obvious that the premade crowd is the minority. Cryptic has already designed STO PVP to be team oriented, and look at the result: barely anyone PVP's anymore. We can choose to leave things as is and watch PVP completely die off, or Crpytic can introduce a non-teamed queue and see what happens. The worst possible outcome is that players get to choose which arena they want, and this is a win-win for all players.
PVP is barely on life-support. Should we continue waiting to see what happens next?
There are 2 possible solutions:
1) Do nothing and leave things as is. However, we already see where this is leading
2) Make the non-teamed PVP queue and see what happens.
Which do you think is the safer option?
Hint: Trying to force players into teaming isn't working now. Going through the same motions and expecting a different result is nothing short of lunacy.
The idea that giving people more choices in terms of different queues will improve the situation for everyone is naive. Just look at what FvF queues (more choices!) did to FvK.
Fine, let's leave things alone to insure that PVP does die, because that's the course it's headed now with its present mandatory team play set-up.
No amount of life-support will save an unpopular format.
If there aren't enough people playing as a team to get some games going, then really PVP won't have lost much because by your own argument there aren't even enough team players to get a 4 v 4 match going. At the risk of losing 7 players from the PVP que, we should try to do something to breathe life back into PVP in a game with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of players.
If these thousands had any interest in pug pvp, they would easily drown out the few teamed groups and make encountering a (semi)premade a rare occurence.
So what are you saying then? There are plenty of these premade players? If so then they shouldn't have any trouble at all still getting games going if there were a PUG que. What is the problem in providing people the option then?
I'm saying that STO's pvp is a niche and that introducing a pug queue will drive the few remaining team-based players out of the game while simultaneously failing to attract any significant number of new players.
It sounds like you are in favor of keeping the mandatory team queues in place because it caters to the premade niche community. What about also catering to the rest of STO who don't favor the current team-only format? Sorry for saying this, but shoe-horning the rest of the PVP community for the benefit of a niche player group is nothing short of self-serving.
All I want is a choice between a team queue and a non-team queue. I've already abandoned the team-only format, but I gladly return to PVP if Cryptic gives me the choice that I want. Until then, I'll continue to watch the PVP queues and community slowly decay into a distant memory, and based on current info, that process is accelerating.
Right, I agree with you. So my point, and my "7" comment is that compared to the total player base, the amount of people still participating in PVP is so minute that it is worth taking some risks to try and reinvigorate PVP.
Your main concern is that this, as you admit "handful" of players will be driven off by some changes to the que is just rather inconsequential at this point. The current system is dying as demonstrated by the fact you pointed out that it is NIGH IMPOSSIBLE for a premade group to find even one other premade group to play against.
So why would you advocate simply staying on the course of things as they are now if this is the situation we find ourselves in? You don't want the system changed just to benefit a very small group of premade players? (who honestly shouldn't want to play pugs anyhow if they are truly serious players) Admittedly I can't know for sure a "mercenary" que will draw in PVE players but it certainly stands a better shot than feeding them up as cannon fodder for the premades sitting around waiting to get a game going because they are so few they can't even put together two premade teams of four players...
If we are very very generous, I'd put the maximum number of teamed and queued premade players online in the game at the same time at 15-20 (usually it's probably less than 10). And this includes "lesser" premades that can be beaten by somewhat capable pugs.
If there was such a big interest in pug pvp, say 200+ players queued/playing at the same time - the pug players would constitute >90% of the queued pvp players. This means that on average only every 10th match would be against a premade, and only every 20th or even 40th against a premade group that can't be scratched by a pug.
We really don't know what the interest is in pug pvp at the moment because it dosn't exist. I'm proposing a venue where pure pug pvp could exist, but right now all you have is very sparsely populated PVP ques where those 10-20 premade players as you describe constitute half of the players engaging in PVP, meaning that nearly every match will pop because one of the groups qued. Now I'm aware that pug v pug does occur, but certainly not 9 out of 10 matches or anywhere close to that. You are projecting my stated goal of a pug que on the current state of affairs which is just apples and oranges.
Okay, I'll give it a go. Premades are not the problem, something else is keeping prospective players out of PvP. I personally blame the unbalanced toys Cryptic keeps dropping into the game in console form, and the lack of well-defined roles that these toys have caused. If the game were balanced well for PvP, you would see tons of players queueing up, making it far less likely to see the same team over and over (the way is used to be, before the Great Content Draught caused a mass exodus from this game). It would probably also create incentive for more teams to be formed, making it easier for premades to find matches against other premades.
You guys are talking about a symptom of the problem, not the disease itself.
Is it because more and more premade groups formed and drove out the pugs? Or is it because the pugs lost interest in a part of the game that hasn't seen any improvements by the devs in over 2.5 years and now the only ones who are still playing are those who are here because they like playing together with their friends in a team?
Hint: There has not been an increase in the number of premade groups.
And yes, in the early days of this game meeting a premade in the queues was a rare occurence. We had this situation where enough pugs made the premades virtually disappear for the average player. It did not last.
Do we need smarter queues that attempt to match premade vs premade if two teams queue up? Queues that try to balance teams if possible instead of sending five escorts against five cruisers? Yes, of course.
But hoping for a miracle and sacrificing the few remaining players by segregating the queues is not the way to go.
I play more C&H (1 arena/10 C&H i guess and the ratio is changing daily in the favor of C&H)
Lately when l meet a premade(4 or more ships from same fleet) in arena I ask the team what they want to do.We vote and if the team decides we should leave we all leave the map or if the teams decide to stay then we stay and try to make our best.
I think that if pug groups would leave arena as soon as they are put against a premade the number of premades will lower in time.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Maybe so. This is at least an alternate and believable reason for the decline in PVP. The reality is that these unbalanced toys aren't going away though - that is the nature of a game which makes money primarily through micro-transactions. Ironically, as I stated a while back, one way to mitigate these imba toys is through random pug teams which ensure that generally speaking you will have the player with the toys on your team as often as against you, whereas in the current system all the players with the toys can team up and ensure you only ever see them staring down the barrel of their guns.
that is the single most wrong thing i have ever heard.
the pvp in this game is a TEAM activity.
why should people who team up and play be "punished" by those that dont when they could just as easily team up themselves
Do you even Science Bro?
Anyone can choose if they want to play against someone else. And if they decide not to - to leave. It's not their fault, that the pre/PUGmades are ruining the fun for the true PUGers.
Team game? Yeah. But team is not defined as group of friends. You can have a team created from PUGers. So all this "team up, this is MMO, find a guild.fleet/friends" is just desperate try to protect the status quo the premades are used too - easy kills in form of PUGers.
As for the separate queues. Do it. Even if it fails and drives away the premade players - who cares? PvP is already as good as dead. Hell - if it drives away old players and in their place brings half the number of new ones, but those newbs will find PvP fun and be willing to invite more players to try - do it. It will be worth it. It will be making the difference between living PvP and dead one.
Premades are not the problem -- it's Premades vs. PUG's that cause issues. Premades usually enjoy a decisive advantage unless the PUG's are seasoned and well geared PVP'ers themselves, and this rarely ever happened. In the last few months of active PVP'ing, everytime I ran into a premade on the opposite team, they did nothing but spawn-farm PUG players until those players left, some permanently. With a small but dedicated faction of the PVP community driving out the casual majority, they really are functioning as an invasive species attacking a player base that is not equipped to handle them. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't know what else I can accurately compare premades to.
The current mandatory team-only format has already failed. It's well past artificial life support. Until Premades and individual players are allowed to compete in their own respective arenas instead of being shoe-horned into the same PVP space, STO PVP will continue on only to serve its few remaining dedicated fans, and that crowd continues to thin as other more flexible games hit the market.
Here's another consideration: PUG players will only tolerate so much spawn-farming before they throw their arms up in the air and concluding "this format blows, I'm outa here!"
Also, your hint sounds like pure conjecture.
EDIT: So how can Cryptic improve the current PVP environment? Easy: Add the proposed non-teamed mercenary queue!
That's because the premades did drive out the PUG's. I literally watched the PVP PUG players evaporate from the public queues as premades started farming them without end. The queues narrowed to virtually no PUG activity.
The above just won't happen -- there are far too many ships, players, and build permutations to even code any effective "auto-balancing." Ultimately team players have to be given their own queue, away from those who don't want premades in the same arena. There is nothing stopping a single PUG player from joining a Team queue either, so those PUG's interested in advancing towards team play can start joining the team queue instead of the PUG queue.
Either way, the STO player majority has spoken loud and clear, and the current PVP format has to change or follow the Betamax and Dodo into oblivion.