Yeah, a Cryptic employee, who shall remain un-named (so as not to discourage future visits), basically told us that the coding for PvP maps is some of the most complex in the game. I got the impression that the original devs didn't do a good job of notating their work for future devs to use as reference.
When asked why Respawn couldn't be added to existing maps, that is the answer we got.
An example that shows how cryptic hiding their technical problems leads to discontent is the pvp map situation. It should have been trivial to calm the pvp community be giving them a new pvp map (map, not game mode) every 3-6 months. Just take an empty map with a new background image, put a meaningless object in the middle and 6 transwarp gates in a circle and the map is complete. They did not do this although it sounds like an incredibly good idea to satisfy the basic wishes of that community and at the same time spend less than 10 minutes on designing the map.
I firmly believe that they are incapable to make such a map because their spawn point system (for dynamic spawn points based on factions) is beyond repair. This also explains why they cannot fix Kerrat (they tried during S2 or S3 testing and in the process they broke C&H spawnpoints on tribble for a day).
Modifying the obsurd amount of damage a tactical captain does while flying an escort in PVP is a great start. They are able to stack ALOT of + damage abilities which is part of the problem. If you don't think this is a balance issue, then you haven't been playing the game long enough. It used to be that cruisers were unstoppable, and battles lasted 10-15 minutes long. What was once Cruiser online, and then Science ship online, has been Escort online for well well over a year or two. I've learned to accept this though, as I don't see it changing. I come back here every season for a short while to test things out, then I leave. Perhaps it will change next summer for pvp.
Modifying the obsurd amount of damage a tactical captain does while flying an escort in PVP is a great start. They are able to stack ALOT of + damage abilities which is part of the problem. If you don't think this is a balance issue, then you haven't been playing the game long enough. It used to be that cruisers were unstoppable, and battles lasted 10-15 minutes long. What was once Cruiser online, and then Science ship online, has been Escort online for well well over a year or two. I've learned to accept this though, as I don't see it changing. I come back here every season for a short while to test things out, then I leave. Perhaps it will change next summer for pvp.
Yep, they sure can, but healing in this game is stronger.
Any ship can survive even the strongest Alpha Strike from the best TacScort pilots in the game. It is simply a matter of knowing how the game works. Usually, just a TacTeam and TSS1 or 2 are enough to accomplish this (when added to base resists like Emergency Power to Shields). You can also:
Turn to spread the damage over multiple facings
Hit RSP
Subspace Jump behind your attacker
Subnuke your attacker
Ask a friendly escort to remove the threat
Ask a friendly support ship to send resists your way
and so on...
Escorts aren't OP unless you don't know how to counter them.
edit: I fly Sci/Sci almost exclusively, and have for almost 3 years. Neutralizing escorts/BOPs is one of my favorite past-times. Of course, teamwork helps tremendously.
edit 2: in PvE you are correct, it is escorts online, there is no reason to fly anything else since it is nothing but a DPS race.
I still dont understand this perception that Tac in a escort is not suppossed to do damage and the New idea that straight pairing (Tac/escort Eng/cruiser Sci/science) is somehow wrong meaning that some wish to have better buffs for hybrids instead.
Frankly, Im starting to think I owe the Devs an apology.......
I still dont understand this perception that Tac in a escort is not suppossed to do damage and the New idea that straight pairing (Tac/escort Eng/cruiser Sci/science) is somehow wrong meaning that some wish to have better buffs for hybrids instead.
Frankly, Im starting to think I owe the Devs an apology.......
Yeah, it boggles the mind, doesn't it?
Some hybrid builds are viable, but that doesn't mean you will achieve your character's maximum potential in anything other than the ship it was designed for... Of course, the mere existence of ships like the Vesta points to the Devs giving in to the carebear crowd.
Modifying the obsurd amount of damage a tactical captain does while flying an escort in PVP is a great start. They are able to stack ALOT of + damage abilities which is part of the problem. If you don't think this is a balance issue, then you haven't been playing the game long enough. It used to be that cruisers were unstoppable, and battles lasted 10-15 minutes long. What was once Cruiser online, and then Science ship online, has been Escort online for well well over a year or two. I've learned to accept this though, as I don't see it changing. I come back here every season for a short while to test things out, then I leave. Perhaps it will change next summer for pvp.
healing and resistance, especially from a cruiser, can be maxed twice as high as an escorts ability to max spike damage. in a 1v1 situation, on a team good cross healing can make all the escort damage in the world useless. thats were sci ships come in, to disrupt that healing cycle and debuff someone to the point that they are kill able
Not true... since there are no changes being proposed to the already existing team queues, solo players can still join the same team queues without any restrictions. The new queue being proposed is for solo-players only, so just stay clear of them if you want to join your friends.
The only problem I see is when the friend DOESN'T want you tagging along, but that's outside the scope of this thread.
uhh... you were just saying that there would be 2 ques right? the "solo" pug and the "current".
how many random pairings of people do you think are going to go into the current que KNOWING that it is the only place premade teams are allowed to go?
this effectivly kills any team that wants to play unless its a full blown premade.
which in turn teaches you that pvp isnt about team work, its about "kirking it" and you know what.
pvp in this games is many things, Kirk it is not though.
if you have a hard time grasping that a game can have several different types of gameplay independant of each other.... well... maybe sto isnt for you.
uhh... you were just saying that there would be 2 ques right? the "solo" pug and the "current".
how many random pairings of people do you think are going to go into the current que KNOWING that it is the only place premade teams are allowed to go?
this effectivly kills any team that wants to play unless its a full blown premade.
which in turn teaches you that pvp isnt about team work, its about "kirking it" and you know what.
pvp in this games is many things, Kirk it is not though.
if you have a hard time grasping that a game can have several different types of gameplay independant of each other.... well... maybe sto isnt for you.
Premades are already routinely formed in the OPVP channel according to its advocates, so team PVP will continue on regardless of what happens to the public queues.
Those that don't mind playing vs. premades will gladly join the standard team queues, and those that don't like it will use the new queue. Either way, players can choose which format suits them so that everyone is happy. The only ones who lose out are premades who actively hunt PUG groups, and I see nothing wrong with this.
EDIT: If anything, the new queue should give non-PVP'ers a taste of PVP ship combat without getting focus-fired by a well organized team. As these new players get more confortable with PVP, they can advance to the regular team queues, possibly jumping into an OPVP organized group. Think of it as a PVP "kiddie pool" to get new players acclimated to basic ship to ship combat concepts.
Premades are already routinely formed in the OPVP channel according to its advocates, so team PVP will continue on regardless of what happens to the public queues.
that is not a premade, that is a pugmade. that is a big difference. and it doesnt mean the pugmade wants to go against the premades either. (hell i have a video ill be uploading tomrrow where a premade warps out on a pugmade)
Those that don't mind playing vs. premades will gladly join the standard team queues, and those that don't like it will use the new queue. Either way, players can choose which format suits them so that everyone is happy. The only ones who lose out are premades who actively hunt PUG groups, and I see nothing wrong with this.
so far i've only been seeing people wanting to get rid of team play so they can solo it, you'll understand then why i dont think when given the choice between matches against a premade or not against a premade there will be many people willingly going against premades.
EDIT: If anything, the new queue should give non-PVP'ers a taste of PVP ship combat without getting focus-fired by a well organized team. As these new players get more confortable with PVP, they can advance to the regular team queues, possibly jumping into an OPVP organized group. Think of it as a PVP "kiddie pool" to get new players acclimated to basic ship to ship combat concepts.
thats what open warzones need to do. and maybe introducing a tier'd que where once you are a part of so many wins you are automatically bumped up to the next tier? (obviously with this it would start everyone at 0) and maybe even have a monthly reset of it?
so far i've only been seeing people wanting to get rid of team play so they can solo it, you'll understand then why i dont think when given the choice between matches against a premade or not against a premade there will be many people willingly going against premades.
If you believe that people won't use a non-teamed PVP queue, then what's the harm in seeing it go live so that we can see what happens next?
If you think that people will abandon team play if given any other option, then why endorse a non-self-sustaining format?
thats what open warzones need to do. and maybe introducing a tier'd que where once you are a part of so many wins you are automatically bumped up to the next tier? (obviously with this it would start everyone at 0) and maybe even have a monthly reset of it?
I can agree with the above... any change is better than none.
and thats not a bad idea let teams that win vote to continue as a team instead of requeing and after so many times in que they get bumped into the team que
there are ways that a random que can work synergistic with a team que.
If you believe that people won't use a non-teamed PVP queue, then what's the harm in seeing it go live so that we can see what happens next?
If you think that people will abandon team play if given any other option, then why endorse a non-self-sustaining format?.
uhhhh because if it is inputted and it does fail then team pvp will be no more.
heres how i realisitcally imagine what would happen if the ques were split into a solo only and current setup-
first months,
"evil premades" no longer in the general que. people "flock" to the solo que. large increase in solo team players.
current que-
premades que as normal, poor groups of friends who have no idea what theyre getting into que, partial premades que, pugmades que.
about 2-3 months in-
team ques are empty except one premade team. rumor is told in the opvp that "so and so premade is on" so no other teams except those unlucky ones who arent a part of the opvp chat channel que. a match or 2 happens, other team gets stomped. they dont come back.
solo que population begins to die down after inital influx as all the previously team (premade people) are no single handidly carrying what ever team they are randomly put on. accusations of cheating and somehow getting a team through the solo que run amok.
months 3-4
pvp numbers are less then they were when it began.
that is what will realisitcly happen if this split que is put live.
Well, in the end, segregated queues don't exist. So the question remains, are you going to take your ball and go home? Or, are you going to learn teamwork and make a name for yourself in PvP?
My first few ventures into PvP were disastrous, and yes, I nearly gave up PvP entirely because of that fact. I couldn't comprehend why I was dying in seconds when I could take on any mob PvE could throw at me. Then I met one player who convinced me to keep trying and began to teach me the fundamentals of teamwork. Eventually, this player and I took other people under our wings and next thing I knew, we had our own team. We couldn't beat the top PvP teams in the game, but we held our own against many. Even then, we still had much to learn.
Sadly, that team didn't last long. Attrition caused by the Great Content Drought of 2011 reduced our numbers back down to 2. However, the 2 of us continued to work on our team play abilities. It got to the point where we could swing the balance in almost any PUG match, me in my sci ship and Horizon in his Defiant. This got us noticed, and we were both invited to Sad Pandas. That is when we really began to learn the game.
The point is, it takes time, effort and the willingness to set your own ego aside to become good at PvP. It is offensive to me, and I'm sure to other PvPers, that you expect the game to pander to you because you are unwilling to put the effort into becoming better team players. PvP, in any game, is the most difficult and challenging type of gameplay available, and is almost always biased to those who work as a team over solo players who are each trying to be the hero.
If you expect to be taken seriously, you can't come in here whining about losing to premades. That will never get you anywhere with this community. However, humbling yourself and coming in here to ask for advice on how to stop losing will get you not only our respect, but a sincere effort on our part to help you. Just ask those that have taken advantage of our knowledge and the resources we provide in these forums and in-game. Then ask them how their gameplay experience has changed.
It is better for us to have more players who know what they are doing. Most premades truly do not enjoy pugstomping (there are teams that do, but they are few and far between. They are also the easiest for a PUG team to beat). What we want is more people working together as a team to provide more of a challenge. Quite honestly, what we don't want is people with self-imposed limits on their own ability to play the game. They are the ones that truly ruin PUG matches. Premades and PUGmades aren't your brick wall, you are.
Now, are you going to do something about it, or are you going to continue to fail?
PS - in any game where teams and solo players are segregated in PvP, you still run into those teams that enjoy PUGstomping. They simply want to win, and when they fail to do so in the team queue they resort to sync-dropping themselves into the PUG queues. That is an unfortunate, but true fact. So there really is no escape.
uhhhh because if it is inputted and it does fail then team pvp will be no more.
heres how i realisitcally imagine what would happen if the ques were split into a solo only and current setup-
first months,
"evil premades" no longer in the general que. people "flock" to the solo que. large increase in solo team players.
current que-
premades que as normal, poor groups of friends who have no idea what theyre getting into que, partial premades que, pugmades que.
about 2-3 months in-
team ques are empty except one premade team. rumor is told in the opvp that "so and so premade is on" so no other teams except those unlucky ones who arent a part of the opvp chat channel que. a match or 2 happens, other team gets stomped. they dont come back.
solo que population begins to die down after inital influx as all the previously team (premade people) are no single handidly carrying what ever team they are randomly put on. accusations of cheating and somehow getting a team through the solo que run amok.
months 3-4
pvp numbers are less then they were when it began.
that is what will realisitcly happen if this split que is put live.
That is a fairly accurate synopsis of what happens, nearly universally, when games segregate teams from solo players.
Other than missing the extra step, how is that different from what's already happening? There's GOT to be PvP happening SOMEWHERE other than Ker'rat, but the ques are frequently a case of 5 on one side, 1 or 2 on the other, and those 1 or 2 leave after half an hour to an hour of waiting.
THAT is what I see more often than not, so who are those 5 people sitting there, while neer-enough on the other side are willing to que up?
I suspect PvP is happening, alright-in private matches, not the ques. I suspect this because people are still making videos and talking about how new things work, with combat logs to back it up.
it depends on your time zone as well,
private pvp is abused by a lot of people to far dil. which really sucks, but there are also a ton of afk'rs in the ques doing it too.
seperating the que's wont solve either of those problems.
Well, in the end, segregated queues don't exist. So the question remains, are you going to take your ball and go home? Or, are you going to learn teamwork and make a name for yourself in PvP?
Why should I? I mean - make myself a name? I know how to play in the team when I'm in my Star Cruiser and I know how to kill people in Ker'rat when I'm sitting in my Patrol Escort in it's duelist configuration. Or at least - I was when I was still playing endgame PvP, so few months ago, looong before S7 hit and killed STO for me. I knew how to keep myself alive in DSSV when it, in the shield healer configuration was still a viable choice.
I recent times I was having some fun hunting Klinks in Defiant and Akira on cmdr and cpt lvl Ker'rat, sadly not in queues, those alread are non-existent on this level.
I do not care about making myself a name. Before I quit I was spending total of 4 or so hours in the game weekly. Never had time or will to "make myself a name" and I was never into such things to begin with. All I expected from PvP was some fun. I don't get it and I won't get it in the current state of PvP. So I will take anything I can to at least try making PvP more alive.
Even if separate queues fail, then what's the deal? PvP will die? Why care, after all it will only speed up (and not by wide margin) the total collapse of PvP, not start it.
uhhhh because if it is inputted and it does fail then team pvp will be no more.
heres how i realisitcally imagine what would happen if the ques were split into a solo only and current setup-
first months,
"evil premades" no longer in the general que. people "flock" to the solo que. large increase in solo team players.
current que-
premades que as normal, poor groups of friends who have no idea what theyre getting into que, partial premades que, pugmades que.
about 2-3 months in-
team ques are empty except one premade team. rumor is told in the opvp that "so and so premade is on" so no other teams except those unlucky ones who arent a part of the opvp chat channel que. a match or 2 happens, other team gets stomped. they dont come back.
solo que population begins to die down after inital influx as all the previously team (premade people) are no single handidly carrying what ever team they are randomly put on. accusations of cheating and somehow getting a team through the solo que run amok.
months 3-4
pvp numbers are less then they were when it began.
that is what will realisitcly happen if this split que is put live.
Here's a compromise: How about opening up the solo queue as a special event, so that it is not live all the time, but up every few hours? This allows Cryptic and PVP'ers to accurately assess its impact before allowing it to go fully live.
Everybody should do what we feels it make him feel good and doing that doesn't hurt others.
I will continue to play C&H because i really enjoy it .
PVP arena I dont enjoy it .Probably i will play it as I do now ,from time to time, just to see what is new.
I won't team for PVP because i know how it is to be on the other side and i am not going to do to others what others did to me.If I ever will team with somebody it will be only against other knowingly team.
About PVP my opinion is the same: there should be at least 3 options not 2 as are now to join a game.
Somebody called it "junior".Nice thinking and more if it would be based on same skill counter (for example number of kills per account not character) it would be appealing to newcomers.(somebody else proposed that in a post)
New players will know that they will have to face something close to their strength not somebody who will "wipe the floor no farming for rep on any of my toons, with everyone" (as somebody else threatened in a above post).
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Well, in the end, segregated queues don't exist. So the question remains, are you going to take your ball and go home? Or, are you going to learn teamwork and make a name for yourself in PvP?
Not now, but separate solo queues remains a possible future upgrade. Two years ago I originally proposed new torpedo features like extended range or wide arc -- the latter actually became live on the Regent class earlier this year.
I'm all too familiar with team based PVP. As previously mentioned, I used to be in a competition ranked quake clan -- our team was good enough to come back and win even when reduced to 1 vs 5+ man scenarios. Yes, we used VOIP. Then I moved onto UT3, Guild Wars, GW2, and several other titles.
STO PVP is a blast, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with its team based PVP until you get a premade vs. full PUG scenario. Then there are AFK'ers....
My first few ventures into PvP were disastrous, and yes, I nearly gave up PvP entirely because of that fact. I couldn't comprehend why I was dying in seconds when I could take on any mob PvE could throw at me. Then I met one player who convinced me to keep trying and began to teach me the fundamentals of teamwork. Eventually, this player and I took other people under our wings and next thing I knew, we had our own team. We couldn't beat the top PvP teams in the game, but we held our own against many. Even then, we still had much to learn.
Sadly, that team didn't last long. Attrition caused by the Great Content Drought of 2011 reduced our numbers back down to 2. However, the 2 of us continued to work on our team play abilities. It got to the point where we could swing the balance in almost any PUG match, me in my sci ship and Horizon in his Defiant. This got us noticed, and we were both invited to Sad Pandas. That is when we really began to learn the game.
The point is, it takes time, effort and the willingness to set your own ego aside to become good at PvP. It is offensive to me, and I'm sure to other PvPers, that you expect the game to pander to you because you are unwilling to put the effort into becoming better team players. PvP, in any game, is the most difficult and challenging type of gameplay available, and is almost always biased to those who work as a team over solo players who are each trying to be the hero.
Perhaps my problem was that I came from a Quake background where people with crazy twitch skills could engage multiple targets and actually win consistently. I was accused of using an aim-bot many times, especially when I killed people mid-rocket-jump with a well-placed rail gun slug. Regardless, I recognize that STO space PVP is a different game (manual aiming skills are not present here), so none of the latter matters.
If you expect to be taken seriously, you can't come in here whining about losing to premades. That will never get you anywhere with this community. However, humbling yourself and coming in here to ask for advice on how to stop losing will get you not only our respect, but a sincere effort on our part to help you. Just ask those that have taken advantage of our knowledge and the resources we provide in these forums and in-game. Then ask them how their gameplay experience has changed.
Even if I did the above, would it sway your opinion on the present topic? This is not the first time the solo-queue idea has crossed these forums.
It is better for us to have more players who know what they are doing. Most premades truly do not enjoy pugstomping (there are teams that do, but they are few and far between. They are also the easiest for a PUG team to beat). What we want is more people working together as a team to provide more of a challenge. Quite honestly, what we don't want is people with self-imposed limits on their own ability to play the game. They are the ones that truly ruin PUG matches. Premades and PUGmades aren't your brick wall, you are.
Now, are you going to do something about it, or are you going to continue to fail?
PS - in any game where teams and solo players are segregated in PvP, you still run into those teams that enjoy PUGstomping. They simply want to win, and when they fail to do so in the team queue they resort to sync-dropping themselves into the PUG queues. That is an unfortunate, but true fact. So there really is no escape.
So who's making assumptions now?
As stated in my earlier posts, I come from a background of team based PVP games, so I've seen this all before. My clan mates and I regularly scrimmaged to keep our aim and dodging skills tuned. STO team play is quite different because personal aim skills do not matter, but the same attack, defense, coordination, and communication skills are present.
I am aware of at least one game that uses Solo vs. PUG vs. team queues -- it's on Steam, and it's called Global Agenda. That game is 30% PVE + 70% PVP, and does include territorial conquest. However, it has not experienced any team play collapse as predicted by so many in this forum because of the solo queue feature. If it can make the solo queue work, why can't STO?
The only thing limiting the solo queue idea is FUD. EDIT: We can only "guess" possible outcomes with this feature going live, but until it is given a chance, we are doing all of STO a dis-service by summarily dismissing it without testing first.
Of course, the mere existence of ships like the Vesta points to the Devs giving in to the carebear crowd.
I'm permantly boggled on many things in life.
I don't blaim the carebear crowd so much as a fanbase thats not consistant on how the ships should perform due to the "scripted for moment" performances that was often the case in the movies and shows.
Everybody expects thier favorite ship to be the best at whatever is needed at the time and thats not the case.
For example, look at this statement;
I agree that tac captains are overpowered - if and only if they are set into a tac ship, particularily in a cannon build. The synergies of tac boff powers, tac captain powers and a high base weapon damage are just too extreme. On the other hand, the balance of a tac in a cruiser seems fine. You could probably build around this somehow, by having all attack patterns share cooldowns across boffs and captain, or something like that.
Of course Tactical players have the best synergy in a Escort using cannons and thier Tac BOff powers.
Tacs are designed for Escorts, thats why they work so well in one.
Attack patterns already have a global cool down between them, with the Captain ability ApA being the exception as a players ability.
It all just sounds like bearded clam mentality over not being the best at all things and lamenting that fact as a flaw in the system when the true flaw is that only the tac is best at the "DPS race" designed missions in STO
I am aware of at least one game that uses Solo vs. PUG vs. team queues -- it's on Steam, and it's called Global Agenda. That game is 30% PVE + 70% PVP, and does include territorial conquest. However, it has not experienced any team play collapse as predicted by so many in this forum because of the solo queue feature. If it can make the solo queue work, why can't STO?
the reason sto cant, is because its 90% pve and 10% pvp. sto also currently not have teritorial anything.
next time use a game that is similar in player base to the game at hand.
The forgone conclusion of a solo queue completely killing off team PVP, without even so much as an intro-test, is simply absurd.
This man has a point!
Do you neigh sayers think new to pvp players should have to put up with getting pug stomped till they leave pvp for good or should they have a place to learn with lower risk of dealing with getting pug stomped
if you say they have to get pug stomped to learn then you have a problem that needs counseling ill contact Troi on your behalf.
you can't start newer players and bad players out at full speed against premades of any sort they need a que they can join away from you or they simply won't adopt pvp as "fun" they will see it as most see it now frustrating no chance at fairness.
pvp is going to die either way at least try this first.
I would welcome the addition of this type of queue. I do PvP a lot (75%+ of the time I'm on), and most of the time I do join with a fleetmate or two to PvP when they are on, and want to do PvP.
There are many times though, I join by myself, and I would welcome the fact that both sides are completely random (and would welcome cross faction teams along with it).
I would not agree with getting rid of any of the other queues though, and/or restricting premades to only fight premades. If they really want to do that, they can form their own challenge/league to do this. Note: I do understand that there are some premades that will join the current queues for the reason to stomp pugs, but for the most part, I don't think that is the case.
Do you neigh sayers think new to pvp players should have to put up with getting pug stomped till they leave pvp for good or should they have a place to learn with lower risk of dealing with getting pug stomped
if you say they have to get pug stomped to learn then you have a problem that needs counseling ill contact Troi on your behalf.
you can't start newer players and bad players out at full speed against premades of any sort they need a que they can join away from you or they simply won't adopt pvp as "fun" they will see it as most see it now frustrating no chance at fairness.
pvp is going to die either way at least try this first.
i think pug players need to learn that pvp is a team effort first and formost and that without having a team you will lose a lot easier.
i think pug players need to learn that pvp is a team effort first and formost and that without having a team you will lose a lot easier.
A pug is a team.
C'mon, look at STO. How many things actually require you put together the team beforehand? Getting accolades for other careers - putting together a fleet where the other folks will leave after you've done it?
You can level alone. You can PUG the various fleet actions. You can PUG STFs - even ESTFs. Folks PUG the queues.
STO's a very solo/PUG friendly game...outside of PvP.
Folks asking for there to be that option for PvP - is fitting in with the rest of the game.
Saying that if they run a premade with folks that play together often, build around each other, etc - that they may have more luck - well, that's no different than if they were to run premades for STFs, etc.
They don't have to run premades for STFs though. It feels off to say they need to run premades for PvP.
The PvP in STO's meaningless. Yes, there are a lot of folks with egos - that care about their reputations, being considered a "top guy" and all that - but outside of that recognition, there's nothing to the PvP. So for those that don't care about that recognition, well - it's just about having fun - casual PvP...what STO offers - just some pew pew fun every now and again.
For those that do care about the recognition - the reputation - well, um - nothing really comes of pugstomping. It's when those teams face each other, right? Hell, fighting against PUGs actually can dull the skills of the premades fighting them. Can get lazy - not really testing themselves - etc, etc, etc.
So one would think that both sides would actually want something - that reflects what they're looking for, no? The folks just looking for their casual PvP that matches the rest of the game. The folks looking to be "known" amongst the PvP community. It doesn't really look like either should want the current system... yet there seems to be a group that does.
Well, that calls into question why they want it that way...
Personally though, I do not believe there are enough folks to separate the queues in this manner. In a similar manner though, without such - I'm not sure there are ever going to be enough if they do not.
Is the end goal to get more folks into PvP? Then wouldn't it be a case of wanting to give people a welcoming taste of it? Let them get their feet wet? Have some fun? Then when they want more of it - more organized - etc, etc, etc - they move on to premades, hook up with a fleet into PvP, etc, etc, etc.
As is, they queue up - get stomped - maybe try it a couple more times to see if it's any different - and if it's not, they say effit - not only will they likely not participate in PvP, they may become antagonists to Cryptic doing anything to better PvP in the game. They'll have had such a horrible experience that they won't want Cryptic to do anything with PvP - they'd be perfectly happy to have Cryptic rip PvP out of the game...
...or you might have folks that have had bad experiences, suggesting ways that Cryptic could get more folks into PvP. They're not against PvP - they're just not taking it so seriously - it's something they enjoy doing from time to time or would enjoy doing from time to time.
With all the private matches being put together in OPvP, even the pugmades vs. pugmades for 10v10, etc, etc, etc matches - with the ability for folks to be able to throw together matches like that as is... what's the real deal with being opposed to having PUG friendly queues?
ahem... (bullhorn for the hearing impaired)I THINK THEY ALREADY KNOW THAT, THANKS!!!
(put Bullhorn away)
just like PvP is all about DPB+Tric spam, Danoob shuttles, the pre-balanced version of the T4 Omega shield passive, siphon drones, macros, SNB Doffs, the 'Cold' pulsewave, Abilities with no counter, spawncamping...
speaking of Spawncamping, I was on the "winning"(hah) side in ground tonight. I put this in quotes because 3 out of four on my team basically camped the spawn-hard. 30-1.
NOT a good game. IIRC, I think I was the only person on that 'team' who wasn't in that fleet.
I finally got a chance to see what it's like to be teamed with douchebags. If this happened more often, I think I'd give up on PvP completely-blindsided slaughters are NOT fun.
well thanks for yelling, now tell that to all the people that try to pvp and think they can solo it because they can in pve.
right, all those issue you listed... are not because there are premades in the game. thanks for point that out.
spawn camping happens in EVERY game there is a spawn point. (this doesnt mean its right of course, but if you solve this here it mightwork for other games.
well im sorry you got teamed with douchebags, maybe sometime join one of my pugmades when i toss one together?
They don't care, I think. Mai, Roach, the Big Panda guy - they are too afraid that if this does not work, they will have no one to play against as premade as there are not enough premades to have lot of organized matches and rest of PvPers will use solo queue.
And they are afraid that if it works, and people do start to PvP - they wont have anyone to play against because most players will use the "easy-mode" queues - searching for fun, not "pro" PvP.
So they will oppose such divide no matter if it has a chance to work or not.
BTW - if I remember ooold times and some DEV talking about changes to PvP: were they not proposing something like this. Completely random, no-teaming, cross-faction single queue?
Comments
Yep, they sure can, but healing in this game is stronger.
Any ship can survive even the strongest Alpha Strike from the best TacScort pilots in the game. It is simply a matter of knowing how the game works. Usually, just a TacTeam and TSS1 or 2 are enough to accomplish this (when added to base resists like Emergency Power to Shields). You can also:
Turn to spread the damage over multiple facings
Hit RSP
Subspace Jump behind your attacker
Subnuke your attacker
Ask a friendly escort to remove the threat
Ask a friendly support ship to send resists your way
and so on...
Escorts aren't OP unless you don't know how to counter them.
edit: I fly Sci/Sci almost exclusively, and have for almost 3 years. Neutralizing escorts/BOPs is one of my favorite past-times. Of course, teamwork helps tremendously.
edit 2: in PvE you are correct, it is escorts online, there is no reason to fly anything else since it is nothing but a DPS race.
Frankly, Im starting to think I owe the Devs an apology.......
R.I.P
Yeah, it boggles the mind, doesn't it?
Some hybrid builds are viable, but that doesn't mean you will achieve your character's maximum potential in anything other than the ship it was designed for... Of course, the mere existence of ships like the Vesta points to the Devs giving in to the carebear crowd.
healing and resistance, especially from a cruiser, can be maxed twice as high as an escorts ability to max spike damage. in a 1v1 situation, on a team good cross healing can make all the escort damage in the world useless. thats were sci ships come in, to disrupt that healing cycle and debuff someone to the point that they are kill able
uhh... you were just saying that there would be 2 ques right? the "solo" pug and the "current".
how many random pairings of people do you think are going to go into the current que KNOWING that it is the only place premade teams are allowed to go?
this effectivly kills any team that wants to play unless its a full blown premade.
which in turn teaches you that pvp isnt about team work, its about "kirking it" and you know what.
pvp in this games is many things, Kirk it is not though.
if you have a hard time grasping that a game can have several different types of gameplay independant of each other.... well... maybe sto isnt for you.
Do you even Science Bro?
Premades are already routinely formed in the OPVP channel according to its advocates, so team PVP will continue on regardless of what happens to the public queues.
Those that don't mind playing vs. premades will gladly join the standard team queues, and those that don't like it will use the new queue. Either way, players can choose which format suits them so that everyone is happy. The only ones who lose out are premades who actively hunt PUG groups, and I see nothing wrong with this.
EDIT: If anything, the new queue should give non-PVP'ers a taste of PVP ship combat without getting focus-fired by a well organized team. As these new players get more confortable with PVP, they can advance to the regular team queues, possibly jumping into an OPVP organized group. Think of it as a PVP "kiddie pool" to get new players acclimated to basic ship to ship combat concepts.
that is not a premade, that is a pugmade. that is a big difference. and it doesnt mean the pugmade wants to go against the premades either. (hell i have a video ill be uploading tomrrow where a premade warps out on a pugmade)
so far i've only been seeing people wanting to get rid of team play so they can solo it, you'll understand then why i dont think when given the choice between matches against a premade or not against a premade there will be many people willingly going against premades.
thats what open warzones need to do. and maybe introducing a tier'd que where once you are a part of so many wins you are automatically bumped up to the next tier? (obviously with this it would start everyone at 0) and maybe even have a monthly reset of it?
Do you even Science Bro?
If you believe that people won't use a non-teamed PVP queue, then what's the harm in seeing it go live so that we can see what happens next?
If you think that people will abandon team play if given any other option, then why endorse a non-self-sustaining format?
I can agree with the above... any change is better than none.
there are ways that a random que can work synergistic with a team que.
uhhhh because if it is inputted and it does fail then team pvp will be no more.
heres how i realisitcally imagine what would happen if the ques were split into a solo only and current setup-
first months,
"evil premades" no longer in the general que. people "flock" to the solo que. large increase in solo team players.
current que-
premades que as normal, poor groups of friends who have no idea what theyre getting into que, partial premades que, pugmades que.
about 2-3 months in-
team ques are empty except one premade team. rumor is told in the opvp that "so and so premade is on" so no other teams except those unlucky ones who arent a part of the opvp chat channel que. a match or 2 happens, other team gets stomped. they dont come back.
solo que population begins to die down after inital influx as all the previously team (premade people) are no single handidly carrying what ever team they are randomly put on. accusations of cheating and somehow getting a team through the solo que run amok.
months 3-4
pvp numbers are less then they were when it began.
that is what will realisitcly happen if this split que is put live.
Do you even Science Bro?
My first few ventures into PvP were disastrous, and yes, I nearly gave up PvP entirely because of that fact. I couldn't comprehend why I was dying in seconds when I could take on any mob PvE could throw at me. Then I met one player who convinced me to keep trying and began to teach me the fundamentals of teamwork. Eventually, this player and I took other people under our wings and next thing I knew, we had our own team. We couldn't beat the top PvP teams in the game, but we held our own against many. Even then, we still had much to learn.
Sadly, that team didn't last long. Attrition caused by the Great Content Drought of 2011 reduced our numbers back down to 2. However, the 2 of us continued to work on our team play abilities. It got to the point where we could swing the balance in almost any PUG match, me in my sci ship and Horizon in his Defiant. This got us noticed, and we were both invited to Sad Pandas. That is when we really began to learn the game.
The point is, it takes time, effort and the willingness to set your own ego aside to become good at PvP. It is offensive to me, and I'm sure to other PvPers, that you expect the game to pander to you because you are unwilling to put the effort into becoming better team players. PvP, in any game, is the most difficult and challenging type of gameplay available, and is almost always biased to those who work as a team over solo players who are each trying to be the hero.
If you expect to be taken seriously, you can't come in here whining about losing to premades. That will never get you anywhere with this community. However, humbling yourself and coming in here to ask for advice on how to stop losing will get you not only our respect, but a sincere effort on our part to help you. Just ask those that have taken advantage of our knowledge and the resources we provide in these forums and in-game. Then ask them how their gameplay experience has changed.
It is better for us to have more players who know what they are doing. Most premades truly do not enjoy pugstomping (there are teams that do, but they are few and far between. They are also the easiest for a PUG team to beat). What we want is more people working together as a team to provide more of a challenge. Quite honestly, what we don't want is people with self-imposed limits on their own ability to play the game. They are the ones that truly ruin PUG matches. Premades and PUGmades aren't your brick wall, you are.
Now, are you going to do something about it, or are you going to continue to fail?
PS - in any game where teams and solo players are segregated in PvP, you still run into those teams that enjoy PUGstomping. They simply want to win, and when they fail to do so in the team queue they resort to sync-dropping themselves into the PUG queues. That is an unfortunate, but true fact. So there really is no escape.
That is a fairly accurate synopsis of what happens, nearly universally, when games segregate teams from solo players.
it depends on your time zone as well,
private pvp is abused by a lot of people to far dil. which really sucks, but there are also a ton of afk'rs in the ques doing it too.
seperating the que's wont solve either of those problems.
Do you even Science Bro?
Why should I? I mean - make myself a name? I know how to play in the team when I'm in my Star Cruiser and I know how to kill people in Ker'rat when I'm sitting in my Patrol Escort in it's duelist configuration. Or at least - I was when I was still playing endgame PvP, so few months ago, looong before S7 hit and killed STO for me. I knew how to keep myself alive in DSSV when it, in the shield healer configuration was still a viable choice.
I recent times I was having some fun hunting Klinks in Defiant and Akira on cmdr and cpt lvl Ker'rat, sadly not in queues, those alread are non-existent on this level.
I do not care about making myself a name. Before I quit I was spending total of 4 or so hours in the game weekly. Never had time or will to "make myself a name" and I was never into such things to begin with. All I expected from PvP was some fun. I don't get it and I won't get it in the current state of PvP. So I will take anything I can to at least try making PvP more alive.
Even if separate queues fail, then what's the deal? PvP will die? Why care, after all it will only speed up (and not by wide margin) the total collapse of PvP, not start it.
Here's a compromise: How about opening up the solo queue as a special event, so that it is not live all the time, but up every few hours? This allows Cryptic and PVP'ers to accurately assess its impact before allowing it to go fully live.
I will continue to play C&H because i really enjoy it .
PVP arena I dont enjoy it .Probably i will play it as I do now ,from time to time, just to see what is new.
I won't team for PVP because i know how it is to be on the other side and i am not going to do to others what others did to me.If I ever will team with somebody it will be only against other knowingly team.
About PVP my opinion is the same: there should be at least 3 options not 2 as are now to join a game.
Somebody called it "junior".Nice thinking and more if it would be based on same skill counter (for example number of kills per account not character) it would be appealing to newcomers.(somebody else proposed that in a post)
New players will know that they will have to face something close to their strength not somebody who will "wipe the floor no farming for rep on any of my toons, with everyone" (as somebody else threatened in a above post).
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Not now, but separate solo queues remains a possible future upgrade. Two years ago I originally proposed new torpedo features like extended range or wide arc -- the latter actually became live on the Regent class earlier this year.
I'm all too familiar with team based PVP. As previously mentioned, I used to be in a competition ranked quake clan -- our team was good enough to come back and win even when reduced to 1 vs 5+ man scenarios. Yes, we used VOIP. Then I moved onto UT3, Guild Wars, GW2, and several other titles.
STO PVP is a blast, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with its team based PVP until you get a premade vs. full PUG scenario. Then there are AFK'ers....
Perhaps my problem was that I came from a Quake background where people with crazy twitch skills could engage multiple targets and actually win consistently. I was accused of using an aim-bot many times, especially when I killed people mid-rocket-jump with a well-placed rail gun slug. Regardless, I recognize that STO space PVP is a different game (manual aiming skills are not present here), so none of the latter matters.
Even if I did the above, would it sway your opinion on the present topic? This is not the first time the solo-queue idea has crossed these forums.
So who's making assumptions now?
As stated in my earlier posts, I come from a background of team based PVP games, so I've seen this all before. My clan mates and I regularly scrimmaged to keep our aim and dodging skills tuned. STO team play is quite different because personal aim skills do not matter, but the same attack, defense, coordination, and communication skills are present.
I am aware of at least one game that uses Solo vs. PUG vs. team queues -- it's on Steam, and it's called Global Agenda. That game is 30% PVE + 70% PVP, and does include territorial conquest. However, it has not experienced any team play collapse as predicted by so many in this forum because of the solo queue feature. If it can make the solo queue work, why can't STO?
The only thing limiting the solo queue idea is FUD. EDIT: We can only "guess" possible outcomes with this feature going live, but until it is given a chance, we are doing all of STO a dis-service by summarily dismissing it without testing first.
I'm permantly boggled on many things in life.
I don't blaim the carebear crowd so much as a fanbase thats not consistant on how the ships should perform due to the "scripted for moment" performances that was often the case in the movies and shows.
Everybody expects thier favorite ship to be the best at whatever is needed at the time and thats not the case.
For example, look at this statement;
Of course Tactical players have the best synergy in a Escort using cannons and thier Tac BOff powers.
Tacs are designed for Escorts, thats why they work so well in one.
Attack patterns already have a global cool down between them, with the Captain ability ApA being the exception as a players ability.
It all just sounds like bearded clam mentality over not being the best at all things and lamenting that fact as a flaw in the system when the true flaw is that only the tac is best at the "DPS race" designed missions in STO
R.I.P
the reason sto cant, is because its 90% pve and 10% pvp. sto also currently not have teritorial anything.
next time use a game that is similar in player base to the game at hand.
Do you even Science Bro?
...But it is a proof of concept
The forgone conclusion of a solo queue completely killing off team PVP, without even so much as an intro-test, is simply absurd.
This man has a point!
Do you neigh sayers think new to pvp players should have to put up with getting pug stomped till they leave pvp for good or should they have a place to learn with lower risk of dealing with getting pug stomped
if you say they have to get pug stomped to learn then you have a problem that needs counseling ill contact Troi on your behalf.
you can't start newer players and bad players out at full speed against premades of any sort they need a que they can join away from you or they simply won't adopt pvp as "fun" they will see it as most see it now frustrating no chance at fairness.
pvp is going to die either way at least try this first.
There are many times though, I join by myself, and I would welcome the fact that both sides are completely random (and would welcome cross faction teams along with it).
I would not agree with getting rid of any of the other queues though, and/or restricting premades to only fight premades. If they really want to do that, they can form their own challenge/league to do this. Note: I do understand that there are some premades that will join the current queues for the reason to stomp pugs, but for the most part, I don't think that is the case.
i think pug players need to learn that pvp is a team effort first and formost and that without having a team you will lose a lot easier.
Do you even Science Bro?
A pug is a team.
C'mon, look at STO. How many things actually require you put together the team beforehand? Getting accolades for other careers - putting together a fleet where the other folks will leave after you've done it?
You can level alone. You can PUG the various fleet actions. You can PUG STFs - even ESTFs. Folks PUG the queues.
STO's a very solo/PUG friendly game...outside of PvP.
Folks asking for there to be that option for PvP - is fitting in with the rest of the game.
Saying that if they run a premade with folks that play together often, build around each other, etc - that they may have more luck - well, that's no different than if they were to run premades for STFs, etc.
They don't have to run premades for STFs though. It feels off to say they need to run premades for PvP.
The PvP in STO's meaningless. Yes, there are a lot of folks with egos - that care about their reputations, being considered a "top guy" and all that - but outside of that recognition, there's nothing to the PvP. So for those that don't care about that recognition, well - it's just about having fun - casual PvP...what STO offers - just some pew pew fun every now and again.
For those that do care about the recognition - the reputation - well, um - nothing really comes of pugstomping. It's when those teams face each other, right? Hell, fighting against PUGs actually can dull the skills of the premades fighting them. Can get lazy - not really testing themselves - etc, etc, etc.
So one would think that both sides would actually want something - that reflects what they're looking for, no? The folks just looking for their casual PvP that matches the rest of the game. The folks looking to be "known" amongst the PvP community. It doesn't really look like either should want the current system... yet there seems to be a group that does.
Well, that calls into question why they want it that way...
Personally though, I do not believe there are enough folks to separate the queues in this manner. In a similar manner though, without such - I'm not sure there are ever going to be enough if they do not.
Is the end goal to get more folks into PvP? Then wouldn't it be a case of wanting to give people a welcoming taste of it? Let them get their feet wet? Have some fun? Then when they want more of it - more organized - etc, etc, etc - they move on to premades, hook up with a fleet into PvP, etc, etc, etc.
As is, they queue up - get stomped - maybe try it a couple more times to see if it's any different - and if it's not, they say effit - not only will they likely not participate in PvP, they may become antagonists to Cryptic doing anything to better PvP in the game. They'll have had such a horrible experience that they won't want Cryptic to do anything with PvP - they'd be perfectly happy to have Cryptic rip PvP out of the game...
...or you might have folks that have had bad experiences, suggesting ways that Cryptic could get more folks into PvP. They're not against PvP - they're just not taking it so seriously - it's something they enjoy doing from time to time or would enjoy doing from time to time.
With all the private matches being put together in OPvP, even the pugmades vs. pugmades for 10v10, etc, etc, etc matches - with the ability for folks to be able to throw together matches like that as is... what's the real deal with being opposed to having PUG friendly queues?
well thanks for yelling, now tell that to all the people that try to pvp and think they can solo it because they can in pve.
right, all those issue you listed... are not because there are premades in the game. thanks for point that out.
spawn camping happens in EVERY game there is a spawn point. (this doesnt mean its right of course, but if you solve this here it mightwork for other games.
well im sorry you got teamed with douchebags, maybe sometime join one of my pugmades when i toss one together?
Do you even Science Bro?
And they are afraid that if it works, and people do start to PvP - they wont have anyone to play against because most players will use the "easy-mode" queues - searching for fun, not "pro" PvP.
So they will oppose such divide no matter if it has a chance to work or not.
BTW - if I remember ooold times and some DEV talking about changes to PvP: were they not proposing something like this. Completely random, no-teaming, cross-faction single queue?